So the half-cocked product release strategy doesn't work and its time to punish labor for the mistakes of executives.
"punish labor" 😂
They'll find new jobs. Companies have no loyalty to employees and employees have no loyalty to companies. Nobody is in it for love. They got paychecks, now they'll find someone else to give them paychecks. It's transactional.
Do you think that being laid off is a good thing?
The employees are suffering the negative consequences of the leadership's piss-poor decisionmaking, that was their point. Leadership hasn't seen any turnover or resignations, to my knowledge.
Is it so wrong in your mind to expect a little personal responsibility? Or do you find it just that leadership can fuck up consequence-free and shitcan others for their failures?
If that's how you'd run your company, I'd run the other way as both a worker and a consumer.
I've been laid off. It sucks, but you find a new job, and in the tech world that usually comes with a pay bump.
I'm not saying it's murder, or some other event people don't recover from. We both agree it's a bad thing.
And we both agree it's a bad thing happening to the wrong people, based on who fucked up, right?
That's all the person you initially replied to is saying. It's an injustice, even though it's not a crime. It's a minor form of class warfare, where the wealthy fuck up and leave the working class holding the bag.
Well that's the thing, I don't really consider it injustice. I consider it as something that sucks, but things that suck happen. It's just kind of part of life. You get past it. I guess that's my view.
Like a farmer experiencing a drought. That's not injustice, it just sucks.
Layoffs aren't the laws of physics, my guy. This isn't a bird randomly shitting on your hand, this is a decision made by people to fire exclusively people who were not at fault for the reasons they needed to do layoffs to begin with.
It's a choice, that's why it's injustice.
It's exactly that. There's no one person, no group of people, that can control a market. It's a force, an abstract concept at this point. Any thoughts that it can be controlled is hubris or naivety.
I'm not talking about controlling the market, I'm talking about deciding who to fire.
What's your ideal situation? They create make work jobs? Give the development and production teams some brooms and fire the custodial staff instead? Their job is done. Time to find new ones.
My personal ideal? A democratically run workplace with no permanent executive leadership. Rotating leadership duties, with maybe a Roman Republic style emergency power dictatorship, with a simple majority needed to end said emergency powers.
Ideal response to this situation? Fire the leadership who fucked up, or cut their pay at least, before firing anyone else. They make much more than ordinary workers.
You ever seen a camel? It's a horse that's been designed by a committee. Democratically run things don't accomplish shit because you can never get groups of people to agree on anything.
You ever seen a camel? It's a horse that's been designed by a committee. Democratically run things don't accomplish shit because you can never get groups of people to agree on anything.
If there's no money and no work to be done, the natural outcome are layoffs. What alternative is there? That the company continues to pay all the staff from the management's pockets? That's not exactly a great scenario for the workers either, since there's no prospect for growth, and everyone will still be out of a job once the company inevitably fails.
If you see management making bad decisions, start searching, don't wait for the layoffs.
Isnt that like, a usual part in the game development cycle? I've seen news reports like this for over 15 years now. Developer starts with ideas for a new game, small team. Developer starts actual production of game, team grows. Developer realizes how much work there actually is to be done, team grows even further. Game is almost done and in a good state, team starts to shrink since there is no longer enough work for everyone. Part is laid off and part is reassigned to early development of DLC. Game is released, and smaller team is able to do patchwork. Developer starts with idea for new game, cycle repeats.
Perhaps the main reason we havent seen a lot of these news blurbs over the past few years is that A: CDPR is a good punchingbag. Common memory of the target audience hold the bad release of CP2077, so its easy to get back in the habit and haul in these clicks. And B: TripleA game development mas mostly conglomerated into a few big developers/publishers with several teams around the world. That means that when one project winds down, surplus personnel might be easily integrated into a different team that is just winding up. CDPR is one of the few tripleA developers not able to do this (yet).
No, this is not really typical for a large studio. I've been in the games industry for 10 years and losing your team every project is a studio killer. No one does this anymore aside from really small indie studios that can't afford to keep the team together. This is not normal for a studio that knows what it's doing.
This is not normal for a studio that knows what it’s doing.
And CDPR absolutely doesn't. Their games may look pretty but the quality is always absolute dogshit and takes years to patch until it's not a buggy mess
Saying that GDPR doesn't know what it's doing is like saying MGM doesn't know what it's doing. They aren't the best in the industry but they've still made some quality products. They know far more about what they are doing than an indie studio that hasn't even released their first game.
That's a low bar lol
GDPR fans always come up with the most ridiculous excuses for GDPR's terrible quality. "Well at least they're better than an indie that's never released a game", like seriously?
