“The doctor’s judgment of non-viable was likely correct, but sometimes you hear that physicians give a horrible report and then it turns out expectedly better, so there’s always that risk,” Olsen said. “The doctor needs to do all he can to preserve the life of both of them.”
So this politician is second guessing the doctor because "it might have turned out that the doctor was wrong." In other words, doctors' expertise and judgement means nothing if someone with no medical training at all is able to say "but maybe everything will be fine."
As horrible as it is, I don't blame the doctors and hospitals for being scared to perform abortions under these laws. They're tailored to give the appearance of having "life of the mother" exceptions while allowing every case to be second guessed by anyone with zero medical expertise. And if a judge sides with the zero medical expertise individual, then the hospital/doctor could be on the hook for huge fines or even prison time.
All while women suffer and die because life saving treatment is being denied thanks to "we need to think of the fetus' potential life more than the woman's life."
I mean the US has been fine with letting insurance companies second guess doctor's decisions forever why not governments too.
This is disingenuous at best. While insurance companies may not offer to pay for "unnecessary" services, they also do not actively prevent doctors from doing them. Sure, someone might go bankrupt because of medical debt, but they aren't dying and no doctors are going to prison for doing what they think is in the best interest of the patient.
So what the government is doing here is more malicious than what insurance companies routinely do.
No they just actively decide not to pay for them which in America is basically the same as a denial of treatment. When people have to decide between paying for healthcare, meds, or food and shelter we have a problem.
Agreed. I had to get surgery last year that the insurance company initially didn't want to pay for. Before that got settled, the hospital said it would be $15,000 with half as a down payment.
Not to "no you" but this take is pretty disingenuous considering the high cost of health care, especially when you remove any negotiated rates that may bring it to a more reasonable number, but granting that there may be some "cash discount" rate as well.
Regardless, it's theoretically possible but practically speaking it still blocks treatment for many.
A fetus developing without a skull turning out better than expected is a totally reasonable argument. Just lookt at half the members of the republican party and where they are now. No brains needed!
This is the problem with non-medical personnel making broad strokes medical decisions. Lives can and will be lost.
Giving unqualified people unilateral power to inflict violence is the fundamental underpinning of the American conservative movement, but you'll notice that people are only ever empowered to make a decision the GOP agrees with. Any idiot off the street can declare an abortion to be not medically necessary, but an entire conference room full of doctors isn't considered enough to delcare one necessary. Anyone can declare a book inappropriate, but if the vote is 99 to 1 in favor of the book being appropriate the 1 wins and the book is banned. Anyone can declare an election illegitimate, and if someone does then no amount of evidence of legitimacy is enough to settle the matter and any "evidence", no matter matter how spurious the evidence or unreliable the person delivering it, is taken as absolute proof. In this way they can convince their base that they're fighting for freedom, but they're really only fighting for their own freedom and if anyone uses that freedom incorrectly they will inflict violence on them.
It displays the sheer ignorance of conservatives. Probably more like unwillingness to learn, or the inability to understand that not every pregnancy is a magical angel from Jesus. It’s difficult to separate science from folklore. It’s the christians. Their evangelism only creates extremism.
All religion do that, then there some people that takes it to the extreme
I would argue the people taking it to the "extreme" are diverting away from religion, or at least what the original intention of the religion is.
or at least what the original intention of the religion is.
Control of resources and people?
Bingo.
True, religion as its core is to help people going through something hard. Or my opinion about it is. I've never been much of a religious person. And don't have anything against religion as its core, but so many weaker forces others and take to violence if they dont get what they want. But I agree with you
It's about control. Organized religion was created in a time of ancient expanding empires, and not having the resources to police remote areas of their territory, they turned to mass brainwashing instead to keep people in line.
Often, the main ruler would be second to the religion's deity(s) and were considered divine themselves. This was to give the rulers legitimacy.
Exactly. As an example, that's the reason monotheism was made a state religion and the books of the Septuagint were assembled from religious writings and traditions of north and south Judea. (God has multiple titles corresponding to different gods of each region, two creation stories, the flood myth tracing back to Mesopotamia, the anachronistic tales of conquest, and the overall theme of sticking to one religion or else).
It's willfull ignorance. The absolute refusal to learn.
unwillingness to learn care
FTFY
it sure is different and they'll take the abortion if they impregnated one of their misstresses.
Man, fuck this state
“Ooooooklahoma!”
Is this a great state, or what?!?
Every time we are in the news it's nothing good. We release a man from prison who been on death roll 48 years. He was innocent. THE SAME FUCKING DAY Oklahoma excuted another man. Like really what if he was innocent too. ( I know about him) but would think state would stop execution and make goddamm sure.
