Nakba doesn't convey the severity of this. At least in English. An ethnic cleansing, a genocide, a destruction of the people. More descriptive terms for the English audience
The Palestinian Holocaust
Nakba conveys it just fine if you have read history.
Nakba is a term I've never heard of until 2 weeks ago.
I'm not the most well-read person on the planet, but I have a decent amount of world history knowledge. I imagine most people don't know what nakba means if they're not already involved with Palestine history.
Raz Segal (Hebrew: רז סגל) is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University
In the linked above article, he walks through the definition of genocide, and the actions taken. It fits the definition.
When you're a genocideologist everything looks like genocide.
It's inherent to his genocideology
Average person says it's a genocide: "It's not a genocide! What do you know?"
Literal expert in genocide, who's also Jewish, says it's a genocide and gives details why: "Of course it looks like a genocide to them! They're always looking for genocides!"
What do you imagine an 'expert in genocide' knows more about genocide than you do?
An expert in the field has spent a lifetime studying, writing, debating, and thinking about the field. We can survey the course catalog at Stockton on Genocide studies to get a first taste in what a expert would be able to contribute.
These specifically stand out as focuses relevant to our conversation today 'Witness to Genocide, Genocide War Crimes and Law, War Nationalism and Genocide, Ordinary Evil'... tell me what is your philosophy on Ordinary Evil?
You gave such a thoughtful well crafted response to a person who is clearly being a troll. But thank you for that, at least you provide good reading materials.
I try not to think of them as trolls, more like explain it like I'm five users. Imagine most of the internet is basically sugar hyped toddlers with the attention span of goldfish, and a rough grasp of the English language.
Explain it like I'm 5, is probably still too high a bar. :)
You can think about them whatever you like, doesn't make them any less trolls. Also they want to get a reaction out of you, and all you are doing is feeding that.
Creating content for the lemmy verse :)
That's a long list, but is there anything in there you didn't figure out yourself?
I'm clearly not as gifted and as well read as you, I have to do research before I know a subject.
That's a long list, but is there anything in there on genocide you couldn't figure out yourself?
All of it, the context, the implications, the patterns...
I am not as intelligent and intuitive as you, I have to do research practice, and communicate before I can compete with an expert in a field.
Are you a literalist where all the people fitting the demographic must be killed to the last person in order for it to be literal genocide? Because right now your argument is “Nuh uh! No it isn’t!” with zero backup in the face of historical evidence and the words of an expert. Even in America we committed a genocide of our natives, yet some of them live, some of them were made to move elsewhere, and not all of them were killed off.
It’s abundantly clear you willfully refuse to understand what “genocide” is.
Well the 'cide' part refers to 'killing'
How would you differentiate between 'forcefully made to move' and 'killed' if you can't imagine using different words for them?
They have different phrases
Ethnic Cleansing - Clearing a ethnicity from a area
Genocide - The pogrom being persecuted in Gaza now.
Does studying the occurrences and causes of genocide make you unable to correctly identify them? I would think it to be the opposite, them being able to better identify and understand current genocides or events and actions that might lead to one.
Genocide is a rather simple word. It's a contraction of geno (race) with cide (murder/killing). Anyone telling you they've needed to study the meaning of the word for more than 2 minutes is either a moron or a liar
You have spent more then 2 minutes discussing genocide here with us today, have you not used more then 2 minutes of thought in all your posts?
Writing a book on genocide would take more then 2 minutes.
Writing a catalog of all known genocides would take more then 2 minutes.
Writing up the definition of genocide would take more then 2 minutes, getting two people to agree on a definition would take FOREVER. Getting 152 countries to agree on the definition of genocide would take years...
Taking a complex issue, and being reductive to the point of absurdity isn't being helpful.
On the contrary, I believe trying to expand a definition to the point of absurdity isn't helpful.
The idea behind the term genocide is clear and simple: the intent to destroy an ethnicity.
People are trying to call Israels intent to disperse the ethnic Arabs from Palestine a genocide (to add more weight to the crime), when even the UN definition is clear this is not included.
I'm going to refer you to the genocide scholar article above above. I'm no longer going to debate with you
So tomorrow if I come armed and evict you from your home, along with your family that would be okay, because there are other places where you can go and live? Is this what you are trying to tell us?
Let's be charitable. That's not what they're saying.
They're saying it doesn't fit the murder everybody definition of genocide, which is a fair position. However, Genocide is more broadly defined by the UN, and ethnically cleansing a region, is a part of an overall genocide.
Update: I should not have been charitable...
Well that's the UN's fault for wording ethnic cleansing as a form of genocide, which in reality it can be a part of.
But in the real world it's just liars first lobbying to broaden a written definition to later abuse it.
What language would you use to describe removing an ethnicity from an area, so that it may be ethnically pure for a different ethnicity?
The people who wrote and vote for the UN convention against genocide, includes Israel.
So we're measuring them by their own metric, using their own legislation, which they wrote and voted for. Seems fair.
I suggest not copying Israel's stupid definitions for anything
Genocide: murdering everyone of a certain ethnicity
Ethnic cleansing: removing everyone of a certain ethnicity from an area
Of course both can go hand in hand. Threatening murder, often by setting some prolific examples, is a way to convince people to leave.
