As long as three different religions all think important fiction occured in Jerusalem I don't think there will ever be peace in Israel. Does that mean a Palestinian state should not exist? No. It absolutely should and could.
I think this is widespread myth. This has been a heavily populated region for thousands of years, and most of them haven't looked like the last 70.
Also, I think we need to stop talking about Palestine should exist" and start working towards the one-state solution.
Tell the people building a wall to keep the other people caged off about a "one-state" solution.
You can argue "there are good/bad people on both sides" doesn't change that one segment of the population is being treated like a caged dog...
...And then we wonder why the dog bites the hand that feeds it.
Honestly, I'm not sure what your point is, but the One State Solution is the the preferred outcome of most Palestinian youth and most antizionists. Among everyone familiar with the issue on both sides, it's clear that the two state solution is dead, and only exists as an empty phrase to delay the only remaining option which would give Palestinians any civil rights.
I'm rewriting this for a third time to try to avoid cursing at you because I want to model the nonviolent communication I want to see more of in these discussions.
Your comment infuriates me because I'm trying to promote what I -- and at this point, I think, the majority of Palestinians under 30 -- see as the only future where Palestinians are able to receive their basic rights. Which is to acknowledge their land as Israeli territory and they as oppressed citizens of Israel and proceed with demands for civil rights from there. And I don't appreciate glib statements in the midst of a tragedy.
Did the Israeli ruling government set this in motion?* Yes.* Do noncombatants on either side deserve to die because of that? No. Fucking no. I'm just not in a joking mood about this.
The suggestion that if Israel simply lifted the blockade and stopped all security operations in the West Ban there would be complete peace is ridiculously idealistic and naive.
You are not going to convince a nation that just saw hundreds of citizens brutally murdered and kidnapped that the only thing they have to do is fully open the borders and smile, and then the people who just murdered them will come out and be their friends.
The inverse is also true. Israel has kept these people bottled up in what amounts to open air concentration camps for the last 70 years, and constantly killing Palestinians for that entire time.
Israel has never cared about collateral damage in their war on the people who lived there before.
So imagine a people, treated like criminals for their entire lives, all because they lived on the land that Zionists wanted.
All that resentment for the unceasing oppression let the worst elements gain power.
The path to change is not to expect the oppressed to stop lashing out. Only in ending the oppression can there be change.
But the Israeli government isn't interested in stopping the oppression. They could have done that at any time in the last 70 years. No, they seem to want a full genocide.
The reason that Israel doesn’t go full speed on genocide is the same reason why they never actually pursue peace. That is, the ruling authority there benefits from having a persistent threat. They get to maintain and build power and wealth while genociding in a slow enough fashion to not raise a critical mass of objections from their benefactors in the United States.
This isn't that profound an observation, because the same sentiment works in reverse from the point of view of Palestine. There's no way that they can appease Israeli revanchism. That's why the situation is so intractable.
This is a ridiculous straw man.
Look up how many civilians were killed on both sides since the beginning of this clusterfuck.
You know as well as I do that if Hamas was successful every time it tried to murder an Israeli, those death tolls would be much much closer.
Are you saying that if Israel let more of its civilians die, it would be less morally culpable?
I cannot imagine success as killing someone. Also, you are speculating on what might happen with people's lives.
IMHO civilians dying in any circumstances is dumb af. This includes them directly dying as a result of war and indirectly dying as a result of economic and political maneuvers, blocades, shitty things.
My point is that there is a difference between attacking a building that is shooting rockets at your civilians and slaughtering 200 civilians at a festival, taking 130 hostages, raping women and parading their naked bodies through the streets, and decapitating people.
Israel is not in any sense perfect, but it least attempts to minimize civilian casualties. The IDF is not roaming through the West Bank murdering every Palestinian it sees, whereas that's exactly what Hamas was doing two days ago.
