History will paint Biden very kindly. This speech will be the example of a humble, good man.
This is like calling a school bus driver a hero because at the last possible second he hit the brakes instead of intentionally driving the bus off a cliff.
It's good he stepped aside, but he waited till pretty much the last second and clearly didn't want to hit the brakes.
In that analogy, the heroes are all the people that got him to hit the brakes.
I didn't call him a hero, though, I called him humble and good. In your zeal to urinate on corn flakes, you forgot basic reading skills.
Good for being complicit in the Genocide of Palestinians?
Good for stepping down for the sake of his country. Not good enough for certain internet pundits, but I think he'll get over that.
If he's "humble and good" he'd have stepped down a year ago so voters could have a real primary and not a coronation.
Before doubling down, it might be wise to know what you are doubling down on. Aggressive foolishness is still foolishness.
i remember when my debate strategy was yelling and stomping my feet. then i stopped being a toddler
And that's a good thing. It's better to figure it out before you Clinton yourself into the history books.
What does that even mean?
It sounds like you're just trying to make an insult that won't get removed for being an insult...
That's an interesting analogy because objectively the bus driver is a hero for stopping a bus full of kids hurtling off a cliff.
It's a poor analogy because there's no one on the bus trying to grab the wheel and hit the gas by force.
This ain't the movie Speed?
If he wasn't the one flooring it headed right to the cliff...
And if he didn't take months of people telling him to hit the brakes while he screamed back only "Lord God" can stop the bus
Absolutely nothing was stopping him from remaining in the race until the convention and becoming the official nominee. That was a viable path forward, if he had wanted to choose it. That he did not, deserves acknowledgement and respect.
I agree in principle with what you're saying.
However, a sitting president is not entitled to the nomination. It's happened before where a sitting president is denied a nomination for a second term, and it's been given to someone else in the party instead.
If it had gone that way with Biden though, I think the optics would have been so bad that there would be no hopes of salvaging the election though, so it's still praiseworthy that he dropped.
He was not going to be the nominee due to being the sitting president. He was going to be the nominee due to defeating his main rival "uncommitted" in the primaries, along with Rep. Dean Philips and Marianne Williamson.
while technically true, had uncommited gotten more than 2 weeks to campaign and made it onto every ballot, the dems might not have had to modify the ticket this late.
Yeah, I think there's not nearly enough single-issue Palestine voters to make that happen. Also, it was a write-in campaign, it was never "on" a ballot anywhere.
"uncommitted" / "no preference" were explicitly on some state ballots and palestine is a bigger culminating issue than people give credit for. "none of the above" running a distant, but meaningful, second is not encouraging.
regardless of your thoughts on biden in 2020, a diminished biden was a disaster for the Democrats and (potentially) the country in 2024.
No, not really. Single issue voters are fairly unusual in the dem party. There are always some, no question, but the very small size of the peace protests compared to those during, say, the Vietnam War era demonstrates a fairly niche issue imo. While most dems believe in peace for Palestine, relatively few would rank it among their top issues.
Regarding Biden's diminishment, delegation is the most important skill a leader can possess. It is not a leaders responsibility to make all the decisions, but to organize and provide vision for a group of people that can accomplish far more than any individual. Many people past their youth understand this, due to direct life experience in the broader world. Biden's diminishment would have had minimal impact on his actual presidency. At the polls, however, yes it definitely was a concern, eventually leading to him dropping out after all. The idea he actually could not win was very, very overblown though. He was still in the running. I think the broader concern was his impact on down-ballot races.
Regarding uncommitted actually being on some ballots, it seems you're right. Thank you for the correction, that's actually sort of funny. lol
thanks for the good convo. ignoring any other problems (including palestine being much more than just "single issue")
He was still in the running. I think the broader concern was his impact on down-ballot races.
given the importance of controlling as many branches as possible to make the vitally important needed changes... isnt that innately disqualifying?
No, not to a more traditionally-minded dem. You could say that's a mistaken thought, that's my opinion personally. But it reminds me of a democratic leader reportedly saying he was resigning himself to a Trump presidency. It's common among dems to play with "honor" so much they lose, the much-debated "they go low, we go high" philosophy.
Delegates are bound to support in all good conscience the person for whom their primaries results reflect.
This bizzare turn of phrase has been largely been untested in the courts... But if, in good conscience, the delegates believe that the results of the primary were for the candidate who was best poised to defeat Trump (as in, they're not supporting Biden specifically as much as they are against Trump, for example) then they could argue that based on events that have occured since the primaries that they are in good conscience representing those wishes.
So, I dunno. I'm very glad Biden took the high road here, but I am unconvinced that this was truely set in stone. This is the exact justification for having delegates choose the nominee in the first place; that in certain critical conditions they can act in good faith.
I think that would be an extremely minority opinion far outside of the moderate dem mainstream. Since the electors get specifically chosen by the winning campaign, expecting some kind of broad revolt out of them is very wishful thinking.
Additionally, Biden was polling very close to Trump during a time when dems have been outperforming polls in our recent elections. Someone would have to be fairly ignorant of the actual voting results of recent races to actually think Biden genuinely had no chance. I do not think very many chosen delegates are ignorant of these election results, unlike more casually-engaged citizens online.
He could have shrugged it off like RBG did and fuck everyone for generations. Better late than never.
Better late than never.
Obviously.
But if a guy has a gun next to your head and ends up not pulling the trigger, are you gonna talk about how good your kidnapper was?
You still got kidnapped, and you still had a gun to your head.
Why thank the person who caused the problem and not the hostage negotiaters who got you released?
Maybe the timing was to ensure an albatross like JD was firmly tied around his neck.
So you think Biden and the DNC colluded and he always meant to stand down?
He just waited until there wasn't enough time for a primary so Kamala could get it?
Don't get me wrong, she's got a better shot than Joe. But if you legitimately think they planned this timing...
That's not a good look.
Especially for voters in NH who had their primary delegates stolen.
Or he waited until the Trump campaign sunk millions of dollars into a strategy that has now been completely subverted and which they have no real way out of without a massive pivot like dropping Trump which isn't going to happen. If that's the case, I'd call it a pretty savvy move.
But that still took the decision of who the nominee should be out of the hands of voters.
If by that you mean "they followed the same standard procedure that's been in place for the entire history of the United States" then yes, exactly.
I don't think the timing was planned in advance.
But I think he was getting tired, probably had enough commitments for support to Kamala (he probably gave everybody who demanded he steps down an ultimatum, support her or he stays), and decided there wasn't going to be a better time to do it. Seems like he was right
“You know, in recent weeks it’s become clear to me that I need to unite my party in this critical endeavor. I believe my record as president, my leadership in the world, my vision for America’s future all merited a second term,” Biden said. “But nothing, nothing can come in the way of saving our democracy. That includes personal ambition. So, I’ve decided the best way forward is to pass the torch to a new generation. It’s the best way to unite our nation.”
It's mind boggling the "new generation" to pass the torch to is nearly 60.
i would vote for a geriatric chimpanzee in a coma over trump
It's sad that is clearly the right decision though.
i would vote for a magic 8 ball over trump
It would probably be right more often than tRump! But -1 for lack of opposable thumbs.
Hot take: 60 is a perfect age. It's when most people (especially lawyers) have a ton of experience, but are mentally just as sharp as 30 year olds. In ancient human societies she'd be "an elder" in charge.
There's a ton of trolls in here who can't celebrate anything good while anything bad is happening. Yes, his response to the genocide in Israel was abysmal. I have no illusions that the right would have done any better, and in fact believe Trump would have thrown more fuel on it. I'm ecstatic that Biden is not running again so that maybe Kamala can finally fucking do something about it. But I think we can take five seconds to admit that he did a lot of good for our country in other ways and made the right call here in dropping out.
For those who won't budge:
There's literally no winning, huh? Any flaw or misstep is enough to complain about and use as a reason to abstain or be an accelerationist. Y'all will claim Biden and Dems are monsters for their flaws. All that does is hurt the sane side of our government and make the actual fascists who have done so much worse have a better chance at taking over.
Can y'all please pleaseplease not let perfect be the enemy of good for once in your miserable life? This thinking is what brought us Trump in the first place, and while I can agree we need to do better, start at the local level, because only caring when we're on another brinkmanship presidential race makes you look like short-sighted toddlers.
it's pretty telling that, for all the biden bashing and accusations of "you support genocide!!!" in this thread, i see very few concrete actionable suggestions from those people about what everyone should be doing right now. beyond "sToP sAyInG gOoD tHiNgS aBoUt BiDeN"
LOL
no.
Look, all these posts from accounts on lemmygrad, chapotraphouse members, lemmy.ml…they’re all bullshit. I’m convinced that they are entirely Russian trolls. There is no making them happy with slightly left of center. It seems they’ll never be happy until America has been destroyed. There is no point to placating them or even acknowledging their existence.
