You know what? Valve gets a pass here. They tried really hard to make Mac gaming a viable thing and it just didn’t work out.
They tried but I wouldn't describe it as trying hard.
Steam client is still Intel only and runs via emulation on ARM Macs. They didn't bother to update their games with 64-bit binaries so most of their catalogue stopped working years ago. Their only remaining "modern" game, Dota2, keeps going because it's the only game to make that jump.
They're not referring to any recent efforts. Valve's push for gaming on mac happened years back, before the ARM transition was even a rumor. And even then, it was apple that stopped trying first, before valve did.
Valve DID try, but you're referring to things from AFTER they decided to cut their losses. Of course it's lackluster.
Did Valve do anything after initial Steam and Source game ports? Steam client is in dire condition since forever and it's been years since Catalina dropped support for 32-bit. If they provided 64-bit binaries their games would still be running through Rosetta2 on ARM Macs.
It's also reasonable to expect that at least Steam client would get ARM update 3 years after first M1 Macs even if they didn't support their games anymore since Valve makes money predominantly on their cut of sales.
Sales of what ARM games? Apple only just released a bodged together "porting" toolkit and still expects devs to put in the legwork.
Proton was originally intended to run on MacOS, too, but that was dropped as the workload was never gonna end. Apple pulling the rug out on stuff like openGL, and making it clear that vulcan on Mac was never happening.
Not sure what you're getting at, there are Mac games released all the time on Steam and Valve keeps getting their cut. The bare minimum anyone expects is that Steam itself gets ported to ARM because it's a web browser and those do horrendously when ran through Rosetta.
ARM Macs can still play 64-bit Intel games of which there is significant back catalogue and new games are released with ARM binaries even on Steam.
The point is that apple is expecting a chicken to hatch out of an egg that doesn't exist.
Devs will use Metal and apples other proprietary systems on mobile, because a gaming market that has passed critical mass already exists there.
Apple is expecting devs to be willing to do the same on desktop and laptop, before the gaming market for those platforms have hit critical mass. Yes, there are "some" games, but right now, apple simply isn't doing what's necessary for it to take off for real. Devs, gamers, and Valve, know that.
Valve was willing to put in the resources back when apple was doing the same, but they stopped long ago and have only been doing the bare minimum of lip service, since. So, Valve packed up, and became re-focused on linux instead.
I'm expecting Valve to keep Steam operational since I own plenty of Mac games there. Valve doesn't require anything from Apple to deliver a working storefront.
So you're expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Valve has clearly decided, that it's not worth the effort. Apple is hostile to developers and creates extra work because it wants all things to go through their systems.
And I agree. That apples actions make the correct business decision for valve to screw over a minority of users like you, is on valve, but also apple. That Valve needs nothing from apple to run on their systems is a patently stupid claim. Yes, they can make the changes necessary to get the client running a little better. But why would they? The whole gaming ecosystem is doomed if apples non-existent support for it fails to improve.
The difference on platforms like linux, is that valve has joined as a contributor for the whole ecosystem, when they need changes in the OS itself, they themselves can make them. And on windows the graphics pipeline, DirectX, is already industry standard, and the OS ALSO still supports all older versions, AND openGL and Vulcan, too.
Gaming on mac, is dead right now.
So you're expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Yes, that's where 30% cut should go.
I'm not the guy you are replying to, but that is just not how the world works.
Valve's answer is no. Put simply even though they take 30%, its very clear that mac users do not make up a huge enough user base to put in the work. In other words the costs of mac development might exceed the income they'd get from max players (but this is just speculation, the point is, its very that Valve thinks its not profitable to develop for mac)
Why put in the work for linux then you might ask?
Well linux uses the same APIs in most cases as windows (Vulkan, OpenGL, and in case of directx, vulkan can "emulate" directx), so its a lot less work to be compatible with linux than it is with mac.
Also Valve owns a console which uses linux as an os, so they do not have to rely on propriatary windows.
Anyway my point is development costs are probably higher than the income they get from mac players.
Not to mention that osX users likely buy a lot fewer games.
