And I still say doing a stunt that even makes it look like you've done some real damage to Stonehenge right in the middle of a religious festival does not make you look like the good guys. People in another thread said it spread awareness. Who isn't aware? I'm fully aware of climate change and there's fuck all I can do about it.
But at least it was not permanent vandalism.
Not only did they decide to do it in the middle of a religious festival, they did it in the middle of a festival that’s part of a religion that worships nature.
Who isn’t aware?
Like half of the world is in denial.
How would you spread awareness that translates to action?
Denial is not lack of awareness.
I don't know exactly how I would spread awareness, but I know exactly how I wouldn't: Making people think I damaged a beloved ancient monument during a religious festival... a religious festival, as someone else pointed out, for people who venerate nature.
How about, as an idea, paint bombing Shell Oil headquarters?
Clearly, a good portion of the population isn't aware of how serious the situation is, it's still an election issue.
If the right level of awareness was reached, having any kind of oil money around you would be a political death sentence. Instead, Trump has public bribe meetings with oil execs and his base grows because of it.
Ok, now please explain, since no one else will, why pissing people off is a good way to achieve that.
Have you ever convinced anyone of something by pissing them off?
They said the same about woman and gay rights movements. You can't make noise, block traffic or even talk about it without pissing people off.
Not to mention most of the anger is manufactured by oil execs and then enabled by people with little to no proper reasoning skills.
That's a little different from disrespecting a religious festival, isn't it?
Pivoting into religious rights about the summer solstice celebration. That's a stretch if I've ever seen one. I don't see why religious monuments should be exempt from harmless protests but I really doubt you would have called stone hedge one yesterday if it wasn't for it suiting your argument today.
Is that your stance. You are pissed because you think the religious rights of the revelers got trampled on?
First of all, I didn't say anything about rights. This is about respecting people. People who are on their side.
Secondly, it was a religious celebration, as it is for British Wiccans and other people of similar faiths every year.
Maybe you don't consider them religions or something, but they are.
MLK advanced civil rights by being a nuisance. Gandhi pushed Britain out of India by being a nuisance. I'm sure there are others.
It is in the nature of protest to be disruptive. It has to be. If it isn't, it gets ignored. Climate change is getting ignored. What would you rather they do, go deface an oil refinery? That'll just get them arrested and the news suppressed. Big public displays that can't be hushed are the only way to make sure your message reaches the world. These folks have been considerate enough to make sure that message didn't permanently damage its canvas. I don't know what more you could ask from them.
I said I was glad it wasn't damaged. I don't know what more you could ask from me.
I don't know... oil companies piss off lots of people when they cause oil spills...and yet they're rolling in profits day in and day out.
Maybe these protesters are trying imitate how oil companies behave since its works so well for them?
Damage the environment and make money if your an oil CEO. Temporarily color stone henge with zero damage and everyone loses their minds. Kinda backwards if you ask me.
It works for them because they have trillions of dollars at their disposal. The activists do not.
But you asked how pissing people off has ever convinced anyone of anything. Oil companies successfully do it all the time. Or any muilti billion dollar industry really.
I'm fully aware that money is the difference, and that's exactly why we shouldn't be shitting on the protesters.
We should be asking ourselves why it makes us so angry when protesters cause "damage" but dont have the same reaction to oil companies causing way more damage for profit. Human psychology is interesting.
I'm not seeing oil companies convincing lots of people that they're benevolent when they do bad things. Especially not after an oil spill. So your claim that that's what they're doing doesn't make much sense to me.
They convince people we need their product despite the damage they cause. They still get investors and convince them their company is profitable. They spend billions of dollars lobbying against alternative energy sources like solar, nuclear, and wind.... convincing people they aren't as viable as oil...when some already are and others could be with more R&D.
They convince governments to allow for more oil drilling sites, despite the environmental risks.
They do A LOT convincing all the time.
