China's new national map has set off a wave of protests. Why?
China has upset many countries in the Asia-Pacific region with its release of a new official map that lays claim to most of the South China Sea, as well as to contested parts of India and Russia, and official objections continue to mount. What is the map, and why is it upsetting people so much?
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It seems significant, then, that Beijing chose to release the map on the heels of a late August meeting of the BRICS nations — Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa -- and just before China is to participate in top-level meetings of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and the Group of 20 rich and developing nations.
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In releasing the map now, Beijing is widely seen as signaling it has no intention of backing down on any of its claims and is making sure that its positions are fresh in the minds of other countries in the region.
They’re just doing what America has been doing since WW2. Why should America be the only power in the world?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Yes. This could be considered a whataboutism. But that’s not always a bad thing. See here. Context matters. This article puts China in a negative light. I’m not defending China’s actions. I think it is inflammatory. But I also felt obligated to relay the hypocrisy of America.
Yeah well for one: China and America are NOT the same. The USA has a lot of flaws and fucks up a lot but I'd have then a hundred times over China.
The USA at least has the possibility of remaining a democracy. China is an authoritarian vicious dictatorship that kills or jails dissidents, the same as Russia does.
Exactly my point. The US has many flaws but I'm not so dumb as to say that it should go be replaced by china or Russia.
I’m sure some of those people would say China has a lot of flaws and fucks up a lot but I’d have them a hundred times over America.
Stop being egocentric.
So what you're saying is that you're fine with a dictatorship? You're fine with millions of people being rounded up, tortured, and killed? You're okay with genocide? You're okay with mass censorship and mass surveillance?
Say yes. Because if you say no you'd go against your previous reply.
I mean I don't agree with them but they could easily really with: "You're fine with restricting women's rights? You're fine with a country controlled by corporations? You're fine with police summarily killing people in the streets? You're fine with a media that intentionally lies to manipulate parts of the population into attempting a coup? You're fine with a small ghetto of inflected officials making arbitrary decisions on laws that take away fundamental rights based purely on religious and political ideology?"
A better argument would be to point to statistical data that shows that the US is still a better place to live than China. e.g. the US scores a 8.73 ^1 on the Freedom indeed while China only scored a 5.57 ^1.
Or direct to each country's amnesty report. ^2 ^3
^1 https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country
^2 https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/east-asia/china/
^3 https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/north-america/united-states-of-america/
Begging the question. I wouldn’t mind a benevolent dictatorship. As for the other presuppositions, I live in America, so yes.
I'll assume you're 15 years old since you keep looking up the definitions of words and expressions and I guess that does explain your stance.
Of course everyone would love to live in a "benevolent" dictatorship that always does exactly what I want and never does anything bad...
You met even dream about one day being lucky enough to live like that, but it's yoo bad that those don't exist. Dictatorships exist for the benefit of a very select few, of which you are not a part. As long as you follow in line all is fine, but step out of line, or happen to stand in the way, and you're fucked. If a new rule is pushed down that you don't like? Well too bad because fuck you, you're living in a dictatorship now.
If you happen to be part of the group that is ethically or politically or religiously or culturally different, then you will soy be arrested and tortured because fuck you, you live in a dictatorship.
The only reason why the common populace gets anything nice is to avoid them rebelling against you. They'll get just enough to not rebel, the testis for you and your first line buddies that protect you.
This is how life is in ALL dictatorships and if you're dumb enough not to understand or believe this then please, by all means, move to China. Move to Russia. When there, raise your voice and then we'll talk.
Oh wait, we won't, because you'll have disappeared
Hope you feel better soon. I continue to struggle with anger issues. What helps me is focusing on my breathing and reminding myself that I control my emotions, they don’t control me. Then I dissociate and try to objectively understand what is making me angry. Are you angry with me because I don’t view the world as you do? Or, because I’m challenging beliefs you’ve long held? Realize that not everyone has to believe the same, but a consensus reality, or basic truths, are necessary.