Meanwhile linux is exploding, I've bought more games to play on steamdeck than my dad ever did to play on his mac.
This discussion started with Valve supposedly making an effort to support Macs. For quite some time now I was speaking about Steam itself. It works but is so shit it's no wonder they're bleeding users before they even buy or launch a game.
If you take 30% of sales it's reasonable to expect you're going to support your platform for a reasonable amount of time. We are still talking about staggering amounts of money even if it's 1.4% user base that probably doesn't purchase as much as Windows users.
With what we know about how Valve is being run internally it's likely that it's just not fun anymore and less profitable than alternatives. Incidentally, this leads to a very Google-like behavior which back in the day led me to drop Android for iOS, which in turn led to getting a Mac.
I wonder if part of the reason is that apple deprecated opengl on mac os and replaced it with their property graphics api Metal. I image it would be a lot of work to port the source the engine to Metal just for a small amount of users.
Not just OpenGL, they also moved to ARM64 CPU architecture in 2020, which isn't any longer out of the box compatible with x86_x64 software. It requires extra work and optimization. Using a Mac for gaming is like shooting yourself in the foot. This is also unlikely to change, as moving to ARM64 would lose us all backwards compatibility. I always considered this move of Apple to be a mistake.
Gaming is far from their target market. ARM64 was a smart move for their market. The most commonly used apps are all faster with better battery life, and the transition was pretty smooth.
Yeah, when I had a Mac it felt like a big smartphone, and it's pretty good at being that.
Yup. The only reason I play games on macOS is because work gives me a Mac and I want to play games occasionally on it. My main gaming rig is Linux, macOS is just there for the odd 30-min gaming break.
I'm both shocked that nobody's glued together Unicorn Engine and Wine to make WinTel software run on anything, and obviously disinclined to dive into that deep dark hole myself.
CS2 uses Vulkan not opengl, apple still don't support it tho
This is a big one. Another one is that developing software for Macs is a huge headache compared to Windows, Linux, and BSD. The tooling simply feels much more awkward to use than most things available on other platforms, and the application packaging is so easy to mess up (not that every developer doesn't forget the occasional DLL...)
Macs are not for gaming, Apple made that very clear.
Only now that they've seen how much income they could have made, have they tried to backtrack.
Long live Linux Gaming.
TBF, they'd rather kill gaming on Macs entirely than not be the platform all those games are purchased through.
Could also be because of the Arm chips which add more burden on the developers who have to account not only for another OS but also for a completely different CPU instruction set.
How did Larian do it? Its not really a major studio, just average size. And Baldurs Gate 3 runs perfectly on it. The Mac Book Pro with the M2 gets rock staple 60 FPS on max in 1440p - even though its not the most demanding game, still really impressive for a Laptop.
Not taking anyone's side here, I'm merely saying that it adds burden (and thus costs) on the developers. Now whether the additional burden is worth it depends on how big the burden is (do they have lots of hand-optimized x86 assembly? or are they using platform agnostic libraries?) and the expected return on that investment, and companies will see these things differently. For Valve it wasn't worth it.
This is probably not as big of a deal as the lack of common APIs like Vulcan. I doubt Valve has much (if any) raw x86 code in their game engine, and it would probably compile to arm just fine. You still have to set up a new build chain for this, though, which is a pain.
Boohoo, won't anybody invest in Mac :'(
I'm thankful it's Linux native (still not unproblematic to run tho), so I feel for the Mac people. It's a bad feeling to be left out. I still want to play lost ark for example!
Ha! Got'em!
If you build it, they will come.
no?, Valve tried, never gave any result, and linux surpasses it in a year of thet launch of steam deck, Apple also don't help fucking with opengl,vulkan and switching to Arm
My brother, the past twenty years, they've tried.
BG3 on Mac has enough players? It's a 🐔 and 🥚 problem.
If you make weed legal, the number of people breaking the law will go down.
If you don't make any games for an OS, you won't have any players on that OS.
You know what? Valve gets a pass here. They tried really hard to make Mac gaming a viable thing and it just didn’t work out.