They don't convince people we need their product. We don't have a choice but use their product. I don't make ICEs cheaper than EVs. I don't get to choose what my power company decides to use to generate electricity. I don't get to tell corporations across the business spectrum not to use plastic.
Those are not choices I get to make. Or you.
Also, it's interesting how you skipped from people to governments as if there's no difference.
I'm not sure why you think any significant number of people like oil companies. Do you have any hard data to support that or is it just this sort of conjecture?
Have you seen people coal rolling? I see it all the time. I get the feeling they love oil companies. People who buy huge, gas guzzling SUVs and oversized trucks they dont need dont seem to have an issue with them.
Also governments are made up of people.... often elected officials that were VOTED for. I'm not saying everyone loves oil companies. But they convince enough people to like them enough to keep making money.
And that lobbying I mentioned earlier? Yeah, that's what keeps the rest of us locked into using their products whether we want to or not. They convinced someone, somewhere to stifle competition like EVs.
Do you think any of those people will see an event like this and change their minds? Those people don't even give a shit about other humans, let alone an ancient monument.
I will continue to maintain that pissing people off is not a good way to get them to take your side. I keep asking people if they've ever intentionally pissed off someone who disagreed with them into agreeing with them and no one has said yes so far.
Truth that people do not want to hear.. sad.
Why are you more angry about a stunt that did no damage than you are about actual ecological damage done by oil companies for profit?
How do you know what I'm more angry about?
By what you're crowing about.
I'm "crowing" about the subject of the article. Otherwise known as being on-topic.
The message is that people care more about non-damaging vandalism to famous objects than they do about climate change which will cause irreparable damage to many of these same objects, be it through hazardous weather, rising seas, or global conflict.
The message seems to be that I care more about it, which is just a lie people are accusing me of.
Not necessarily you or really any one person in general, but as a whole.
You might tell that to all the people who are acting like I don't give a shit about climate change rather than just questioning some activists' methods.
Industrial sabotage is whats needed at this point imo.
and there’s fuck all I can do about it.
Sounds like maybe you are lacking some awareness around this issue.
Okay, you tell me exactly what I'm supposed to do.
Do you have money or time to put towards it?
Lots of things but the easiest would be to find local orgs that have already developed political strategies relevant to your local political context and work with them. They can fill you in on the rest.
Climate change won’t be addressed until there is a much larger movement that can flex serious political power. Think civil rights movement—that’s the kind of organizing we need.
Okay, now what can I do when I'm so sick that I have to rest for hours after walking the dogs for 30 minutes?
Doing nothing would be a start since apparently, you are using that time to disparage the efforts of others.
You don't have to help, even though you have more than enough time from what you are saying. I know, it's not your fault, bla blah, you're a victim. You could just like not have a shitty attitude, that's all.
You're right, I will disparage people who think that the way to help is to piss people off.
The main ones being pissed off is the oil industry and that's who you are actually helping.
Why would the oil industry give a shit if people paint stonehenge?
They're happy that folks like you are focusing on the people throwing cornstarch rather than the people causing higher acidity in rain that's actually damaging Stonehenge.
I'm pretty sure the article is focusing on that and I'm commenting on the article.
And the oil industry is very happy that you keep your focus that narrow and you don't like outside of what you're presented by corporate media so we'll done, Shemp.
I'm keeping my focus that narrow in this comment section for this article. I'm staying on topic. You're being ridiculous.
There is much work to be done and not all of it is physical. I don’t know the specifics of your condition but you are here posting on social media. At minimum, there is likely a need for similar work to be done in support of your local orgs.
Again, if you find some local folks doing such work, I am sure they would help you find your niche.
So you're saying don't look like you're vandalizing an ancient monument during a religious festival held by nature worshipers? I agree and that was my point.
I am somewhat undecided about this action. It gets people talking (as we’re doing now) but it may also risk turning people away from the cause, especially those who are only casually interested or aware of the facts or issues.