The “genocide Joe” moniker was particularly stupid. Do you really think Joe Biden was going to single handedly denounce Israel and kill off a key strategic alliance because of a few extremists? It is a completely silly notion.
they’ll never be happy until America has been destroyed
it's important to slap down the nonsense and call out the bullshit at every opportunity. they're coming out of the woodwork to harass and manipulate everyone into second guessing themselves, for the sole purpose of getting trump into the white house.
fuck that shit.
The problem is this isn't true. I hate Biden but I despise the way Trump makes him look decent comparatively. How long can keep running slightly worse candidates compared to your previous one (hopefully Harris bucks this trend)?
People who call out Biden get called single issue voters; by people who's only concern is Trump doesn't get elected. They are ignoring absymal healthcare, terrible foreign policy, horrible housing prices, costly food bills, even the stable finicial sector is now losing jobs due to the AI craze.
I understand why people are worried about Trump. Still, we need candidates who actually want to run the country correctly and not just cater to the rich. We cannot sacrifice everything because the news makes Trump to be all powerful.
harass and manipulate everyone into second guessing themselves, for the sole purpose of getting trump into the white house.
You are gas lighting. We need to start caling this everytime we see it. Otherwise, you would bother people on Truth Social and Twitter (or even reddit which actually has a population that could matter in a national election) if you wanted people to stop voting for Trump. But that would make too much sense.
Gaslighting? What?
You’re never going to get the perfect candidate until we reform elections (ranked choice, more parties, get rid of citizens united).
Gaslighting is a colloquialism, defined as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality. - Wikipedia
You cannot blame us for not liking Biden when he does not cater to us. We are not the problem, even if you manage to phrase the issue to make it seem we are at fault.
You’re never going to get the perfect candidate until we reform elections (ranked choice, more parties, get rid of citizens united).
Absolutely keep voting the most liberal Congress people you can. But let's not kid ourselves: you have to vote for the people who want reform election to get reform election - and Biden isn't one of those people.
Edit: extended last sentence to make it make more sense
Is Trump?
Trump is a distraction. He's a tool to compromise values and pretend we have a common goal. Yelling at Biden accomplished more already than fearing Trump.
I’m asking you directly: is Trump a better vehicle to achieve these goals?
Absolutely not. I don't want him to win. The original person I replied to stated that those who hate Biden secretly want Trump to win. Which is false. It's an outright lie. I'm over this game of OMG McCain, Romney, Trump, etc. may win so compromise your values and slowly let this country rot or risk everything collapsing.
Nothing happens overnight in government. It’s a huge ship to turn. If you want progress, vote for the party that aligns closest with your goals. Otherwise you’re simply whining.
Whining made Biden go away. Guess, it's only okay to complain about Biden if you're as famous as John Stewart.
The only thing these parties eat is votes. It's time they work harder for them. Fearing their opposition makes them lazy.
Leaving aside the actual political substance of your comment. Don't you think it's a bit... Head in the sand to assume anyone who disagrees with you is some "Russian troll"? I know we all exist in social media bubbles, myself included, but my social circles and my online circles all share "radical" concerns about the administration and country in general but it generally comes from a genuine desire for our politicians and therefore country to be and do better. We're all Americans just like (I presume) you.
I joined lemmy.ml cause of the FOSS stuff but I'm learning it comes with a reputation I didn't know about.
In my childhood (in Russia) I'd talk this way about Russia. So they might be real.
I just (EDIT: later) realized later that many of the good things around me are too, well, not from Mars.
And that many of the bad things around me are absolutely not specific to Russia or ex-USSR.
And that one thing absolutely right is scolding all you don't like and not bowing your head, because when you accept fools and their foolery because of some false "lesser evil", you lose.
Not all of them are trolls. Shit, I've met tankies more libertarian that a lot of people "not interested in politics", because the norm for that grey mass has shifted to a really dark place.
Trump essentially said he would just let Israel “finish the job”. So yeah, throwing fuel on it is exactly what he would have done. Turned Israel loose.
Finding a reason to permanently write somebody off as bad is the way of the sith conservatives.
There’s a ton of trolls in here who can’t celebrate anything good while anything bad is happening.
The spectacle of the presidential election has diverted a lot of attention away from the genocide in Palestine, the upswell in COVID infections and deaths nationally, and the decaying domestic infrastructure driven by climate change. Biden's retirement isn't changing any of that.
There’s literally no winning, huh?
Kamala's been the heir designate to the party for less than a week and she's already writing condemnation letters aimed at Palestinian Rights protesters in DC. Its a grim state of affairs, particularly with the police violence on student campuses still fresh in people's minds.
Can y’all please please please not let perfect be the enemy of good
We're waiting for some good. So far, we've had a bumper crop of cutesy memes and a bit of relief from the deeply depressing poll numbers that signaled Trump would receive a free ride into the White House in November. But we're still waiting for a candidate to put more on the table than her famous "$20k in relief for a Pell Grant Recipient who runs a business in a disadvantaged community for at least three years".
Not everyone is happy to open their wallets and bust out the walking shoes for just any generic liberal candidate.
I cannot wrap my mind around this level of privilege. In all honesty I really can't. I don't think there's a thing I could do to change your opinion and this nugget:
Not everyone is happy to open their wallets and bust out the walking shoes for just any generic liberal candidate.
Suggests you or others with your opinions won't vote because... she's generic? Or didn't do enough yet? And claiming that Biden dropping out won't end the genocide, so let's not see it as positive?
What saint would you prefer we vote in? Can you explain how they are both morally spotlessly pure AND have a snowball's chance in hell? If you're convincing enough, maybe that second coming of Jesus will lead us to a utopia. /s
Some of us are not in the position of being able to use a foreign tragedy as our stopping block. Some of us have our rights and safety on the line.
I cannot wrap my mind around this level of privilege.
Folks on Lemmy think this entire election revolves around them.
This is the biggest self-own, wow.
I just stole this and it’s already relevant
If stopping genocide is your biggest issue, I suggest going to rail against in it right-wing spaces instead. There's a lot more pro-genocide to stop there.
rail against in it right-wing spaces instead
If you're defending a genocidal administration, you're a right-winger.
At first, I was pissed that he didn't bow out two months ago.
Now I have nothing but respect for the man. He realized when to step aside and let his partner take the reign, and did so with effective enough timing to throw a massive wrench into the republicans' plans.
If Kamala wins, history will see him as the kind elder statesman who knew when to step aside for the good of the country.
John Adams is the first American president to make unpopular decision and did not let ego rule him, despite losing him the election. Americans were baying for blood to go to war against the French in 1799 but Adams refused, knowing that America will lose if he declared war. It cost him his re-election, but he did the right thing.
Edit: wrong year
John Adams is the first American president to make unpopular decision
Nobody tell this guy about the Whiskey Rebellion.
Couldn't agree more and his words on the matter were really touching.
I just hope the party as a whole can keep this up. I have never felt like the party cared more about being in touch with the people than it does now.
I do agree, but also in 4-8 years I’d like an actual competitive primary. Like the kind Obama won
If Trump wins, history will remember Biden as "the antichrist, bringer of despair, slow witted grim reaper, sad."*
*This antiwoke curriculum is approved by the council of Gilead.
Biden got forced out by his donors and other Democrats (establishment ones surprisingly). He would have kept running if he could.
honest question, are you guys making any headway outside of hexbear and lemmygrad? i mean i'm sure everyone loves you in your safe space, but you have to know your "vote josevlad marxtalin 2024!!!" stance is pretty laughable out in the world
You can't .ml Biden committing Genocide away no matter how hard you try.
So, serious question: Do you only step up to defend other countries, or are the people in the U.S., where I assume you live, also on the agenda for the evening? Cause yeah, Genocide is pretty shit. Evil even.
What about the black communities?
Homeless?
Native American?
Disabled?
Veterans?
Children?
And the larger issue of fucking fascism that leads to precisely what you're so stuck yelling about blindly?
Here's what I think: Most of you are parrots. Actual sentient wagons transformed into people. Many of you don't have many details, you kneejerk on issues that cannot be approached from any other angle than "Yeah, of course I agree" and challenge everyone who doesn't immediately bow with "YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!" as if you're the seagulls from Finding Nemo. Now maybe I'm wrong. Maybe YOU stand more often. If so, why stand with the crowd who will move on when the next big thing happens?
Never, EVER, remove support for the greater good when the greater evil guarantees more suffering. Otherwise all you're doing is becoming a part of the problem.
You can look at their history and see that since October they've basically commented or posted about anything else. It's several times a day they are canvassing for "Palestine" ie. Trump.
Of course i do. Which is why I will never support someone complicit in Genocide. Unlike the people enabling Fascism.
Your track record seems to have zero criticism of Republicans, when we know Trump would be far worse in supporting Israeli warcrimes. Just this once, can you come out and say that Trump would actually be worse for the one topic you ever seem to discuss?
Your track record seems to be making shit up and hoping nobody will ever fact check it.