There's a difference between WW2 nazi's checking the Spanish border making sure jews trying to escape are sent back to the extermination camps, and zionist settlers cutting down orchards and shooting a few farmers to scare them off.
What's happening in the West Bank is extremely deplorable but it's no different from what's happening in, for example, Western Sahara or Nagorno Kharabag
I'm sorry you have a fight with the English language, but this term is well defined. It is defined in a legal sense, by both people who have suffered from genocide, and people who want to prevent genocide. Including the government of Israel which is committing a genocide, by their own definition, against the people of Palestine.
If you want to argue that English should be different, Wikipedia talks, and wikitionary talk pages are good places to do it. You could also reach out to your local State department, and petition them to get the definition of genocide changed.
We here on Lemmy cannot resolve your dispute with the English language, sorry
I already know people like to broaden the term (and ignore the - cide) to serve their own needs. But alas, I'm here to educate, not follow.
Please educate the 1948 UN delegates.
Your fight is with the dictionary, not with me
Both the dictionary and the UN already agree with me
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.
Genocide: murdering everyone of a certain ethnicity
Nope, "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part", which is the case with Israel.
Ethnic cleansing: removing everyone of a certain ethnicity from an area
Nope, nothing says you have to displace everyone, just that you attempt it and have shown on numerous occasions that you intend to do it (which is the case with Israel)
You can say whatever you want, but making up new definitions (or maybe "oversimplified" definitions) of a thing is not a good way to have a discussion.
Go apply to the UN. They have some vacancies now that Israel bombed so many UN workers in their home. I'm sure they will appreciate all your thoughtful commentary!
Are you a fucking retard?
No need for the ableist slur. There are much better, creative, and entertaining ways to insult people who act in bad faith and have the self-awareness of a modern LLM.
is forcing people to go anywhere else actually "ethnically cleansing" though? to me, that terminology is best described as rounding everyone of a certain ethnic background up, shooting them all, burying the bodies, and then moving on to the next group.
this isnt that.
If you want an area of land with a single ethnicity, to clean the area so it is pure for that ethnicity, that is a form of ethnic cleansing.
If you take a city and say all people who are not genetically x, or believe in religion y, must leave. That is a form of ethnic cleansing, you are cleaning the area for a specific ethnicity.
The cleansing doesn't have to involve death, could just involve displacement, or even The ability to have children.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
eh... using a definition that broad would mean that most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing. a lot of african countries would qualify too, as would many european nations (other than, you know, germany).
The word has a very clear meaning. I'm sorry you don't like that definition, but the reason we have dictionaries is so that we can agree on definitions.
How would you describe ethnically purifying an area?
Yes, ethnic cleansing is very common in human history... You're right. Lots of countries are guilty of it. Doesn't make it any less bad just common
if it's so common that literally every country in recorded history is guilty of it (and they are if the accepted definition is so broad) then it's just another part of governance - unworthy of discussion even.
Ethnic cleansing is unworthy of discussion, because every country has participated in it in some point in their history?
So from that standpoint, you're happy to get ethnically cleansed, right? It shouldn't be worth discussion, if a government agent wants to hand over your area to a different ethnicity. You wouldn't have anything to say about that right? Your family would be cool with it too right?
And if the people who have been ethnically cleansed, try to ethnically cleanse their oppressors, that's not newsworthy either right? So there shouldn't have been any news reporting of hamas's ethnic cleansing attempts? Right? It's not newsworthy, why are we even talking about it...
Countries also execute people, we still talk about murder.
i love getting cleansed - so much so that I do it every morning (irish spring is the best soap ever). seriously though - no one here participating in this discussion/argument/whatever has ever been in even the remotest danger of being ethnically cleansed. what we say doesnt matter. you and I, any anyone who views these comments now or in years to come, we dont make policy. our opinion is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
you say "oh no, it's bad!". ok, great. it's good to have a position. my position is that our positions dont matter. the news doesnt matter. you think policy makers actually care what nonsense the journalists say? queue my endlessly contagious derisive laughter.
Holy hypocrisy, Batman! You can't just say that none of our opinions matter after spending several paragraphs over several comments sharing your own objectively wrong take. Not without showing everyone what a condescending idiot you are, at least 🤷
They got backed into a logical corner, that they couldn't figure out how to defend, so they went into it doesn't matter anyway rather than agree with me.
Honestly, I take it as a compliment. It means they are thinking logically, they just don't have the personal fortitude to admit it publicly but that will come with time.
How do you wake up in the morning? If nothing you do matters. How do you continue to go on in this life?
And just because you believe nothing you do matters, doesnt mean it applies to other people.
Other people matter, I matter.. I'm even going to go out on a limb and say you matter. You live, you interact with people, you're part of a society, there's somebody out there who would be unhappy when you die. You matter. You matter in your own little corner of the world, and your attitudes and your interactions impact the people around you. You matter.
So I'm going to continue to tell people
genocide is bad
ethnic cleansing is bad
killing people is bad
I'm going to tell everybody, and I'm going to fight with anybody who disagrees, because it matters.
Update: One more point about how small the world is, 6° of separation is a real thing, everyone is within six degrees of every other person on this planet. Meaning if you actually talk to your social networks, you will find people who have suffered horrible injustices that are directly related to you.
