This is completely stupid. If Hamas are hiding in hospitals then surely there's a better fucking way to target them than trying to blow the whole fucking place up. One way would be to send a strike team, after all Israel and Mossad are "famous" for hunting terrorists down after the Munich bombing at the Olympics. Yet the same country can only now resort to cutting off infrastructure and bombing refugee camps, ambulances, schools and hospitals plus which is killing aid workers and drs.
I don’t know how strike teams work and such but I doubt it’s as easy as in Call of Duty.
OP's a child who's never dealt with violence, war or destroyed infrastructure.
My ex-FIL was a decorated Army vet (Iraq, 2x Bronze Stars), Mississippi National Guard. FFS, those men couldn't get into their own cities after Hurricane Katrina, in peacetime. They cut fucking houses in half and pushed them aside to open the roads.
Send in a strike team?! To a civilian hospital in a war zone?! That's a solid plan to get your men killed on the incursion, OR, get a bunch of civilians killed and THEN lose all your men.
Unless you happen to be your own uncle. You are just the pot calling the kettle black.
The IDF and the last month has killed more innocent civilians than Hamas has in years. Israel absolutely could be doing things differently if they wanted to save people and have peace. But they don't want to have peace. Other than that piece of land. And I guarantee 100% before this is all over. It will be found that Israel itself killed many of their precious hostages with their own munitions in their indiscriminate bombing campaign. That's just going to be a given. And also part of the reason why the Israel people are rightly calling out netanyahu and his cabinet of butchers.
Yeah, for starters your own people are going to get killed.
It would probably have fewer casualties on the enemy side however since some of them might actually live. However, Israel's goal is not to allow Hamas members to survive.
I think Israel should give them supplies to continue operation until they can be evacuated. And also Israel should give them notice of evacuation weeks in advance so they can prepare. And Israel should be expected to provide alternate medical care.
This is a war, so you are basically talking about an urban assault involving thousands of IDF infantry kicking doors down house to house and shooting anyone who shoots at them.
The US did that in Fallujah, and it's pretty gnarly. US had 500 casualties IIRC. The US also told all the residents to evacuate Fallujah before the operation went down.
That's why they're using this strategy. If there were a ton of Israeli soldier casualties on Bibi's watch, the military might let the public remove him from power, or do it themselves. Netanyahu has every motivation to bomb and starve Gaza. The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn't the IDF's goal. Their refusal to do so over the last few decades not only led to this war, but should have told supportive nations that too many Zionists are genocidal theocrats.
The most economical endgame for Israel's current military actions is the forceful expulsion of almost all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Occupation is a bad option. They've undermined the movement for coexistence so badly that even a total reversal of policy would be difficult. It's so fucking sad.
Meh. God will punish him surely.
I don't care what God will do to him; I just want to get these awful people out of power so they'll stop killing children. God making things right in the afterlife isn't a universally agreed upon truth, so we must do the right thing regardless of its existence. If God is good, surely he'd want us to make our mortal existence less miserable and more meaningful, right?
I prefer not to attempt to assert my morality upon a higher power
America tried bombing a million innocent civilians from the comfort of their lazy ass Texas seat too. Remind me whether they won that war. Surely they didn't leave a giant power vacuum and created many more resistance fighters.
Majority of deaths in iraq were during the civil war and the insurgency that followed, the 1 million figure that gets banded about with little evidence is in no way "civillians killed by NATO".
America purposely targeted civilian infrastructure at the start of their attack to cripple and kill the population and ruin their economy. They did not target military goals.
The 1 million figure is widely accepted.
I don't disagree, but given that the majority of the deaths happened uears later I think its niave to suggest that the USA killed 1 million iraqis.
The irony of hiding in a hospital when you literally cause war.
Doesn't it make more sense to argue that the person dropping bombs just doesn't want to admit they missed the target and fucked thousands of people because they're shit at their job? If you were fighting an alien or hunting a foreign agent, and you screwed up and accidentally shot your own family down in flames, you'd probably be rather embarrassed, I sure would be too haha
But hey it's alright nobody will judge even if they knew because the truth is that some jobs suck and just get glamorised on the news and in the media precisely because even the very few who make the cut can still be considered competent
Why do you blame Israel for the actions of their enemies?