But my point was your suggestion that everyone is already aware of climate change is absurd. Especially the follow up that no one can do anything about it. Sure, they’ve heard of it, but everyone is continuing to behave as if it doesn’t exist. There needs to be much greater awareness, discussion, and then action on this topic, and until such time we will need to do disruptive things to get people’s attention. I do prefer to disrupt the people most responsible, personally.
They answered what you can do and you completely ignored it.
I didn't ignore it. I read it. What did you want me to say about it specifically?
Well, something other than your usual ceaseless negativity would be refreshing.
I don't think I've ever seen you post something productive. It's just constant negativity, pessimism, tearing other people or ideas down.
I've never seen you react positively to a positive idea or add anything that would lead to any kind of actual improvement. And then when you ask "what can I possibly do" and someone replies with something you could actually do to contribute to the thing you're complaining about, there's no reply.
I get that you have tough life circumstances, but you're just not contributing anything to anyone with this stuff.
Well then you should look through my post history to correct your hilariously false view of me.
K, I just did. It was pretty reaffirming.
Then you must not have been very thorough, but you go ahead and believe what you like. The amusing thing is that you're berating me for not being productive which doesn't sound especially productive to me. Have you thought of being more productive?
(Also, what a corporate mindset! You must be productive even if you aren't being paid!)
Maybe do some labor and figure it out yourself instead of trying to pawn that off on everybody else???
As I said to someone else, the amount of labor I can do right now is about 30 minutes of walking every few hours.
But I'm not sure why I have to do anything to point out that pissing people off is not likely to get people on your side.
Not that kind of labor 🤦
What kind of labor then?
You're making me explain that there are more kinds of labor than just physical, which is asking me to perform mental and emotional labor just to educate your ignorant ass. You know search engines are a thing right? The Internet, you may have heard of it? It can be used to find information. Asking others to do this for you is imparting labor upon some random and you have been doing it all over this thread. I'm assuming in an effort to play dumb and/or exhaust anyone who thinks differently than you. You may not even realize that's what you're doing, but it is.
I stopped reading at "ignorant ass." Just because I didn't understand what you were trying to say to me was no reason for that. I asked you what you meant so I would understand.
I'm sorry you think people asking for clarification are ignorant asses, but perhaps it would behoove you to be more sympathetic to the ignorant in that case.
I didn't insult you at all.
You kind of did by trying to use your disability card (I've got one too!) to get out of googling what labor means by putting the expectation of telling you about it on me.
I insulted you by using my "disability card?" In what way?
Also, re the meaning of labor:
None of those explain what you meant. I am not psychic.
If you'd been paying attention, you'd know it wasn't permanent from the get go.
I was paying attention. That doesn't mean I don't wait for experts to say that it really isn't permanent.
Unless you are assuming the environmental protesters were geologists and familiar with whether or not things like getting into cracks would make a difference at Stonehenge. I don't see a reason to make such an assumption.
They said it was orange corn flour all along, and they have a history of not actually damaging anything but using the appearance of "damage" to make a point. Corn flour is a very simple, inert substance. You're actually demonstrating the hypocrisy that this group is trying to highlight - more concern over something like corn flour damaging these rocks than the damage done by millions of barrels of crude oil extracted every day. Where's your outrage over acid/micro plastic in rain that falls on these stone every week? There will be new species of moss that grow on these rocks, or pollen that blows on them from invasive species, possibly damaging them as the climate heats up - are you worried about that? Why can folks summon outrage over something inert that touched a famous rock, but not for destruction of the actual biosphere? If Stonehenge is that fragile, why are people allowed anywhere near it? You're more than welcome to disagree with them, but if you spend more energy complaining about Just Stop Oil than you do complaining about actual oil companies, you're actually just supporting the oil companies.
Am I not allowed to be concerned about both climate change and an important ancient monument? Are you not able to be concerned about more than one thing at a time?
That is what I was hoping to hear.