So in other words, you know you're wrong but have no good reply do you'll just feign a smile with some petty insults.
Makes for a good conversation.
More reason to assume you're a teenager with little experience and knowledge of the world, yet thinking you know everything
I did not mean for you to feel insulted. You just seemed unnecessarily angry. I don’t even think I have the capacity to know everything. But I do enjoy learning and encountering different perspectives.
Uh huh, comments like that really show that. Grow up
I’ll have to wait for the next life to do that. That time has passed.
Sure but where would they prefer to live? Where do their kids live?
They prefer to live where they prefer to live. 1,425,587,668 people. 1,000,000,000 more people than the US. You’re deluding yourself if you think they are all prisoners.
Oh no, they're not ALL prisoners. The Han Chinese especially. Maybe you should ask the Uyghurs what they think about the Chinese government? I mean, I'd tell you to ask them, but you really can't now, as you very well know.
Also reminds me of this interview with a Dutch doctor who was brought to china as a transplant specialist. When there he asked about the source of the transplant he was told that the prisoner would be executed soon. He left without performing the transplant, which is good.
You presume that I defend China, I do not. Just because America genocided Native Americans, and carried out extrajudicial executions in Vietnam and Iwo Jima, doesn’t mean that they are evil. The same metric should be applied to China. Maybe both countries are bad. Don’t limit your understanding. I’m rooting for you.
You talk about two VERY different things here.
One is attrocities committed by the military, which are horrible, should not happen, and those responsible should be punished. Also some of these attrocities you mention are over 200 years ago...
The other is (current) governments and government policies.
China is a dictatorship. America is a (very falwed and at this point maybe even a failed, but still hanging on) democracy. Do I really need to spell out the practical differences here?
They are NOT the same.
If I were in China right now, just for writing this part above, I'd likely be jailed, and likely somewhat tortured just for good measure.
The USA has a host of issues, but at least it isn't government policy to jail and torture it's own citizens for whatever reason they deem fit.
You cannot be that naive not to understand that these are not the same.
They are not the same, but comparable. China hasn’t invaded a country since Vietnam. America unjustifiably invaded Iraq in 2003. My goal is not to defend China, but to make people aware that America isn’t the arbiter of justice in the world. Both countries are using propaganda to demonize the other. You don’t have to pick a side.
You're doing a poor job of it though... What your doing is going on posts that have nothing to do about America and saying "yeah, but America is bad". Most people here are aware that america does a lot of bad things. But denying that China is magnitude worse for its citizens isn't "not to defend China".
You sound like a China apologist more than anything. You convince nobody by doing that.
I don’t defend China at all. They are imperialist just like America. But I tire of the hate for China propagated by western media to justify war.
How do you know that China is magnitudes worse for its citizens?Everything you believe you know about China is filtered through the lens of western media. I don’t apologize for any nation. I don’t think nations should even exist. We are all humans. Try not to forget that. If I’m doing a poor job of it and not convincing anyone, why did you feel the need to reply?
You present western media as a single monoblock. It isn't. Even a single media is not a single coherent unit. Every journalist has his/her own voice since, contrary to China, we don't lock people up for voicing their opinion. Everyone can do investigative journalism. There are correspondants in most countries, when information comes up, it is verified as much as possible with people living there. When we talk about investigative journalism, the information is verified and usually corroborated by the other independent medias. If a media realize that the government propaganda doesn't match with reality, they can publish the story without retaliation. Not only that, but they would have quite the story and they will be quite happy to publish it.
You seem unfamiliar with all this, do you have free press where you live?
Equating Western propaganda (and yes it exists) with Chinese authoritarian state is precisely a China apologist attitude.
I replied because I wanted to. The fact that I replied doesn't have anything to do with your ability to convince people.
No.
Again, no.
These countries cannot be compared, they're not even in the same category.
I'm not trying to tell you that the US is awesome, it isn't. But comparing it to China is disingenuous at best and just plain ignorant.
Tianmen square? Uyghurs? Hongkong?
