I bet a large part of the Fediverse are Communist/Socialist too, or have similar ideas. Lemmy's devs are, after all.
I mean, the whole thing is based on the idea of being free to use for everyone.
I see your Point. I see myself also as rather left. But the People over at Lemmygrad are not really left imo.
They are authoritarian, for sure. But left? I don't know. I don't want to claim to be the sole "Incarnation of leftism" it's just that many of my views and beliefs are the opposite of theirs.
The spectrum is more than left and right, I know political compass memes on Reddit got taken over by nazis but there is legitimately a whole compass. Stalin is somewhat center left, nudist hippie communes are lower left corner
There is, for better or worse, authoritarianism on the left. "You will be fed and given a place to stay and personal safety... or else!" Even in its more benign forms (ex Bolshevism) it's kinda bad imo. When it gets extreme it gets... well... being an English speaker i'm sure you've heard all about it.
Not really, but I'm actually not a native English speaker tho đ
Bolshevism is pretty fucking far from benign considering it is the origin of authoritarian leftistism.
Being vehemently against racism and fascism is left. It's the logical extreme opposite of "a certain group of people are superior to everyone else": "everyone is equal and their basic necessities should be provided for free"
You just seem to disagree with the folks over on grad and Lemmy devs on how that can be achieved, and maybe to what extent it should be. They believe an authority is necessary to enforce those rules, or you get corporations and billionaires steering the government to wage wars for profit from oil, materials etc. like what's happening now.
Personally, I see being pro-China like they are on grad as much less worrying than being pro-US, the latter of which I have a feeling .world mods wouldn't block because of their inherent western bias. Only one of the two have constantly invaded other countries for their resources, or overthrown democratically elected foreign governments to replace them with military dictatorships.
Only one of the two have constantly invaded other countries
The People of Tibet might disagree there. But this is a discussion for another Time.
I'm not pro US either, tho. I just call out evil when I see it. And that's my Problem with Lemygrad. They seem to believe there are only two sides. I can say America does bad things and China, Russia etc. does bad things. They pick one side and argue and justify away the crimes "their" Side has done. And that's not how we come forward. Evil is Evil is Evil. No matter who does it.
They pick one side and argue and justify away the crimes âtheirâ Side has done
That's a heavy oversimplification of everything on there... I see the folks on grad being mad about bad decisions by China just the same; they just heavily scrutinize negative news for bias or misinfo, as people should do for everything.
If you do scrutinize your news and sources, I think it's only natural that you'd end up being very anti-west/imperialism, and far less anti-China, specially considering the grip western media and news have on the world. The two are just not equivalent at all.
The People of Tibet might disagree there
Here's an example of that. The fact that China's education system makes sure ~90% of Tibetans can speak their cultural language compared to the ~8% of North Americans that can speak theirs means they're just not equivalent. The only countries accusing China of such a fucked up crime like cultural repression are western ones with a political/economic interest for doing so. Muslim countries and the global south side with China on this and Xinjiang.
You don't get it.
I don't compare. It is not that is worse than that.
China attacked Tibet and conquered their Land. I don't need to compare this to the US. I don't care if Country XYZ says it was good. Evil is Evil is Evil.
Pull yourself away from comparing. You don't have to weigh Evil against each other.
EDIT:
They pick one side and argue and justify away the crimes âtheirâ Side has done.
You are doing exactly that. You try to argue and justify the annexation of Tibet. You could easily say âYeah, that was not okay. China invaded and occupied Tibet, this is not okay.â But instead you are trying to compare this to the US and bring up other Countries and what they think. THIS is exactly what I meant.
you are trying to compare this to the US and bring up other Countries and what they think
Shouldn't we look at different sources and scrutinize events and claims thoroughly? You seem to be thinking you're being objective by taking a centrist position on these but this
China invaded and occupied Tibet
is a western claim, and exactly what the US and EU wants its citizens to think by drawing a false equivalence between them and their geopolitical rival. Tibet had a popular revolutionary party whose views were in line with the rest of China that wanted China's help overthrowing the Dalai Lama, under whom slavery and serfdom was common in the region. There absolutely were factions supporting the prior feudal rule, but chalking that up to "China invaded and occupied Tibet" is absurd and extremely misleading. Tibet is an autonomous region now.
Hell, the Tibetan uprising against the Chinese government later on was organized by the CIA, and the US is open about it and even proud of it now. Here's a book on that written by a US district judge and a journal by a poffessor on Tibetan studies. It's similar to how the US overthrew the democratically elected Mosaddegh in Iran because his policies would benefit Iran instead of the US.
