In a republic, representatives in power are elected by the general populace. Their decisions represent the will of the citizenry.
Hamas was freely elected by the people of Gaza in 2006. Their actions did and continue to represent the will of the citizenry. If they didn't, they would not still be in positions of elected authority.
So, in a war of aggression by a democratic state, voting age adults are just as responsible for the actions of their country as the combatants they indirectly sent to harm others.
Gazan adults are either fighting Hamas, or they support Hamas. And I haven't read ANYTHING about Gazans against Hamas taking up arms to free their country from that elected group.
That means that you are personally liable for the 1 Million dead civilians from our unconstitutional war in the middle east.
Using this logic you are fair game for a terrorist attack, and would deserve it.
50% of the population was not born yet during the most recent election where Hamas gained power (16 years ago)
Stop parroting this bullshit and think for yourself
I AM responsible. This is how democracy works. You are responsible for your own governance. Why don't you think for yourself? You can't vote for your government to kill others, and take zero responsibility.
And the people who didn't vote for the government? People who voted for the opposition but didn't win, are they innocent?
Yes, they are innocent. They did not consent to what their elected government is doing, assuming the actions being taken are from representatives they did not vote for.
So I think this paints a picture of a population divided. So all the people under 18 are innocent, we agree on that. And 66% of the adults are also innocent.
That's a lot of innocent people dying right now in the Gaza strip.
I don't disagree. Airstrikes and intelligence on where to put them can only be so reliable.
So edgy. Hand yourself over to Al-Qaeda or ISIS since you are responsible. I will buy your plane ticket for you.
Nope, just because I'm part of a wide, very diluted group collectively responsible doesn't mean I think I am wrong. I am happy for voting representatives into power who used military force against Al-Qaida and ISIS. Fuck them.
No you are going to the Middle East, send me a DM so we can get the plane ticket purchased
Put your money where your mouth is coward
But America isn't a democracy, it's a republic.
And even then, people don't vote on military decisions.
I somewhat agree on principle but practically speaking we live in very large systems with huge momentum these days, even in America where lots of people are armed and can avoid going to a war they don't want to, they're not necessarily going to bust moves against the system itself. If you ask me, the most effective action would simply be to buy your way out and enable mass freedom from such industrial war machines
This is a super simple view of the conflict.
They elected them in 2006. So there hasn't been an election in almost 20 years.
This is a stupid position to take imo.
Germans voted for the Nazi party to take power. And guess what? Germans supported that party, even after that party they chose to put into power suspended elections. If you elect a government that suspends elections, you're still responsible for electing that government. You put them there: you and your fellow citizens gave consent.
Yes famously every single german citizen unanimously supported the nazi party from 1933 to 1945.
Have you ever learned about how the Nazis came into power? The cycle that Hitler became Chancellor, they won only 37% of the vote. Before that, it was a meager 18%. One election of 37% was enough for emergency powers to be seized, the reichstag to be burned, and quite simply the ball to be put in motion. I’m sure you would’ve been first in line to protest their actions beyond that point, but it certainly would’ve been quite the challenge to change the course after that point.
If you’re cool damning an entire population off the decision of 37%(of the population that voted), then I guess your reasoning stands.
Funny that you mention it, but do you know why Germans voted for the Nazis, because they were desperate and put into a corner, after the end of the WWI and the Versailles treaty they were so bad economically that people were desperate, and guess what, desperate people choose desperate solutions. So in a way, Hamas is in power thanks to the Israelian policies.
Do you truly believe that if those people were in peace and living comfortably Hamas would have been elected in the first place?
This is just straight wrong in so many ways I'm afraid.
Taking your same logic, every citizen of every country is responsible for whatever that country does. That means all of the grievances the people of Gaza have are the responsibility of every citizen of Israel.
Lots of civilians die in Total war. On both sides. Using this logic everyone's going to die
Technically the most natural state of tribalism and humanity lol
No, every voting eligible citizen in a democratically elected government is responsible for a war of aggression. They are giving consent to the war of aggression. That is how democracy works: you the citizen decide your own governance, and you are not magically absolved of responsibility for the actions of the government you elected.
Okay, by that logic, the vast majority of the people in the Gaza strip are innocent. The last election was in 2004. The vast majority of people in Gaza are under 18.
Yes, those people are innocent. I have no qualms with that.
In a republic, representatives in power are elected by the general populace. Their decisions represent the will of the citizenry.
Are you 12?
Ya he's giving off some real Libertarian/FrEe MaRkEt/whatevenistheageofconsent vibes
No, I am a voter. Do you know how government works? Are you 12?
There weren't any elections since Hamas took control of Gaza, they have persecuted and expelled/killed all Fatah representatives.
Maybe before saying something try to educate yourself.
I'm someone who understands that:
Governments aren't always elected with the support of a majority of voters, or even a plurality.
A government does not represent the will of the voters who weren't on the winning side of the last election
A government often doesn't represent the will of the voters on the winning side either.
People vote based on what candidates say they're going to do, and they have next to no control over what their leaders actually do after they're elected.
Sounds like you don't understand those very basic facts. Your opinions are therefore not worth listening to.
Unfortunately, you don't understand the basics of living in a society.
Please stop being arrogant and don't assume you have an opinion worth listening to.
Due to the Israeli blockade of goods and travel, these people were happy if they can survive the day to day. let alone fight a regime that even the 4th strongest army in the world is failing to control. But sure, it's their own fault.