Any one of us could hop on an airplane right now, and end up in part of the world that is suffering terribly within a few hours.
We can actively work together, to make the world better, or we can work together to make the world worse, or we can sit idly by will other people make the world worse. I know which one of these options I prefer.
hey man if what you need to do to get you through your day is to spout off "things are bad" like some off-kilter street preacher, then knock yourself out. dont let little old me and logical argument stop you. you do you - you know how to do it best! be the best you that you can be!
biological imperatives dictate that I get up in the morning, I perform my ablutions, I consume a tasty caffeinated beverage and I go off to my job like a fine, upstanding, tax-paying, obedient citizen of this great nation because I am a proud member of it. but you're right, nothing I do matters. all I strive to be, all I work towards, it's this black pit of woe and despair. but... perhaps what we do matters! maybe! I mean, not a fucking chance, but maybe I'm wrong! maybe there's a shining light and the end of this desolate existence! but i doubt it.
oh yeah, you're totally right about that 6 degrees of separation thing - the world we live in is getting smaller each and every day. as the world condenses into the singularity (as foretold) I have indeed found myself interacting with people that have different experiences. like, we brought in a new guy at work last year - he's from Afghanistan, he worked against his people and his nation to get in good with the Americans and when they left so did he. his insights into what's going on over there have been really interesting. but nothing that he does is going to change what's happening to his extended family back in the old country. theres going to be famine there - perhaps not this year but very, very soon. and there's nothing anyone can do to prevent it. nothing really matters.
is genocide bad? yeah. does it matter if you tell people that? not really
is ethnic cleansing bad? most folks would say yes. does it matter much? nope
is it bad to kill others? even if you've been granted absolution by your government/religious faith/community leaders? even if the voices in your head require it? maybe. there's not a real, concrete answer for that one. the reality is that it depends on the situation. sometimes it's perfectly acceptable to kill others - shit, you might even get a medal and raise for it if you're lucky!
Slavery has been an institution in almost all if not all contries at some point. That doesn't make it any less horrible, that other atrocities are also common doesn't make them less atrocious either.
it's interesting to note that slavery was still a thing in some countries even up until the 1960s. in fact, the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam outlawed slavery in 1990 - 33 years ago. how progressive! how totally hip and with-the-times!
and this discussion is quibbling about a little thing like ethnic cleansing. pish posh!
Slavery is still a thing today. Slavery is still a thing in the United States even, compelling labor for prisoners is totally legal. And that's a form of slavery
lol that's not slavery. prisoners on work detail get paid. slaves dont get paid. ergo, prisoners are not slaves.
most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing
Yes, they are/have been. Almost all countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past or present. That doesn't make this not ethnic cleansing or not atrocious.
See, you're not playing the game by the rules certain groups are playing.
you're right. I'm not. you gotta buck the trend, for novelty's sake if nothing else - it keeps the squares on their toes. I find it sad that you got downvoted (not not voting means anything on this platform) for disagreeing with the herd mentality, so I didja a solid and poked the updoot button.
was a fun discussion, for a little while. it seems to have devolved into the insulting phase now. always does. it's like... we (humanity) just cant rise above our base impulses. if someone refuses to listen, they start getting insulted - like, subconsciously some people just cant accept that their opinion is literally meaningless. it's just... weird.
Israel wants to relocate a ethnic people. Certain group like to call that genocide because it sounds worse. Genocide actually means killing off a ethnic group. Population transfer is what Israel wants to do.
Population transfer is not equal to ethic or tribal killing. Someone at the UN needs to learn latin.
Ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide.
I think the politicians and diplomats who got together in 1948 were cognizant of that.
Consider
You ethnically cleanse a population, they resist, fighting breaks out. The ethnic cleansing moves into a pogrom, repeat... Genocide.
Yes, but their intentions are a forced migration or population transfer. Saying cleaning or genocide means the wholesale murder of the population. So you're using loaded language which is weakening your argument.
Israel has made it clear they no longer welcome Palestinians along their border. They have been working with neighbors to accept them and essentially the two state option is no longer an option. That isn't ethnic cleansing or genocide, that is a population transfer.
Now had both sides worked together and forged a diplomatic relationship the two state option would have been successful, but that didn't occur. Both sides were continually hostile to one another. Now the Palestinian people are going to be relocated and will once again be stateless.
Forced relocation of the population, is ethnic cleansing by definition.
I'm using dictionary definitions, internationally agreed definitions, I'm using the words as their intended in international law and in common usage. I believe that strengthens my argument
That's loaded language which is a falsification what is actually occurring.
We all agree that Israel wants to relocate the Palestinian people outside of their border. It's agreed that Israel has no intention of murdering or enslaving the population. That's not cleansing, that's a forced migration or population transfer.
We all know why you want to use loaded language because it generates a image in the minds of low information people of murder and enslavement.
It's literally the definition of the phrase.
Ethnically cleansing an area, is ensuring an ethnicity is removed, or cleansed from the area.
I'm sorry you disagree with the dictionary, reality must be really difficult to deal with. But we have to deal with the reality we're presented with, and not the reality we would like
I did not agree with you on either of those statements.
