Edit: I'm changing my stance on how common this is after a few hours looking at top election posts and comments across boards. The abuse definitely exists, but in most places it WASN'T at the top. While "vote bullying" happens, I was wrong about how much support it gets. I'm happy to be wrong and glad to see that people usually are pretty decent about presenting their arguments. I still think OP's article shows how people should be convinced.
I get what you are saying and half-agree. Where I respectfully disagree is that people have always been this reasonable. By writing "this is how it's done correctly, with respect and logic" I'm juxtaposing Sen. Sander's approach vs. "vote with us or else you're -insert insult here-" posts, comments, and memes. I've seen tons of some attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right that some most have always tried to be empathetic and civil.
I also agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I'm a consciously "have no heroes" person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I'll agree with all the time.
Eh. It started respectful, but dealing with the same tired "never genocide" canvassing of every single election thread gets old. And the people making those arguments know exactly what they're doing.
Do you expect the opposition to fall over themselves to be respectful and accommodating while the other is not playing by the same rules?
Does that remind you of something the Dems were very heavily criticized for doing in the recent past?
I expect libs to be respectful and accommodating to the left... And come out swinging against the right... What irritates me is when the libs take the left for granted and continuously move right on issues to try and scrape more shit off Trump's boots
I do not respect the self identified "leftists" that do nothing but make demands and then move the goalposts.
You expect libs to be respectful, yet give no respect yourself.
Check you privilege. Your single issue voting is throwing minorities and women under the bus.
I do not respect that.
Demanding that Dems represent us if they want our vote is not disrespectful... Demanding that the left support you while spitting in their faces is disrespectful
You are throwing foreigners under the bus. You only care about women and minorities if they are american, the rest of us can get bombed with white phosphorus for all you care, scum.
It started respectful
I do not respect them
It started respectful
...
I do not respect them
You're funny.
You voting for the establishment is throwing foreigners under the bus. America first, am I right?
The same canvassing from the same accounts, no less.
Does anybody miss Linkerbaan?
Me either.
I had honestly forgotten Linkerbaan existed. But now that you mention it, it's been quite noticeably less toxic on Lemmy for some time. Linkerbaan's participation was just complete bad faith. UniversalMonk, too.
There are plenty of other personalities on here who are more than willing to accuse everyone else of being "genocide-loving centrists." So the community has lost nothing.
Did they finally get banned or just quit? I never see them post shit anymore. Absolutely a propagandist and I'm surprised more people didn't see it months ago
Banned around a month ago.
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.
Is ban dodging cutting into your paycheck, comrade...?
Probably time to go set up a new account. See you in a few.
I'd forgotten about that poster. At some point I realized every post was about Israel or Gaza, commented as much, and was faced with a technical denial. Like, ok there may have been 1% that wasn't on that topic, but I didn't stumble across it leafing back through a few pages of the profile.
I agree. Those anti-genocide people are very mean.
Eh. It started respectful
It absolutely did not, because the center only respects the right.
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.
Generally speaking, people AREN'T saying "vote with us or else you're a piece of shit" to anyone who is (good faith) complaining about Biden's horrendous record on genocide and Kamala being unlikely to be much better. We almost always point out "Yeah... it sucks. But do you think trump will be any better? and get responses along the lines of "WELL I WON'T VOTE FOR GENOCIDE!! THAT IS MY LINE!!!"
It has nothing to do with the way the message was said and pretending otherwise is an active insult to everyone who gives a shit.
The only reason this MIGHT make a dent is because it is Bernie Sanders. The guy who opened a lot of people's minds to the reality that there is something better than late stage capitalism and beltway liberals.
people AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit”
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023. The issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not "Trump worse" is working as a strategy. What Bernie is saying here isn't new, and maybe he's saying it better, or its better coming from him than other surrogates. ymmv. I would argue you've already captured all the votes you can get using this approach. Now what about the votes you aren't getting with the argument "Trump worse"?
I think without a pivot on this Harris is leaving the easiest 1-3% of voters to get on the table. And they've been there since the last day of the convention, where Harris conveniently showed Arab-americans the exit rather than the podium. Its a small group, but its more than sufficient to be a deal breaker in this election. You can't force them to go for Harris, and no amount of telling them they have to has changed their minds.