Again you feel the need to bring up the US. This is all you got, isnât it? âHey, Hey, donât call out my Camp, look at the US. They are bad!â.
You honestly believe everyone lies?
Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Campaign for Tibet, Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, the UN. All lie?
But China tells the truth. You are so far gone itâs unbelievable. You question well documented facts, but you wonât believe that a regime that is notorious for lying wonât lie? You are waaaay too far gone that I, a random Person from the Internet, could ever convince you. Iâm just going to block you, you are not worth arguing with any further. You have nothing of value to say I couldn't read in a Chinese propaganda pamphlet.
Tibet had a popular revolutionary party whose views were in line with the rest of China that wanted Chinaâs help overthrowing the Dalai Lama, under whom slavery and serfdom was common in the region.
Yes Tibet was a theocratic slave state. But China still invaded and annexed them.
Was the US invasion of Iraq justified because Saddam was a dictator? If we annexed Iraq and didn't make them speak English it would be fine?
Forget it. He is too far gone. We are just Strangers on the Internet, and he lives inside a paranoid nightmare.
I tried my best but got nowhere.
I can see his side because Tibet was a Theocratic slave state. But he pretends China didn't invade.
He's clearly a tankie. I wonder if lemmy.zip is just as bad as lemmygrad or lemmy.ml.
I know why I went to kbin though. I just have no desire to directly support those developers.
he lives inside a paranoid nightmare
Lmao I wouldn't go that far. But we can't all see eye-to-eye ig unfortunately.
China invaded and annexed them.
Again, the popular Tibetan revolutionary party fought the feudal rule and welcomed Chinese intervention; their views were in line with the rest of China, and the autonomous nature of the region while being part of China reflects that.
the US invasion of Iraq
Not even comparable. There were no popular pro-US movements fighting Saddam's rule, and Iraq was destabilized in the first place because of US sanctions, not Saddam's decisions unlike the feudalism in Tibet. This was purely a strategic invasion to set up military bases and secure oil and resources by making up false claims of WMDs.
popular Tibetan revolutionary party
If they were popular, they wouldn't have needed China to invade. China was supporting them just like the US supported revolutionaries that overthrew their governments.
There were no popular pro-US movements fighting Saddamâs rule
The Kurds.
This was purely a strategic invasion to set up military bases and secure oil and resources by making up false claims of WMDs.
Their are no us military bases in Iraq and all the oil money goes to Iraq.
If they were popular, they wouldnât have needed China
Why wouldn't commoners in a feudal slave state not want help from a nearby government whose views match their own?
just like the US supported revolutionaries that overthrew their governments
The US overthrew democratically elected popular governments, like Mosaddegh's in Iran, or Salvador Allende's in Iraq, replacing the latter with a military dictatorship, because their policies benefitted their own countries instead of the US.
Their are no us military bases in Iraq and all the oil money goes to Iraq.
...What? There are still military bases in Iraq even now, and the economic dependence on the US that Iraq is now in is exactly what the US wanted/wants. ExxonMobil, Chevron etc. extracting oil for cheap from a war-torn country that doesn't have a choice; even CNN admits it.
Why wouldnât commoners in a feudal slave state not want help
Yes many wanted it. But if it was popular, Chinese invasion would not have been necessary. Nor would 1.2 million Tibetans need to have been killed.
There are 2500 US troops in Iraq today compared to 300,000 Chinese troops in Tibet today. The US did not annex Iraq or the other countries you mentioned.
So are you saying that China didn't abduct a child in an attempt to exterminate Tibetan culture? Surely there is no way to defend such things and this should be a very easy thing to condemn?
Amazing, it only took you 2 comments to land right on genocide denial, unprovoked.
You're a tankie, defending other tankies, and tankies aren't communists, nor are you on the left, since you clearly aren't in support of freedom and equality for all, never mind the rest of it, just more of the same bullshit - authoritarians co opting leftist ideas and language to grab power. Tale as old as fucking time..
genocide
Jesus christ, you don't seem to realize how much of a fucked up accusation that is to throw around. Even the US State Department, who would love to claim any and all accusations against their geopolitical rivals, says there's no mass killings in China, probably because the US couldn't cause one like they did in 1965 in Indonesia.
Even if it's not intentional, these kinds of thoughtless claims downplay actual mass killings like the one Israel is perpetrating against native Palestinians right now.
far-rights co opting leftist language to grab power
Hence why it's important to scrutinize news, sources and claims, and not throw around baseless ones.