You haven't brought it up, but I might as well head off the next issue, it is a genocide:
well, you wont. but sure, for the sake of argument, lets say you did. let's further assume that I am not ensconced in my comfortable house in a first world nation just like you, but instead eke out a miserable existence watching goats eat scrub. yes, i would move and be grateful to finally have an excuse to do so.
so, just to reiterate: moving from one place to another isnt genocide. imagine that!
People are not grateful for being displaced. Especially when you don't have any economic prospects in the place you're displaced to.
I don't know what your least favorite country in the world is, but for the sake of argument let's say it's Yemen. If I forced you to leave under threat of death, to move to Yemen, without your social network, without your wealth, without knowledge of the local language, without a special skill set, without anything except one pair of clothes. You would not be ecstatic about that, you would not be grateful.
I would hazard a guess that most people do not like being forced to do anything, even if it's in their best interest
shepherds already have extremely limited economic prospects. it's not like they're skilled artisans, constructing unique crafts that can only be manufactured using materials that can only be sourced from that one geographic location. no, they oversee domesticated herd-beasts that dont have any natural predators in their habitat and feed themselves on whatever plants grow wherever they happen to be - lichen, thorn bushes, dried straw, etc.
it's only a occupation by definition, but a pet rock could be just as good of a shepherd - it takes about as much "skill" to do. outside of the inner desert regions & cities, a shepherd can exist, if not thrive - ie: they can do the same thing wherever they go. herding communities are usually insular in nature - they dont need to know the local language. their source of food, their entire reason for being, those are animals and they feed themselves - the animals are usually their currency as well.
maybe a change of scenery is exactly what they need - they may even be thankful for it in the months and years to come.
As someone who herds sheep for a living, I'm going to guess you've never herded sheep in your life lol.
I tended some goats a few times as a favor to a neighbor - well, made sure they didnt get out of their fenced off area of 3 acres. honestly found it to be very dull and uninspiring. perhaps I was doing it wrong? maybe there's a way to spice it up? do you dress up in a wolf costume to keep things lively? toss lit fireworks at the sheeples?
do tell, I'm sure the stories you've got will be absolutely riveting!
I see you've changed the goal post from being grateful immediately, to being thankful in the future.
Just because you don't respect somebody's occupation, doesn't mean they don't value their own occupation. Independence has huge psychological benefits for people.
Not to mention refugees, are moved to places that already have economies, and land use, so there's not going to be open land for shepherd to feed a flock on. They're going to be competing with the locals.
I really don't know why you are wasting your time arguing with people like him, he won't see reason no matter how hard you try.
Because if we don't argue, then the misanthropes get to have the final word. And then other normal people will look at the discussions, and think the misanthropes and the hateful people are in the majority.
We have to participate so that our voices are heard, so that our peers, and are online peers, can see that they they are not alone.
We can't allow the normalization of hate and violence to destroy society, and that means we have to participate
agreeing with your ideology is never going to happen. believing in lies just doesnt jive with "seeing reason" for me.
Oh, so you're blind!
He's not blind, he's got five fingers stuffed in each ear and he's screaming "ALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU"
you're totally correctamundo about my complete and total lack of respect for their occupation - I reiterate, a garden gnome would be just as effective at herding animals as a shepherd. is being forced to do the same thing that your father did because he did the same thing his father did actually independence? it seems to me that's flawed thinking. the world is constantly in flux - a rigid, uncompromising, unyielding nature isnt going to get you very far. that's even more true when you're going to get to experience new vistas.
changed the goal post? should we be as unyielding as you're insinuating that the shepherds are, or should be? should they be ungrateful in the now and regretful in the future? does it even matter? will they have to compete, strive, suffer? of course they will! suffering is part of the human condition - it has ever been thus.
Your nihilist philosophy aside... We all live in a world, and we all have different life experiences, if you find yourself saying a different life experience isn't worth living, that must be applied to you as well.
As long as people aren't interfering with each other, they should be allowed to live however they like... Be it goat herding, or being a professional sophist troll online
you know, I've thought about that a lot - it's the great philosophical question of our age: does anything that we do actually matter? are we, as individuals, just so insignificant that our actions (whatever they may be) are meaningless? how do we, individually, impact the world? how do we strike our brand onto the graven slate of existence, proving that we're here, we matter, we existed?! perhaps by exchanging barbs online.
thank you for the compliment - I too thought that my logical argument, nay, position was indeed crafty in nature.
you're an idiot, you're not exchanging anything, you're confusing agressivity with wit
Oh now I see, you truly believe those people are subhuman and their lives don't matter. Glad that you have finally shown your true nature, so that I can simply block you, and have my feed not stained with people like you!
Nakba doesn't convey the severity of this. At least in English. An ethnic cleansing, a genocide, a destruction of the people. More descriptive terms for the English audience
The Palestinian Holocaust
Nakba conveys it just fine if you have read history.
Nakba is a term I've never heard of until 2 weeks ago.
I'm not the most well-read person on the planet, but I have a decent amount of world history knowledge. I imagine most people don't know what nakba means if they're not already involved with Palestine history.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Nakba&hl=en-US
For me it's like when Jewish people say something is a pogrom. The historical context behind it has some bearing.
per they article they're being forced to leave & go anywhere else. that's not genocide.
a textbook case of genocide - Raz Segal - JewishCurrents
I'm no genocideoligist, but Raz Segal is.