Your track record seems to be personal attacks whenever someone asks you to provide substantial proof that can be fact checked and cross-referenced. You'll submit articles that agree specifically with your take and call anyone who challenges it with information liars or claim they don't know what they're talking about. You don't challenge people with logic, you challenge them with emotion, and chances are you're angry because it feels as if everyone else is wrong and no one listens.
Very stoic in your support for Genocide I see. So cool and manly.
calling me pro-genocide doesn't make it so. no matter how hard you try.
So you don't support Joe Biden who is complicit in Genocide?
lol biden's not running dude. but yes, i was going to vote for him.
and no, you're not going to get me to concede that i "support genocide." ever. we CAN condemn some of an individual's actions while still voting for them, because that's the best (if not ONLY) path to progress
are you this exhausting in real life? does it actually get you anywhere? because it's not working here.
Genocide is where people with morals draw a red line but i guess Bidens 'red lines' match his voters.
LOL dude in 20+ comments of you saying gEnOcIdEJOe!!!!!! UrAgEnoCiDeR!!!! you haven't offered a name of a single candidate whom everyone should be supporting instead OR suggested a single course of action that everyone should be taking to make progress on the problem
i'm honestly glad you haven't been deleted for trolling, because this has been hilarious. tell your comrades you've completed your mission. no one in here is voting for joe
Hmm but Extra Militant Joffrey can lay the actions of Israel all at the feet of the POTUS as though he were directly responsible, even though a second grader would easily understand that makes no sense.
Stop pretending that decades of financial support are new. They aren't. We all know that, and your canvassing just makes you look like a liar.
Are you denying that you have zero geopolitical experience whatsoever? Because unless you do, you have no fucking clue what Biden's options even are, being that you're a one note armchair political scientist without the ability to even acknowledge the most basic of realities surrounding the situation.
You obsessively post about this issue several times every day to the point that it would be weird even if you yourself were both a Palestinian and also have hard evidence that Biden himself pulled the trigger every single time someone died.
Your obsession here is beyond strange, and it makes it impossible for anyone observing to think something weird isn't going on with you
It's so fascinating that you simultaneously think that people can't possibly know anything about politics if they don't have geopolitical experience, and yet you can be absolutely certain that there is no way biden could be guilty of killing Palestinians unless he is personally executing them. Your self contradictions are so blatant, but you seem to still be completely blind to them. When you grow up, you will look back on this version of yourself as so childish.
Yeah it's super hard logic but bare with me. We have supported Israel since its inception. As outsiders, we don't really understand the impact of pulling funding. There you have it, you have no fucking clue. I know, that was really challenging to understand. But you can do it, provided you stop working for Vladimir for a moment.
you can be absolutely certain that there is no way biden could be guilty of killing Palestinians unless he is personally executing them
Yeah given that we have no evidence to suggest that he personally did anything, and we also know that Israel has already been receiving funding since always, I have no reason to be sure of fuck-all that you would suggest. In fact you've given piles of reasons to discard your every single word.
So are you changing your story from biden is innocent to biden may be innocent or may be guilty, and you have no way of knowing?
In the same way that the head of secret service just got fired for the assassination attempt, the person in charge of the country is responsible when millions of tax dollars go to fund an ongoing genocide. That's just how it works. The leader is responsible for what the group does. Especially when the leader is crucial in directing funds.
I'm changing jackshit, scumbag who literally last night claimed that trump bombed zero people until it was proven that was a lie and then denied they ever said that. Leave this platform. Pro-Trump russian trolls are not welcome here.
I fixed my own slight mistake. It is absolutely true that Trump played almost no part in any wars, he definetly did not facilitate a genocide. The fact that you are clinging to this is very telling. You are acting like someone who punched someone in the face is as bad as a serial killer. There actually are arguments that you could have, but you don't even know what they are. All you know is you are supposed to dislike trump, you haven't the slightest idea why, and you have the fact that you are supposed to like the guy who won't stop genociding. You are confused and angry. It's a bit sad.
Why respect a Genocidal maniac for stepping down only when forced to do so?
Because the alternative is they don't step down.
Except no, that's not the alternative. The party gets to choose the candidate. Biden tried to stay and they told him to get out the easy or the hard way.
You must have forgotten Biden not holding a primary.
What's "the hard way"?
They openly ditch him during the convention.
Donors already pulled out. Establishment called for him to step down voluntarily. if he doesn't listen he doesn't magically get to stay.
You don't know the (binding!) DNC rules? He had the delegates committed to him and couldn't have been forced out. And he didn't want to quit. It was a pressure campaign to make him look out of control, and he's always been better at negotiating behind closed doors than he is at PR so he couldn't fight back effectively. Pretty much a chicken race to see who backs down first.
From the timing of everything going on I suspect that with the combination of the media campaign, backstabbing in the party, him being sick x2 and tired, and finally a Republican convention and VP pick being newsworthily weird (and probably also with some commitments from others to back Kamala if he stepped down) I bet he thought there wouldn't be any better opportunity to do it.
(I was expecting the switch to end in chaos, somehow for once DNC managed to do something coordinated, DESPITE many donors also wanting to ditch Kamala)
I certainly hope Kamala will be harsher against Netanyahu and back the ICC rulings
If you think Biden could've been forced out if he wasn't willing to step down then you don't know anything about politics.
I bet you were one of those people demanding the sergeant at arms arrest people who ignored subpoenas during Trump's first impeachment.
Do you understand how the president is picked? They need delegates to run.
Do you know how Democrat canidates are picked? Biden already had enough pledged delegates to win the nomination.
Not holding a primary before the Democratic National Conventionis one way to try to coup it, but they could still just put in someone else in.
They did hold a primary. You might have not liked how they ran it. I had my own issues with it as well, but they did and once those votes are in the pledged delegates have to honor the winner from it, which Biden was. Tell me how they could have just taken it away from him without him stepping down again?
Biden pretended he was going to be a 1 term president but now tried to hijack it for a dual term.
Biden could give an official order to have anyone speaking out against him shot. Doesn't mean he will. But he can. Same goes for the voting honor system. We're just expecting nobody to break the unwritten rules. but unwritten rules that will get broken when needed.
Like how the white house will straight up lie about a Genocide being committed in order to violate Leahy law.
Not to mention he's basically been given the green light by SCOTUS to eliminate the opposition. He's been given supreme executive power and is choosing not to exercise it.
"Defending Democracy"
lmao
What’s funny?
No one voted for Harris. She was just... selected. Without a single vote. Democrats.. spouting Democracy. fkin lol.
Her name was on the ballot in 2020, everyone who voted for Biden also voted for Harris.
You appear to be conservative, so here is the best online course I could find to teach you about the U.S. Constitution:
Fuck off Joe, you're slightly better than Hillary because you did eventually listen to reason.
But he should have said years ago he wasn't going to run in 2024.
Hell, even if he just said it 6 months ago we could have had a real primary
It's good he finally did the right thing, but he came damn close to not. He's not a hero because he stopped doing the wrong thing at the last possible second. A week ago he wouldn't stop rambling about "Lord God" was the only one that could make him drop
Dude is off the deep already, and has been for a while.
nah. i won't call him a "hero" but this is the best way it could have happened, rather than republicans having YEARS to foment hatred and spin conspiracy theories and make everyone waste time debunking lie after lie about harris.
and nobody's going to switch from D to R because it's harris instead of biden. you can be fairly certain, however, that there WILL be people voting who weren't going to vote at all when it was biden instead of harris
should he be applauded? yes. is he a hero? no. should he have announced it years ago? no fucking way.
That's a really awful take. It's good that Biden has stepped aside but our lack of a primary absolutely isn't "a good thing". Primaries are how we battle test our candidates and Harris has never performed well in one. I hope to hell she wins but I'd have more confidence if she'd been able to secure the nomination through traditional means.
Well, she didn't do well in her presidential primary, no argument there. But she did do well enough in her primaries for AG and Senator for California to win not only those nominations but those elections, too.
who do you think would have won (or should have won) this hypothetical primary that was "stolen" from us?
I don't have a fucking clue because we never got to have one.
funny how no one started whining about it until just now.
what might have happened, i wonder, if all the hissy fits were thrown back then, instead of AFTER biden stepped down (thanks to hissy fits)?
don't answer. that was a rhetorical question. congratulations, you have been successful in your mission to poopooh biden and make me not vote for him.
LOL
I don't know where you've been but I've been bitching about this for the past six months. I absolutely loathe the fact that we don't have a real primary when we have an incumbent president and I was really disappointed when Biden changed his tune from being a one term president. I also really appreciate what Biden did do in office even though I thought he'd be an awful president during the last election!
Thanks for making so many assumptions about me though, I'll be sure to mulch my garden with all these strawmen you set up.