I do think we need a democratically elected authority though, or you get corporations and billionaires steering the government to wage wars for their own selfish profit from oil, materials etc. like whatâs happening now with Israel. And rising inequality as wealth gathers at the top.
I would say pro Putin people can't be called leftists they are nazis in red.
I don't think they're pro-Putin? Seem to be as much against Russian imperialism and capitalism as they are against US's.
Edit: Lmao one of the first comments I saw on there:
Putin will be a narcissistic fence sitter who abuses power for his own ends
So yeah, not very "pro-Putin"
and I saw some very pro Putin shit in places like chapotraphouse,even people for the genocide of ukraine
I do wonder how much of that is Russian psyop. I feel like the whole chapotraphouse thing was started or at least very influenced by bad actors and propaganda bots. That place was a shitshow, for sure.
Probably none of it, but knowing how Russia is that wouldn't surprise me. That's just how tankies are, no need for russian intervention. They're just as bad as Nazis for "that genocide didn't happen, but if it did they deserved it" type shit
"I found literally one comment that doesn't support Putin so clearly the tankie instance doesn't support him!"
I literally have a hexbear account. People scream that the tankies love putin and that couldn't be further from the truth. USSR? Yes but they shit on modern day Russia a lot
I would tell you to go to hell for being on hexbear, but apparently you haven't been on there enough to see how pro-russia and pro-Putin tankies tend to be
And apparently you haven't been on there long enough to see how wrong you are. Link me this pro putin propaganda, I'll wait
Hey look literally your most recent comment is pushing the "meat grinder" narrative that Zelensky is evil for sending innocent people to die in "his" war of aggression xD
Yeah what's your point? It's pretty obvious that's what's happening. Fighting a losing battle, making no progress. You gonna tell me that Russias on the brink of collapse next?
You're so right bestie! Ukraine should just roll over and let Russia take all their land and children and treat them like shit :D
Cringe. You can work out a surrender without giving up your entire country. Would that not potentially be preferable to fighting a losing war to the last man?
r/genzedong and I think a couple other tankie subreddits literally got taken down for spreading pro-russia disinformation https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ban/ . I've seen a bunch of shit from them and from hexbear and grad about how Putin is based for denazifying Ukraine and shit, but no number of actual examples of that I could link would change your mind bc putin's boot just tastes too nice to you, so why would I even bother subjecting myself to cunts like you calling for Ukrainian and Jewish genocide?
I bet a large part of the Fediverse are Communist/Socialist too, or have similar ideas. Lemmy's devs are, after all.
I mean, the whole thing is based on the idea of being free to use for everyone.
I see your Point. I see myself also as rather left. But the People over at Lemmygrad are not really left imo. They are authoritarian, for sure. But left? I don't know. I don't want to claim to be the sole "Incarnation of leftism" it's just that many of my views and beliefs are the opposite of theirs.
The spectrum is more than left and right, I know political compass memes on Reddit got taken over by nazis but there is legitimately a whole compass. Stalin is somewhat center left, nudist hippie communes are lower left corner
There is, for better or worse, authoritarianism on the left. "You will be fed and given a place to stay and personal safety... or else!" Even in its more benign forms (ex Bolshevism) it's kinda bad imo. When it gets extreme it gets... well... being an English speaker i'm sure you've heard all about it.
Not really, but I'm actually not a native English speaker tho đ
Bolshevism is pretty fucking far from benign considering it is the origin of authoritarian leftistism.
Being vehemently against racism and fascism is left. It's the logical extreme opposite of "a certain group of people are superior to everyone else": "everyone is equal and their basic necessities should be provided for free"
You just seem to disagree with the folks over on grad and Lemmy devs on how that can be achieved, and maybe to what extent it should be. They believe an authority is necessary to enforce those rules, or you get corporations and billionaires steering the government to wage wars for profit from oil, materials etc. like what's happening now.
Personally, I see being pro-China like they are on grad as much less worrying than being pro-US, the latter of which I have a feeling .world mods wouldn't block because of their inherent western bias. Only one of the two have constantly invaded other countries for their resources, or overthrown democratically elected foreign governments to replace them with military dictatorships.
The People of Tibet might disagree there. But this is a discussion for another Time.
I'm not pro US either, tho. I just call out evil when I see it. And that's my Problem with Lemygrad. They seem to believe there are only two sides. I can say America does bad things and China, Russia etc. does bad things. They pick one side and argue and justify away the crimes "their" Side has done. And that's not how we come forward. Evil is Evil is Evil. No matter who does it.