They tried but I wouldn't describe it as trying hard.
Steam client is still Intel only and runs via emulation on ARM Macs. They didn't bother to update their games with 64-bit binaries so most of their catalogue stopped working years ago. Their only remaining "modern" game, Dota2, keeps going because it's the only game to make that jump.
They're not referring to any recent efforts. Valve's push for gaming on mac happened years back, before the ARM transition was even a rumor. And even then, it was apple that stopped trying first, before valve did.
Valve DID try, but you're referring to things from AFTER they decided to cut their losses. Of course it's lackluster.
Did Valve do anything after initial Steam and Source game ports? Steam client is in dire condition since forever and it's been years since Catalina dropped support for 32-bit. If they provided 64-bit binaries their games would still be running through Rosetta2 on ARM Macs.
It's also reasonable to expect that at least Steam client would get ARM update 3 years after first M1 Macs even if they didn't support their games anymore since Valve makes money predominantly on their cut of sales.
Sales of what ARM games? Apple only just released a bodged together "porting" toolkit and still expects devs to put in the legwork.
Proton was originally intended to run on MacOS, too, but that was dropped as the workload was never gonna end. Apple pulling the rug out on stuff like openGL, and making it clear that vulcan on Mac was never happening.
Not sure what you're getting at, there are Mac games released all the time on Steam and Valve keeps getting their cut. The bare minimum anyone expects is that Steam itself gets ported to ARM because it's a web browser and those do horrendously when ran through Rosetta.
ARM Macs can still play 64-bit Intel games of which there is significant back catalogue and new games are released with ARM binaries even on Steam.
The point is that apple is expecting a chicken to hatch out of an egg that doesn't exist.
Devs will use Metal and apples other proprietary systems on mobile, because a gaming market that has passed critical mass already exists there.
Apple is expecting devs to be willing to do the same on desktop and laptop, before the gaming market for those platforms have hit critical mass. Yes, there are "some" games, but right now, apple simply isn't doing what's necessary for it to take off for real. Devs, gamers, and Valve, know that.
Valve was willing to put in the resources back when apple was doing the same, but they stopped long ago and have only been doing the bare minimum of lip service, since. So, Valve packed up, and became re-focused on linux instead.
I'm expecting Valve to keep Steam operational since I own plenty of Mac games there. Valve doesn't require anything from Apple to deliver a working storefront.
So you're expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Valve has clearly decided, that it's not worth the effort. Apple is hostile to developers and creates extra work because it wants all things to go through their systems.
And I agree. That apples actions make the correct business decision for valve to screw over a minority of users like you, is on valve, but also apple. That Valve needs nothing from apple to run on their systems is a patently stupid claim. Yes, they can make the changes necessary to get the client running a little better. But why would they? The whole gaming ecosystem is doomed if apples non-existent support for it fails to improve.
The difference on platforms like linux, is that valve has joined as a contributor for the whole ecosystem, when they need changes in the OS itself, they themselves can make them. And on windows the graphics pipeline, DirectX, is already industry standard, and the OS ALSO still supports all older versions, AND openGL and Vulcan, too.
Gaming on mac, is dead right now.
Yes, that's where 30% cut should go.
I'm not the guy you are replying to, but that is just not how the world works.
According to steam's own survey (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam?platform=combined) osx (aka mac) users make up a whopping 1.4% of steam's players. Now the question is: is it worth it to put in the work for mac? (work which i might add only works on mac as the apis that work on linux and windows do NOT work properly on mac)
Valve's answer is no. Put simply even though they take 30%, its very clear that mac users do not make up a huge enough user base to put in the work. In other words the costs of mac development might exceed the income they'd get from max players (but this is just speculation, the point is, its very that Valve thinks its not profitable to develop for mac)
Why put in the work for linux then you might ask? Well linux uses the same APIs in most cases as windows (Vulkan, OpenGL, and in case of directx, vulkan can "emulate" directx), so its a lot less work to be compatible with linux than it is with mac. Also Valve owns a console which uses linux as an os, so they do not have to rely on propriatary windows.