Going forwards, how do you get these voters to vote for Harris?
I am an AAPI. I already know no candidate gives a shit about me. Hell, it says something when frigging Yang seemed palatable for like... five minutes. And with the way geopolitics is shaking up? If you thought the anti-asian hate was bad during the lockdown parts of COVID, just wait until we are in a cold war gone lukewarm against china like we are with russia.
And that is why a lot of AAPI folk kind of go right wing. They, like their parents, decide it is easier to try to ingratiate themselves wit hteh white supremacists than to show solidarity. But the rest of us? We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are "model minorities" and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
But also? That isn't the only issue. There are AAPI women and AAPI lgbtq+ folk and so forth. And thus, you actually look at the issues and vote in your interests even if neither party really gives a shit. Because you have more than one issue (and, even that, one party is still a lot less shitty)
So if "Well... neither is great but one is a whole lot worse in these very concrete ways" isn't working?
You get a celebrity influencer to say it. Like Sanders.
We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are “model minorities” and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
Its like the trolley problem exemplified. Blue-dog democrats be like "well someone needs to get crushed under the weight of this thing".
Yes...that's the point of the trolley problem. Someone does get crushed.
The crushing is the point, yes.
And you get to pick how much crushing happens.
And you get to pick how much crushing happens.
Which sounds like gloating from people who saw all the people tied to one set of tracks and used it as an excuse to tie that one guy to the other track.
And that is NOT how the trolley problem works. None of us tied anyone to the tracks. There's no one else. There's just people on the tracks, and a trolley, and a lever, and you. All of the set-up happened before you got there. You are only able to make a decision about the lever.
And that is NOT how the trolley problem works.
That's because it's an abstract thought experiment. Here in concrete reality, Democratic politicians are willingly selling weapons to a genocidal apartheid regime, and refuse to stop. They could untie the guy any time they want, but are super worried that the guys who tied everyone else to the other set of tracks might not like them if they do.
Doesn't matter. All YOU can do is pull the lever, or not. You can't change who's on the track. You can't remove the trolley. You can't untie the people or lift up the tracks. In this sense, the trolley problem is almost a 1-for-1 representation of voting (in a swing state, at least). You can pull the lever, or not. Those are your options.
Doesn’t matter.
To people who get what they want no matter the state of the lever.
I voted for Harris. I'm not going to proclaim that your genocide is the moral genocide just because you demand that I do.
Edit: I'm adjusting my stance because while I can find abuse in many threads most of the time it WASN'T in the top comments. Seeing what actually makes it to the top proves I was wrong and I won't cherry-pick comments further down to argue I'm "right". "Vote bullying" exists so I'm not deleting, but when I looked for other examples I found that most of the time upvotes are for reasonable folks.
I'll give one high-ish profile example that illustrates what I'm talking about:
/c/politicalmemes has nearly 6k users, which is fairly big for Lemmy. In the last 6 months, the #3 top post with 1.91k upvotes is about how not voting because you feel there's no good choice means Republicans win and not seeing that means "you have a problem". The top comment in that post is about how people saying Biden isn't doing enough are propagandists. The #3 top comment literally tells dissenters to "do a lot more shutting the fuck up".
As I've said from the beginning: it's not universal, but it shows up regularly enough to make me appreciate Bernie's approach.
The meme sub. Where people intentionally try to make jokes and antagonize each other?
Edit: While I stand by what I say below about the sentiments being genuine, when actually reading top comments across boards - in most threads the top comments are pretty civil and reasonable. I was wrong.
I believe the meme and comments actually reflect the views of the people posting them. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the sentiments come across as very genuine and so I don't think it's accurate to dismiss them as "just joking". I also picked it because I remembered it and so it was faster than trawling through other threads for examples.
"I've never seen liberals act like assholes, so it must actually be the leftists who are assholes"
Edit: I'm changing my stance on how common this is after a few hours looking at top election posts and comments across boards. The abuse definitely exists, but in most places it WASN'T at the top. While "vote bullying" happens, I was wrong about how much support it gets. I'm happy to be wrong and glad to see that people usually are pretty decent about presenting their arguments. I still think OP's article shows how people should be convinced.
