S.F. bakery won't serve cops, police union claims. Store says it's about the guns, not the cops
latimes.com
San Francisco’s police union says a city bakery chain has a “bigoted” policy of not serving uniformed cops.
The San Francisco Police Officers Assn. wrote in a social media post last week that Reem’s California “will not serve anyone armed and in uniform” and that includes “members of the U.S. Military.” The union is demanding that the chain “own” its policy.
Reem’s says, however, its policy isn’t against serving armed police officers. It’s against allowing guns inside its businesses.
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Bring on the down votes but my opinion is this will only make things worse. I think people should judge the police on a officer to officer basis. I work in public service and the majority of cops are really decent people who are trying to help. There are always bad seeds. Even if a cop is on a power trip if you ask them they will help you.
In my opinion the biggest problem w the police isn’t the officers it’s the training and culture. They have their hands tied w ridiculous use of force policies and almost no training. But bring on the hate and call me a fascist.
Edit: biblical service to public service. Jesus has no place in these streets.
It's hard for me to judge them individually cop to cop because literally EVERY.SINGLE.ENCOUNTER I have EVER had with a cop has been a negative experience at best. Every single one. I'm not going to hate on you or call you fascist. Just pointing out it's like saying I've never met THIS wasp before, maybe I shouldn't judge it unless it stings me! Then surprise motherfucker you got stung, whodathunkit.
Fucking bullshit, sorry but not sorry, but you're delusional man. And I'm a 40yo professional white guy in the suburbs! My god, I can't even imagine being black from the hood.
Watch some Police Audit videos. About one out of 10, a cop does something spectacularly good (or at least not horrible). Once, they even arrested another cop on the scene because the other cop crossed from "merely bullying" to outright criminal behavior.
The other 9 out of 10 are disgusting and disappointing. So your view of them sure isn't far off reality.
Too little too late.
Not everyone lives in the US. I've been working with coppers my whole adult life and have had one bad experience. They're good people.
Unless you think every cop is a nazi then you get downvoted to hell… feels like old Reddit… good to be home.
From one white suburban 40 year old to another I understand what you’re saying and as I said before I have met plenty of wasps. I guess what I am trying to get across is that blanket hate for cops isn’t the answer. It’s a very hard job that they are not trained to do and it does attract assholes. But every encounter I have with a cop I start out just being friendly and the majority of the time they are friendly back. Also well aware of my white 6’2” privilege when dealing with them.
Sounds like survivorship bias.
Hard to really have a conversation about it when this is how it goes every time.
White suburban 40 year old that works public service in mixed cities with large populations of poor black white and Latino communities so I don’t live in a bubble. Most cops I work alongside seem to treat decent people decently. Again there have been some bad apples but it’s a work in progress.
Finish that phrase. Here, I'll start it for you "A few bad apples ruin...". Any time someone uses the phrase "a few bad apples" and then can't point to where those bad apples have been purged with extreme prejudice, they're just illustrating how broken things are and why police need to be abolished and replaced in-mass with a new police force that's designed for actually helping people with proper checks in place to permanently and aggressively deal with those that abuse their positions.
The tradeoff for police getting special powers should be that when they use those powers to violate peoples rights, the weight of the law should come down on them like a ton of bricks. If a cop commits a crime, they should have a MINIMUM of 10 times the sentence a non-cop would get. Cop assaults someone and that's normally 6 months in jail? Cop should get 5 years in jail. Cop murders someone and normally you'd get 5 years? Cop gets 50 years. If there were extremely harsh punishments cops would be a hell of a lot less likely to abuse their positions. You also need to fix the incestuous relationship between police and prosecutors. There should be an independent department purely dedicated to arresting and prosecuting police for crimes.
I like the idea of a new police force but what you are describing sounds like inanity. You had me until you make the punishments 10x the crime. What happens when someone make a honest mistake? Because they had a off day their lives are ruined. Even in this fantasy where the constitution no longer exists who would sign up for that job? You will have to pay $500k a year and have genius lawyer monks doing the job.
If I have an off day at work, someone gets the wrong email. If a cop has an off day at work, someone's dad gets killed. Do you not believe LEOs should be held to a higher standard of accountability? Anyone given the power to kill on behalf of the state should be held to a higher standard than the general population.