Everyone is blaming Israel for the actions of Israel. I honestly have no idea how you could get this from the comment.
If you feel like you need to defend Israel in this situation, maybe ask yourself why that is. Is it really so difficult to call this obvious war crime out? You can still support them overall but acknowledge their (many) failings. At this point just saying "but Hamas!" in response to every valid criticism looks absolutely pathetic.
At what point do you think Hamas should take responsibility for hiding behind civilian infrastructure, including digging tunnels under a freaking hospital?
Obviously they should take responsibility. Should Israel take responsibility for it's crimes too?
So why blame Israel for something Hamas is doing? Why aren't you ranting about them?
Answer the question
They did. Israel is firing at Hamas, not hospitals. Full stop.
To take out Hamas any other way would be worse for civilians because it would involve a longer operation including a cordon. Look at 2017 in Mosul if you don't believe me.
They did. Israel is firing at Hamas, not hospitals. Full stop.
They bombed the (water) tanks, they bombed the water wells, they bombed the oxygen pump as well. They bombed everything in the hospital. So we are hardly surviving. We tell everyone, the hospital is no more a safe place for treating patients. We are harming patients by keeping them here
[...]
Gaza health ministry spokesperson Qidra said an Israel tank was now stationed at the hospital gate. Israeli snipers and drones were firing into the hospital, making it impossible for medics and patients to move around.
"We are besieged and are inside a circle of death," he said.
And there are 32 patients dead in the past three days because of Israel's blockade of supplies alone. Not to mention the constant bombing.
I find it really weird that people come into the comments to demand people denounce Hamas, but then refuse to acknowledge Israel's crimes under any circumstances. Is it so hard to call out crimes in both sides?
Honestly if someone can't acknowledge the problems with what Israel is doing here I don't think there's anything to be gained from debating this with them
Edit: I thought you were the original commenter before, sorry, but the point still stands
To take out Hamas using any other approach than the way Israel is currently doing it would be much worse for civilians. I'm not the original commentator but don't get me wrong, you do not understand war. You do not understand war crimes. You do not understand the difference between them.
Honestly you have not been helpful with that. If I don't understand something you could explain it. What is the difference between them that I'm missing?
If Israel did their job right there would be no Hamas. If the police did their job right there would arguably be no such thing as crime, yet the police can accept when they're imperfect, nobody is above criticism here and neither should Israel be, don't let your ego blind you from the reality of the circumstances and the actual events at hand.
For most people, I think that the problem isn’t with Hamas being held responsible. The problem is that people bearing the brunt of Hamas’ and Israeli actions aren’t members of Hamas - they’remedical personnel and patients and civilians in general.
Yeah, because they're being used as human shields.
Of course they are. Why else would you set up in a hospital? Doing so (turning hospital into a command post or using a marked ambulance to transport fighters or weapons) is against international law. If it is true that Hamas is doing that in these exact examples and not merely as a general practice), those buildings and vehicles are legal military targets. I was in the business and I’m familiar with all of the arguments and justifications.
What it comes down to, legally, is whether the response was proportional to the threat and whether every attempt was made to restrict damage to civilian infrastructure and persons. Just as a hypothetical example, using an F-16 to drop two bombs on a populated hospital because there’s a couple of snipers on the 6th floor would be a disproportionate response. Using a rocket propelled grenade against that window/room is more proportional, even if there were patients in the same room. Killing them with counter-sniper fire so as to save those patients but still eliminate the threat is the most proportional.
The other dimension, though, is the moral culpability (if you believe in free will) or at least the functional responsibility (if you do not) of designing and launching an operation in which massive amounts of civilian casualties and misery will be caused. I don’t see that enough.
I think it was Aquinas who laid out one of the early versions of just war theory. One of the main points is that the intended outcome must be proportional to the harms caused.
What people are questioning is whether a particular encounter or the operation in general were necessary and proportional.
I appreciate the well reasoned response. Whether this is an appropriate or balanced response from Israel, I don't really know, but I'm tired of everyone demanding they be the bigger people, and completely ignoring the actions of Hamas.
You're ignoring the massive power imbalance. You expect people to cast out blame to 2 equal sides, when that really isn't the case. Isreal as a so-called democratic nationstate should be held to a higher standard than a band of extremists.