I'm not a GDPR fan at all. They put out one game I even got through and it was mediocre. I'm just not a fan of the general gaming public thinking they know more than a studio full of veterans.
Ah the classic "if you haven't done X yourself you have no right to criticize X." I trust you never criticize books, movies, paintings, games etc of you're not in those fields?
And, funnily enough, I spent almost 15 years in the games industry as a developer, but I suppose I'm still not allowed to say anything bad about GDPR's quality because, uh, reasons
I'm not saying that they can't criticize. I'm saying it's still a studio that I would say knows what it's doing more so than a studio that is going to lay off a bunch of people just because the project they were working on ended. You've been in the industry for 15 years, how many times have you been laid off at the end of a project at a well-formed studio? In my experience, it rarely happens. If you have a good team you don't break it up willingly.
That's all I said. It doesn't make business sense to do so and CDPR and any well-put-together studio knows this. Any business knows this. To say that "Well, it's CDPR thus they are going to make stupid mistakes that a novice indie team would make" is silly and not seated in reality.
Not really the case, I was hired 1.5 year ago. There were a bunch of new hires in the meantime and after the layoffs the team looks really similar to what it looked like at the point at which I was hired.
If that's the case, it's not the norm. Most studios do not lay people off every release. They get them working on another project immediately. Typically a project starts up as the game is wrapping up for release then people switch gradually.
It was the "traditional" pipeline and to be honest only good for the "publisher" and some big enough studio, but really aren't that good for those job hunting game devs(and part of the churn and burn culture, can't and won't trying to form union if your turn over is high.)
It is how you get broken games every new release cause the guys that sticks around as supervisor didn't actually code the previous games or know the actual workflow/pipeline that makes the last game(their last touching code/software might be like 10+ years ago), the middle leads etc might have burned out during last crunch and go to next company after their vacation because fuck this crunch thing I have a family, then then newbies wearing shiny shipped game under their belt move to next company for a better position/pay. So no one or very few actually knows how last time things were done and may or may not have a voice during decision making. Every game, you build the team almost ground up and thus, make similar and more mistakes with ever increasing pressure from schedule and scale.
It's not an healthy cycle, it is something that creative industry should break away from.
Like the leadership that forced a release of an unfinished game? Doubt.
lol since when have business "leaders" ever had to face consequences of their own idiotic decisions?
Management types are often power-tripping narcissistic idiots who'll make dumb-as-fuck decisions, and when things go to shit they'll just fire the people doing the actual work and congratulate themselves on being such savvy businesspeople
Yeah, management positions are often filled by people who:
A) Want to get a higher paying job and don't care about the product or the industry necessarily (MBA-circlejerk types).
B) Are Devs/Artists/Creatives that wanted increased compensation, and the only way up was as a manager where they have less aptitude.
Executive staff needs to better integrate management as "servant leaders" within teams, and compensate EVERYONE better
Our current economic system was essentially designed to elevate the worst of humanity to the most powerful positions, which is why modern industrial society is more or less fucked. What's going on right now is sociopathic executives are bleeding the world dry as fast as they can before things collapse due to increasing social instability brought on by climate change, hoping to live out their lives in some extremely well defended compound while us plebs die in the billions. And make no mistake, they won't have any trouble recruiting bootlickers to be their armed guards.
Humanity is fucked.
They will, however, have trouble stopping those guards from turning on them, once the collapse of society renders their wealth meaningless.
I wouldn't be so sure. They wouldn't only have monetary wealth, and o top of that some people are incredibly eager to just believe and serve others who they say they should be in charge. Aristocracies were essentially built on top of the idea that some people just decided they were better than others and deserved to be on top, and everybody mainly just went along with it
Because they wanted a slice of the pie. No civilization, no economy, no pie.
Nah. Only the hard workers.
The financialization and corporatization of the game industry and it’s consequences has been a disaster for the average player and game dev.
You should go to Poland and do some Johnny Silverhand type shit.
That happens literyally every time with these hackjob of a company
Just speculation here, but is this a sign that CDPR is tilting more towards mainstreaming GOG over prioritizing game development? Valve did exactly that with Steam and they very, very rarely release games they make any more.
Steam is a cash cow that literally just prints money for them. I'd imagine CDPR corpos to be salivating over that kind of low maintenance income that comes with owning a large digital distribution gaming platform.
Seems like they tried to grow the company waaaaaaaaay too fast (practically doubled their number of employees since TW3 was released).
Obviously this sucks, but it's good that they're not unceremoniously dropping people with zero notice (looking at you, Activision). Doubt we can expect an environment where gamedev layoffs suddenly disappear, but people actually getting advanced warning about this stuff would be a huge improvement on the industry's norms.