I get what you are saying and half-agree.
Where I respectfully disagree is that people have always been this reasonable.By writing "this is how it's done correctly, with respect and logic" I'm juxtaposing Sen. Sander's approach vs. "vote with us or else you're -insert insult here-" posts, comments, and memes. I've seentons ofsome attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right thatsomemost have always tried to be empathetic and civil.I also agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I'm a consciously "have no heroes" person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I'll agree with all the time.
Eh. It started respectful, but dealing with the same tired "never genocide" canvassing of every single election thread gets old. And the people making those arguments know exactly what they're doing.
Do you expect the opposition to fall over themselves to be respectful and accommodating while the other is not playing by the same rules?
Does that remind you of something the Dems were very heavily criticized for doing in the recent past?
I expect libs to be respectful and accommodating to the left... And come out swinging against the right... What irritates me is when the libs take the left for granted and continuously move right on issues to try and scrape more shit off Trump's boots
I do not respect the self identified "leftists" that do nothing but make demands and then move the goalposts.
You expect libs to be respectful, yet give no respect yourself.
Check you privilege. Your single issue voting is throwing minorities and women under the bus.
I do not respect that.
Demanding that Dems represent us if they want our vote is not disrespectful... Demanding that the left support you while spitting in their faces is disrespectful
You are throwing foreigners under the bus. You only care about women and minorities if they are american, the rest of us can get bombed with white phosphorus for all you care, scum.
You're funny.
You voting for the establishment is throwing foreigners under the bus. America first, am I right?
The same canvassing from the same accounts, no less.
Does anybody miss Linkerbaan?
Me either.
I had honestly forgotten Linkerbaan existed. But now that you mention it, it's been quite noticeably less toxic on Lemmy for some time. Linkerbaan's participation was just complete bad faith. UniversalMonk, too.
There are plenty of other personalities on here who are more than willing to accuse everyone else of being "genocide-loving centrists." So the community has lost nothing.
Did they finally get banned or just quit? I never see them post shit anymore. Absolutely a propagandist and I'm surprised more people didn't see it months ago
Banned around a month ago.
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.
And that works for the retarded mods as well.
outrageousmatter @aidan@lemmy.world @jordanlund@lemmy.world HLMenckenFan 🌱 🐄🌱
Fuck you for your political censorship
Is ban dodging cutting into your paycheck, comrade...?
Probably time to go set up a new account. See you in a few.
I'd forgotten about that poster. At some point I realized every post was about Israel or Gaza, commented as much, and was faced with a technical denial. Like, ok there may have been 1% that wasn't on that topic, but I didn't stumble across it leafing back through a few pages of the profile.
I agree. Those anti-genocide people are very mean.
It absolutely did not, because the center only respects the right.
I hope you see your mum burned with white phosphorus, since your essentially voting for it to happen to other people. Imagine the delicate smell of the flesh of the woman you love burning while she desperetely trying to get it off her. But this shit is like napalm she cannot do anything.
That is what happens to people in the middle east. As an american, you are complicit with this shit. Your favorite genocider is complicit with this shit. I hope you gets trialed for conspiracy to commit genocide. And executed.
And that works for the retarded mods as well.
outrageousmatter @aidan@lemmy.world @jordanlund@lemmy.world HLMenckenFan 🌱 🐄🌱
Fuck you for your political censorship
Generally speaking, people AREN'T saying "vote with us or else you're a piece of shit" to anyone who is (good faith) complaining about Biden's horrendous record on genocide and Kamala being unlikely to be much better. We almost always point out "Yeah... it sucks. But do you think trump will be any better? and get responses along the lines of "WELL I WON'T VOTE FOR GENOCIDE!! THAT IS MY LINE!!!"
It has nothing to do with the way the message was said and pretending otherwise is an active insult to everyone who gives a shit.
The only reason this MIGHT make a dent is because it is Bernie Sanders. The guy who opened a lot of people's minds to the reality that there is something better than late stage capitalism and beltway liberals.