Anyway my point is development costs are probably higher than the income they get from mac players.
Not to mention that osX users likely buy a lot fewer games.
Meanwhile linux is exploding, I've bought more games to play on steamdeck than my dad ever did to play on his mac.
This discussion started with Valve supposedly making an effort to support Macs. For quite some time now I was speaking about Steam itself. It works but is so shit it's no wonder they're bleeding users before they even buy or launch a game.
If you take 30% of sales it's reasonable to expect you're going to support your platform for a reasonable amount of time. We are still talking about staggering amounts of money even if it's 1.4% user base that probably doesn't purchase as much as Windows users.
With what we know about how Valve is being run internally it's likely that it's just not fun anymore and less profitable than alternatives. Incidentally, this leads to a very Google-like behavior which back in the day led me to drop Android for iOS, which in turn led to getting a Mac.
I wonder if part of the reason is that apple deprecated opengl on mac os and replaced it with their property graphics api Metal. I image it would be a lot of work to port the source the engine to Metal just for a small amount of users.
Not just OpenGL, they also moved to ARM64 CPU architecture in 2020, which isn't any longer out of the box compatible with x86_x64 software. It requires extra work and optimization. Using a Mac for gaming is like shooting yourself in the foot. This is also unlikely to change, as moving to ARM64 would lose us all backwards compatibility. I always considered this move of Apple to be a mistake.
Gaming is far from their target market. ARM64 was a smart move for their market. The most commonly used apps are all faster with better battery life, and the transition was pretty smooth.
Yeah, when I had a Mac it felt like a big smartphone, and it's pretty good at being that.
Yup. The only reason I play games on macOS is because work gives me a Mac and I want to play games occasionally on it. My main gaming rig is Linux, macOS is just there for the odd 30-min gaming break.
I'm both shocked that nobody's glued together Unicorn Engine and Wine to make WinTel software run on anything, and obviously disinclined to dive into that deep dark hole myself.
CS2 uses Vulkan not opengl, apple still don't support it tho
This is a big one. Another one is that developing software for Macs is a huge headache compared to Windows, Linux, and BSD. The tooling simply feels much more awkward to use than most things available on other platforms, and the application packaging is so easy to mess up (not that every developer doesn't forget the occasional DLL...)
Macs are not for gaming, Apple made that very clear.
Only now that they've seen how much income they could have made, have they tried to backtrack.
Long live Linux Gaming.
TBF, they'd rather kill gaming on Macs entirely than not be the platform all those games are purchased through.
Could also be because of the Arm chips which add more burden on the developers who have to account not only for another OS but also for a completely different CPU instruction set.
How did Larian do it? Its not really a major studio, just average size. And Baldurs Gate 3 runs perfectly on it. The Mac Book Pro with the M2 gets rock staple 60 FPS on max in 1440p - even though its not the most demanding game, still really impressive for a Laptop.
Not taking anyone's side here, I'm merely saying that it adds burden (and thus costs) on the developers. Now whether the additional burden is worth it depends on how big the burden is (do they have lots of hand-optimized x86 assembly? or are they using platform agnostic libraries?) and the expected return on that investment, and companies will see these things differently. For Valve it wasn't worth it.
This is probably not as big of a deal as the lack of common APIs like Vulcan. I doubt Valve has much (if any) raw x86 code in their game engine, and it would probably compile to arm just fine. You still have to set up a new build chain for this, though, which is a pain.
Boohoo, won't anybody invest in Mac :'(
I'm thankful it's Linux native (still not unproblematic to run tho), so I feel for the Mac people. It's a bad feeling to be left out. I still want to play lost ark for example!
Ha! Got'em!
If you build it, they will come.
no?, Valve tried, never gave any result, and linux surpasses it in a year of thet launch of steam deck, Apple also don't help fucking with opengl,vulkan and switching to Arm
My brother, the past twenty years, they've tried.
BG3 on Mac has enough players? It's a 🐔 and 🥚 problem.
If you make weed legal, the number of people breaking the law will go down.
If you don't make any games for an OS, you won't have any players on that OS.