The US indeed invaded Iraq based on lies and just for money grabs, it has a moment problem and it has a lot of bad actors in the government that van push it to do bad things.
China is a defacto dictatorship that commits genocide as a state policy. It downright murdered thousands of innocent students because they protested. That sort of shit would never fly in the US. Prisoners are executed for their organs, one amongst other sources on that was the testimony of a Dutch doctor going there to help with a transplant.
The US is badly flawed and recently got quite a bit worse and I worry for it. However, it's an enormous far cry from China, don't compare appels to torture.
Why do you feel the need to pick one over the other? Depending on what you value, one might be better than the other. But they can both be bad in different ways. You’re convincing yourself that they’re mutually exclusive, when it’s really a false dichotomy. They can both be bad, and we, as a civilization should seek to do better than either has to offer.
You seem to have made a choice by trying to inject America bad arguments into a discussion that had nothing to do with America. So I ask you, why are YOU okay with China's wrongdoing instead of criticising every country that does something bad?
I was the first comment! Sort by old. It’s a map, not the holocaust.
I guess you didnt see all those videos during covid when people had their front doors nailed shut by the government so they couldn't leave, or the travel bans between cities. Or maybe your definition is different from mine or maybe the citizens prefered being dragged to a covid facility because someone in their household tested positive.
China’s zero COVID policy saved lives. source So, unless you love death, that’s not a good argument. In fact, I wish America had been more disciplined during the pandemic, which is not over. But the wheels of the economy must turn.
China is definitely more disciplined. Like when that Chinese doctor first discovered covid he was disciplined by the Chinese government, the coverup might have worked if covid was less dangerous but it was allowed to spread throughout Wuhan. When the world suspected something was wrong and wanted to close their border with China the CCP called it a over reaction. As things got worse the CCP finally admitted their was a problem and decided to stop travel out of Wuhan but gave everyone 24 hours notice, by than tens of thousands were able to flee to other parts of China and the world. blah blah blah and finally the step where other countries could have done something to stop the spread of covid happens. Yes, the USA should have been more disciplined and they could have been more effective at slowing down covid but by that point China had made it impossible to stop covid. None of this was the Chinese covid policy, just general cover your butt policy. Since China was so proud it created sinovac the CCP could not admit mRNA vaccine was more effective, how many more lives could have been saved if Chinese policy could admit to making mistakes? Sure, a high number of people in the west died doing stupid things like taking horse deworming medicine to fight a virus, but it was their choice. Unlike all the other people who took the necessary precautions and still died or the countless people in China who died from covid or they starved to death because they couldn't get food - countless because the CCP covered up the number of cases and deaths. Check the WHO website for worldwide covid deaths. USA had 100 million confirmed cases (probably too low) and 1 million deaths (too low). China has four times the population but also has 100 million cases and only 120 thousand deaths. You are right, the CCP hates death - that's why their made up number is so laughably low. If we assume deaths are 1% of cases than China deaths are 8 times less than what they should be. BTW my parents would agree with you 100%, my mom watches countless mainland media and my dad has dementia and even they would never want to live in China.
Sorry your dad has dementia. Enjoy the moments you have with him.
Heh? I would think you're commenting on the wrong message but you quoted me so... What are you trying to say?
The Chinese feel the same about America as you feel about China.
Most Chinese feel exactly what they are told to feel by the government. That is not acceptable in my book.
edit: deleted as I realized I was defending China and I don't want to do that. There are a great deal of massively problematic issues with their government which the comments here brought back to the front of my mind and I don't want to get into an argument where I'm defending Whinnie the Pooh's government.
You are proof that Americans are not that different, in that regard.
I'm not american, nor do I live there.
European? You’re still bombarded with American propaganda. We all are, they have cultural hegemony.
You should learn about something called free press and specifically the consequences on the societies that have that compared to others. It doesn't immunize a population against propaganda, but its effects are much more tame. Also free press also means that you can have main stream media that goes against the government's narrative. This is just not possible everywhere.