Edit: tl;dr ITT I try and fail to convey that terrorists using innocent people as meat shields/hostages is wrong and a government bombing those terrorists along with their hostages is also wrong. I dunno how that's too confusing for anyone to understand but I guess some folk truly are lost causes.
Original comment below:
Are you implying that Israel has not done any bombing whatsoever? Or are you implying that terrorists hiding behind innocent people means everyone involved must die by bombing? Or are you just a troll trying to get a reaction from people by posting an obviously ignorant comment?
Let me ask you this, if some bank robbers took your family and friends hostage, what do you think the response should be? By your own logic I must assume that they all need to die because criminals were using them as meat shields. By your logic, if your home is being robbed and the robber uses you as a shield, the response should be to mow you down along with the robber. How unlucky for you that the robber chose your house eh? How ignorant.
And if you're struggling to put yourself in those shoes, good. Be glad that you're so far removed from such dangers. But you are not immune. Criminals and potential terrorists exist everywhere, and I truly hope that if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation that the response isn't what you idolize for innocent people in a foreign land. Because even unemphatic scum don't deserve to die simply for being a hostage.
I'd like to assume that you simply forgot a "/s", and I apologize if the sarcastic intent of your comment was lost, but there are people that truly believe what you've said.
We're not dealing with bank robbers though, are we? We're dealing with a government.
And what does that change exactly? Definition: A government is a group of people governing an organized community. So if that organized community were a bunch of robbers or terrorists, and they had some others to govern them, they are by definition a government. If that government or organized community then holds you hostage, does that somehow make it different compared to if it were just a group of unorganized robbers or terrorists that didn't have leaders? So just because some common criminals have a leader, making them a "government", all of a sudden it's ok to kill you along with them?
Let me simplify that. Gangs are governments by definition, i.e. an organized community with leaders. If you, your family, and/or friends were held hostage by a gang, you are saying it's okay to kill you, your family, and/or friends in the name of killing off some gangsters. If that feels wrong then you need to rethink your opinion because that is a direct equivalence to what is happening between Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. Hamas are the equivalent to gangsters and Israel is the equivalent to the US government acting through the police to murder people you love in the name of killing off gangsters.
Let me answer that first question for you because I now believe you're too thick skulled to figure it out yourself. The fact that it's a "government" changes nothing in regards to another "government" killing innocent people.
Please note, I am not(!!) advocating for Hamas. What they have done and are still doing is fucking terrible. I condemn it with every fiber of my being. But to say that innocent people brought their own deaths upon themselves simply for existing on the wrong side of an imaginary line is fucked up. The only people that are "losing" in this conflict are the innocent people dying on both sides of the imaginary line. And if you can't agree with that I'm done replying. Just because someone is Palestinian doesn't make their deaths any better or worse than if they're Israeli. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of which side of the line they're on. I condemn any and all violence in this conflict. Both governments think they're in the right and the only people that suffer are those caught in the crossfire. Full stop. May you find a little empathy, have a nice night, and a good life.
You're putting a lot of effort into blaming Israel for defending themselves against a terrorist organisation.
Are you implying that all Palestinian people are apart of "a terrorist organization"? You are beginning to come across as full on racist. At what point does "Justice" turn into terrorism in itself? How many innocent people is it "okay" to kill in the name of defeating a terrorist organization? It isn't just "a terrorist organization" being killed.
Palestinian == terrorist. Hamas == terrorists. Killing hundreds/thousands of Palestinians in order to kill Hamas is not okay. Bombing a hospital filled with Palestinians is not okay.
Also, which is it? Is Hamas "a terrorist organization" or a government?
I'm done arguing with Hamas sympathisers today, sorry.
Also, I'm not blaming anyone or any government. I'm not speaking anything about self defense, other than that self defense does not entail violence against innocent people. I do not know enough of the topic or conflict to get into any of that. I am solely pointing out that blindly killing anyone and everyone in proximity of some wrong doing, regardless of their involvement in said wrong doing, is in and of itself wrong.
What's your position on slaughtering over a thousand civilians at a music festival?
They slaughtered about 1400 altogether, including 270 at that festival.