We are mostly saying the same thing. There is a reason why what happened happened and as far as I am concerned both sides are terrorists. Is raping women any worse than imposing a blocade that literally equals people fucking starving to death? Yes, it's shocking. Genocide is genocide no mater how you slice it.
Nobody is saying that 100% of the Palestinians would then make peace by doing that. But doing so would rob Hamas of all its popularity. Palestinians turned to it because they had no other choice; Abbas was doing nothing to stop the slaughter of Palestinians and asking the world for help got nowhere. Conversely, if all attacks by Palestinians stopped for good then most of the Israeli rightwing would be abandoned by the Israeli public. These two groups are not as different as you think.
Palestinians are the only ones who can end this conflict. It's been half a century, and they have never once been willing to accept a solution that didn't include "Right of Return"... a mechanism by which they would overwhelmingly claim voting rights in Israel, and essentially vote Israel into an anti-Jewish Muslim theocracy.
Israel won't agree to any peace deal that would see it voted out of existence.
Israel is also able to thrive even under the threat of terrorism.
They can wait forever.
The ball is in the Palestinians's court.
This conflict will be over the day they say to themselves, "hey gang... Uh, I don't think we're going to get our land back. And I'm tired of living in poverty. Let's take the shit peace deal and get some land and autonomy, and look forward instead of backward.
There's no other way this ends. Anything else is a fantasy.
And I've never seen the anti-Israel crowd come up with a single coherent rebuttal to this.
The whole fact that you see the wrongdoings of only one of the sides in this conflict speaks volumes.
Sorry but you too are a product of your state media propaganda. Just from the other side of the barricade. And sorry to disappoint you but that doesn't make you morally superior.
I see wrongs on both sides. But I also see that Israel has a history of trying to make peace, and of making piece with their other neighbors.
All I've ever seen from Palestinians is terrorism and rejecting peace deals.
Your view on the peace process is disturbingly simplistic and inaccurate. There were attempts on both sides and both sides failed to reach a compromise but saying that all the fault lay with one of the sides comes to prove that you fail to see the issue with all its nuances.
Oh really. Name one time in history that the Palestinians agreed to a peace deal that wouldn't have left Israel with indefensible borders or a "right of return" which would allow Palestinians to essentially vote in overwhelming numbers to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy?
Ah yes, why shall we grant them voting rights, it is so much better to create a humanitarian crisis, endlessly increase the buffer zones and the restrictions on the Palestinians, depriving them from food, clean water, fuel, expel them from their homes, create even more illegal settlements and then act surprised when they revolt.
Why should we care for civilian lives on the other side of the fence. /s
Right?
Correct. Giving Palestinians the ability to vote Israel out of existence, and turn it into a Jew-hating Muslim theocracy is absolutely the worse option of those two.
Peace cannot begin and end with asking Jews to opt in to suicide.
You conveniently forget that your population is a lot higher than that of the Palestinians and even if all the Palestinians come to Israel it won't happen. So your solution to the problem is to keep Palestinians still in this open air prison, oppress them economically, and with resources, severely restrict their freedom rights, expel them from their homes, etc. Here we are not talking about a small group of people, but a couple of millions.
Current events displaced already 123.000 people, same people are currently sheltering in schools, etc. Soon the whole population of Palestine won't have access to fresh water, electricity, fuel. You cannot even comprehend the extent of this. Have you ever tried to put in the shoes of the people who are living behind that fence. No. Because you simply don't care. Do you truly believe that all of those people are complicit and deserve this suffering. If you are subject to such oppression what would you seriously do?
So tell me now how are you any different from the people who are celebrating on the streets the civilian casualties?
And can you please remind me what exactly you have learned from history, your own history, not too long ago. Do you truly believe long term oppression is the solution and a recipe for peace?
You're not considering the population growth rate in Gaza is considerably higher than in Israel.
The demographic shift would have a massive impact on Israeli democracy, even if a complete theocracy was not immediately on the table.
For comparison, imagine what would happen to any swing state if you introduced 20 percent of voters from deep red Alabama.