Of course we are bombarded by American culture, but science and investigative journalism still exists and where I live, we don't lock people up for having "bad" beliefs or for simply investigating and sharing ideas.
Does the US actively commit genocide? Do they keep one particular part of their population in work and concentration camps?
Do they suppress every opinion you have? Do they arrest you for those opinions?
Get the fuck out of here with your whataboutism. Living under China, if you are not chinese is a death sentence, you might just live in nazi germany as a non german. I'd much rather be under the US.
I meaaaannnn
Elaborate.
You lived in China? Tell us about your experience.
I've seen enough perspectives of people who did live in China and seen enough people (even some of my friends) disappear to make a judgement.
If you want to such Xi cock so hard, please shut the fuck up and move there, tankie scum
Forgive me if I don’t trust your anecdotal evidence. You’ve had friends disappear? Insult’s won’t help me to see your perspective. I am not, nor will I ever be, a tankie. I choose not to have a narrow minded view of the world.
"America bad" is not wrong, but not open-minded.
And it doesn't count as a real personality trait either.
I’m American. I live there. I’ve studied it’s history and lived it. I’m allowed to have views of my own country. Americans aren’t bad. The government is.
Based on the wrong information you spout, I'm pretty sure your version of "studying history" is looking at ML memes online.
The "government" is just an organization of Americans so this statement is self-contradictory.
I can’t even begin to unpack this. Move on.
If you are not a tankie, how can you possibly defend China? If you do, you are a tankie, or you are fucking stupid.
If my "anecdotal evidence" supports the reality, does it matter that it's anecdotal? There is so much fucking evidence of their evil actions yet you blindly follow their propaganda.
And you talk about a narrow view of the world. Wake the fuck up, for your own sake
It’s a map. Not the Boxer Rebellion. Criticizing America is not defending China. I don’t defend China or their propaganda. Your mad about a map article posted on the internet. Take a break.
The freedom of other nations should be of concern, no matter who is the imperialist country.
Care to provide any examples?
_gestures at the world _ source Another one
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any territories that have been incorporated into the US since WWII. The military interventions and soft power stuff hasn't added any territory.
If you’re okay with military interventions and soft power; surely you’re okay, or at least ambivalent, with China doing the same thing.
It depends entirely on the reason. I am not universally opposed to military intervention. But I think the US has wrongfully intervened before as well. It all depends on whether it's a just war.
It’s in China’s self-interest to expand their financial hegemony and weaken America’s. To them, it is just. American Exceptionalism is a myth. We are no better than any other country, and the readers here need to be reminded.
This guy is definitely a troll, he shows up on a lot of posts to try and deflect any criticism back to America. Im guessing if you check his profile you’ll see what I mean but his name has stood out a couple times now on other threads.
I’m human and American. Not a troll. I just see the world as objectively as I can, not how I want it to be. I live in America, but I don’t let my selfishness cloud the reality that America is the cause of many of the world’s problems. You don’t have to agree with me. That’s fine. I’m just here to elevate the discussion beyond the myth of American Exceptionalism.
You're truly exceptional and everyone else is dumb and biased.
No. I have biases and I’m consistently wrong and corrected. But I do try to temper my predilections and use empathy to see other points of view. Compassion is a virtue. I do think I’m smart, not exceptional though. I enjoy learning and encourage everyone to do the same. There are many people on here that are smarter than me, and I welcome their criticism.
Do you have a moral compass? A set of values you compare other things against? If so, does it apply to your views on foreign policy?
Yes. I am a utilitarian and a consequentialist. I’m concerned for the world, not just America’s interests. So all my foreign policy considerations flow from that.
So the good of humanity is the top interest right? So things that China does that are bad for humanity are bad, right? It seems to me like self interested territorial expansion, possibly with military force, would be pretty bad for humanity on the whole.
