I wonder how Israeli historians will remember this. Will they take take position of Germany and grow or US and justify all the shit because "we had to do it, we're great"
They will deny it. They already making sure to get rid of all journalists and refuse visa for new one.
Is that even possible with amount of records there are? They can kinda delay and twist the truth for a while but not for long.
Doesn't Turkey still deny they ever did a genocide, too?
Yup. There's still an outcry any time a foreign parliament declares an acknowledgement of the fact that there was such a thing as the Armenian genocide.
Japan still denies their share of ww2 atrocities, and I believe the US cut a deal with them for the results of those atrocities.
I just hope records are still being maintained. Digital records are fragile if not stored in a cloud.
I'm sorry what? Digital records, ones you can infinitely and cheaply copy and store are fragile? I've been seeing this meme come up now and then and I'm seriously perplexed how. People are literally spending billions to digitize stuff because it's easier to archive đź«Ł
Oops I dropped the laptop.
Oops the hackers encrypted all my data in a ransomware attack.
Oops my credit card expired, so my cloud storage didn't renew.
Oops I forgot the password to my encrypted thumb drive.
Oops I lost my micro SD card.
Oops I dropped my phone in the toilet.
Oops my photo hosting company went out of business 6 months ago and I forgot to download my photos.
Every one of those can be rebutted with a physical equivalent.
Except with digital you can reply with "it's okay I had 1000 copies of that document as I know it was important".
Just back up? Good luck backing up paper lol oops the elements erased everything đź«Ł
If it's distributed properly then yeah. If not then it's actually easier to get rid of than hard records.
Whatever keep building your strawmen lol
Internationall, it's a known fact. Of course the current goverment will try to deny it but in some (many) years in a different political context they might acknowledge it... Guess we'll see.
They're already saying “we had to do it, we’re great”. It'll take some government toppling before that tune changes.
it will need a boycott and sanctions on the international level for israelis to change. netty is in power by a coalition of parties that gained voters after this. no consequences, and israelis won't change their behaviour.
History and how it went is written by the winners not losers. Germany and the US took those stances because of who lost and who won. As long as israel „wins“ (in whatever definition) it will write its history as a winner.
That’s a meme, it’s not how history works or how it ever has worked.
You give too little credit to the German people.
Also genocide is critical part of Israel's existence so I'd be very disappointed if they don't seriously reflect on this at least. Though I guess you should never underestimate a cult.
Too little credit? You can't seriously believe they'd be in the same state today if they'd won WW2. The only reason there's been any reckoning is because they lost and were forced to confront their crimes.
There won't be a reckoning in Israel because they aren't going to lose and no one will force them to confront it.
Judging by their continued "unwavering support" for Israel, it looks like their "confronting with their crimes" and their "never again" was only ever the racism-preserving "Turns out Jews are like us so we really regret what we did to them" rather than the humanist "Something like this should never be done to anybody again".
Certainly Germany's posture in all this has been the deeply racist "We have to support the Jewish people no matter what" rather than the actual humanist posture of "Mass murdering people because of their etnicity is unacceptable no matter who does it".
The Nazis might have been kicked out of Germany by the Allies, but it looks like the cold calculating racist way of judging the worth of people and their right to live, using their etnicity, never left the German Hearth.
(I'm profoundly dissapointed with German and Germans in this)
How do you explain the difference between Germany and Japan in this regard?
Both statements can be true. Read it again.
Read what again? You said nothing other than Germans don't get enough credit, which is bunk, and then you talked about Israel. If anything, they get too much credit, we are talking about acknowledging genocide. It isn't something you should get credit for because it never should've happened in the first place. And it wasn't even a choice, outside forces compelled them to own up to what they did.
You are using two very different things interchangeably here: genocide and acknowledgement of genocide.
Acknowledgement isn’t the right description in any case, maybe education would be more accurate.
Germany „gets credit“ for it, because sadly, in comparison to most other nations, it does it well. And acknowledging this might make others reconsider.