And I still say doing a stunt that even makes it look like you've done some real damage to Stonehenge right in the middle of a religious festival does not make you look like the good guys. People in another thread said it spread awareness. Who isn't aware? I'm fully aware of climate change and there's fuck all I can do about it.
But at least it was not permanent vandalism.
Not only did they decide to do it in the middle of a religious festival, they did it in the middle of a festival that’s part of a religion that worships nature.
Like half of the world is in denial.
How would you spread awareness that translates to action?
Denial is not lack of awareness.
I don't know exactly how I would spread awareness, but I know exactly how I wouldn't: Making people think I damaged a beloved ancient monument during a religious festival... a religious festival, as someone else pointed out, for people who venerate nature.
How about, as an idea, paint bombing Shell Oil headquarters?
Clearly, a good portion of the population isn't aware of how serious the situation is, it's still an election issue.
If the right level of awareness was reached, having any kind of oil money around you would be a political death sentence. Instead, Trump has public bribe meetings with oil execs and his base grows because of it.
Ok, now please explain, since no one else will, why pissing people off is a good way to achieve that.
Have you ever convinced anyone of something by pissing them off?
They said the same about woman and gay rights movements. You can't make noise, block traffic or even talk about it without pissing people off.
Not to mention most of the anger is manufactured by oil execs and then enabled by people with little to no proper reasoning skills.
That's a little different from disrespecting a religious festival, isn't it?
Pivoting into religious rights about the summer solstice celebration. That's a stretch if I've ever seen one. I don't see why religious monuments should be exempt from harmless protests but I really doubt you would have called stone hedge one yesterday if it wasn't for it suiting your argument today.
Is that your stance. You are pissed because you think the religious rights of the revelers got trampled on?
First of all, I didn't say anything about rights. This is about respecting people. People who are on their side.
Secondly, it was a religious celebration, as it is for British Wiccans and other people of similar faiths every year.
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/21/1183408306/summer-solstice-brings-druids-pagans-and-thousands-of-curious-people-to-stonehen
Maybe you don't consider them religions or something, but they are.
MLK advanced civil rights by being a nuisance. Gandhi pushed Britain out of India by being a nuisance. I'm sure there are others.
It is in the nature of protest to be disruptive. It has to be. If it isn't, it gets ignored. Climate change is getting ignored. What would you rather they do, go deface an oil refinery? That'll just get them arrested and the news suppressed. Big public displays that can't be hushed are the only way to make sure your message reaches the world. These folks have been considerate enough to make sure that message didn't permanently damage its canvas. I don't know what more you could ask from them.
I said I was glad it wasn't damaged. I don't know what more you could ask from me.
I don't know... oil companies piss off lots of people when they cause oil spills...and yet they're rolling in profits day in and day out.
Maybe these protesters are trying imitate how oil companies behave since its works so well for them?
Damage the environment and make money if your an oil CEO. Temporarily color stone henge with zero damage and everyone loses their minds. Kinda backwards if you ask me.
It works for them because they have trillions of dollars at their disposal. The activists do not.
But you asked how pissing people off has ever convinced anyone of anything. Oil companies successfully do it all the time. Or any muilti billion dollar industry really.
I'm fully aware that money is the difference, and that's exactly why we shouldn't be shitting on the protesters.
We should be asking ourselves why it makes us so angry when protesters cause "damage" but dont have the same reaction to oil companies causing way more damage for profit. Human psychology is interesting.
I'm not seeing oil companies convincing lots of people that they're benevolent when they do bad things. Especially not after an oil spill. So your claim that that's what they're doing doesn't make much sense to me.
They convince people we need their product despite the damage they cause. They still get investors and convince them their company is profitable. They spend billions of dollars lobbying against alternative energy sources like solar, nuclear, and wind.... convincing people they aren't as viable as oil...when some already are and others could be with more R&D. They convince governments to allow for more oil drilling sites, despite the environmental risks.
They do A LOT convincing all the time.