Raz Segal (Hebrew: רז סגל) is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University
In the linked above article, he walks through the definition of genocide, and the actions taken. It fits the definition.
When you're a genocideologist everything looks like genocide.
It's inherent to his genocideology
Average person says it's a genocide: "It's not a genocide! What do you know?"
Literal expert in genocide, who's also Jewish, says it's a genocide and gives details why: "Of course it looks like a genocide to them! They're always looking for genocides!"
What do you imagine an 'expert in genocide' knows more about genocide than you do?
An expert in the field has spent a lifetime studying, writing, debating, and thinking about the field. We can survey the course catalog at Stockton on Genocide studies to get a first taste in what a expert would be able to contribute.
These specifically stand out as focuses relevant to our conversation today 'Witness to Genocide, Genocide War Crimes and Law, War Nationalism and Genocide, Ordinary Evil'... tell me what is your philosophy on Ordinary Evil?
https://www.stockton.edu/general-studies/holocaust-and-genocide-studies.html
Raz Segal appears to have done lots of research of the societal bystander effect, where a genocide can happen without anyone getting involved....
One of his lectures, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJH4NDfINE8
he is well spoken, his lecture took more then 2 minutes...
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=EJH4NDfINE8
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You gave such a thoughtful well crafted response to a person who is clearly being a troll. But thank you for that, at least you provide good reading materials.
I try not to think of them as trolls, more like explain it like I'm five users. Imagine most of the internet is basically sugar hyped toddlers with the attention span of goldfish, and a rough grasp of the English language.
Explain it like I'm 5, is probably still too high a bar. :)
You can think about them whatever you like, doesn't make them any less trolls. Also they want to get a reaction out of you, and all you are doing is feeding that.
Creating content for the lemmy verse :)
That's a long list, but is there anything in there you didn't figure out yourself?
I'm clearly not as gifted and as well read as you, I have to do research before I know a subject.
That's a long list, but is there anything in there on genocide you couldn't figure out yourself?
All of it, the context, the implications, the patterns...
I am not as intelligent and intuitive as you, I have to do research practice, and communicate before I can compete with an expert in a field.
Are you a literalist where all the people fitting the demographic must be killed to the last person in order for it to be literal genocide? Because right now your argument is “Nuh uh! No it isn’t!” with zero backup in the face of historical evidence and the words of an expert. Even in America we committed a genocide of our natives, yet some of them live, some of them were made to move elsewhere, and not all of them were killed off.
It’s abundantly clear you willfully refuse to understand what “genocide” is.
Well the 'cide' part refers to 'killing'
How would you differentiate between 'forcefully made to move' and 'killed' if you can't imagine using different words for them?
They have different phrases
Ethnic Cleansing - Clearing a ethnicity from a area
Genocide - The pogrom being persecuted in Gaza now.
Ethnic Cleansing is part of a overall Genocide.
You really should read the article, it clarifies things greatly. https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide.
Stubborn one, aren’t ya.
Does studying the occurrences and causes of genocide make you unable to correctly identify them? I would think it to be the opposite, them being able to better identify and understand current genocides or events and actions that might lead to one.
Genocide is a rather simple word. It's a contraction of geno (race) with cide (murder/killing). Anyone telling you they've needed to study the meaning of the word for more than 2 minutes is either a moron or a liar
You have spent more then 2 minutes discussing genocide here with us today, have you not used more then 2 minutes of thought in all your posts?
Writing a book on genocide would take more then 2 minutes. Writing a catalog of all known genocides would take more then 2 minutes. Writing up the definition of genocide would take more then 2 minutes, getting two people to agree on a definition would take FOREVER. Getting 152 countries to agree on the definition of genocide would take years...
Taking a complex issue, and being reductive to the point of absurdity isn't being helpful.
On the contrary, I believe trying to expand a definition to the point of absurdity isn't helpful.
The idea behind the term genocide is clear and simple: the intent to destroy an ethnicity.
People are trying to call Israels intent to disperse the ethnic Arabs from Palestine a genocide (to add more weight to the crime), when even the UN definition is clear this is not included.
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
..........
Do you consider the Nakba as genocide?
I'm going to refer you to the genocide scholar article above above. I'm no longer going to debate with you
So tomorrow if I come armed and evict you from your home, along with your family that would be okay, because there are other places where you can go and live? Is this what you are trying to tell us?
Let's be charitable. That's not what they're saying.
They're saying it doesn't fit the murder everybody definition of genocide, which is a fair position. However, Genocide is more broadly defined by the UN, and ethnically cleansing a region, is a part of an overall genocide.
Update: I should not have been charitable...
Well that's the UN's fault for wording ethnic cleansing as a form of genocide, which in reality it can be a part of.
But in the real world it's just liars first lobbying to broaden a written definition to later abuse it.
What language would you use to describe removing an ethnicity from an area, so that it may be ethnically pure for a different ethnicity?
Ethnic purification?
Get ready for it...
Drumroll
"Ethnic Cleansing"
Applause
I misunderstood your previous argument.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Genocide_Convention
The people who wrote and vote for the UN convention against genocide, includes Israel.
So we're measuring them by their own metric, using their own legislation, which they wrote and voted for. Seems fair.