Really? You shouldn't credit people for awareness and change?
Maybe if Americans did that you guys wouldn't be burning books about slavery lol
Germans continued to profess unwavering support for Israel as Palestinian children's bodies pilled up, so clearly their "awareness" isn't that "all mass murder of people simply for their etnicity is wrong" but rather the very specific "what we did to the Jewish People was wrong".
The former would've been "awareness", but judging by their behaviour in this what they've learned is not that a specific kind of action is wrong but rather that a specific instance against a specific people of acting thus is wrong - or if you will and using a metaphor, they didn't learn that stealing is wrong, they learned that them stealing from that specific target is wrong.
Learning to "Not steal from that person again" when caught and punished isn't really deserving of much credit.
As the rate of Palestinian children killed by Israel to Israelis killed by Hamas surpasses the infamous 10-to-1 of Nazi killings of random villagers in Occupied France in reprisal for German deaths at the hands of the French Resistance, the pro-Israel propagandists are still calling Israeli actions as "defense".
This is quite consistent with the last couple of decades of Israeli propaganda: Palestinians and even Arabs in general are always portrayed as "violent" (not Hamas or Hezbullah being violent, rather the entire etnical group is painted as "violent") and follows the playbook from Goebbels and the one generally used by Fascists (not just Nazis, though in terms of rabid racism, the Nazi kind of Fascism is the closest one to the what's voiced and the acts of the Israeli leadership and their military) were the target etnicity is painted as "violent" and "attacking us", thus justifying mass murder as "defense" or "protecting ourselves".
I expect the history they write will be anchored on that fantasy of "defense", whitewashing the extreme disproportion in deaths -most of which civilians - that would otherwise make it painfully obvious that what's being done is far beyond "defense", beyond even the racist kind of "reprisals" (racist because all Palestinians are made to pay for the acts of the tiny fraction of them which is Hamas) and into "ethnic cleansing" territory.
Today's evidence will be hard to destroy and deny. Cameras and shit.
I wonder how Israeli historians will remember this. Will they take take position of Germany and grow or US and justify all the shit because "we had to do it, we're great"
They will deny it. They already making sure to get rid of all journalists and refuse visa for new one.
Is that even possible with amount of records there are? They can kinda delay and twist the truth for a while but not for long.
Doesn't Turkey still deny they ever did a genocide, too?
Yup. There's still an outcry any time a foreign parliament declares an acknowledgement of the fact that there was such a thing as the Armenian genocide.
Japan still denies their share of ww2 atrocities, and I believe the US cut a deal with them for the results of those atrocities.
I just hope records are still being maintained. Digital records are fragile if not stored in a cloud.
I'm sorry what? Digital records, ones you can infinitely and cheaply copy and store are fragile? I've been seeing this meme come up now and then and I'm seriously perplexed how. People are literally spending billions to digitize stuff because it's easier to archive đź«Ł
Oops I dropped the laptop.
Oops the hackers encrypted all my data in a ransomware attack.
Oops my credit card expired, so my cloud storage didn't renew.
Oops I forgot the password to my encrypted thumb drive.
Oops I lost my micro SD card.
Oops I dropped my phone in the toilet.
Oops my photo hosting company went out of business 6 months ago and I forgot to download my photos.
Every one of those can be rebutted with a physical equivalent.
Except with digital you can reply with "it's okay I had 1000 copies of that document as I know it was important".
Just back up? Good luck backing up paper lol oops the elements erased everything đź«Ł
If it's distributed properly then yeah. If not then it's actually easier to get rid of than hard records.
Whatever keep building your strawmen lol
Internationall, it's a known fact. Of course the current goverment will try to deny it but in some (many) years in a different political context they might acknowledge it... Guess we'll see.
They're already saying “we had to do it, we’re great”. It'll take some government toppling before that tune changes.
it will need a boycott and sanctions on the international level for israelis to change. netty is in power by a coalition of parties that gained voters after this. no consequences, and israelis won't change their behaviour.
