Norway says Israel response to Hamas attack disproportionate
timesofisrael.com
Norway’s prime minister says the Israeli army’s response to the deadly Hamas attack that killed 1,400 people and saw over 230 abducted by terrorists has been disproportionate, and denounces a “catastrophic” humanitarian situation in Gaza.
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The comments on that article are really missing the point that leveling a city block to kill a few terrorists almost invariably means you created more terrorists than you killed.
Unfortunately I'm not so sure they're missing the point. I'm afraid there's quite a few people who are just excited to see their scheduled genocide put into motion.
Far too many people seem to be itching to find an enemy, all so they can justify their desire for vindictive bloodlust.
Killing is a bad thing, and can only ever be justified when it prevents something worse. But that doesn't mean you should enjoy it.
Finding an enemy, anyone, to rally angry and hate-fueled people has been a solid political staple for at least the last decade or so. The only "new"-ish part is that a lot of people are dying as a direct result of that now.
They know this, that's the point, they want a biting dog that you can euthanize instead of the calm golden lab everyone will be upset with you for putting down
Yeah...
The ultimate tragedy of the last few weeks is that the average Israeli will only be more radicalized against Palestine, while the average Palestinian will only be more radicalized against Israel. It's a perpetual cycle of anger and violence that has no end in sight, and I don't feel any hope for a better future for the region and the innocent people on either side of the conflict.
What should have happened, like yesterday, should be obvious to anyone with a brain and a heart: Hamas should free all of their hostages and turn over anybody who participated in the terrorist attack on Israeli civilians, and Israel should cease fire immediately, call all settlers back and return the Gaza borders back to what they were a month ago. Terrorism and genocide are inexcusable, and the simple fact is that both sides have the blood of the innocent on their hands, all because of the politics of greed.
There is much more Israel should be doing. Not least is allowing travel between Gaza and the West Bank.
We are a far cry from free travel between Gaza and the West Bank.
The likelihood of that is lower now than it's ever been.
We shouldn't be.
The only solution to the region is a Palestine that is prosperous and free. So long as people have nothing to lose, they will continue laying down their lives.
Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government want peace. They're not going to try to fix a situation neither sees as a problem.
Like in any war of occupation: the ever more militarized government of the occupier and the ever more militarized force of the occupied are objective allies.
Hamas wants peace but as you can see in the west bank being nice to the israeli colonists will only get you killed and your land stolen.
Violence starts when a party isn't willing to come to peaceful agreements and in this case the israelis are the ones who keep seeking war.
Hamas wants "peace" in the form of a repressive Islamic state which is run by Sharia law. They are not friends to the Palestinian people. They are Iranian puppets.
As Bibi himself said, supporting hamas makes sense if your goal is to prevent a palestenian state.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Also Israeli funded.
Hamas wants peace by eradicating Israel. I don’t think that the two can find common ground there.
They want to eradicate the illegal occupation of their land, not the israelis themselves
Israel however seeks to eradicate the Palestinian people. This is a huge difference.
Wow look at all those downvote for stating a fact. The pro-Israel crowd sure is sensitive when facts that don't agree with their propaganda are mentioned.
I'm going to need a source on this.
I think this would be news to most, including Hamas.
The first thing that should have happened is the dethroning of Netanyahu. The fact the guy who let it happen is still in charge is by far the biggest cause of this.
Wow you must have like, really smart
That is certainly one point and how we are, still Here after decades. Another point is that if you do that, you have become the bad guy.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
It's really insane and the comparison pics are from over a week ago now.
I think they don't mind if everyone in Gaza dies.
Not to worry, we will kill these up-and-comers too
Maybe israel can beat the previous high score of 6 million
palestine only has 4 million people... so they will have to add other minorities to the mix if they wanna beat the high score
I feel like that fact won't stop them from trying anyway.
Sure, sounds like a well thought out and good pla...
Wait a sec, is that your mom and sister that just got kidnapped and raped? Is that your baby's dismembered head lying at your feet?
Oh shit, maybe your stupid decisions will actually affect you and you'll see how it's not such a good one to begin with.
If you're cool with suffering as long as it's not your own, you're a piece of shit.
Is this the only thing that troubles you? Hamas creates terrorists anyway. Palestinians are being told they need to kill Jews in order to become heroes, which will get them money they really need. It's not much different from Russia where people are led by propaganda but ultimately decide to abandon peaceful life for a chance to get big money.
Palestinians are fighting for their land and their freedom against a war-crime-comitting occupier.
Whatever that "fighting" involves, it doesn't seem to work well for them, does it? Why would you stub yourself with a knife if you want to cure a flu?
Are you suggesting that they shouldn't fight for their land and freedom?
Are you suggesting to be able to cure a flu by stabbing yourself with a knife?
Your terminology is idiotic and useless.