I suggest not copying Israel's stupid definitions for anything
Genocide: murdering everyone of a certain ethnicity
Ethnic cleansing: removing everyone of a certain ethnicity from an area
Of course both can go hand in hand. Threatening murder, often by setting some prolific examples, is a way to convince people to leave.
There's a difference between WW2 nazi's checking the Spanish border making sure jews trying to escape are sent back to the extermination camps, and zionist settlers cutting down orchards and shooting a few farmers to scare them off.
What's happening in the West Bank is extremely deplorable but it's no different from what's happening in, for example, Western Sahara or Nagorno Kharabag
Wikipedia Wikipedia 2 UN Human rights watch Wiktionary
I'm sorry you have a fight with the English language, but this term is well defined. It is defined in a legal sense, by both people who have suffered from genocide, and people who want to prevent genocide. Including the government of Israel which is committing a genocide, by their own definition, against the people of Palestine.
If you want to argue that English should be different, Wikipedia talks, and wikitionary talk pages are good places to do it. You could also reach out to your local State department, and petition them to get the definition of genocide changed.
We here on Lemmy cannot resolve your dispute with the English language, sorry
I already know people like to broaden the term (and ignore the - cide) to serve their own needs. But alas, I'm here to educate, not follow.
Please educate the 1948 UN delegates.
Your fight is with the dictionary, not with me
Both the dictionary and the UN already agree with me
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/genocide
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Nope, "Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part", which is the case with Israel.
Nope, nothing says you have to displace everyone, just that you attempt it and have shown on numerous occasions that you intend to do it (which is the case with Israel)
You can say whatever you want, but making up new definitions (or maybe "oversimplified" definitions) of a thing is not a good way to have a discussion.
Go apply to the UN. They have some vacancies now that Israel bombed so many UN workers in their home. I'm sure they will appreciate all your thoughtful commentary!
Are you a fucking retard?
No need for the ableist slur. There are much better, creative, and entertaining ways to insult people who act in bad faith and have the self-awareness of a modern LLM.
is forcing people to go anywhere else actually "ethnically cleansing" though? to me, that terminology is best described as rounding everyone of a certain ethnic background up, shooting them all, burying the bodies, and then moving on to the next group.
this isnt that.
If you want an area of land with a single ethnicity, to clean the area so it is pure for that ethnicity, that is a form of ethnic cleansing.
If you take a city and say all people who are not genetically x, or believe in religion y, must leave. That is a form of ethnic cleansing, you are cleaning the area for a specific ethnicity.
The cleansing doesn't have to involve death, could just involve displacement, or even The ability to have children.
Ethnic cleansing wikipedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
eh... using a definition that broad would mean that most asian countries are guilty of ethnic cleansing. a lot of african countries would qualify too, as would many european nations (other than, you know, germany).
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethnic_cleansing
The word has a very clear meaning. I'm sorry you don't like that definition, but the reason we have dictionaries is so that we can agree on definitions.
How would you describe ethnically purifying an area?
Yes, ethnic cleansing is very common in human history... You're right. Lots of countries are guilty of it. Doesn't make it any less bad just common
if it's so common that literally every country in recorded history is guilty of it (and they are if the accepted definition is so broad) then it's just another part of governance - unworthy of discussion even.
Ethnic cleansing is unworthy of discussion, because every country has participated in it in some point in their history?
So from that standpoint, you're happy to get ethnically cleansed, right? It shouldn't be worth discussion, if a government agent wants to hand over your area to a different ethnicity. You wouldn't have anything to say about that right? Your family would be cool with it too right?
And if the people who have been ethnically cleansed, try to ethnically cleanse their oppressors, that's not newsworthy either right? So there shouldn't have been any news reporting of hamas's ethnic cleansing attempts? Right? It's not newsworthy, why are we even talking about it...
Countries also execute people, we still talk about murder.
i love getting cleansed - so much so that I do it every morning (irish spring is the best soap ever). seriously though - no one here participating in this discussion/argument/whatever has ever been in even the remotest danger of being ethnically cleansed. what we say doesnt matter. you and I, any anyone who views these comments now or in years to come, we dont make policy. our opinion is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
you say "oh no, it's bad!". ok, great. it's good to have a position. my position is that our positions dont matter. the news doesnt matter. you think policy makers actually care what nonsense the journalists say? queue my endlessly contagious derisive laughter.
Holy hypocrisy, Batman! You can't just say that none of our opinions matter after spending several paragraphs over several comments sharing your own objectively wrong take. Not without showing everyone what a condescending idiot you are, at least 🤷
They got backed into a logical corner, that they couldn't figure out how to defend, so they went into it doesn't matter anyway rather than agree with me.
Honestly, I take it as a compliment. It means they are thinking logically, they just don't have the personal fortitude to admit it publicly but that will come with time.
How do you wake up in the morning? If nothing you do matters. How do you continue to go on in this life?
And just because you believe nothing you do matters, doesnt mean it applies to other people.
Other people matter, I matter.. I'm even going to go out on a limb and say you matter. You live, you interact with people, you're part of a society, there's somebody out there who would be unhappy when you die. You matter. You matter in your own little corner of the world, and your attitudes and your interactions impact the people around you. You matter.
So I'm going to continue to tell people
I'm going to tell everybody, and I'm going to fight with anybody who disagrees, because it matters.