Oh and you better fucking vote, don't even think about sitting out the election - it's cowardly and immature!
i stand corrected. however, "dems stole your primary" is already a favorite of republicans, not to affect meaningful change, but to make people vote for anything except D. so sorry to say, you're in for more of that
No worries. I know it's easy to generalize about other people on the internet and, if you spent much time on Reddit, you've been exposed to a lot of bad faith arguments and sadistic (instead of for the lulz) trolling.
It took me a bit when I first came to lemmy to realize that most people here (even ones I often strongly disagree with like anticolonist) are consistent in their view points and usually trying to have a discussion in good(ish) faith.
Have a nice day!
but this is the best way it could have happened
The best way was this happening a year ago so we could have a primary...
But you don't think Dem voters should have had a say?
I'm a lot more democratic than you apparently...
LOL good job parroting fox news's desperate "bIdEn ChEaTeD tHe DeMs!!!" talking points. i'll bet you're doing it for free too.
news flash-- biden isn't running, and you could have voted for anyone you wanted in the primary. so this entire "debate" about biden's shoulda/woulda/coulda, while entertaining to obliterate people in, is getting the tankie position exactly nowhere
What?
So if Faux News says we didn't get a real primary...
We have to lie and say we did?
That's Trumper logic man
Have fun with that.
Edit:
and you could have voted for anyone you wanted in the primary.
In my state (and others) Biden was the only Dem on the primary ballot...
LOL why weren't you and the apparently millions of other like minded yous mobilizing to either get someone else on the ballot, or writing in someone else?
or were you just accepting what you were told to, like you're accusing everyone else of doing now?
again--what do you think you're going to accomplish with all of these sad desperate dEmScHeAtEd attacks? making people not vote now?
again–what do you think you’re going to accomplish
Did you not see what happened to the Republican party when they stopped holding their politicians accountable?
Why are you trying to make the democratic party just as shitty?
btw: voter registrations for 18-34 year olds surged AFTER harris became the nominee. that means people are registering specifically to vote for harris. does that grind your gears? LOL
No...
It's a good thing, I've spent over a year saying Biden and Hillary are the only two who could.lose to trump...
I'm glad Biden finally listened to people who knew what he was talking about about. But I'm still mad that he waited so long we didn't get a primary.
You seem to be operating under football logic where people pick a team and only say good things about them.
Which again, is what made the Republican party into what it is today.
So I ask again, why do you want both major parties to act like Republicans?
If youre not gonna answer, there's no point in me wasting time with you.
Your argument here might hold some weight if it weren't for the fact that the only reason this conversation is even happening is that the presumptive Democratic candidate just voluntary withdrew from the race when it became clear that he couldn't win. The last guy staged a fucking coup after he lost.
How many months did you just spend bitching and moaning about how anyone would be better than Joe? Now you have anyone else and you're still salty about it. I wonder how you could make it any more transparent that your goal is just to discourage people from voting.
Since you seem willing to engage in discourse about this, I feel similarly to the person you replied to and can explain my position. I don't want to discourage anyone from voting, I have two goals:
Don't concede the White House to Trump
Fight back against the Democratic Party's efforts to reduce the voice of the people.
I'm guessing we agree on #1 and disagree on the premise of #2. I see #2 as a systemic pattern that really launched after the 2008 primaries when Obama disrupted the plan to place Hillary in the White House. It came to a head in 2016 and has been rippling ever since.
I never believed Joe should have run again in the first place, and in the last month it became clear that him running was detrimental to #1. So we push for him to step aside, while I still think he shouldn't have run in the first place. He steps down, and you feel satisfied because goal #1 is protected. But I'm deeply unsettled by the damage that has been done to #2. The Democrats just figured out how to skip the voice of the people entirely.
The last time this happened (1968 primaries, eerily similar) the Democrats launched a committee to reform the primary process into what it is today. A big improvement over what it was before, but Biden just revealed a significant weakness in it.
I'm happy to vote for Harris to fulfill #1, I'm thrilled that there was a surge in registrations. But if the Democrats don't address the critical problem of this process we all just witnessed, I fear #2 becomes unreachable. The Democrats are our only hope of saving our democracy, so if they abandon democracy within their party (like I have seen happening over the last 16 years), it's a hollow victory.
I'm not convinced that the party rallying behind the incumbent president and/or VP is nearly as much of a problem as you're making it out to be. Hillary got more votes than Bernie in 2016 and I know all the Bernie bros complain that the party conspired against him, but they always ignore the fact that Bernie is only a Democrat during the campaign and an Independent the rest of the time. Why would the DNC throw its weight behind someone like that rather than someone who has been active in the party for decades?
Joe probably shouldn't have run again, but it's not really a surprise that he did. What would have been nice is if Kamala had been out there pushing some policy and letting people know who she is over the last four years, but for some reason that didn't happen and here we are. Maybe the party's processes do need reform. Super delegates are inherently undemocratic, but I don't think they've tipped the scales one way or the other too badly recently.
You can also just look at give's history. He was relentlessly "genocide joe, blue maga, both sides..." for months. Even on articles that had nothing to do with Biden or Gaza and has developed a reputation for not being a good faith participant in any of the discussions around here which is why I felt the need to call him out. Especially when he keeps yelling about how the democrats are just as bad as republicans in an article about the Democratic president voluntary backing out of the race.
I tried to engage you in honest discourse explaining my position and you immediately went straight to all of your favorite one-liners designed to undermine without actually addressing anything.
All of your points are easily refuted and I'm happy to write them out if you need me to, but it's a conversation that's been done to death since 2016. I'll do one: "Bernie Bros" voted Hillary better than Hillary supporters voted for Obama. Leave your sexist bullshit at home unless you want to admit your camp is racist.
Sexism and racism? Jesus Christ man if accusations of prejudice are the only response you have to my comment, seemingly triggered by two words in the first paragraph, you clearly weren't actually interested in honest discourse and have ensured that none is possible. Piss off.
I’m guessing we agree on #1 and disagree on the premise of #2. I see #2 as a systemic pattern that really launched after the 2008 primaries when Obama disrupted the plan to place Hillary in the White House. It came to a head in 2016 and has been rippling ever since.
THANK YOU. It's fucking insane seeing people claim "well uhhh nobody ever complained about this before! maybe you should've complained about this before, maybe then things would've changed!" just because republicans decided to adopt it as a talking point since they're scrambling to come up with a new strategy and their plans have gone to shit. It's partisan brainworms of the highest order. I guess it's not surprising that they haven't heard these complaints or noticed these trends when they all only become fixated on keeping the pendulum republican candidate out for 6 months out of every four years at most and then completely go back to sleep for the rest of the time.
God, these people are so fucking intolerant of any criticism of their party, it's absurd. I really tried to engage in an honest discourse and the person reverted straight back to petty sexist bullshit and nonsequitors, ignoring what I said entirely.
It's such an embodiment of the out-of-touch Democratic party and how they can't possibly fathom any other point of view.
Are you really this butthurt that I calmly disagreed with you? I guess it's my own fault for actually believing you when you said you wanted an honest discussion.
LOL ok. you can sit there and say dems are "acting like republicans" for the rest of your life, but you'll die having NEVER been correct. dems have not tried to run fake electors. dems have not attempted an insurrection on the capitol to overthrow an election. dems don't nominate a rapist conman. this is among MANY, MANY things that blatantly throw your notion of "both sides are the same" out the window. honestly it's been tiresome for years
the immediate objective, right now, which should be everyone's absolute top priority, is keeping trump out of the white house. that's it. your motivation for trying (poorly) to undermine that doesn't matter. what matters is that your arguments are weak and without substance
yet still, assuming some parallel universe where you're right, you still haven't spelled out exactly what actions you expect people to take. i'm assuming it's not to vote at all. so, again: have fun with that
Looks like we're back in full "you can't criticize the Democrats at all or you're a Russian troll" territory. I hate this sycophancy.
I'm with you on this one. The Democrats have been skirting democracy to the best of their ability for years. I'm glad we've got a better chance of defeating Trump now, but I'm unwilling to concede the democratic process of nominating candidates. If we celebrate this fucked up process instead of holding their feet to the fire, they're just going to learn that actually they don't need to bother involving the people at all. We cannot give a single inch to the plutocrats at the top.
He didn't think he'd be pressured out 6 months ago. He's obeying popular opinion that shifted after the debate.
Someone here compared it to convincing an elderly parent to stop driving. They're not heroes either, it just sucks for everyone that nature works this way.
He did like a tenth of the press conferences as the last two presidents...
And people were pointing out his age related issues 4 years ago.
The only reason it took till the first debate for a critical mass to demand he drop out, was that was the first people had seen him speak for longer than 5 minutes. Ive been calling for him to do more public appearances/interviews this whole term, lots of us did. But we were called conspiracy nuts for saying an 80 year old was as capable as the average 80 year old.
The people around him day to day knew how bad it was and knew he'd be forced to step down if the public knew.
So they fucking hid him. Just like Republicans did with Reagan.
Like it or not, that's what happened.
I hope you at least learned that it's not just ok to criticize your "team" it's fundamentally necessary.