You prefer calling a truth you don't like useless? Because it's the truth that hamas will not be able to achieve its goals (kill all jews and destroy Israel) using what they have and receive as aid, even if they build tons of missiles they usually build. This is not how you "fight for freedom" because the freedom will never be the result of it. They need to change a lot in order to even try better. For example build defenses along with missiles for a change etc.
In the past Israel beloved that. But the organization of Hamas has scared them. They believe that they need to destroy the Command and Control infrastructure Hamas has for its 40k person military or Hamas will simply organize followup slave raids.
Even if you magically manage to kill every member of Hamas... You don't think all the killing won't start another terror cell under a different name?
Maybe but in that case they'd have to rebuild their command and control infrastructure to stage another attack like this and to stockpile rocket artillery.
That gives Gazans time to grow older and hopefully push for change.
Grow older and push for change? Palestinians have been growing older and pushing for change since 1948. Have you seen how the IDF responds when they have had mass protests? A massive key for change will be when tax dollars in the US stop funding IDF bombing. And in the meantime, the alleged 'command and control infrastructure' that was destroyed was likely a tower block holding dozens of families who are now dead or have no home.
The average age in Gaza is 18 years old. So yes, they can grow older and hopefully the international community will withhold aid dollars until regular elections are restored in the region.
When's the last time they had mass protests against their own government?
Unfortunately that will likely be counter productive if the goal is minimizing casualties. What the IDF is doing could be done significantly cheaper with artillery strikes instead of smart bombs. It just requires more wide spread bombing, more acceptance of civillian casualties and less regard for civilian infrastructure and a result that looks like Bakhmut.
And without funding for things like the Iron Dome, Israel would have been forced to re-invade and partition Gaza similar to the West Bank years ago and would have likely restarted settlements and colonization efforts there.
Dude the average age is 18 because they keep dying. They aren't getting older. They're getting dead. Israel keeps killing them through starvation, lack of medical access, and shooting them for any reason they can think of.
The Demographics don't back that up. It seems more like those who can emigrate away from the Strip as soon as they can and those who stay have had an incredibly high birth rate. That's why the strip has almost doubled in population since 2000.
That's Wikipedia. And with a reported death rate around 600 per 100,000 they're either the healthiest country in the world or these numbers are highly suspect.
It could be that way, but the historical numbers are from the PCBS they could be wrong systemically; but I don't know of a better source.
It still smells like a massive undercount. If you gave me that number for a Western country it would be ridiculous too. It's just not a realistic number.
It seems more like if the number had agreed with your assertion instead of refuted it you'd have accepted the source as generally accurate.
I can't offer you any proof because this is the Internet but I just really don't like bad data. It gets used for rhetoric all the time and it's exhausting to track down. In this case though, for reference, a normal deaths per 100k in a well supplied, peaceful, western country, is 800 to 900. To put forward these numbers in a poorly supplied middle eastern warzone is ridiculous.
Do you have a better source, or an explanation for why this agency would lie?
Nope. Sometimes we just don't have good data.
With strikes targeting rockets and tunnels, the Israeli tactic of ‘mowing the grass’ returns to Gaza - 2021 Washington post
You just described the "mowing the grass" doctrine.
Yes. Ultimately if Hamas/Gazans continue to insist on "Genocide or Bust" as their foreign policy that's really the only way to kick the can down the road.
Apartheid is the main catalyst for violence. If normal people had lives they could look forward toz and see a future then Hamas would lose its support.
Gaza gets more than enough aid to build that sort of a future for it's people. We're talking billions of dollars of consistent aid for a population of about 2M. Just the UNWRA from 2014-2021 averaged $750M/yr of aid and the PA injected a further $1.7B in salary for non-working government employees living in the strip. That's enough to rebuild the Gazan airport every year. With that money they could have coated the strip with Ground Light Rail. They could have expanded the Commercial Port in Gaza City. In three years they could have built out fiber to every household in the strip.
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#economy
$5000 GDP per Capita. That's pretty dire, especially considering Gaza has no ability to conduct trade, import supplies, build industries.
A 30% unemployment rate is huge....
The numbers sound big individually, but per Capita they are very poor.
$750M in aid just from the UNWRA per year from 2017 to 2021. That's enough to rebuild their airport every single year. That's enough to coat the 23 mile spine with Ground Light Rail. That was enough to bring fiber Internet to every household in Gaza.
They're poor because their squandering massive amounts of aid. Can you imagine how much good that aid would do in Haiti?
You literally repeated the comment I responded to. So let's just pretend I copy and pasted my response to your response.
Lets then pretend I once again pointed out that Gaza has and has had the resources to build a vibrant prosperous future and this time you respond to it.
ok... quoting my original response.
"The numbers sound individually big, but per capita are very poor"
Because it's still relevant. Gaza is getting more than enough aid to build a future. They're squandering it.
My response is still relevant. 5000 GDP is insufficient for a country that has no trade