Update: One more point about how small the world is, 6° of separation is a real thing, everyone is within six degrees of every other person on this planet. Meaning if you actually talk to your social networks, you will find people who have suffered horrible injustices that are directly related to you.
Any one of us could hop on an airplane right now, and end up in part of the world that is suffering terribly within a few hours.
We can actively work together, to make the world better, or we can work together to make the world worse, or we can sit idly by will other people make the world worse. I know which one of these options I prefer.
hey man if what you need to do to get you through your day is to spout off "things are bad" like some off-kilter street preacher, then knock yourself out. dont let little old me and logical argument stop you. you do you - you know how to do it best! be the best you that you can be!
biological imperatives dictate that I get up in the morning, I perform my ablutions, I consume a tasty caffeinated beverage and I go off to my job like a fine, upstanding, tax-paying, obedient citizen of this great nation because I am a proud member of it. but you're right, nothing I do matters. all I strive to be, all I work towards, it's this black pit of woe and despair. but... perhaps what we do matters! maybe! I mean, not a fucking chance, but maybe I'm wrong! maybe there's a shining light and the end of this desolate existence! but i doubt it.
oh yeah, you're totally right about that 6 degrees of separation thing - the world we live in is getting smaller each and every day. as the world condenses into the singularity (as foretold) I have indeed found myself interacting with people that have different experiences. like, we brought in a new guy at work last year - he's from Afghanistan, he worked against his people and his nation to get in good with the Americans and when they left so did he. his insights into what's going on over there have been really interesting. but nothing that he does is going to change what's happening to his extended family back in the old country. theres going to be famine there - perhaps not this year but very, very soon. and there's nothing anyone can do to prevent it. nothing really matters.
is genocide bad? yeah. does it matter if you tell people that? not really
is ethnic cleansing bad? most folks would say yes. does it matter much? nope
is it bad to kill others? even if you've been granted absolution by your government/religious faith/community leaders? even if the voices in your head require it? maybe. there's not a real, concrete answer for that one. the reality is that it depends on the situation. sometimes it's perfectly acceptable to kill others - shit, you might even get a medal and raise for it if you're lucky!
Slavery has been an institution in almost all if not all contries at some point. That doesn't make it any less horrible, that other atrocities are also common doesn't make them less atrocious either.
it's interesting to note that slavery was still a thing in some countries even up until the 1960s. in fact, the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam outlawed slavery in 1990 - 33 years ago. how progressive! how totally hip and with-the-times!
and this discussion is quibbling about a little thing like ethnic cleansing. pish posh!
Slavery is still a thing today. Slavery is still a thing in the United States even, compelling labor for prisoners is totally legal. And that's a form of slavery
lol that's not slavery. prisoners on work detail get paid. slaves dont get paid. ergo, prisoners are not slaves.
Yes, they are/have been. Almost all countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past or present. That doesn't make this not ethnic cleansing or not atrocious.
See, you're not playing the game by the rules certain groups are playing.
you're right. I'm not. you gotta buck the trend, for novelty's sake if nothing else - it keeps the squares on their toes. I find it sad that you got downvoted (not not voting means anything on this platform) for disagreeing with the herd mentality, so I didja a solid and poked the updoot button.
was a fun discussion, for a little while. it seems to have devolved into the insulting phase now. always does. it's like... we (humanity) just cant rise above our base impulses. if someone refuses to listen, they start getting insulted - like, subconsciously some people just cant accept that their opinion is literally meaningless. it's just... weird.
anyway, toodles!
Israel wants to relocate a ethnic people. Certain group like to call that genocide because it sounds worse. Genocide actually means killing off a ethnic group. Population transfer is what Israel wants to do.
Latin: genos (race or tribe) and cide (killing).
So about that....
Wikipedia Wikipedia 2 UN Human rights watch Wiktionary
Population transfer is not equal to ethic or tribal killing. Someone at the UN needs to learn latin.
Ethnic cleansing is a component of genocide.
I think the politicians and diplomats who got together in 1948 were cognizant of that.
Consider
You ethnically cleanse a population, they resist, fighting breaks out. The ethnic cleansing moves into a pogrom, repeat... Genocide.
Yes, but their intentions are a forced migration or population transfer. Saying cleaning or genocide means the wholesale murder of the population. So you're using loaded language which is weakening your argument.
Israel has made it clear they no longer welcome Palestinians along their border. They have been working with neighbors to accept them and essentially the two state option is no longer an option. That isn't ethnic cleansing or genocide, that is a population transfer.
Now had both sides worked together and forged a diplomatic relationship the two state option would have been successful, but that didn't occur. Both sides were continually hostile to one another. Now the Palestinian people are going to be relocated and will once again be stateless.
ethnic cleansing Wiktionary
The mass expulsion or killing of people belonging to one ethnic group by those of another.
It seems we're using different definitions of ethnic cleansing. I present to you the dictionary and Wikipedia.
Wikipedia
Forced relocation of the population, is ethnic cleansing by definition.
I'm using dictionary definitions, internationally agreed definitions, I'm using the words as their intended in international law and in common usage. I believe that strengthens my argument
That's loaded language which is a falsification what is actually occurring.