Even if I did believe that was a good thing it’s against the constitution to have 2 separate punishments. That said I think cops who fuck up should be tried in court like any other citizen. If you want change go apply to a department.
If you actually think police will change their ways of their own volition you're truly living in a different reality. Change will come to law enforcement from the outside, not from within; they're too entrenched in their avenues of power and abuse to have any interest in legitimate reform.
That's the risk you take on when you're given powers nobody else in our society has. Police can literally kill people on purpose, something that nobody else is allowed to do. Police can imprison or detain people, once again something nobody else is allowed to do. Police can take your property, once again, something nobody else can do. They can invade your privacy, and even though there are some checks on that power they're extremely limited. Every time an officer decides to exercise their powers to violate someones rights, whether they're justified in doing it or not, should be a weighty decision that comes with heavy consequences if they choose wrong. If a cop is worried about being punished he could always take the safe approach of you know, just not violating someones rights. You'd see a hell of a lot fewer instances of cops immediately going for their gun as their first last and final solution to literally all problems if getting that wrong actually had dire consequences for them instead of just some annoying paperwork and having to sit through interviews.
I think you've misunderstood what I meant. You are a white, suburban 40 year old. Your demographic does not get targeted with police brutality, so it's no surprise that cops treat you well. It's a form of bias called survivorship bias.
No I understood what you said and I agree with you. I am aware that I get treated differently. However I have noticed that a lot of the younger cops that I see interact with minority populations much better than older “salty” cops and they gives me hope. There are real assholes too, my hope is things get better. Because I see the cops treat scumbag white people the same way they treat scumbag black people.
You need to talk to some other people about their experiences with cops. I look like you, but i'm autistic, so I can't act like you. Police constantly think i'm lying/hiding something/acting guilty because they're taught to interpret the way I interact because of a developmental disorder as criminal behavior. Then, if they push us into a meltdown by intimidating the hell out of us, because they assume we're criminals, we get beaten and arrested or shot.
You seriously need to think more about how your position in life and outward appearance actually affects the way the world interacts with you. Things aren't just harder for some people. They're completely different, and these institutions are supposed to exist for all of us. f you understood what it was like to interact with the police as an autistic man or a black man, you would not be defending the police.
That sucks man and I hate that that happens to you. I am not beating my chest for every cop but not all are animals and until people stop being awful to each other they are needed. I try to de escalate every scene I am on when I feel the cops are being assholes. Their job is almost impossible and unfortunately it attracts douche bags but also there are some great cops.
Unless and until they start following section 1983 of the federal code, as was written and passed by Congress not as was illegally revised in 1874 by one person that had no authority to do so, they are all criminals and deserve nothing but scorn.
This only applies to the thugs with badges in the US. It may not apply to your utopian police department.
So you won’t call them if someone steals your car or assaults you?
Hell no, that's only going to make things worse. First police won't do anything if something is stolen, so that's just wasting your time. As for assaulting you, there's a good chance that's going to end up with the cop beating you up instead. You're better off asking for help from some random passer by, there's a better chance they'll actually help. If my house is on fire I'll call the fire department. If I'm having a medical emergency I'll call an ambulance. If crime of some kind is happening you deal with it yourself because the cops will either do nothing or make it worse.
Yes seriously, only thing cops are good for is the paper trail for insurance. Call them while you're being assaulted and they'll probably just join in the fray.
You know every time I've had something stolen and filed a police report I have not even once had my stolen shit returned. They don't even call back after weeks to say "hey we didn't care enough to follow any leads, good luck".
And yet they take every fucking chance they can to write my as many moving violations as possible, whether or not they apply.
The police don't serve the people, never have.
That’s on the system not the individual officer.
Fuck the officer for going along with it. They can quit and find a different job that doesn't make them out to be a piece of shit like the rest of us. Nobody forces them to become a cop, but by choosing to become one, they've branded themselves as part of that fucked up system. That's on them. ACAB
Cool let’s not have cops
Considering studies show dollar-for-dollar we can effectively do what good police do by putting their budget money in other services (mental health, welfare, etc), I'm ok with having a LOT fewer cops with a lot more limited mandate.
So this way not only will petty crimes not get solved but the bigger crimes will also go unsolved.