Yes. Any nation that subverts the sovereignty of another nation through trade or violence is bad for humanity. But eastern and western media create a false dichotomy that if one is good, the other must be bad. It benefits media financially and the governments agendas. But there are other choices. Unfortunately, the geopolitics of trade dictate conflicts over resources so that the other options are untenable. Idealistically, an international system could determine trade and exchange of resources. Realistically, there is no international body that can enforce nations to isolate. So we war.
Edit: I’m not a geopolitical expert.
Ok
Self interest is not absolutely just. Morality isn't defined by what the local government says.
For example, the US in Cuba was unjust though it was in their best interest.
Correct. Utilitarianism is contextual and relative.
But even utilitarianism needs an ultimate goal to maximize utility towards. Is that ultimate good the good of humanity, or the good of China or the US?
The good of humanity.
So when China or the US does things in their own best interest that are against humanity we can condemn them both?
Yes. Or Russia, NATO, BRICS. No nation or organization of nations should have a mandate.
Let me put it like this: China is done. Within the next ten years it will go into decline. They have a birth problem (don't they always?) and current estimates are that by 2050 they'll only have 800 million left of the 1.something billion they have now. This will cause a shit tonne of issues coupled with their economy already being a huge bubble at the moment. Japan had (still has) a similar issue.
With that, their economy will fall, their military power will fall, their world influence will fall.
Source?
Try https://youtu.be/KiaukPUV6Hg?si=5_FqDLj2CSB7wxav I haven't finished this one but it talked about similar issues and the author typically makes well researched videos
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/KiaukPUV6Hg?si=5_FqDLj2CSB7wxav
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Thanks. I’ll watch that. This is not isolated to China though. Japan, America, S.Korea are also experiencing birth declines. It’s a concern in the developed world. I think only Africa is experiencing an increase, as they are developing countries.
South Korea indeed has a similar issue, the USA by my knowledge does not.
Multiples, I'll have to look them up. I'll see if I can find a YouTube video that explains it easier.
Try NATO, defense.gov or state.gov.
It's so weird, you claimed that China and America are doing the same thing, someone just tells you why you're wrong, and you just pivot your position around to something different without acknowledging what just happened.
Is your brain okay?
I hope so. Thanks for asking. I was wrong about territorial expansion since WW2. But I meant to reference American Imperialism. We discussed it.
Yes, the Chinese are perfect and never did anything wrong. They never invaded anywhere, never committed atrocities, never waged war...
I didn’t say that. I’m just pointing out they are no different than America.
If you really believe that China is the same as the USA then you're either lying or ignorant.
For all its flaws and horrible fuckups, I'm pretty sure the USA has never organized genocide, for one. China has, and still does.
Torture still is a big discussion at least in the US, and mostly isn't used, whereas in China and other dictatorships it's just an obvious tool to be used.
Try raising your voice in China. Just go outside and say "fuck Winnie the pooh" and see how much America and China differ
Come on, don't be THAT naive.
is this... is this bait? The USA has organized a handful of genocides.
Unfortunately you're right, I guess I should add there "in the last 100 years" or so.
I think it's fair to say that the USA currently or recently hasn't been engaged in genocides
How do you know of life in China? Have you lived there? Your sources are from Western media that has a vested interest in making China the bad guy. Maybe they are. But I’m gonna remain skeptical. You should to.
Not every western media is like in the US where you can just lie your ass off. Some journalists actually are (and are required to be) good and honest and responsible.
Just because the Chinese state censorship buro didn't tell you how you should think, doesn't mean it's not true.
If China tells you how something is, you can pretty much assume it's that what the government wants you to believe, not what is.
uh?
Oh you mean like the 19th century, when there were several European powers carving up Africa, Asia, and the Pacific?
No. Imperialism.
Right. It sound like you are just fine with it as long as its not monopolized. Or at least committed by the right powers.
I think I agree with you that it should not be monopolized. But I don’t think there are any “right” powers. We need to start understanding that we are all part of this world. Nations are social constructs. From space, there are no borders. I know that sounds hokey and utopian, but it is the truth.