So the half-cocked product release strategy doesn't work and its time to punish labor for the mistakes of executives.
"punish labor" 😂
They'll find new jobs. Companies have no loyalty to employees and employees have no loyalty to companies. Nobody is in it for love. They got paychecks, now they'll find someone else to give them paychecks. It's transactional.
Do you think that being laid off is a good thing?
The employees are suffering the negative consequences of the leadership's piss-poor decisionmaking, that was their point. Leadership hasn't seen any turnover or resignations, to my knowledge.
Is it so wrong in your mind to expect a little personal responsibility? Or do you find it just that leadership can fuck up consequence-free and shitcan others for their failures?
If that's how you'd run your company, I'd run the other way as both a worker and a consumer.
I've been laid off. It sucks, but you find a new job, and in the tech world that usually comes with a pay bump.
I'm not saying it's murder, or some other event people don't recover from. We both agree it's a bad thing. And we both agree it's a bad thing happening to the wrong people, based on who fucked up, right?
That's all the person you initially replied to is saying. It's an injustice, even though it's not a crime. It's a minor form of class warfare, where the wealthy fuck up and leave the working class holding the bag.
Well that's the thing, I don't really consider it injustice. I consider it as something that sucks, but things that suck happen. It's just kind of part of life. You get past it. I guess that's my view.
Like a farmer experiencing a drought. That's not injustice, it just sucks.
Layoffs aren't the laws of physics, my guy. This isn't a bird randomly shitting on your hand, this is a decision made by people to fire exclusively people who were not at fault for the reasons they needed to do layoffs to begin with.
It's a choice, that's why it's injustice.
It's exactly that. There's no one person, no group of people, that can control a market. It's a force, an abstract concept at this point. Any thoughts that it can be controlled is hubris or naivety.
I'm not talking about controlling the market, I'm talking about deciding who to fire.
What's your ideal situation? They create make work jobs? Give the development and production teams some brooms and fire the custodial staff instead? Their job is done. Time to find new ones.
My personal ideal? A democratically run workplace with no permanent executive leadership. Rotating leadership duties, with maybe a Roman Republic style emergency power dictatorship, with a simple majority needed to end said emergency powers.
Ideal response to this situation? Fire the leadership who fucked up, or cut their pay at least, before firing anyone else. They make much more than ordinary workers.
You ever seen a camel? It's a horse that's been designed by a committee. Democratically run things don't accomplish shit because you can never get groups of people to agree on anything.
You ever seen a camel? It's a horse that's been designed by a committee. Democratically run things don't accomplish shit because you can never get groups of people to agree on anything.
Nice
If there's no money and no work to be done, the natural outcome are layoffs. What alternative is there? That the company continues to pay all the staff from the management's pockets? That's not exactly a great scenario for the workers either, since there's no prospect for growth, and everyone will still be out of a job once the company inevitably fails. If you see management making bad decisions, start searching, don't wait for the layoffs.
Isnt that like, a usual part in the game development cycle? I've seen news reports like this for over 15 years now. Developer starts with ideas for a new game, small team. Developer starts actual production of game, team grows. Developer realizes how much work there actually is to be done, team grows even further. Game is almost done and in a good state, team starts to shrink since there is no longer enough work for everyone. Part is laid off and part is reassigned to early development of DLC. Game is released, and smaller team is able to do patchwork. Developer starts with idea for new game, cycle repeats.
Perhaps the main reason we havent seen a lot of these news blurbs over the past few years is that A: CDPR is a good punchingbag. Common memory of the target audience hold the bad release of CP2077, so its easy to get back in the habit and haul in these clicks. And B: TripleA game development mas mostly conglomerated into a few big developers/publishers with several teams around the world. That means that when one project winds down, surplus personnel might be easily integrated into a different team that is just winding up. CDPR is one of the few tripleA developers not able to do this (yet).
No, this is not really typical for a large studio. I've been in the games industry for 10 years and losing your team every project is a studio killer. No one does this anymore aside from really small indie studios that can't afford to keep the team together. This is not normal for a studio that knows what it's doing.
And CDPR absolutely doesn't. Their games may look pretty but the quality is always absolute dogshit and takes years to patch until it's not a buggy mess
Saying that GDPR doesn't know what it's doing is like saying MGM doesn't know what it's doing. They aren't the best in the industry but they've still made some quality products. They know far more about what they are doing than an indie studio that hasn't even released their first game.
That's a low bar lol
GDPR fans always come up with the most ridiculous excuses for GDPR's terrible quality. "Well at least they're better than an indie that's never released a game", like seriously?