Honestly, I'm not super married to the idea of "solving" crimes. I would rather prevent 1 crime than solve 2. The idea that solving crimes is more important than preventing them only works for the punitive model of justice, one that I do not ascribe to.
If we could cut the crime rate 90%, but the people who committed crimes went free, I'd still strongly consider it.
That's despite the fact I don't agree that big crimes wouldn't get solved. Of over 650,000 police officers, only 10,000 are detectives, who are trained and tasked with solving crimes. That's a LOT of cops that solve crimes for a living at all. They "keep peace". Sometimes you DO need a cop to keep peace, when the most important thing is the presence of mitigating force. The rest of the time, a social worker is more effective.
What do you do for work, and how much time do you spend in depressed areas? I have seen babies shaken to death mothers cutting their wrists while their children are in the next room, people placing gasoline bombs in banks around town, a guy set his ex wife’s house on fire with her in it, a guy shot in the stomach for the cash in his register, a pregnant woman stabbed in the belly 9 times by a stalker abd Countless other awful things and for these reasons I am glad cops are working. Obviously there are douche bags. But the real world is really hard and at times evil. So without police and the idea of punishment I think it would be chaotic. There has to be a better way to deliver public safety and I am on board with it but for now it’s better than nothing.
I grew up adjacent to two cities with some of the highest crime rates in the US. The one that went easier on the cops and heavier on local programs and improvements had its crime rate plummet. The one that doubled-down on policing still has a gang problem (and drug OD problem) today. The former had the higher crime rate, including a street that hit the top 10 deadliest streets in the country.
As for what I do, immaterial. But I live with emergency workers, and they are saints who put their lives at risk every day. They also don't like cops, but are afraid to say it because cops can fuck up their lives. Yes, sometimes they need cops for the direct prevention of a violent situation (see my point below), but as often the cops get in their way. They are required to obey a lawful order even when they're doing their job, and sometimes that costs a patient's life. Very often, accountability on that is more politics than justice.
How many of those didn't happen because of the cops' presence? The math (see below) says zero of them. If you could be confident that 50% defunding police and replacing them with social programs would cut the rate of those things substantially, what would your opinion be? More crime and more thugs to punish it, or less crime?
I'd like to take note that everything you said in your last reply might be appropriate if I were some punk kid saying "let's get rid of all the cops in the world" or somesuch. I'm saying let's stop funding them beyond their need and stop trusting them to do the things they are not qualified for. Of all the horrible things you've seen, police still cause more deaths than they prevent, committing 5% of homicides themselves... while police budget and saturation does not have any detectable correlation to homicide figures. That means, $1 spent on policing causes a net increase to homicide rates.
Again, that's NOT saying those figures would stay the same if we cut 90% or 95% or 100% of police funding, but they sure as hell would if we cut 30% or 40%, and if we reallocated that into programs that DO solve those problems? We have those programs. They're just underfunded by people who don't think we deserve free mental healthcare, free food, etc. EVERY $1 that goes into welfare does more to cut crimes than $1 into police.
Never in my above posts did I say the police are perfect and nothing needs to change I too have had dealings with some real shit police. Even if you cut the budget in half you are going to have a really hard time funding and finding people like social workers that want to do that job at 3am. I am all for it though if it’s possible. I am getting crushed because I said not all cops are monsters I definitely think the system needs to change.
I'm not sure you know what you're arguing. You seemed to get really defensive when I said we should reduce the police. So I explained why it is smart to reduce the police.
It's a knee-jerk reaction for people who have experienced criminal behavior to want more police and harsher sentencing. Often times it helps to shake them out of it to discuss efficacy. To ask "what if more police and harsher sentencing doesn't work, or has the opposite effect?" Ultimately, you seem to want the same thing as me - less crime, less violent crime. So why not support things that are more likely to work over things that are less likely to work?
You're not going to have a hard time finding/training social workers, and they tend to make less than half of what police officers do in most states. They actually spiked really high unemployment rates a few times, and the low demand and low wages of social work is the only thing keeping people from pivoting to that field. You are right about one thing. Social workers are actually required to be properly trained, unlike police (who often don't even know the law they're supposedly enforcing). But I guarantee if the funding showed up, the workers would as well.