If people hadn't, wed still be running Joe and trump would still be likely to win.
History will paint Biden very kindly. This speech will be the example of a humble, good man.
This is like calling a school bus driver a hero because at the last possible second he hit the brakes instead of intentionally driving the bus off a cliff.
It's good he stepped aside, but he waited till pretty much the last second and clearly didn't want to hit the brakes.
In that analogy, the heroes are all the people that got him to hit the brakes.
I didn't call him a hero, though, I called him humble and good. In your zeal to urinate on corn flakes, you forgot basic reading skills.
Good for being complicit in the Genocide of Palestinians?
Good for stepping down for the sake of his country. Not good enough for certain internet pundits, but I think he'll get over that.
If he's "humble and good" he'd have stepped down a year ago so voters could have a real primary and not a coronation.
Before doubling down, it might be wise to know what you are doubling down on. Aggressive foolishness is still foolishness.
i remember when my debate strategy was yelling and stomping my feet. then i stopped being a toddler
And that's a good thing. It's better to figure it out before you Clinton yourself into the history books.
What does that even mean?
It sounds like you're just trying to make an insult that won't get removed for being an insult...
I'm not here to slap fight, find someone else.
Lmao, since when the fuck was there a coronation?
That's an interesting analogy because objectively the bus driver is a hero for stopping a bus full of kids hurtling off a cliff.
It's a poor analogy because there's no one on the bus trying to grab the wheel and hit the gas by force.
This ain't the movie Speed?
If he wasn't the one flooring it headed right to the cliff...
And if he didn't take months of people telling him to hit the brakes while he screamed back only "Lord God" can stop the bus
Absolutely nothing was stopping him from remaining in the race until the convention and becoming the official nominee. That was a viable path forward, if he had wanted to choose it. That he did not, deserves acknowledgement and respect.
I agree in principle with what you're saying.
However, a sitting president is not entitled to the nomination. It's happened before where a sitting president is denied a nomination for a second term, and it's been given to someone else in the party instead.
If it had gone that way with Biden though, I think the optics would have been so bad that there would be no hopes of salvaging the election though, so it's still praiseworthy that he dropped.
He was not going to be the nominee due to being the sitting president. He was going to be the nominee due to defeating his main rival "uncommitted" in the primaries, along with Rep. Dean Philips and Marianne Williamson.
while technically true, had uncommited gotten more than 2 weeks to campaign and made it onto every ballot, the dems might not have had to modify the ticket this late.
Yeah, I think there's not nearly enough single-issue Palestine voters to make that happen. Also, it was a write-in campaign, it was never "on" a ballot anywhere.
"uncommitted" / "no preference" were explicitly on some state ballots and palestine is a bigger culminating issue than people give credit for. "none of the above" running a distant, but meaningful, second is not encouraging.
regardless of your thoughts on biden in 2020, a diminished biden was a disaster for the Democrats and (potentially) the country in 2024.
No, not really. Single issue voters are fairly unusual in the dem party. There are always some, no question, but the very small size of the peace protests compared to those during, say, the Vietnam War era demonstrates a fairly niche issue imo. While most dems believe in peace for Palestine, relatively few would rank it among their top issues.
Regarding Biden's diminishment, delegation is the most important skill a leader can possess. It is not a leaders responsibility to make all the decisions, but to organize and provide vision for a group of people that can accomplish far more than any individual. Many people past their youth understand this, due to direct life experience in the broader world. Biden's diminishment would have had minimal impact on his actual presidency. At the polls, however, yes it definitely was a concern, eventually leading to him dropping out after all. The idea he actually could not win was very, very overblown though. He was still in the running. I think the broader concern was his impact on down-ballot races.
Regarding uncommitted actually being on some ballots, it seems you're right. Thank you for the correction, that's actually sort of funny. lol
thanks for the good convo. ignoring any other problems (including palestine being much more than just "single issue")
given the importance of controlling as many branches as possible to make the vitally important needed changes... isnt that innately disqualifying?
No, not to a more traditionally-minded dem. You could say that's a mistaken thought, that's my opinion personally. But it reminds me of a democratic leader reportedly saying he was resigning himself to a Trump presidency. It's common among dems to play with "honor" so much they lose, the much-debated "they go low, we go high" philosophy.
Delegates are bound to support in all good conscience the person for whom their primaries results reflect.
This bizzare turn of phrase has been largely been untested in the courts... But if, in good conscience, the delegates believe that the results of the primary were for the candidate who was best poised to defeat Trump (as in, they're not supporting Biden specifically as much as they are against Trump, for example) then they could argue that based on events that have occured since the primaries that they are in good conscience representing those wishes.
So, I dunno. I'm very glad Biden took the high road here, but I am unconvinced that this was truely set in stone. This is the exact justification for having delegates choose the nominee in the first place; that in certain critical conditions they can act in good faith.
I think that would be an extremely minority opinion far outside of the moderate dem mainstream. Since the electors get specifically chosen by the winning campaign, expecting some kind of broad revolt out of them is very wishful thinking.
Additionally, Biden was polling very close to Trump during a time when dems have been outperforming polls in our recent elections. Someone would have to be fairly ignorant of the actual voting results of recent races to actually think Biden genuinely had no chance. I do not think very many chosen delegates are ignorant of these election results, unlike more casually-engaged citizens online.
He could have shrugged it off like RBG did and fuck everyone for generations. Better late than never.
Obviously.
But if a guy has a gun next to your head and ends up not pulling the trigger, are you gonna talk about how good your kidnapper was?
You still got kidnapped, and you still had a gun to your head.
Why thank the person who caused the problem and not the hostage negotiaters who got you released?
Maybe the timing was to ensure an albatross like JD was firmly tied around his neck.
So you think Biden and the DNC colluded and he always meant to stand down?
He just waited until there wasn't enough time for a primary so Kamala could get it?
Don't get me wrong, she's got a better shot than Joe. But if you legitimately think they planned this timing...
That's not a good look.
Especially for voters in NH who had their primary delegates stolen.
Or he waited until the Trump campaign sunk millions of dollars into a strategy that has now been completely subverted and which they have no real way out of without a massive pivot like dropping Trump which isn't going to happen. If that's the case, I'd call it a pretty savvy move.
But that still took the decision of who the nominee should be out of the hands of voters.
If by that you mean "they followed the same standard procedure that's been in place for the entire history of the United States" then yes, exactly.
I don't think the timing was planned in advance.
But I think he was getting tired, probably had enough commitments for support to Kamala (he probably gave everybody who demanded he steps down an ultimatum, support her or he stays), and decided there wasn't going to be a better time to do it. Seems like he was right
https://slrpnk.net/comment/10036679
It's mind boggling the "new generation" to pass the torch to is nearly 60.
i would vote for a geriatric chimpanzee in a coma over trump
It's sad that is clearly the right decision though.
i would vote for a magic 8 ball over trump
It would probably be right more often than tRump! But -1 for lack of opposable thumbs.
Hot take: 60 is a perfect age. It's when most people (especially lawyers) have a ton of experience, but are mentally just as sharp as 30 year olds. In ancient human societies she'd be "an elder" in charge.
There's a ton of trolls in here who can't celebrate anything good while anything bad is happening. Yes, his response to the genocide in Israel was abysmal. I have no illusions that the right would have done any better, and in fact believe Trump would have thrown more fuel on it. I'm ecstatic that Biden is not running again so that maybe Kamala can finally fucking do something about it. But I think we can take five seconds to admit that he did a lot of good for our country in other ways and made the right call here in dropping out.
For those who won't budge:
There's literally no winning, huh? Any flaw or misstep is enough to complain about and use as a reason to abstain or be an accelerationist. Y'all will claim Biden and Dems are monsters for their flaws. All that does is hurt the sane side of our government and make the actual fascists who have done so much worse have a better chance at taking over.
Can y'all please please please not let perfect be the enemy of good for once in your miserable life? This thinking is what brought us Trump in the first place, and while I can agree we need to do better, start at the local level, because only caring when we're on another brinkmanship presidential race makes you look like short-sighted toddlers.
it's pretty telling that, for all the biden bashing and accusations of "you support genocide!!!" in this thread, i see very few concrete actionable suggestions from those people about what everyone should be doing right now. beyond "sToP sAyInG gOoD tHiNgS aBoUt BiDeN"
LOL
no.
Look, all these posts from accounts on lemmygrad, chapotraphouse members, lemmy.ml…they’re all bullshit. I’m convinced that they are entirely Russian trolls. There is no making them happy with slightly left of center. It seems they’ll never be happy until America has been destroyed. There is no point to placating them or even acknowledging their existence.
The “genocide Joe” moniker was particularly stupid. Do you really think Joe Biden was going to single handedly denounce Israel and kill off a key strategic alliance because of a few extremists? It is a completely silly notion.
it's important to slap down the nonsense and call out the bullshit at every opportunity. they're coming out of the woodwork to harass and manipulate everyone into second guessing themselves, for the sole purpose of getting trump into the white house.
fuck that shit.