It's possible to condemn Hamas slaughtering innocent civilians and also condemn Israel slaughtering innocent civilians. This would be most people's reaction, and in fact the person you're responding to has repeatedly condemned Hamas. So why do you ask this?
This is completely stupid. If Hamas are hiding in hospitals then surely there's a better fucking way to target them than trying to blow the whole fucking place up. One way would be to send a strike team, after all Israel and Mossad are "famous" for hunting terrorists down after the Munich bombing at the Olympics. Yet the same country can only now resort to cutting off infrastructure and bombing refugee camps, ambulances, schools and hospitals plus which is killing aid workers and drs.
I don’t know how strike teams work and such but I doubt it’s as easy as in Call of Duty.
OP's a child who's never dealt with violence, war or destroyed infrastructure.
My ex-FIL was a decorated Army vet (Iraq, 2x Bronze Stars), Mississippi National Guard. FFS, those men couldn't get into their own cities after Hurricane Katrina, in peacetime. They cut fucking houses in half and pushed them aside to open the roads.
Send in a strike team?! To a civilian hospital in a war zone?! That's a solid plan to get your men killed on the incursion, OR, get a bunch of civilians killed and THEN lose all your men.
Unless you happen to be your own uncle. You are just the pot calling the kettle black.
The IDF and the last month has killed more innocent civilians than Hamas has in years. Israel absolutely could be doing things differently if they wanted to save people and have peace. But they don't want to have peace. Other than that piece of land. And I guarantee 100% before this is all over. It will be found that Israel itself killed many of their precious hostages with their own munitions in their indiscriminate bombing campaign. That's just going to be a given. And also part of the reason why the Israel people are rightly calling out netanyahu and his cabinet of butchers.
Yeah, for starters your own people are going to get killed.
It would probably have fewer casualties on the enemy side however since some of them might actually live. However, Israel's goal is not to allow Hamas members to survive.
That would only make sense if the goal wasn't revenge and ethnic cleansing.
Exactly! It surely can't be harder to fight 30,000 embedded terrorists than 8 scattered terrorists in hiding.
I think Israel should give them supplies to continue operation until they can be evacuated. And also Israel should give them notice of evacuation weeks in advance so they can prepare. And Israel should be expected to provide alternate medical care.
This is a war, so you are basically talking about an urban assault involving thousands of IDF infantry kicking doors down house to house and shooting anyone who shoots at them.
The US did that in Fallujah, and it's pretty gnarly. US had 500 casualties IIRC. The US also told all the residents to evacuate Fallujah before the operation went down.
That's why they're using this strategy. If there were a ton of Israeli soldier casualties on Bibi's watch, the military might let the public remove him from power, or do it themselves. Netanyahu has every motivation to bomb and starve Gaza. The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn't the IDF's goal. Their refusal to do so over the last few decades not only led to this war, but should have told supportive nations that too many Zionists are genocidal theocrats.
The most economical endgame for Israel's current military actions is the forceful expulsion of almost all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Occupation is a bad option. They've undermined the movement for coexistence so badly that even a total reversal of policy would be difficult. It's so fucking sad.
Meh. God will punish him surely.
I don't care what God will do to him; I just want to get these awful people out of power so they'll stop killing children. God making things right in the afterlife isn't a universally agreed upon truth, so we must do the right thing regardless of its existence. If God is good, surely he'd want us to make our mortal existence less miserable and more meaningful, right?
I prefer not to attempt to assert my morality upon a higher power
America tried bombing a million innocent civilians from the comfort of their lazy ass Texas seat too. Remind me whether they won that war. Surely they didn't leave a giant power vacuum and created many more resistance fighters.
Majority of deaths in iraq were during the civil war and the insurgency that followed, the 1 million figure that gets banded about with little evidence is in no way "civillians killed by NATO".
America purposely targeted civilian infrastructure at the start of their attack to cripple and kill the population and ruin their economy. They did not target military goals.
The 1 million figure is widely accepted.
I don't disagree, but given that the majority of the deaths happened uears later I think its niave to suggest that the USA killed 1 million iraqis.
The irony of hiding in a hospital when you literally cause war.