How long until books are banned?
My solution to the problem is a two-state solution where Palestinians take whatever Israel is willing to offer at this point.
Palestinians have ZERO leverage in this situation. They lost. The lost decades upon decades ago.
If they loved their children more than they hate the Jews, they would cut their losses and rebuild.
It really is exactly that simple. Because Israel will never budge, and they are getting better and better at defense themselves over time.
Economically, Israel is thriving. They can wait forever. That's the political reality.
And if you think the answer is pulling international support from Israel, consider that China or some other world power would love to have a foothold in that region, and Israel will have have no problem finding other allies if we want to give up access to intelligence in that region.
The two state solution isn't workable, because Israel will never allow a viable Palestinian state. The only three options are
genocide
a permanent state of apartheid
giving the Palestinians the vote and letting the political chips fall however they may
All three options have downsides, but in my view the third choice is the only one that's sustainable in the long run and not morally monstrous. But I have no confidence at all that that's the pathway that will be chosen.
What, pray you, is the nuanced downside to genocide?
Edit: lol I forgot the /s didn't think it was necessary. Your wording was funny to say there's a downside to all 3 like genocide is even an option
Nobody left to feed the cats
Bad press. Gotta worry about stray kids getting all angry and coming at you years later. It’s a lot of work. But, they learned from ze Germans
Guaranteed the Israeli govt talks about it as a viable option, the blasé attitude of their soldiers when it comes to shooting children or anyone not Israeli is an example. They’re just as bad as the saudis, our money lets them have carte blanche for whatever the fuck they want to do
No more Palestinian food. /s
I'm not promoting genocide. That's definitely a downside lol
People die.
Looks like the author is suffering from amnesia.
Always so interesting when these things happen, every internet commenter is an expert on any complex situation.
As long as three different religions all think important fiction occured in Jerusalem I don't think there will ever be peace in Israel. Does that mean a Palestinian state should not exist? No. It absolutely should and could.
I think this is widespread myth. This has been a heavily populated region for thousands of years, and most of them haven't looked like the last 70.
Also, I think we need to stop talking about Palestine should exist" and start working towards the one-state solution.
Tell the people building a wall to keep the other people caged off about a "one-state" solution.
You can argue "there are good/bad people on both sides" doesn't change that one segment of the population is being treated like a caged dog...
...And then we wonder why the dog bites the hand that feeds it.
Honestly, I'm not sure what your point is, but the One State Solution is the the preferred outcome of most Palestinian youth and most antizionists. Among everyone familiar with the issue on both sides, it's clear that the two state solution is dead, and only exists as an empty phrase to delay the only remaining option which would give Palestinians any civil rights.
https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/palestinian-youth-and-the-futility-of-the-two-state-solution/
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution
https://www.thecairoreview.com/essays/the-case-for-the-one-state-solution/
One state solution?
I agree, let’s abolish Israel.
I'm rewriting this for a third time to try to avoid cursing at you because I want to model the nonviolent communication I want to see more of in these discussions.
Your comment infuriates me because I'm trying to promote what I -- and at this point, I think, the majority of Palestinians under 30 -- see as the only future where Palestinians are able to receive their basic rights. Which is to acknowledge their land as Israeli territory and they as oppressed citizens of Israel and proceed with demands for civil rights from there. And I don't appreciate glib statements in the midst of a tragedy.
Did the Israeli ruling government set this in motion?* Yes.* Do noncombatants on either side deserve to die because of that? No. Fucking no. I'm just not in a joking mood about this.
And to anyone upvoting this: please take that anger and sign up for the mailing list of the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights. Do something useful.
The suggestion that if Israel simply lifted the blockade and stopped all security operations in the West Ban there would be complete peace is ridiculously idealistic and naive.
You are not going to convince a nation that just saw hundreds of citizens brutally murdered and kidnapped that the only thing they have to do is fully open the borders and smile, and then the people who just murdered them will come out and be their friends.