I'm not a GDPR fan at all. They put out one game I even got through and it was mediocre. I'm just not a fan of the general gaming public thinking they know more than a studio full of veterans.
Ah the classic "if you haven't done X yourself you have no right to criticize X." I trust you never criticize books, movies, paintings, games etc of you're not in those fields?
And, funnily enough, I spent almost 15 years in the games industry as a developer, but I suppose I'm still not allowed to say anything bad about GDPR's quality because, uh, reasons
I'm not saying that they can't criticize. I'm saying it's still a studio that I would say knows what it's doing more so than a studio that is going to lay off a bunch of people just because the project they were working on ended. You've been in the industry for 15 years, how many times have you been laid off at the end of a project at a well-formed studio? In my experience, it rarely happens. If you have a good team you don't break it up willingly.
That's all I said. It doesn't make business sense to do so and CDPR and any well-put-together studio knows this. Any business knows this. To say that "Well, it's CDPR thus they are going to make stupid mistakes that a novice indie team would make" is silly and not seated in reality.
Not really the case, I was hired 1.5 year ago. There were a bunch of new hires in the meantime and after the layoffs the team looks really similar to what it looked like at the point at which I was hired.
If that's the case, it's not the norm. Most studios do not lay people off every release. They get them working on another project immediately. Typically a project starts up as the game is wrapping up for release then people switch gradually.
It was the "traditional" pipeline and to be honest only good for the "publisher" and some big enough studio, but really aren't that good for those job hunting game devs(and part of the churn and burn culture, can't and won't trying to form union if your turn over is high.)
It is how you get broken games every new release cause the guys that sticks around as supervisor didn't actually code the previous games or know the actual workflow/pipeline that makes the last game(their last touching code/software might be like 10+ years ago), the middle leads etc might have burned out during last crunch and go to next company after their vacation because fuck this crunch thing I have a family, then then newbies wearing shiny shipped game under their belt move to next company for a better position/pay. So no one or very few actually knows how last time things were done and may or may not have a voice during decision making. Every game, you build the team almost ground up and thus, make similar and more mistakes with ever increasing pressure from schedule and scale.
It's not an healthy cycle, it is something that creative industry should break away from.
Like the leadership that forced a release of an unfinished game? Doubt.
lol since when have business "leaders" ever had to face consequences of their own idiotic decisions?
Management types are often power-tripping narcissistic idiots who'll make dumb-as-fuck decisions, and when things go to shit they'll just fire the people doing the actual work and congratulate themselves on being such savvy businesspeople
Yeah, management positions are often filled by people who:
A) Want to get a higher paying job and don't care about the product or the industry necessarily (MBA-circlejerk types).
B) Are Devs/Artists/Creatives that wanted increased compensation, and the only way up was as a manager where they have less aptitude.
Executive staff needs to better integrate management as "servant leaders" within teams, and compensate EVERYONE better
And C) literal psychopaths.
Our current economic system was essentially designed to elevate the worst of humanity to the most powerful positions, which is why modern industrial society is more or less fucked. What's going on right now is sociopathic executives are bleeding the world dry as fast as they can before things collapse due to increasing social instability brought on by climate change, hoping to live out their lives in some extremely well defended compound while us plebs die in the billions. And make no mistake, they won't have any trouble recruiting bootlickers to be their armed guards.
Humanity is fucked.
They will, however, have trouble stopping those guards from turning on them, once the collapse of society renders their wealth meaningless.
I wouldn't be so sure. They wouldn't only have monetary wealth, and o top of that some people are incredibly eager to just believe and serve others who they say they should be in charge. Aristocracies were essentially built on top of the idea that some people just decided they were better than others and deserved to be on top, and everybody mainly just went along with it
Because they wanted a slice of the pie. No civilization, no economy, no pie.
Nah. Only the hard workers.
The financialization and corporatization of the game industry and it’s consequences has been a disaster for the average player and game dev.
You should go to Poland and do some Johnny Silverhand type shit.
That happens literyally every time with these hackjob of a company
Just speculation here, but is this a sign that CDPR is tilting more towards mainstreaming GOG over prioritizing game development? Valve did exactly that with Steam and they very, very rarely release games they make any more.
Steam is a cash cow that literally just prints money for them. I'd imagine CDPR corpos to be salivating over that kind of low maintenance income that comes with owning a large digital distribution gaming platform.
Seems like they tried to grow the company waaaaaaaaay too fast (practically doubled their number of employees since TW3 was released).
Obviously this sucks, but it's good that they're not unceremoniously dropping people with zero notice (looking at you, Activision). Doubt we can expect an environment where gamedev layoffs suddenly disappear, but people actually getting advanced warning about this stuff would be a huge improvement on the industry's norms.