Doesn't it make more sense to argue that the person dropping bombs just doesn't want to admit they missed the target and fucked thousands of people because they're shit at their job? If you were fighting an alien or hunting a foreign agent, and you screwed up and accidentally shot your own family down in flames, you'd probably be rather embarrassed, I sure would be too haha
But hey it's alright nobody will judge even if they knew because the truth is that some jobs suck and just get glamorised on the news and in the media precisely because even the very few who make the cut can still be considered competent
Why do you blame Israel for the actions of their enemies?
Everyone is blaming Israel for the actions of Israel. I honestly have no idea how you could get this from the comment.
If you feel like you need to defend Israel in this situation, maybe ask yourself why that is. Is it really so difficult to call this obvious war crime out? You can still support them overall but acknowledge their (many) failings. At this point just saying "but Hamas!" in response to every valid criticism looks absolutely pathetic.
At what point do you think Hamas should take responsibility for hiding behind civilian infrastructure, including digging tunnels under a freaking hospital?
Obviously they should take responsibility. Should Israel take responsibility for it's crimes too?
So why blame Israel for something Hamas is doing? Why aren't you ranting about them?
Answer the question
They did. Israel is firing at Hamas, not hospitals. Full stop.
To take out Hamas any other way would be worse for civilians because it would involve a longer operation including a cordon. Look at 2017 in Mosul if you don't believe me.
Weird thing to say. How do you explain this?
[...]
And there are 32 patients dead in the past three days because of Israel's blockade of supplies alone. Not to mention the constant bombing.
I find it really weird that people come into the comments to demand people denounce Hamas, but then refuse to acknowledge Israel's crimes under any circumstances. Is it so hard to call out crimes in both sides?
Honestly if someone can't acknowledge the problems with what Israel is doing here I don't think there's anything to be gained from debating this with them
Edit: I thought you were the original commenter before, sorry, but the point still stands
To take out Hamas using any other approach than the way Israel is currently doing it would be much worse for civilians. I'm not the original commentator but don't get me wrong, you do not understand war. You do not understand war crimes. You do not understand the difference between them.
Honestly you have not been helpful with that. If I don't understand something you could explain it. What is the difference between them that I'm missing?
If Israel did their job right there would be no Hamas. If the police did their job right there would arguably be no such thing as crime, yet the police can accept when they're imperfect, nobody is above criticism here and neither should Israel be, don't let your ego blind you from the reality of the circumstances and the actual events at hand.
For most people, I think that the problem isn’t with Hamas being held responsible. The problem is that people bearing the brunt of Hamas’ and Israeli actions aren’t members of Hamas - they’remedical personnel and patients and civilians in general.
Yeah, because they're being used as human shields.
Of course they are. Why else would you set up in a hospital? Doing so (turning hospital into a command post or using a marked ambulance to transport fighters or weapons) is against international law. If it is true that Hamas is doing that in these exact examples and not merely as a general practice), those buildings and vehicles are legal military targets. I was in the business and I’m familiar with all of the arguments and justifications.
What it comes down to, legally, is whether the response was proportional to the threat and whether every attempt was made to restrict damage to civilian infrastructure and persons. Just as a hypothetical example, using an F-16 to drop two bombs on a populated hospital because there’s a couple of snipers on the 6th floor would be a disproportionate response. Using a rocket propelled grenade against that window/room is more proportional, even if there were patients in the same room. Killing them with counter-sniper fire so as to save those patients but still eliminate the threat is the most proportional.
The other dimension, though, is the moral culpability (if you believe in free will) or at least the functional responsibility (if you do not) of designing and launching an operation in which massive amounts of civilian casualties and misery will be caused. I don’t see that enough.
I think it was Aquinas who laid out one of the early versions of just war theory. One of the main points is that the intended outcome must be proportional to the harms caused.
What people are questioning is whether a particular encounter or the operation in general were necessary and proportional.
I appreciate the well reasoned response. Whether this is an appropriate or balanced response from Israel, I don't really know, but I'm tired of everyone demanding they be the bigger people, and completely ignoring the actions of Hamas.
You're ignoring the massive power imbalance. You expect people to cast out blame to 2 equal sides, when that really isn't the case. Isreal as a so-called democratic nationstate should be held to a higher standard than a band of extremists.