That's a heavy oversimplification of everything on there... I see the folks on grad being mad about bad decisions by China just the same; they just heavily scrutinize negative news for bias or misinfo, as people should do for everything.
If you do scrutinize your news and sources, I think it's only natural that you'd end up being very anti-west/imperialism, and far less anti-China, specially considering the grip western media and news have on the world. The two are just not equivalent at all.
Here's an example of that. The fact that China's education system makes sure ~90% of Tibetans can speak their cultural language compared to the ~8% of North Americans that can speak theirs means they're just not equivalent. The only countries accusing China of such a fucked up crime like cultural repression are western ones with a political/economic interest for doing so. Muslim countries and the global south side with China on this and Xinjiang.
You don't get it. I don't compare. It is not that is worse than that. China attacked Tibet and conquered their Land. I don't need to compare this to the US. I don't care if Country XYZ says it was good. Evil is Evil is Evil. Pull yourself away from comparing. You don't have to weigh Evil against each other.
EDIT:
You are doing exactly that. You try to argue and justify the annexation of Tibet. You could easily say âYeah, that was not okay. China invaded and occupied Tibet, this is not okay.â But instead you are trying to compare this to the US and bring up other Countries and what they think. THIS is exactly what I meant.
Shouldn't we look at different sources and scrutinize events and claims thoroughly? You seem to be thinking you're being objective by taking a centrist position on these but this
is a western claim, and exactly what the US and EU wants its citizens to think by drawing a false equivalence between them and their geopolitical rival. Tibet had a popular revolutionary party whose views were in line with the rest of China that wanted China's help overthrowing the Dalai Lama, under whom slavery and serfdom was common in the region. There absolutely were factions supporting the prior feudal rule, but chalking that up to "China invaded and occupied Tibet" is absurd and extremely misleading. Tibet is an autonomous region now.
Hell, the Tibetan uprising against the Chinese government later on was organized by the CIA, and the US is open about it and even proud of it now. Here's a book on that written by a US district judge and a journal by a poffessor on Tibetan studies. It's similar to how the US overthrew the democratically elected Mosaddegh in Iran because his policies would benefit Iran instead of the US.
Again you feel the need to bring up the US. This is all you got, isnât it? âHey, Hey, donât call out my Camp, look at the US. They are bad!â.
You honestly believe everyone lies? Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Campaign for Tibet, Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, the UN. All lie? But China tells the truth. You are so far gone itâs unbelievable. You question well documented facts, but you wonât believe that a regime that is notorious for lying wonât lie? You are waaaay too far gone that I, a random Person from the Internet, could ever convince you. Iâm just going to block you, you are not worth arguing with any further. You have nothing of value to say I couldn't read in a Chinese propaganda pamphlet.
Yes Tibet was a theocratic slave state. But China still invaded and annexed them.
Was the US invasion of Iraq justified because Saddam was a dictator? If we annexed Iraq and didn't make them speak English it would be fine?
Forget it. He is too far gone. We are just Strangers on the Internet, and he lives inside a paranoid nightmare. I tried my best but got nowhere.
I can see his side because Tibet was a Theocratic slave state. But he pretends China didn't invade.
He's clearly a tankie. I wonder if lemmy.zip is just as bad as lemmygrad or lemmy.ml.
I know why I went to kbin though. I just have no desire to directly support those developers.
Lmao I wouldn't go that far. But we can't all see eye-to-eye ig unfortunately.
Again, the popular Tibetan revolutionary party fought the feudal rule and welcomed Chinese intervention; their views were in line with the rest of China, and the autonomous nature of the region while being part of China reflects that.
Not even comparable. There were no popular pro-US movements fighting Saddam's rule, and Iraq was destabilized in the first place because of US sanctions, not Saddam's decisions unlike the feudalism in Tibet. This was purely a strategic invasion to set up military bases and secure oil and resources by making up false claims of WMDs.
If they were popular, they wouldn't have needed China to invade. China was supporting them just like the US supported revolutionaries that overthrew their governments.
The Kurds.
Their are no us military bases in Iraq and all the oil money goes to Iraq.
Why wouldn't commoners in a feudal slave state not want help from a nearby government whose views match their own?
The US overthrew democratically elected popular governments, like Mosaddegh's in Iran, or Salvador Allende's in Iraq, replacing the latter with a military dictatorship, because their policies benefitted their own countries instead of the US.