There is a part 2 to that of course. There are a lot of people who would more readily spend $1b in police than $1m in social work because "poor people don't deserve anything for free". But you talked like you care about violent crimes not happening, and you aren't getting that by maintaining the current huge police spend.
I don't like the term "crushed". I expanded upon you saying "Cool let’s not have cops" with pointing out the value of changing from a police-oriented society to a solution-oriented society. Your points were:
With fewer police, crime will go unsolved, to which I pointed out that only a tiny percent of police are tasked with solving crimes and pointing out that "solving crimes" means we failed to prevent those crimes from happening
That you've seen horrible things, therefore we need to support police. To which I tried to dismantle that and show you that the police did not, and do not, prevent those horrible things from happening, including referencing (without citation I'm afraid. I was tired/lazy) studies that showed reduction in police funding does not actually increase crime rates.
I'm sure other people are giving you more harsh replies, but I'm sticking to just the facts of the situation. In most (but not all) situations, the need for police represents failure by society to do something, something they could have done cheaper without the police. The #1 such failure is insufficient welfare and safety nets, that benefit far more per-dollar to reduce crime than police ever will.
A small "response" crew dealing with volitile situations like a domestic disturbance being escalated beyond the scope of a social worker, and a smaller "combat" crew dealing with things like hostage situations and ultra-high-risk situations... that's mostly all the police need/do that could effectively protect us. Hell, you don't even need a guy with a gun to handle most common infractions like DUIs.
I’m not sure you know what I am arguing I never said I want more police or harsher sentences this is arguing in a vacuum all I said in most of these replies was it’s counter productive to not allow police in your restaurant.
I am a huge advocate for social programs and I think it’s criminal that they are the first to go when the budget gets tight. I would love to see more social workers on scene but you are still going to want a cop there if the person get violent.
As for the police budget I would love to see it spent on useful training instead of tanks for barricaded suspects that never gets used.
Those cops making more than social workers are doing that with overtime on road jobs or filling vacant shifts. Any cop or firefighter making $150k a year is living at work.
I am sure not in a comment section this conversation would go a lot smoother.
Now you're getting it
Your inability to see your selection bias and account for it (while claiming to do just that) is beyond staggering.
Like... you're saying the words, but then your overall takeaway proves that despite what you're saying, you have no concept of reality beyond your own lived experience and world view.
I'm not in the ACAB/Defund camp either by any means, but you should either learn to truly acknowledge your bias (and not just pay it lip service), or just fucking own it and stop pretending to have a nuanced and enlightened opinion.
Like...don't try to make yourself sound like you're speaking from any sort of well reasoned position that accounts for the limitations of personal experience and acknowledges the experience of others. Just say, "Hey, the vast majority of cops I've interacted with, I've had no problem with. Therefore I think most cops everywhere are decent people and the tiny fraction that aren't are just an unfortunate and unavoidable, but ultimately acceptable exception that is worth it in exchange for the services police forces as a whole provide for society."
Because that's literally what you're saying.
You're a white guy working and interacting with these cops in a religiously charged setting that already puts you in familiar and friendly territory with them in terms of ideology, race, and gender. These are three huge factors that are all coloring the interaction, and given the closely intertwined threads of American right wing politics with police, religion, race, and gender, every single interaction you've had with them benefits from being on their side in all the major categories that matter. With that frame of reference, you cannot possibly (at least while maintaining intellectual honesty) use your own personal experience as being at all broadly representative of that of the average person in the general public.
It's like showing up to game day in the home team's city wearing the home team's colors and singing the home team's fight song...and then the next day when you see a story about how many of those fans you met were harassing and assaulting fans of the other team, your response is, "Well I interacted with dozens of those fans and they were all really nice to me. Since I have real experience with them, that proves that they're nice people who would never do those bad things. Must have just been 1% of bad apples. But overall, there's no problem with bad fans since they were all nice to me."
I was with you until about here. I've seen cops shoo away people in need rather than even deign to give directions. I would say the majority I've seen have been very unhelpful and the encounters that have been nice or cordial have been the extreme minority. It's like their default is power trip mode.
Correct.
Yea I was too broad there when I said that However in my own experience I have seen even SOME -asshole cops be helpful.