In a republic, representatives in power are elected by the general populace. Their decisions represent the will of the citizenry.
Hamas was freely elected by the people of Gaza in 2006. Their actions did and continue to represent the will of the citizenry. If they didn't, they would not still be in positions of elected authority.
So, in a war of aggression by a democratic state, voting age adults are just as responsible for the actions of their country as the combatants they indirectly sent to harm others.
Gazan adults are either fighting Hamas, or they support Hamas. And I haven't read ANYTHING about Gazans against Hamas taking up arms to free their country from that elected group.
That means that you are personally liable for the 1 Million dead civilians from our unconstitutional war in the middle east.
Using this logic you are fair game for a terrorist attack, and would deserve it.
50% of the population was not born yet during the most recent election where Hamas gained power (16 years ago)
Stop parroting this bullshit and think for yourself
I AM responsible. This is how democracy works. You are responsible for your own governance. Why don't you think for yourself? You can't vote for your government to kill others, and take zero responsibility.
And the people who didn't vote for the government? People who voted for the opposition but didn't win, are they innocent?
Yes, they are innocent. They did not consent to what their elected government is doing, assuming the actions being taken are from representatives they did not vote for.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
Hamas got 44% of the vote
Fatah literally fought Hamas for the Gaza strip. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) they lost. But they really really tried
So I think this paints a picture of a population divided. So all the people under 18 are innocent, we agree on that. And 66% of the adults are also innocent.
That's a lot of innocent people dying right now in the Gaza strip.
I don't disagree. Airstrikes and intelligence on where to put them can only be so reliable.
So edgy. Hand yourself over to Al-Qaeda or ISIS since you are responsible. I will buy your plane ticket for you.
Nope, just because I'm part of a wide, very diluted group collectively responsible doesn't mean I think I am wrong. I am happy for voting representatives into power who used military force against Al-Qaida and ISIS. Fuck them.
No you are going to the Middle East, send me a DM so we can get the plane ticket purchased
Put your money where your mouth is coward
But America isn't a democracy, it's a republic.
And even then, people don't vote on military decisions.
I somewhat agree on principle but practically speaking we live in very large systems with huge momentum these days, even in America where lots of people are armed and can avoid going to a war they don't want to, they're not necessarily going to bust moves against the system itself. If you ask me, the most effective action would simply be to buy your way out and enable mass freedom from such industrial war machines
This is a super simple view of the conflict.
They elected them in 2006. So there hasn't been an election in almost 20 years.
This is a stupid position to take imo.
Germans voted for the Nazi party to take power. And guess what? Germans supported that party, even after that party they chose to put into power suspended elections. If you elect a government that suspends elections, you're still responsible for electing that government. You put them there: you and your fellow citizens gave consent.
Yes famously every single german citizen unanimously supported the nazi party from 1933 to 1945.
Have you ever learned about how the Nazis came into power? The cycle that Hitler became Chancellor, they won only 37% of the vote. Before that, it was a meager 18%. One election of 37% was enough for emergency powers to be seized, the reichstag to be burned, and quite simply the ball to be put in motion. I’m sure you would’ve been first in line to protest their actions beyond that point, but it certainly would’ve been quite the challenge to change the course after that point.
If you’re cool damning an entire population off the decision of 37%(of the population that voted), then I guess your reasoning stands.
Funny that you mention it, but do you know why Germans voted for the Nazis, because they were desperate and put into a corner, after the end of the WWI and the Versailles treaty they were so bad economically that people were desperate, and guess what, desperate people choose desperate solutions. So in a way, Hamas is in power thanks to the Israelian policies.
Do you truly believe that if those people were in peace and living comfortably Hamas would have been elected in the first place?
This is just straight wrong in so many ways I'm afraid.
Taking your same logic, every citizen of every country is responsible for whatever that country does. That means all of the grievances the people of Gaza have are the responsibility of every citizen of Israel.
Your advocating the doctrine of Total war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
Lots of civilians die in Total war. On both sides. Using this logic everyone's going to die
Technically the most natural state of tribalism and humanity lol
No, every voting eligible citizen in a democratically elected government is responsible for a war of aggression. They are giving consent to the war of aggression. That is how democracy works: you the citizen decide your own governance, and you are not magically absolved of responsibility for the actions of the government you elected.
Okay, by that logic, the vast majority of the people in the Gaza strip are innocent. The last election was in 2004. The vast majority of people in Gaza are under 18.
Yes, those people are innocent. I have no qualms with that.
Are you 12?
Ya he's giving off some real Libertarian/FrEe MaRkEt/whatevenistheageofconsent vibes
No, I am a voter. Do you know how government works? Are you 12?
There weren't any elections since Hamas took control of Gaza, they have persecuted and expelled/killed all Fatah representatives.
Maybe before saying something try to educate yourself.
I'm someone who understands that:
Sounds like you don't understand those very basic facts. Your opinions are therefore not worth listening to.
Unfortunately, you don't understand the basics of living in a society. Please stop being arrogant and don't assume you have an opinion worth listening to.
Due to the Israeli blockade of goods and travel, these people were happy if they can survive the day to day. let alone fight a regime that even the 4th strongest army in the world is failing to control. But sure, it's their own fault.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict
50% of the population of Gaza is 15 or lower. The majority of the people there never voted for Hamas.
Hey, you cannot say that here! It doesn't fit the general narrative. What are you thinking? /s