Edit: tl;dr ITT I try and fail to convey that terrorists using innocent people as meat shields/hostages is wrong and a government bombing those terrorists along with their hostages is also wrong. I dunno how that's too confusing for anyone to understand but I guess some folk truly are lost causes.
Original comment below:
Are you implying that Israel has not done any bombing whatsoever? Or are you implying that terrorists hiding behind innocent people means everyone involved must die by bombing? Or are you just a troll trying to get a reaction from people by posting an obviously ignorant comment?
Let me ask you this, if some bank robbers took your family and friends hostage, what do you think the response should be? By your own logic I must assume that they all need to die because criminals were using them as meat shields. By your logic, if your home is being robbed and the robber uses you as a shield, the response should be to mow you down along with the robber. How unlucky for you that the robber chose your house eh? How ignorant.
And if you're struggling to put yourself in those shoes, good. Be glad that you're so far removed from such dangers. But you are not immune. Criminals and potential terrorists exist everywhere, and I truly hope that if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation that the response isn't what you idolize for innocent people in a foreign land. Because even unemphatic scum don't deserve to die simply for being a hostage.
I'd like to assume that you simply forgot a "/s", and I apologize if the sarcastic intent of your comment was lost, but there are people that truly believe what you've said.
We're not dealing with bank robbers though, are we? We're dealing with a government.
And what does that change exactly? Definition: A government is a group of people governing an organized community. So if that organized community were a bunch of robbers or terrorists, and they had some others to govern them, they are by definition a government. If that government or organized community then holds you hostage, does that somehow make it different compared to if it were just a group of unorganized robbers or terrorists that didn't have leaders? So just because some common criminals have a leader, making them a "government", all of a sudden it's ok to kill you along with them?
Let me simplify that. Gangs are governments by definition, i.e. an organized community with leaders. If you, your family, and/or friends were held hostage by a gang, you are saying it's okay to kill you, your family, and/or friends in the name of killing off some gangsters. If that feels wrong then you need to rethink your opinion because that is a direct equivalence to what is happening between Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. Hamas are the equivalent to gangsters and Israel is the equivalent to the US government acting through the police to murder people you love in the name of killing off gangsters.
Let me answer that first question for you because I now believe you're too thick skulled to figure it out yourself. The fact that it's a "government" changes nothing in regards to another "government" killing innocent people.
Please note, I am not(!!) advocating for Hamas. What they have done and are still doing is fucking terrible. I condemn it with every fiber of my being. But to say that innocent people brought their own deaths upon themselves simply for existing on the wrong side of an imaginary line is fucked up. The only people that are "losing" in this conflict are the innocent people dying on both sides of the imaginary line. And if you can't agree with that I'm done replying. Just because someone is Palestinian doesn't make their deaths any better or worse than if they're Israeli. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of which side of the line they're on. I condemn any and all violence in this conflict. Both governments think they're in the right and the only people that suffer are those caught in the crossfire. Full stop. May you find a little empathy, have a nice night, and a good life.
You're putting a lot of effort into blaming Israel for defending themselves against a terrorist organisation.
Are you implying that all Palestinian people are apart of "a terrorist organization"? You are beginning to come across as full on racist. At what point does "Justice" turn into terrorism in itself? How many innocent people is it "okay" to kill in the name of defeating a terrorist organization? It isn't just "a terrorist organization" being killed.
Palestinian == terrorist. Hamas == terrorists. Killing hundreds/thousands of Palestinians in order to kill Hamas is not okay. Bombing a hospital filled with Palestinians is not okay.
Also, which is it? Is Hamas "a terrorist organization" or a government?
I'm done arguing with Hamas sympathisers today, sorry.
Also, I'm not blaming anyone or any government. I'm not speaking anything about self defense, other than that self defense does not entail violence against innocent people. I do not know enough of the topic or conflict to get into any of that. I am solely pointing out that blindly killing anyone and everyone in proximity of some wrong doing, regardless of their involvement in said wrong doing, is in and of itself wrong.
What's your position on slaughtering over a thousand civilians at a music festival?
They slaughtered about 1400 altogether, including 270 at that festival.
It's possible to condemn Hamas slaughtering innocent civilians and also condemn Israel slaughtering innocent civilians. This would be most people's reaction, and in fact the person you're responding to has repeatedly condemned Hamas. So why do you ask this?