...What? There are still military bases in Iraq even now, and the economic dependence on the US that Iraq is now in is exactly what the US wanted/wants. ExxonMobil, Chevron etc. extracting oil for cheap from a war-torn country that doesn't have a choice; even CNN admits it.
Yes many wanted it. But if it was popular, Chinese invasion would not have been necessary. Nor would 1.2 million Tibetans need to have been killed.
There are 2500 US troops in Iraq today compared to 300,000 Chinese troops in Tibet today. The US did not annex Iraq or the other countries you mentioned.
Iraq Balks at Chinese control of their oil:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/iraq-balks-greater-chinese-control-its-oilfields-2022-05-17/
So are you saying that China didn't abduct a child in an attempt to exterminate Tibetan culture? Surely there is no way to defend such things and this should be a very easy thing to condemn?
Amazing, it only took you 2 comments to land right on genocide denial, unprovoked.
You're a tankie, defending other tankies, and tankies aren't communists, nor are you on the left, since you clearly aren't in support of freedom and equality for all, never mind the rest of it, just more of the same bullshit - authoritarians co opting leftist ideas and language to grab power. Tale as old as fucking time..
Jesus christ, you don't seem to realize how much of a fucked up accusation that is to throw around. Even the US State Department, who would love to claim any and all accusations against their geopolitical rivals, says there's no mass killings in China, probably because the US couldn't cause one like they did in 1965 in Indonesia.
Even if it's not intentional, these kinds of thoughtless claims downplay actual mass killings like the one Israel is perpetrating against native Palestinians right now.
Hence why it's important to scrutinize news, sources and claims, and not throw around baseless ones.
I do think we need a democratically elected authority though, or you get corporations and billionaires steering the government to wage wars for their own selfish profit from oil, materials etc. like whatâs happening now with Israel. And rising inequality as wealth gathers at the top.
Perhaps a governing system like Cuba's, which is Socialist and has one of the most open democracies in the world. It has an unusually high percentage of women in the government compared to the rest of the world thanks to that; 53.22% now (U.S has 29.0%), and better LGBT rights than the US nowadays. Also free healthcare, and enough free high level education to provide Italy with doctors during the pandemic, despite the ongoing 60 year US embargo.
They're being brainwashed and sterilized, if you don't think that's genocide you're a dumbass and a piece of shit who wants them to die
Also $20 says this person isn't pro palestine or anti zionist, just pro Hamas and pro raping and murdering jews
I would say pro Putin people can't be called leftists they are nazis in red.
I don't think they're pro-Putin? Seem to be as much against Russian imperialism and capitalism as they are against US's.
Edit: Lmao one of the first comments I saw on there:
So yeah, not very "pro-Putin"
and I saw some very pro Putin shit in places like chapotraphouse,even people for the genocide of ukraine
I do wonder how much of that is Russian psyop. I feel like the whole chapotraphouse thing was started or at least very influenced by bad actors and propaganda bots. That place was a shitshow, for sure.
Probably none of it, but knowing how Russia is that wouldn't surprise me. That's just how tankies are, no need for russian intervention. They're just as bad as Nazis for "that genocide didn't happen, but if it did they deserved it" type shit
"I found literally one comment that doesn't support Putin so clearly the tankie instance doesn't support him!"
I literally have a hexbear account. People scream that the tankies love putin and that couldn't be further from the truth. USSR? Yes but they shit on modern day Russia a lot
I would tell you to go to hell for being on hexbear, but apparently you haven't been on there enough to see how pro-russia and pro-Putin tankies tend to be
And apparently you haven't been on there long enough to see how wrong you are. Link me this pro putin propaganda, I'll wait
Hey look literally your most recent comment is pushing the "meat grinder" narrative that Zelensky is evil for sending innocent people to die in "his" war of aggression xD
Yeah what's your point? It's pretty obvious that's what's happening. Fighting a losing battle, making no progress. You gonna tell me that Russias on the brink of collapse next?
You're so right bestie! Ukraine should just roll over and let Russia take all their land and children and treat them like shit :D
Cringe. You can work out a surrender without giving up your entire country. Would that not potentially be preferable to fighting a losing war to the last man?
r/genzedong and I think a couple other tankie subreddits literally got taken down for spreading pro-russia disinformation https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ban/ . I've seen a bunch of shit from them and from hexbear and grad about how Putin is based for denazifying Ukraine and shit, but no number of actual examples of that I could link would change your mind bc putin's boot just tastes too nice to you, so why would I even bother subjecting myself to cunts like you calling for Ukrainian and Jewish genocide?