The inverse is also true. Israel has kept these people bottled up in what amounts to open air concentration camps for the last 70 years, and constantly killing Palestinians for that entire time.
Israel has never cared about collateral damage in their war on the people who lived there before.
So imagine a people, treated like criminals for their entire lives, all because they lived on the land that Zionists wanted.
All that resentment for the unceasing oppression let the worst elements gain power.
The path to change is not to expect the oppressed to stop lashing out. Only in ending the oppression can there be change.
But the Israeli government isn't interested in stopping the oppression. They could have done that at any time in the last 70 years. No, they seem to want a full genocide.
The reason that Israel doesn’t go full speed on genocide is the same reason why they never actually pursue peace. That is, the ruling authority there benefits from having a persistent threat. They get to maintain and build power and wealth while genociding in a slow enough fashion to not raise a critical mass of objections from their benefactors in the United States.
Not only the resentment but Israel actually helped their worst elements gain power in order to cause an inner conflict within the Palestinians. They supported Hamas's growth to cause a fissure between them and the PLO.
Almost every statement you just made is demonstrably false.
This isn't that profound an observation, because the same sentiment works in reverse from the point of view of Palestine. There's no way that they can appease Israeli revanchism. That's why the situation is so intractable.
This is a ridiculous straw man.
Look up how many civilians were killed on both sides since the beginning of this clusterfuck.
You know as well as I do that if Hamas was successful every time it tried to murder an Israeli, those death tolls would be much much closer.
Are you saying that if Israel let more of its civilians die, it would be less morally culpable?
I cannot imagine success as killing someone. Also, you are speculating on what might happen with people's lives.
IMHO civilians dying in any circumstances is dumb af. This includes them directly dying as a result of war and indirectly dying as a result of economic and political maneuvers, blocades, shitty things.
My point is that there is a difference between attacking a building that is shooting rockets at your civilians and slaughtering 200 civilians at a festival, taking 130 hostages, raping women and parading their naked bodies through the streets, and decapitating people.
Israel is not in any sense perfect, but it least attempts to minimize civilian casualties. The IDF is not roaming through the West Bank murdering every Palestinian it sees, whereas that's exactly what Hamas was doing two days ago.
We are mostly saying the same thing. There is a reason why what happened happened and as far as I am concerned both sides are terrorists. Is raping women any worse than imposing a blocade that literally equals people fucking starving to death? Yes, it's shocking. Genocide is genocide no mater how you slice it.
Nobody is saying that 100% of the Palestinians would then make peace by doing that. But doing so would rob Hamas of all its popularity. Palestinians turned to it because they had no other choice; Abbas was doing nothing to stop the slaughter of Palestinians and asking the world for help got nowhere. Conversely, if all attacks by Palestinians stopped for good then most of the Israeli rightwing would be abandoned by the Israeli public. These two groups are not as different as you think.
Palestinians are the only ones who can end this conflict. It's been half a century, and they have never once been willing to accept a solution that didn't include "Right of Return"... a mechanism by which they would overwhelmingly claim voting rights in Israel, and essentially vote Israel into an anti-Jewish Muslim theocracy.
Israel won't agree to any peace deal that would see it voted out of existence.
Israel is also able to thrive even under the threat of terrorism.
They can wait forever.
The ball is in the Palestinians's court.
This conflict will be over the day they say to themselves, "hey gang... Uh, I don't think we're going to get our land back. And I'm tired of living in poverty. Let's take the shit peace deal and get some land and autonomy, and look forward instead of backward.
There's no other way this ends. Anything else is a fantasy.
And I've never seen the anti-Israel crowd come up with a single coherent rebuttal to this.
The whole fact that you see the wrongdoings of only one of the sides in this conflict speaks volumes.
Sorry but you too are a product of your state media propaganda. Just from the other side of the barricade. And sorry to disappoint you but that doesn't make you morally superior.
I see wrongs on both sides. But I also see that Israel has a history of trying to make peace, and of making piece with their other neighbors.