History and how it went is written by the winners not losers. Germany and the US took those stances because of who lost and who won. As long as israel „wins“ (in whatever definition) it will write its history as a winner.
That’s a meme, it’s not how history works or how it ever has worked.
You give too little credit to the German people.
Also genocide is critical part of Israel's existence so I'd be very disappointed if they don't seriously reflect on this at least. Though I guess you should never underestimate a cult.
Too little credit? You can't seriously believe they'd be in the same state today if they'd won WW2. The only reason there's been any reckoning is because they lost and were forced to confront their crimes.
There won't be a reckoning in Israel because they aren't going to lose and no one will force them to confront it.
Judging by their continued "unwavering support" for Israel, it looks like their "confronting with their crimes" and their "never again" was only ever the racism-preserving "Turns out Jews are like us so we really regret what we did to them" rather than the humanist "Something like this should never be done to anybody again".
Certainly Germany's posture in all this has been the deeply racist "We have to support the Jewish people no matter what" rather than the actual humanist posture of "Mass murdering people because of their etnicity is unacceptable no matter who does it".
The Nazis might have been kicked out of Germany by the Allies, but it looks like the cold calculating racist way of judging the worth of people and their right to live, using their etnicity, never left the German Hearth.
(I'm profoundly dissapointed with German and Germans in this)
How do you explain the difference between Germany and Japan in this regard?
Both statements can be true. Read it again.
Read what again? You said nothing other than Germans don't get enough credit, which is bunk, and then you talked about Israel. If anything, they get too much credit, we are talking about acknowledging genocide. It isn't something you should get credit for because it never should've happened in the first place. And it wasn't even a choice, outside forces compelled them to own up to what they did.
You are using two very different things interchangeably here: genocide and acknowledgement of genocide. Acknowledgement isn’t the right description in any case, maybe education would be more accurate. Germany „gets credit“ for it, because sadly, in comparison to most other nations, it does it well. And acknowledging this might make others reconsider.
Really? You shouldn't credit people for awareness and change?
Maybe if Americans did that you guys wouldn't be burning books about slavery lol
Germans continued to profess unwavering support for Israel as Palestinian children's bodies pilled up, so clearly their "awareness" isn't that "all mass murder of people simply for their etnicity is wrong" but rather the very specific "what we did to the Jewish People was wrong".
The former would've been "awareness", but judging by their behaviour in this what they've learned is not that a specific kind of action is wrong but rather that a specific instance against a specific people of acting thus is wrong - or if you will and using a metaphor, they didn't learn that stealing is wrong, they learned that them stealing from that specific target is wrong.
Learning to "Not steal from that person again" when caught and punished isn't really deserving of much credit.
Yep, and they proceeded to do it (partway through) in 1949.
As the rate of Palestinian children killed by Israel to Israelis killed by Hamas surpasses the infamous 10-to-1 of Nazi killings of random villagers in Occupied France in reprisal for German deaths at the hands of the French Resistance, the pro-Israel propagandists are still calling Israeli actions as "defense".
This is quite consistent with the last couple of decades of Israeli propaganda: Palestinians and even Arabs in general are always portrayed as "violent" (not Hamas or Hezbullah being violent, rather the entire etnical group is painted as "violent") and follows the playbook from Goebbels and the one generally used by Fascists (not just Nazis, though in terms of rabid racism, the Nazi kind of Fascism is the closest one to the what's voiced and the acts of the Israeli leadership and their military) were the target etnicity is painted as "violent" and "attacking us", thus justifying mass murder as "defense" or "protecting ourselves".
I expect the history they write will be anchored on that fantasy of "defense", whitewashing the extreme disproportion in deaths -most of which civilians - that would otherwise make it painfully obvious that what's being done is far beyond "defense", beyond even the racist kind of "reprisals" (racist because all Palestinians are made to pay for the acts of the tiny fraction of them which is Hamas) and into "ethnic cleansing" territory.
Today's evidence will be hard to destroy and deny. Cameras and shit.