The problem is this isn't true. I hate Biden but I despise the way Trump makes him look decent comparatively. How long can keep running slightly worse candidates compared to your previous one (hopefully Harris bucks this trend)?
People who call out Biden get called single issue voters; by people who's only concern is Trump doesn't get elected. They are ignoring absymal healthcare, terrible foreign policy, horrible housing prices, costly food bills, even the stable finicial sector is now losing jobs due to the AI craze.
I understand why people are worried about Trump. Still, we need candidates who actually want to run the country correctly and not just cater to the rich. We cannot sacrifice everything because the news makes Trump to be all powerful.
You are gas lighting. We need to start caling this everytime we see it. Otherwise, you would bother people on Truth Social and Twitter (or even reddit which actually has a population that could matter in a national election) if you wanted people to stop voting for Trump. But that would make too much sense.
Gaslighting? What?
You’re never going to get the perfect candidate until we reform elections (ranked choice, more parties, get rid of citizens united).
You cannot blame us for not liking Biden when he does not cater to us. We are not the problem, even if you manage to phrase the issue to make it seem we are at fault.
Absolutely keep voting the most liberal Congress people you can. But let's not kid ourselves: you have to vote for the people who want reform election to get reform election - and Biden isn't one of those people.
Edit: extended last sentence to make it make more sense
Is Trump?
Trump is a distraction. He's a tool to compromise values and pretend we have a common goal. Yelling at Biden accomplished more already than fearing Trump.
I’m asking you directly: is Trump a better vehicle to achieve these goals?
Absolutely not. I don't want him to win. The original person I replied to stated that those who hate Biden secretly want Trump to win. Which is false. It's an outright lie. I'm over this game of OMG McCain, Romney, Trump, etc. may win so compromise your values and slowly let this country rot or risk everything collapsing.
Nothing happens overnight in government. It’s a huge ship to turn. If you want progress, vote for the party that aligns closest with your goals. Otherwise you’re simply whining.
Whining made Biden go away. Guess, it's only okay to complain about Biden if you're as famous as John Stewart.
The only thing these parties eat is votes. It's time they work harder for them. Fearing their opposition makes them lazy.
Leaving aside the actual political substance of your comment. Don't you think it's a bit... Head in the sand to assume anyone who disagrees with you is some "Russian troll"? I know we all exist in social media bubbles, myself included, but my social circles and my online circles all share "radical" concerns about the administration and country in general but it generally comes from a genuine desire for our politicians and therefore country to be and do better. We're all Americans just like (I presume) you.
I joined lemmy.ml cause of the FOSS stuff but I'm learning it comes with a reputation I didn't know about.
In my childhood (in Russia) I'd talk this way about Russia. So they might be real.
I just (EDIT: later) realized later that many of the good things around me are too, well, not from Mars.
And that many of the bad things around me are absolutely not specific to Russia or ex-USSR.
And that one thing absolutely right is scolding all you don't like and not bowing your head, because when you accept fools and their foolery because of some false "lesser evil", you lose.
Not all of them are trolls. Shit, I've met tankies more libertarian that a lot of people "not interested in politics", because the norm for that grey mass has shifted to a really dark place.
Trump essentially said he would just let Israel “finish the job”. So yeah, throwing fuel on it is exactly what he would have done. Turned Israel loose.
Finding a reason to permanently write somebody off as bad is the way of the
sithconservatives.The spectacle of the presidential election has diverted a lot of attention away from the genocide in Palestine, the upswell in COVID infections and deaths nationally, and the decaying domestic infrastructure driven by climate change. Biden's retirement isn't changing any of that.
Kamala's been the heir designate to the party for less than a week and she's already writing condemnation letters aimed at Palestinian Rights protesters in DC. Its a grim state of affairs, particularly with the police violence on student campuses still fresh in people's minds.
We're waiting for some good. So far, we've had a bumper crop of cutesy memes and a bit of relief from the deeply depressing poll numbers that signaled Trump would receive a free ride into the White House in November. But we're still waiting for a candidate to put more on the table than her famous "$20k in relief for a Pell Grant Recipient who runs a business in a disadvantaged community for at least three years".
Not everyone is happy to open their wallets and bust out the walking shoes for just any generic liberal candidate.
I cannot wrap my mind around this level of privilege. In all honesty I really can't. I don't think there's a thing I could do to change your opinion and this nugget:
Suggests you or others with your opinions won't vote because... she's generic? Or didn't do enough yet? And claiming that Biden dropping out won't end the genocide, so let's not see it as positive?
What saint would you prefer we vote in? Can you explain how they are both morally spotlessly pure AND have a snowball's chance in hell? If you're convincing enough, maybe that second coming of Jesus will lead us to a utopia. /s
Some of us are not in the position of being able to use a foreign tragedy as our stopping block. Some of us have our rights and safety on the line.
Folks on Lemmy think this entire election revolves around them.
This is the biggest self-own, wow.
I just stole this and it’s already relevant
If stopping genocide is your biggest issue, I suggest going to rail against in it right-wing spaces instead. There's a lot more pro-genocide to stop there.
If you're defending a genocidal administration, you're a right-winger.
At first, I was pissed that he didn't bow out two months ago.
Now I have nothing but respect for the man. He realized when to step aside and let his partner take the reign, and did so with effective enough timing to throw a massive wrench into the republicans' plans.
If Kamala wins, history will see him as the kind elder statesman who knew when to step aside for the good of the country.
John Adams is the first American president to make unpopular decision and did not let ego rule him, despite losing him the election. Americans were baying for blood to go to war against the French in 1799 but Adams refused, knowing that America will lose if he declared war. It cost him his re-election, but he did the right thing.
Edit: wrong year
Nobody tell this guy about the Whiskey Rebellion.
Couldn't agree more and his words on the matter were really touching.
I just hope the party as a whole can keep this up. I have never felt like the party cared more about being in touch with the people than it does now.
I do agree, but also in 4-8 years I’d like an actual competitive primary. Like the kind Obama won
If Trump wins, history will remember Biden as "the antichrist, bringer of despair, slow witted grim reaper, sad."*
*This antiwoke curriculum is approved by the council of Gilead.
Biden got forced out by his donors and other Democrats (establishment ones surprisingly). He would have kept running if he could.
honest question, are you guys making any headway outside of hexbear and lemmygrad? i mean i'm sure everyone loves you in your safe space, but you have to know your "vote josevlad marxtalin 2024!!!" stance is pretty laughable out in the world
You can't .ml Biden committing Genocide away no matter how hard you try.
So, serious question: Do you only step up to defend other countries, or are the people in the U.S., where I assume you live, also on the agenda for the evening? Cause yeah, Genocide is pretty shit. Evil even.
What about the black communities?
Homeless?
Native American?
Disabled?
Veterans?
Children?
And the larger issue of fucking fascism that leads to precisely what you're so stuck yelling about blindly?
Here's what I think: Most of you are parrots. Actual sentient wagons transformed into people. Many of you don't have many details, you kneejerk on issues that cannot be approached from any other angle than "Yeah, of course I agree" and challenge everyone who doesn't immediately bow with "YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!" as if you're the seagulls from Finding Nemo. Now maybe I'm wrong. Maybe YOU stand more often. If so, why stand with the crowd who will move on when the next big thing happens?
Never, EVER, remove support for the greater good when the greater evil guarantees more suffering. Otherwise all you're doing is becoming a part of the problem.
You can look at their history and see that since October they've basically commented or posted about anything else. It's several times a day they are canvassing for "Palestine" ie. Trump.
Of course i do. Which is why I will never support someone complicit in Genocide. Unlike the people enabling Fascism.
Your track record seems to have zero criticism of Republicans, when we know Trump would be far worse in supporting Israeli warcrimes. Just this once, can you come out and say that Trump would actually be worse for the one topic you ever seem to discuss?
Your track record seems to be making shit up and hoping nobody will ever fact check it.
Your track record seems to be personal attacks whenever someone asks you to provide substantial proof that can be fact checked and cross-referenced. You'll submit articles that agree specifically with your take and call anyone who challenges it with information liars or claim they don't know what they're talking about. You don't challenge people with logic, you challenge them with emotion, and chances are you're angry because it feels as if everyone else is wrong and no one listens.
Man, that must be stressful.
Are you trying to reach peak irony?
I want you to think loooong and hard about what you just said. Really consider it.
K
Very stoic in your support for Genocide I see. So cool and manly.
calling me pro-genocide doesn't make it so. no matter how hard you try.
So you don't support Joe Biden who is complicit in Genocide?
lol biden's not running dude. but yes, i was going to vote for him.
and no, you're not going to get me to concede that i "support genocide." ever. we CAN condemn some of an individual's actions while still voting for them, because that's the best (if not ONLY) path to progress
are you this exhausting in real life? does it actually get you anywhere? because it's not working here.