So this politician is second guessing the doctor because "it might have turned out that the doctor was wrong." In other words, doctors' expertise and judgement means nothing if someone with no medical training at all is able to say "but maybe everything will be fine."
As horrible as it is, I don't blame the doctors and hospitals for being scared to perform abortions under these laws. They're tailored to give the appearance of having "life of the mother" exceptions while allowing every case to be second guessed by anyone with zero medical expertise. And if a judge sides with the zero medical expertise individual, then the hospital/doctor could be on the hook for huge fines or even prison time.
All while women suffer and die because life saving treatment is being denied thanks to "we need to think of the fetus' potential life more than the woman's life."
I mean the US has been fine with letting insurance companies second guess doctor's decisions forever why not governments too.
This is disingenuous at best. While insurance companies may not offer to pay for "unnecessary" services, they also do not actively prevent doctors from doing them. Sure, someone might go bankrupt because of medical debt, but they aren't dying and no doctors are going to prison for doing what they think is in the best interest of the patient.
So what the government is doing here is more malicious than what insurance companies routinely do.
No they just actively decide not to pay for them which in America is basically the same as a denial of treatment. When people have to decide between paying for healthcare, meds, or food and shelter we have a problem.
Agreed. I had to get surgery last year that the insurance company initially didn't want to pay for. Before that got settled, the hospital said it would be $15,000 with half as a down payment.
I don't know... The federal government has a whole page to help with appealing insurance claim denials and if ProPublica has taken an interest in the matter I won't put much faith in the insurance companies (I wouldn't anyways, but ya know)
Not to "no you" but this take is pretty disingenuous considering the high cost of health care, especially when you remove any negotiated rates that may bring it to a more reasonable number, but granting that there may be some "cash discount" rate as well.
Regardless, it's theoretically possible but practically speaking it still blocks treatment for many.
A fetus developing without a skull turning out better than expected is a totally reasonable argument. Just lookt at half the members of the republican party and where they are now. No brains needed!
This is the problem with non-medical personnel making broad strokes medical decisions. Lives can and will be lost.
Giving unqualified people unilateral power to inflict violence is the fundamental underpinning of the American conservative movement, but you'll notice that people are only ever empowered to make a decision the GOP agrees with. Any idiot off the street can declare an abortion to be not medically necessary, but an entire conference room full of doctors isn't considered enough to delcare one necessary. Anyone can declare a book inappropriate, but if the vote is 99 to 1 in favor of the book being appropriate the 1 wins and the book is banned. Anyone can declare an election illegitimate, and if someone does then no amount of evidence of legitimacy is enough to settle the matter and any "evidence", no matter matter how spurious the evidence or unreliable the person delivering it, is taken as absolute proof. In this way they can convince their base that they're fighting for freedom, but they're really only fighting for their own freedom and if anyone uses that freedom incorrectly they will inflict violence on them.
It displays the sheer ignorance of conservatives. Probably more like unwillingness to learn, or the inability to understand that not every pregnancy is a magical angel from Jesus. It’s difficult to separate science from folklore. It’s the christians. Their evangelism only creates extremism.
All religion do that, then there some people that takes it to the extreme
I would argue the people taking it to the "extreme" are diverting away from religion, or at least what the original intention of the religion is.
Control of resources and people?
Bingo.
True, religion as its core is to help people going through something hard. Or my opinion about it is. I've never been much of a religious person. And don't have anything against religion as its core, but so many weaker forces others and take to violence if they dont get what they want. But I agree with you
It's about control. Organized religion was created in a time of ancient expanding empires, and not having the resources to police remote areas of their territory, they turned to mass brainwashing instead to keep people in line.
Often, the main ruler would be second to the religion's deity(s) and were considered divine themselves. This was to give the rulers legitimacy.
Exactly. As an example, that's the reason monotheism was made a state religion and the books of the Septuagint were assembled from religious writings and traditions of north and south Judea. (God has multiple titles corresponding to different gods of each region, two creation stories, the flood myth tracing back to Mesopotamia, the anachronistic tales of conquest, and the overall theme of sticking to one religion or else).
It's willfull ignorance. The absolute refusal to learn.
FTFY
it sure is different and they'll take the abortion if they impregnated one of their misstresses.
Man, fuck this state
“Ooooooklahoma!”
Is this a great state, or what?!?
Every time we are in the news it's nothing good. We release a man from prison who been on death roll 48 years. He was innocent. THE SAME FUCKING DAY Oklahoma excuted another man. Like really what if he was innocent too. ( I know about him) but would think state would stop execution and make goddamm sure.