We all agree that Israel wants to relocate the Palestinian people outside of their border. It's agreed that Israel has no intention of murdering or enslaving the population. That's not cleansing, that's a forced migration or population transfer.
We all know why you want to use loaded language because it generates a image in the minds of low information people of murder and enslavement.
It's literally the definition of the phrase.
Ethnically cleansing an area, is ensuring an ethnicity is removed, or cleansed from the area.
I'm sorry you disagree with the dictionary, reality must be really difficult to deal with. But we have to deal with the reality we're presented with, and not the reality we would like
I did not agree with you on either of those statements.
You haven't brought it up, but I might as well head off the next issue, it is a genocide:
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
It is agreed that it is a genocide
well, you wont. but sure, for the sake of argument, lets say you did. let's further assume that I am not ensconced in my comfortable house in a first world nation just like you, but instead eke out a miserable existence watching goats eat scrub. yes, i would move and be grateful to finally have an excuse to do so.
so, just to reiterate: moving from one place to another isnt genocide. imagine that!
People are not grateful for being displaced. Especially when you don't have any economic prospects in the place you're displaced to.
I don't know what your least favorite country in the world is, but for the sake of argument let's say it's Yemen. If I forced you to leave under threat of death, to move to Yemen, without your social network, without your wealth, without knowledge of the local language, without a special skill set, without anything except one pair of clothes. You would not be ecstatic about that, you would not be grateful.
I would hazard a guess that most people do not like being forced to do anything, even if it's in their best interest
shepherds already have extremely limited economic prospects. it's not like they're skilled artisans, constructing unique crafts that can only be manufactured using materials that can only be sourced from that one geographic location. no, they oversee domesticated herd-beasts that dont have any natural predators in their habitat and feed themselves on whatever plants grow wherever they happen to be - lichen, thorn bushes, dried straw, etc.
it's only a occupation by definition, but a pet rock could be just as good of a shepherd - it takes about as much "skill" to do. outside of the inner desert regions & cities, a shepherd can exist, if not thrive - ie: they can do the same thing wherever they go. herding communities are usually insular in nature - they dont need to know the local language. their source of food, their entire reason for being, those are animals and they feed themselves - the animals are usually their currency as well.
maybe a change of scenery is exactly what they need - they may even be thankful for it in the months and years to come.
As someone who herds sheep for a living, I'm going to guess you've never herded sheep in your life lol.
I tended some goats a few times as a favor to a neighbor - well, made sure they didnt get out of their fenced off area of 3 acres. honestly found it to be very dull and uninspiring. perhaps I was doing it wrong? maybe there's a way to spice it up? do you dress up in a wolf costume to keep things lively? toss lit fireworks at the sheeples?
do tell, I'm sure the stories you've got will be absolutely riveting!
I see you've changed the goal post from being grateful immediately, to being thankful in the future.
Just because you don't respect somebody's occupation, doesn't mean they don't value their own occupation. Independence has huge psychological benefits for people.
Not to mention refugees, are moved to places that already have economies, and land use, so there's not going to be open land for shepherd to feed a flock on. They're going to be competing with the locals.
I really don't know why you are wasting your time arguing with people like him, he won't see reason no matter how hard you try.
Because if we don't argue, then the misanthropes get to have the final word. And then other normal people will look at the discussions, and think the misanthropes and the hateful people are in the majority.
We have to participate so that our voices are heard, so that our peers, and are online peers, can see that they they are not alone.
We can't allow the normalization of hate and violence to destroy society, and that means we have to participate
agreeing with your ideology is never going to happen. believing in lies just doesnt jive with "seeing reason" for me.
Oh, so you're blind!
He's not blind, he's got five fingers stuffed in each ear and he's screaming "ALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU"
you're totally correctamundo about my complete and total lack of respect for their occupation - I reiterate, a garden gnome would be just as effective at herding animals as a shepherd. is being forced to do the same thing that your father did because he did the same thing his father did actually independence? it seems to me that's flawed thinking. the world is constantly in flux - a rigid, uncompromising, unyielding nature isnt going to get you very far. that's even more true when you're going to get to experience new vistas.
changed the goal post? should we be as unyielding as you're insinuating that the shepherds are, or should be? should they be ungrateful in the now and regretful in the future? does it even matter? will they have to compete, strive, suffer? of course they will! suffering is part of the human condition - it has ever been thus.
Your nihilist philosophy aside... We all live in a world, and we all have different life experiences, if you find yourself saying a different life experience isn't worth living, that must be applied to you as well.
As long as people aren't interfering with each other, they should be allowed to live however they like... Be it goat herding, or being a professional sophist troll online
you know, I've thought about that a lot - it's the great philosophical question of our age: does anything that we do actually matter? are we, as individuals, just so insignificant that our actions (whatever they may be) are meaningless? how do we, individually, impact the world? how do we strike our brand onto the graven slate of existence, proving that we're here, we matter, we existed?! perhaps by exchanging barbs online.
thank you for the compliment - I too thought that my logical argument, nay, position was indeed crafty in nature.
you're an idiot, you're not exchanging anything, you're confusing agressivity with wit
Oh now I see, you truly believe those people are subhuman and their lives don't matter. Glad that you have finally shown your true nature, so that I can simply block you, and have my feed not stained with people like you!
Displacement is part of genocide.