Genocide is where people with morals draw a red line but i guess Bidens 'red lines' match his voters.
LOL dude in 20+ comments of you saying gEnOcIdEJOe!!!!!! UrAgEnoCiDeR!!!! you haven't offered a name of a single candidate whom everyone should be supporting instead OR suggested a single course of action that everyone should be taking to make progress on the problem
i'm honestly glad you haven't been deleted for trolling, because this has been hilarious. tell your comrades you've completed your mission. no one in here is voting for joe
LOL
20+ comments of people openly supporting Genocide
Ah so you retract all your statements about Biden and replace them with warnings about Trump being far worse?
Because unless you do these two things, your supposed support for Palestine rings fully hollow.
Thanks person consistently defending israel around Lemmy. You sure care about Palestinians.
Being dishonest is kind of your thing. That and obsessively smearing unrelated people for crimes they did not commit.
Projection is an art.
Hmm but Extra Militant Joffrey can lay the actions of Israel all at the feet of the POTUS as though he were directly responsible, even though a second grader would easily understand that makes no sense.
Stop pretending that decades of financial support are new. They aren't. We all know that, and your canvassing just makes you look like a liar.
So what? At the end of the day he did what people wanted, it just took a demonstration of how badly we wanted it.
Why respect a Genocidal maniac for stepping down only when forced to do so?
Just be happy he's not running anymore nobody's buying these fairy tales about how great he is.
If Biden is a “genocidal maniac”, what do you label actual “genocidal maniacs”
Are you denying Biden is complicit in Genocide?
If Biden is a “genocidal maniac”, what do you label actual “genocidal maniacs”
Are you denying that you have zero geopolitical experience whatsoever? Because unless you do, you have no fucking clue what Biden's options even are, being that you're a one note armchair political scientist without the ability to even acknowledge the most basic of realities surrounding the situation.
You obsessively post about this issue several times every day to the point that it would be weird even if you yourself were both a Palestinian and also have hard evidence that Biden himself pulled the trigger every single time someone died.
Your obsession here is beyond strange, and it makes it impossible for anyone observing to think something weird isn't going on with you
It's so fascinating that you simultaneously think that people can't possibly know anything about politics if they don't have geopolitical experience, and yet you can be absolutely certain that there is no way biden could be guilty of killing Palestinians unless he is personally executing them. Your self contradictions are so blatant, but you seem to still be completely blind to them. When you grow up, you will look back on this version of yourself as so childish.
Yeah it's super hard logic but bare with me. We have supported Israel since its inception. As outsiders, we don't really understand the impact of pulling funding. There you have it, you have no fucking clue. I know, that was really challenging to understand. But you can do it, provided you stop working for Vladimir for a moment.
Yeah given that we have no evidence to suggest that he personally did anything, and we also know that Israel has already been receiving funding since always, I have no reason to be sure of fuck-all that you would suggest. In fact you've given piles of reasons to discard your every single word.
So are you changing your story from biden is innocent to biden may be innocent or may be guilty, and you have no way of knowing?
In the same way that the head of secret service just got fired for the assassination attempt, the person in charge of the country is responsible when millions of tax dollars go to fund an ongoing genocide. That's just how it works. The leader is responsible for what the group does. Especially when the leader is crucial in directing funds.
I'm changing jackshit, scumbag who literally last night claimed that trump bombed zero people until it was proven that was a lie and then denied they ever said that. Leave this platform. Pro-Trump russian trolls are not welcome here.
I fixed my own slight mistake. It is absolutely true that Trump played almost no part in any wars, he definetly did not facilitate a genocide. The fact that you are clinging to this is very telling. You are acting like someone who punched someone in the face is as bad as a serial killer. There actually are arguments that you could have, but you don't even know what they are. All you know is you are supposed to dislike trump, you haven't the slightest idea why, and you have the fact that you are supposed to like the guy who won't stop genociding. You are confused and angry. It's a bit sad.
Because the alternative is they don't step down.
Except no, that's not the alternative. The party gets to choose the candidate. Biden tried to stay and they told him to get out the easy or the hard way.
You must have forgotten Biden not holding a primary.
What's "the hard way"?
They openly ditch him during the convention.
Donors already pulled out. Establishment called for him to step down voluntarily. if he doesn't listen he doesn't magically get to stay.
You don't know the (binding!) DNC rules? He had the delegates committed to him and couldn't have been forced out. And he didn't want to quit. It was a pressure campaign to make him look out of control, and he's always been better at negotiating behind closed doors than he is at PR so he couldn't fight back effectively. Pretty much a chicken race to see who backs down first.
From the timing of everything going on I suspect that with the combination of the media campaign, backstabbing in the party, him being sick x2 and tired, and finally a Republican convention and VP pick being newsworthily weird (and probably also with some commitments from others to back Kamala if he stepped down) I bet he thought there wouldn't be any better opportunity to do it.
(I was expecting the switch to end in chaos, somehow for once DNC managed to do something coordinated, DESPITE many donors also wanting to ditch Kamala)
I certainly hope Kamala will be harsher against Netanyahu and back the ICC rulings
If you think Biden could've been forced out if he wasn't willing to step down then you don't know anything about politics.
I bet you were one of those people demanding the sergeant at arms arrest people who ignored subpoenas during Trump's first impeachment.
Do you understand how the president is picked? They need delegates to run.
Do you know how Democrat canidates are picked? Biden already had enough pledged delegates to win the nomination.
Not holding a primary before the Democratic National Conventionis one way to try to coup it, but they could still just put in someone else in.
They did hold a primary. You might have not liked how they ran it. I had my own issues with it as well, but they did and once those votes are in the pledged delegates have to honor the winner from it, which Biden was. Tell me how they could have just taken it away from him without him stepping down again?
Biden pretended he was going to be a 1 term president but now tried to hijack it for a dual term.
Biden could give an official order to have anyone speaking out against him shot. Doesn't mean he will. But he can. Same goes for the voting honor system. We're just expecting nobody to break the unwritten rules. but unwritten rules that will get broken when needed.
Like how the white house will straight up lie about a Genocide being committed in order to violate Leahy law.
Not to mention he's basically been given the green light by SCOTUS to eliminate the opposition. He's been given supreme executive power and is choosing not to exercise it.
"Defending Democracy"
lmao
What’s funny?
No one voted for Harris. She was just... selected. Without a single vote. Democrats.. spouting Democracy. fkin lol.
Her name was on the ballot in 2020, everyone who voted for Biden also voted for Harris.
You appear to be conservative, so here is the best online course I could find to teach you about the U.S. Constitution:
America's Written Constitution by Yale University on Coursera:
Let me know when you've completed it and we can have a real big boy conversation ;)
I should vote for the fascist then?
You should vote for whoever you feel best represents you and your needs.
So probably not the fascist.
She also hasn't been elected to anything yet? There's nothing undemocratic about a party choosing who it wants to run in an election internally.
Fuck off Joe, you're slightly better than Hillary because you did eventually listen to reason.
But he should have said years ago he wasn't going to run in 2024.
Hell, even if he just said it 6 months ago we could have had a real primary
It's good he finally did the right thing, but he came damn close to not. He's not a hero because he stopped doing the wrong thing at the last possible second. A week ago he wouldn't stop rambling about "Lord God" was the only one that could make him drop
Dude is off the deep already, and has been for a while.
nah. i won't call him a "hero" but this is the best way it could have happened, rather than republicans having YEARS to foment hatred and spin conspiracy theories and make everyone waste time debunking lie after lie about harris.
and nobody's going to switch from D to R because it's harris instead of biden. you can be fairly certain, however, that there WILL be people voting who weren't going to vote at all when it was biden instead of harris
should he be applauded? yes. is he a hero? no. should he have announced it years ago? no fucking way.
That's a really awful take. It's good that Biden has stepped aside but our lack of a primary absolutely isn't "a good thing". Primaries are how we battle test our candidates and Harris has never performed well in one. I hope to hell she wins but I'd have more confidence if she'd been able to secure the nomination through traditional means.
Well, she didn't do well in her presidential primary, no argument there. But she did do well enough in her primaries for AG and Senator for California to win not only those nominations but those elections, too.
who do you think would have won (or should have won) this hypothetical primary that was "stolen" from us?
I don't have a fucking clue because we never got to have one.
funny how no one started whining about it until just now.
what might have happened, i wonder, if all the hissy fits were thrown back then, instead of AFTER biden stepped down (thanks to hissy fits)?
don't answer. that was a rhetorical question. congratulations, you have been successful in your mission to poopooh biden and make me not vote for him.
LOL
I don't know where you've been but I've been bitching about this for the past six months. I absolutely loathe the fact that we don't have a real primary when we have an incumbent president and I was really disappointed when Biden changed his tune from being a one term president. I also really appreciate what Biden did do in office even though I thought he'd be an awful president during the last election!
Thanks for making so many assumptions about me though, I'll be sure to mulch my garden with all these strawmen you set up.