I think that part of the problem with your response, not just biblical vs public service, is that it is a bias based on your own experience.
Like the rest of us, the police are overworked, and it is reasonable to expect that they feel pressure to act and do, not to take time to reason and consider. For an office worker, they might get angry and have a short fuse. For an officer, that might have dire consequences.
What purpose do the police serve? In my youth, they helped get baby kittens down from trees. The officer with the glowing smile would hand the kitten to the little girl who needed help. The highly legible and large typeface said "Cop gave cat." Factual and warming.
This isn't the interaction I usually have and it isn't the interaction I've heard others have. Was Timmy and Suzy's Big Day wrong? Consider the difference between The Andy Griffith Show and Dragnet. It's a big difference when you know the people you are there to "Protect and Serve," but reality is considerably different for most.
On the other side of things, you have folks that have been underprivileged from the crib. Social pressures indirectly, if not sometimes directly, perpetuate their plight. It instills anger and a general distrust.
Now mix those groups together.
Grouped by association is going to be the outcome unless people recognize their biases and actively try to work outside that. It means recognizing how your experience might not be shared amongst others. That's all anyone is asking.
Yea man I typoed biblical it was supposed to be just public service I don’t believe in god or the Bible.
How many of the "good cops" turn in the bad cops? Oh none you say..... Well you might want to do a recount of good cops then.
Y'all remember when NYPD in its entirety said that old man fell during those protests a few years back?
Then videos got released.
Judging cops on a department by department basis saves paper ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When did I say none?
That's sorta the point that people generally have issues with cops dude. It's the overall culture of shielding of each other from consequences, stoking a "everyone is your enemy"/warrior mentality among officers, bad or lack of training leading to unneeded violent escalation etc.
It's been police departments dragging their heels and throwing tantrums on addressing these issues that have what caused people's dislike of them to grow.
I'll throw my support behind cops who are standing up to the bullshit.
But they are usually fired (or worse), which means the people I'm supporting... aren't cops anymore
Yea I have been saying that the entire time and getting downvoted to hell. My opinion is one of the big problems are cops don’t think of themselves as part of the community so by kicking them out of restaurants will only make them feel like less of a part of the community. I am done responding to these comments everyone seems to be a expert lawyer and city planner that has extensive experience dealing w the public.
I would say they don't feel part of the community because they are the enforcement behind alienation under capitalism. If everyone has housing, security, fair trials, etc then people wouldn't perceive them as part of an alienating force.
A good officer will have no problem respecting a bakery's no-firearms policy.
It's fine to have a different opinion and you shouldn't be downvoted. If you've had that experience of them it's perfectly valid. There's just a lot of cops who are secret white supremacists who get outed routinely and that's genuinely scary. Cops should get a lot more education than they do in the US.
I 100% agree I have met and delt with so many really shitty cops in my own time. Then factor in the 1% that are real monsters and I understand the way people feel. I train Jiu Jitsu with some amazing cops that are really trying to be better for their community and themselves. I am just defensive after reading all the comments.
https://sites.temple.edu/klugman/2020/07/20/do-40-of-police-families-experience-domestic-violence/
Again preaching to the choir over worked and riddled w PTSD obviously the result is domestic violence and other unsafe behaviors. I mean the 1% monsters like this fellow. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44402948
It's only 1% when you ignore the domestic violence.
1% monsters like Jenkins 40% that beat their families can and should fuck themselves. I am referring to the corruption and actively destroying the communities they work in not just home life.
"It's only 1% because I'm very specifically framing my world view in a way that I feel justified in cropping domestic abusers out of the picture of bad actors."
I am not saying 99% are upstanding the 40% that abuse their families are monster. I am saying the 1% that are corrupt at work and using their power for personal gains.
Even if only 1% of cops fall into that category, the percentage of cops that support and enable that behavior is much larger. Police unions routinely defend and endorse bad actors, and reinforce and propagate toxic warrior cop culture. The whole damn tree is infected, and needs serious reform. Unless and until that happens, ACAB is the best rule of thumb.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt because if you don't they will punish you isn't really giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is a backhanded acknowledgement that if they are not collectively appeased and given unwarranted grace, they will behave badly.
That's not an argument that they're not bullies, it sounds like an acknowledgement that they're bullies and it would be better to appease them