All I've ever seen from Palestinians is terrorism and rejecting peace deals.
Your view on the peace process is disturbingly simplistic and inaccurate. There were attempts on both sides and both sides failed to reach a compromise but saying that all the fault lay with one of the sides comes to prove that you fail to see the issue with all its nuances.
Oh really. Name one time in history that the Palestinians agreed to a peace deal that wouldn't have left Israel with indefensible borders or a "right of return" which would allow Palestinians to essentially vote in overwhelming numbers to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy?
Ah yes, why shall we grant them voting rights, it is so much better to create a humanitarian crisis, endlessly increase the buffer zones and the restrictions on the Palestinians, depriving them from food, clean water, fuel, expel them from their homes, create even more illegal settlements and then act surprised when they revolt.
Why should we care for civilian lives on the other side of the fence. /s
Right?
Correct. Giving Palestinians the ability to vote Israel out of existence, and turn it into a Jew-hating Muslim theocracy is absolutely the worse option of those two.
Peace cannot begin and end with asking Jews to opt in to suicide.
You conveniently forget that your population is a lot higher than that of the Palestinians and even if all the Palestinians come to Israel it won't happen. So your solution to the problem is to keep Palestinians still in this open air prison, oppress them economically, and with resources, severely restrict their freedom rights, expel them from their homes, etc. Here we are not talking about a small group of people, but a couple of millions.
Current events displaced already 123.000 people, same people are currently sheltering in schools, etc. Soon the whole population of Palestine won't have access to fresh water, electricity, fuel. You cannot even comprehend the extent of this. Have you ever tried to put in the shoes of the people who are living behind that fence. No. Because you simply don't care. Do you truly believe that all of those people are complicit and deserve this suffering. If you are subject to such oppression what would you seriously do?
So tell me now how are you any different from the people who are celebrating on the streets the civilian casualties?
And can you please remind me what exactly you have learned from history, your own history, not too long ago. Do you truly believe long term oppression is the solution and a recipe for peace?
You're not considering the population growth rate in Gaza is considerably higher than in Israel.
The demographic shift would have a massive impact on Israeli democracy, even if a complete theocracy was not immediately on the table.
For comparison, imagine what would happen to any swing state if you introduced 20 percent of voters from deep red Alabama.
How long until books are banned?
My solution to the problem is a two-state solution where Palestinians take whatever Israel is willing to offer at this point.
Palestinians have ZERO leverage in this situation. They lost. The lost decades upon decades ago.
If they loved their children more than they hate the Jews, they would cut their losses and rebuild.
It really is exactly that simple. Because Israel will never budge, and they are getting better and better at defense themselves over time.
Economically, Israel is thriving. They can wait forever. That's the political reality.
And if you think the answer is pulling international support from Israel, consider that China or some other world power would love to have a foothold in that region, and Israel will have have no problem finding other allies if we want to give up access to intelligence in that region.
The two state solution isn't workable, because Israel will never allow a viable Palestinian state. The only three options are
All three options have downsides, but in my view the third choice is the only one that's sustainable in the long run and not morally monstrous. But I have no confidence at all that that's the pathway that will be chosen.
What, pray you, is the nuanced downside to genocide?
Edit: lol I forgot the /s didn't think it was necessary. Your wording was funny to say there's a downside to all 3 like genocide is even an option
Nobody left to feed the cats
Bad press. Gotta worry about stray kids getting all angry and coming at you years later. It’s a lot of work. But, they learned from ze Germans
Guaranteed the Israeli govt talks about it as a viable option, the blasé attitude of their soldiers when it comes to shooting children or anyone not Israeli is an example. They’re just as bad as the saudis, our money lets them have carte blanche for whatever the fuck they want to do
No more Palestinian food. /s
I'm not promoting genocide. That's definitely a downside lol
People die.
Looks like the author is suffering from amnesia.
Always so interesting when these things happen, every internet commenter is an expert on any complex situation.