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023. The issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not "Trump worse" is working as a strategy. What Bernie is saying here isn't new, and maybe he's saying it better, or its better coming from him than other surrogates. ymmv. I would argue you've already captured all the votes you can get using this approach. Now what about the votes you aren't getting with the argument "Trump worse"?
I think without a pivot on this Harris is leaving the easiest 1-3% of voters to get on the table. And they've been there since the last day of the convention, where Harris conveniently showed Arab-americans the exit rather than the podium. Its a small group, but its more than sufficient to be a deal breaker in this election. You can't force them to go for Harris, and no amount of telling them they have to has changed their minds.
Going forwards, how do you get these voters to vote for Harris?
I am an AAPI. I already know no candidate gives a shit about me. Hell, it says something when frigging Yang seemed palatable for like... five minutes. And with the way geopolitics is shaking up? If you thought the anti-asian hate was bad during the lockdown parts of COVID, just wait until we are in a cold war gone lukewarm against china like we are with russia.
And that is why a lot of AAPI folk kind of go right wing. They, like their parents, decide it is easier to try to ingratiate themselves wit hteh white supremacists than to show solidarity. But the rest of us? We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are "model minorities" and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
But also? That isn't the only issue. There are AAPI women and AAPI lgbtq+ folk and so forth. And thus, you actually look at the issues and vote in your interests even if neither party really gives a shit. Because you have more than one issue (and, even that, one party is still a lot less shitty)
So if "Well... neither is great but one is a whole lot worse in these very concrete ways" isn't working?
You get a celebrity influencer to say it. Like Sanders.
Its like the trolley problem exemplified. Blue-dog democrats be like "well someone needs to get crushed under the weight of this thing".
Yes...that's the point of the trolley problem. Someone does get crushed.
The crushing is the point, yes.
And you get to pick how much crushing happens.
Which sounds like gloating from people who saw all the people tied to one set of tracks and used it as an excuse to tie that one guy to the other track.
And that is NOT how the trolley problem works. None of us tied anyone to the tracks. There's no one else. There's just people on the tracks, and a trolley, and a lever, and you. All of the set-up happened before you got there. You are only able to make a decision about the lever.
That's because it's an abstract thought experiment. Here in concrete reality, Democratic politicians are willingly selling weapons to a genocidal apartheid regime, and refuse to stop. They could untie the guy any time they want, but are super worried that the guys who tied everyone else to the other set of tracks might not like them if they do.
Doesn't matter. All YOU can do is pull the lever, or not. You can't change who's on the track. You can't remove the trolley. You can't untie the people or lift up the tracks. In this sense, the trolley problem is almost a 1-for-1 representation of voting (in a swing state, at least). You can pull the lever, or not. Those are your options.
To people who get what they want no matter the state of the lever.
I voted for Harris. I'm not going to proclaim that your genocide is the moral genocide just because you demand that I do.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Edit: I'm adjusting my stance because while I can find abuse in many threads most of the time it WASN'T in the top comments. Seeing what actually makes it to the top proves I was wrong and I won't cherry-pick comments further down to argue I'm "right". "Vote bullying" exists so I'm not deleting, but when I looked for other examples I found that most of the time upvotes are for reasonable folks.
I'll give one high-ish profile example that illustrates what I'm talking about: /c/politicalmemes has nearly 6k users, which is fairly big for Lemmy. In the last 6 months, the #3 top post with 1.91k upvotes is about how not voting because you feel there's no good choice means Republicans win and not seeing that means "you have a problem". The top comment in that post is about how people saying Biden isn't doing enough are propagandists. The #3 top comment literally tells dissenters to "do a lot more shutting the fuck up".
As I've said from the beginning: it's not universal, but it shows up regularly enough to make me appreciate Bernie's approach.
The meme sub. Where people intentionally try to make jokes and antagonize each other?
Edit: While I stand by what I say below about the sentiments being genuine, when actually reading top comments across boards - in most threads the top comments are pretty civil and reasonable. I was wrong.
I believe the meme and comments actually reflect the views of the people posting them. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the sentiments come across as very genuine and so I don't think it's accurate to dismiss them as "just joking". I also picked it because I remembered it and so it was faster than trawling through other threads for examples.
"I've never seen liberals act like assholes, so it must actually be the leftists who are assholes"