They don't convince people we need their product. We don't have a choice but use their product. I don't make ICEs cheaper than EVs. I don't get to choose what my power company decides to use to generate electricity. I don't get to tell corporations across the business spectrum not to use plastic.
Those are not choices I get to make. Or you.
Also, it's interesting how you skipped from people to governments as if there's no difference.
I'm not sure why you think any significant number of people like oil companies. Do you have any hard data to support that or is it just this sort of conjecture?
Have you seen people coal rolling? I see it all the time. I get the feeling they love oil companies. People who buy huge, gas guzzling SUVs and oversized trucks they dont need dont seem to have an issue with them. Also governments are made up of people.... often elected officials that were VOTED for. I'm not saying everyone loves oil companies. But they convince enough people to like them enough to keep making money.
And that lobbying I mentioned earlier? Yeah, that's what keeps the rest of us locked into using their products whether we want to or not. They convinced someone, somewhere to stifle competition like EVs.
Do you think any of those people will see an event like this and change their minds? Those people don't even give a shit about other humans, let alone an ancient monument.
I will continue to maintain that pissing people off is not a good way to get them to take your side. I keep asking people if they've ever intentionally pissed off someone who disagreed with them into agreeing with them and no one has said yes so far.
Truth that people do not want to hear.. sad.
Why are you more angry about a stunt that did no damage than you are about actual ecological damage done by oil companies for profit?
How do you know what I'm more angry about?
By what you're crowing about.
I'm "crowing" about the subject of the article. Otherwise known as being on-topic.
The message is that people care more about non-damaging vandalism to famous objects than they do about climate change which will cause irreparable damage to many of these same objects, be it through hazardous weather, rising seas, or global conflict.
The message seems to be that I care more about it, which is just a lie people are accusing me of.
Not necessarily you or really any one person in general, but as a whole.
You might tell that to all the people who are acting like I don't give a shit about climate change rather than just questioning some activists' methods.
Industrial sabotage is whats needed at this point imo.
Sounds like maybe you are lacking some awareness around this issue.
Okay, you tell me exactly what I'm supposed to do.
Do you have money or time to put towards it?
Lots of things but the easiest would be to find local orgs that have already developed political strategies relevant to your local political context and work with them. They can fill you in on the rest.
Climate change won’t be addressed until there is a much larger movement that can flex serious political power. Think civil rights movement—that’s the kind of organizing we need.
Okay, now what can I do when I'm so sick that I have to rest for hours after walking the dogs for 30 minutes?
Doing nothing would be a start since apparently, you are using that time to disparage the efforts of others.
You don't have to help, even though you have more than enough time from what you are saying. I know, it's not your fault, bla blah, you're a victim. You could just like not have a shitty attitude, that's all.
You're right, I will disparage people who think that the way to help is to piss people off.
The main ones being pissed off is the oil industry and that's who you are actually helping.
Why would the oil industry give a shit if people paint stonehenge?
They're happy that folks like you are focusing on the people throwing cornstarch rather than the people causing higher acidity in rain that's actually damaging Stonehenge.
I'm pretty sure the article is focusing on that and I'm commenting on the article.
And the oil industry is very happy that you keep your focus that narrow and you don't like outside of what you're presented by corporate media so we'll done, Shemp.
I'm keeping my focus that narrow in this comment section for this article. I'm staying on topic. You're being ridiculous.
There is much work to be done and not all of it is physical. I don’t know the specifics of your condition but you are here posting on social media. At minimum, there is likely a need for similar work to be done in support of your local orgs.
Again, if you find some local folks doing such work, I am sure they would help you find your niche.
So you're saying don't look like you're vandalizing an ancient monument during a religious festival held by nature worshipers? I agree and that was my point.
I am somewhat undecided about this action. It gets people talking (as we’re doing now) but it may also risk turning people away from the cause, especially those who are only casually interested or aware of the facts or issues.