Oh and you better fucking vote, don't even think about sitting out the election - it's cowardly and immature!
i stand corrected. however, "dems stole your primary" is already a favorite of republicans, not to affect meaningful change, but to make people vote for anything except D. so sorry to say, you're in for more of that
No worries. I know it's easy to generalize about other people on the internet and, if you spent much time on Reddit, you've been exposed to a lot of bad faith arguments and sadistic (instead of for the lulz) trolling.
It took me a bit when I first came to lemmy to realize that most people here (even ones I often strongly disagree with like anticolonist) are consistent in their view points and usually trying to have a discussion in good(ish) faith.
Have a nice day!
The best way was this happening a year ago so we could have a primary...
But you don't think Dem voters should have had a say?
I'm a lot more democratic than you apparently...
LOL good job parroting fox news's desperate "bIdEn ChEaTeD tHe DeMs!!!" talking points. i'll bet you're doing it for free too.
news flash-- biden isn't running, and you could have voted for anyone you wanted in the primary. so this entire "debate" about biden's shoulda/woulda/coulda, while entertaining to obliterate people in, is getting the tankie position exactly nowhere
What?
So if Faux News says we didn't get a real primary...
We have to lie and say we did?
That's Trumper logic man
Have fun with that.
Edit:
In my state (and others) Biden was the only Dem on the primary ballot...
LOL why weren't you and the apparently millions of other like minded yous mobilizing to either get someone else on the ballot, or writing in someone else?
or were you just accepting what you were told to, like you're accusing everyone else of doing now?
again--what do you think you're going to accomplish with all of these sad desperate dEmScHeAtEd attacks? making people not vote now?
have fun with that
btw: voter registrations for 18-34 year olds surged AFTER harris became the nominee. that means people are registering specifically to vote for harris. does that grind your gears? LOL
Did you not see what happened to the Republican party when they stopped holding their politicians accountable?
Why are you trying to make the democratic party just as shitty?
No...
It's a good thing, I've spent over a year saying Biden and Hillary are the only two who could.lose to trump...
I'm glad Biden finally listened to people who knew what he was talking about about. But I'm still mad that he waited so long we didn't get a primary.
You seem to be operating under football logic where people pick a team and only say good things about them.
Which again, is what made the Republican party into what it is today.
So I ask again, why do you want both major parties to act like Republicans?
If youre not gonna answer, there's no point in me wasting time with you.
Your argument here might hold some weight if it weren't for the fact that the only reason this conversation is even happening is that the presumptive Democratic candidate just voluntary withdrew from the race when it became clear that he couldn't win. The last guy staged a fucking coup after he lost.
How many months did you just spend bitching and moaning about how anyone would be better than Joe? Now you have anyone else and you're still salty about it. I wonder how you could make it any more transparent that your goal is just to discourage people from voting.
Since you seem willing to engage in discourse about this, I feel similarly to the person you replied to and can explain my position. I don't want to discourage anyone from voting, I have two goals:
I'm guessing we agree on #1 and disagree on the premise of #2. I see #2 as a systemic pattern that really launched after the 2008 primaries when Obama disrupted the plan to place Hillary in the White House. It came to a head in 2016 and has been rippling ever since.
I never believed Joe should have run again in the first place, and in the last month it became clear that him running was detrimental to #1. So we push for him to step aside, while I still think he shouldn't have run in the first place. He steps down, and you feel satisfied because goal #1 is protected. But I'm deeply unsettled by the damage that has been done to #2. The Democrats just figured out how to skip the voice of the people entirely.
The last time this happened (1968 primaries, eerily similar) the Democrats launched a committee to reform the primary process into what it is today. A big improvement over what it was before, but Biden just revealed a significant weakness in it.
I'm happy to vote for Harris to fulfill #1, I'm thrilled that there was a surge in registrations. But if the Democrats don't address the critical problem of this process we all just witnessed, I fear #2 becomes unreachable. The Democrats are our only hope of saving our democracy, so if they abandon democracy within their party (like I have seen happening over the last 16 years), it's a hollow victory.
I'm not convinced that the party rallying behind the incumbent president and/or VP is nearly as much of a problem as you're making it out to be. Hillary got more votes than Bernie in 2016 and I know all the Bernie bros complain that the party conspired against him, but they always ignore the fact that Bernie is only a Democrat during the campaign and an Independent the rest of the time. Why would the DNC throw its weight behind someone like that rather than someone who has been active in the party for decades?
Joe probably shouldn't have run again, but it's not really a surprise that he did. What would have been nice is if Kamala had been out there pushing some policy and letting people know who she is over the last four years, but for some reason that didn't happen and here we are. Maybe the party's processes do need reform. Super delegates are inherently undemocratic, but I don't think they've tipped the scales one way or the other too badly recently.
You can also just look at give's history. He was relentlessly "genocide joe, blue maga, both sides..." for months. Even on articles that had nothing to do with Biden or Gaza and has developed a reputation for not being a good faith participant in any of the discussions around here which is why I felt the need to call him out. Especially when he keeps yelling about how the democrats are just as bad as republicans in an article about the Democratic president voluntary backing out of the race.
I tried to engage you in honest discourse explaining my position and you immediately went straight to all of your favorite one-liners designed to undermine without actually addressing anything.
All of your points are easily refuted and I'm happy to write them out if you need me to, but it's a conversation that's been done to death since 2016. I'll do one: "Bernie Bros" voted Hillary better than Hillary supporters voted for Obama. Leave your sexist bullshit at home unless you want to admit your camp is racist.
Sexism and racism? Jesus Christ man if accusations of prejudice are the only response you have to my comment, seemingly triggered by two words in the first paragraph, you clearly weren't actually interested in honest discourse and have ensured that none is possible. Piss off.
THANK YOU. It's fucking insane seeing people claim "well uhhh nobody ever complained about this before! maybe you should've complained about this before, maybe then things would've changed!" just because republicans decided to adopt it as a talking point since they're scrambling to come up with a new strategy and their plans have gone to shit. It's partisan brainworms of the highest order. I guess it's not surprising that they haven't heard these complaints or noticed these trends when they all only become fixated on keeping the pendulum republican candidate out for 6 months out of every four years at most and then completely go back to sleep for the rest of the time.
God, these people are so fucking intolerant of any criticism of their party, it's absurd. I really tried to engage in an honest discourse and the person reverted straight back to petty sexist bullshit and nonsequitors, ignoring what I said entirely.
It's such an embodiment of the out-of-touch Democratic party and how they can't possibly fathom any other point of view.
Are you really this butthurt that I calmly disagreed with you? I guess it's my own fault for actually believing you when you said you wanted an honest discussion.
LOL ok. you can sit there and say dems are "acting like republicans" for the rest of your life, but you'll die having NEVER been correct. dems have not tried to run fake electors. dems have not attempted an insurrection on the capitol to overthrow an election. dems don't nominate a rapist conman. this is among MANY, MANY things that blatantly throw your notion of "both sides are the same" out the window. honestly it's been tiresome for years
the immediate objective, right now, which should be everyone's absolute top priority, is keeping trump out of the white house. that's it. your motivation for trying (poorly) to undermine that doesn't matter. what matters is that your arguments are weak and without substance
yet still, assuming some parallel universe where you're right, you still haven't spelled out exactly what actions you expect people to take. i'm assuming it's not to vote at all. so, again: have fun with that
Looks like we're back in full "you can't criticize the Democrats at all or you're a Russian troll" territory. I hate this sycophancy.
I'm with you on this one. The Democrats have been skirting democracy to the best of their ability for years. I'm glad we've got a better chance of defeating Trump now, but I'm unwilling to concede the democratic process of nominating candidates. If we celebrate this fucked up process instead of holding their feet to the fire, they're just going to learn that actually they don't need to bother involving the people at all. We cannot give a single inch to the plutocrats at the top.
Now that he's stepped down, it's a lot harder for you to hide that Trump love. You've lost your talking point, lol. Floundering just like the GOP.
He didn't think he'd be pressured out 6 months ago. He's obeying popular opinion that shifted after the debate.
Someone here compared it to convincing an elderly parent to stop driving. They're not heroes either, it just sucks for everyone that nature works this way.
He did like a tenth of the press conferences as the last two presidents...
And people were pointing out his age related issues 4 years ago.
The only reason it took till the first debate for a critical mass to demand he drop out, was that was the first people had seen him speak for longer than 5 minutes. Ive been calling for him to do more public appearances/interviews this whole term, lots of us did. But we were called conspiracy nuts for saying an 80 year old was as capable as the average 80 year old.
The people around him day to day knew how bad it was and knew he'd be forced to step down if the public knew. So they fucking hid him. Just like Republicans did with Reagan.
Like it or not, that's what happened.
I hope you at least learned that it's not just ok to criticize your "team" it's fundamentally necessary.
If people hadn't, wed still be running Joe and trump would still be likely to win.