But my point was your suggestion that everyone is already aware of climate change is absurd. Especially the follow up that no one can do anything about it. Sure, they’ve heard of it, but everyone is continuing to behave as if it doesn’t exist. There needs to be much greater awareness, discussion, and then action on this topic, and until such time we will need to do disruptive things to get people’s attention. I do prefer to disrupt the people most responsible, personally.
They answered what you can do and you completely ignored it.
I didn't ignore it. I read it. What did you want me to say about it specifically?
Well, something other than your usual ceaseless negativity would be refreshing.
I don't think I've ever seen you post something productive. It's just constant negativity, pessimism, tearing other people or ideas down.
I've never seen you react positively to a positive idea or add anything that would lead to any kind of actual improvement. And then when you ask "what can I possibly do" and someone replies with something you could actually do to contribute to the thing you're complaining about, there's no reply.
I get that you have tough life circumstances, but you're just not contributing anything to anyone with this stuff.
Well then you should look through my post history to correct your hilariously false view of me.
K, I just did. It was pretty reaffirming.
Then you must not have been very thorough, but you go ahead and believe what you like. The amusing thing is that you're berating me for not being productive which doesn't sound especially productive to me. Have you thought of being more productive?
(Also, what a corporate mindset! You must be productive even if you aren't being paid!)
Maybe do some labor and figure it out yourself instead of trying to pawn that off on everybody else???
As I said to someone else, the amount of labor I can do right now is about 30 minutes of walking every few hours.
But I'm not sure why I have to do anything to point out that pissing people off is not likely to get people on your side.
Not that kind of labor 🤦
What kind of labor then?
You're making me explain that there are more kinds of labor than just physical, which is asking me to perform mental and emotional labor just to educate your ignorant ass. You know search engines are a thing right? The Internet, you may have heard of it? It can be used to find information. Asking others to do this for you is imparting labor upon some random and you have been doing it all over this thread. I'm assuming in an effort to play dumb and/or exhaust anyone who thinks differently than you. You may not even realize that's what you're doing, but it is.
I stopped reading at "ignorant ass." Just because I didn't understand what you were trying to say to me was no reason for that. I asked you what you meant so I would understand.
I'm sorry you think people asking for clarification are ignorant asses, but perhaps it would behoove you to be more sympathetic to the ignorant in that case.
I didn't insult you at all.
You kind of did by trying to use your disability card (I've got one too!) to get out of googling what labor means by putting the expectation of telling you about it on me.
I insulted you by using my "disability card?" In what way?
Also, re the meaning of labor:
None of those explain what you meant. I am not psychic.
If you'd been paying attention, you'd know it wasn't permanent from the get go.
I was paying attention. That doesn't mean I don't wait for experts to say that it really isn't permanent.
Unless you are assuming the environmental protesters were geologists and familiar with whether or not things like getting into cracks would make a difference at Stonehenge. I don't see a reason to make such an assumption.
They said it was orange corn flour all along, and they have a history of not actually damaging anything but using the appearance of "damage" to make a point. Corn flour is a very simple, inert substance. You're actually demonstrating the hypocrisy that this group is trying to highlight - more concern over something like corn flour damaging these rocks than the damage done by millions of barrels of crude oil extracted every day. Where's your outrage over acid/micro plastic in rain that falls on these stone every week? There will be new species of moss that grow on these rocks, or pollen that blows on them from invasive species, possibly damaging them as the climate heats up - are you worried about that? Why can folks summon outrage over something inert that touched a famous rock, but not for destruction of the actual biosphere? If Stonehenge is that fragile, why are people allowed anywhere near it? You're more than welcome to disagree with them, but if you spend more energy complaining about Just Stop Oil than you do complaining about actual oil companies, you're actually just supporting the oil companies.
https://professortorberts.com/shop/
Am I not allowed to be concerned about both climate change and an important ancient monument? Are you not able to be concerned about more than one thing at a time?
Butter corn syrup!