Norway says Israel response to Hamas attack disproportionate
timesofisrael.com
Norway’s prime minister says the Israeli army’s response to the deadly Hamas attack that killed 1,400 people and saw over 230 abducted by terrorists has been disproportionate, and denounces a “catastrophic” humanitarian situation in Gaza.
The comments on that article are really missing the point that leveling a city block to kill a few terrorists almost invariably means you created more terrorists than you killed.
Unfortunately I'm not so sure they're missing the point. I'm afraid there's quite a few people who are just excited to see their scheduled genocide put into motion.
Far too many people seem to be itching to find an enemy, all so they can justify their desire for vindictive bloodlust.
Killing is a bad thing, and can only ever be justified when it prevents something worse. But that doesn't mean you should enjoy it.
Finding an enemy, anyone, to rally angry and hate-fueled people has been a solid political staple for at least the last decade or so. The only "new"-ish part is that a lot of people are dying as a direct result of that now.
They know this, that's the point, they want a biting dog that you can euthanize instead of the calm golden lab everyone will be upset with you for putting down
Yeah...
The ultimate tragedy of the last few weeks is that the average Israeli will only be more radicalized against Palestine, while the average Palestinian will only be more radicalized against Israel. It's a perpetual cycle of anger and violence that has no end in sight, and I don't feel any hope for a better future for the region and the innocent people on either side of the conflict.
What should have happened, like yesterday, should be obvious to anyone with a brain and a heart: Hamas should free all of their hostages and turn over anybody who participated in the terrorist attack on Israeli civilians, and Israel should cease fire immediately, call all settlers back and return the Gaza borders back to what they were a month ago. Terrorism and genocide are inexcusable, and the simple fact is that both sides have the blood of the innocent on their hands, all because of the politics of greed.
There is much more Israel should be doing. Not least is allowing travel between Gaza and the West Bank.
We are a far cry from free travel between Gaza and the West Bank.
The likelihood of that is lower now than it's ever been.
We shouldn't be.
The only solution to the region is a Palestine that is prosperous and free. So long as people have nothing to lose, they will continue laying down their lives.
Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government want peace. They're not going to try to fix a situation neither sees as a problem.
Like in any war of occupation: the ever more militarized government of the occupier and the ever more militarized force of the occupied are objective allies.
Hamas wants peace but as you can see in the west bank being nice to the israeli colonists will only get you killed and your land stolen.
Violence starts when a party isn't willing to come to peaceful agreements and in this case the israelis are the ones who keep seeking war.
Hamas wants "peace" in the form of a repressive Islamic state which is run by Sharia law. They are not friends to the Palestinian people. They are Iranian puppets.
As Bibi himself said, supporting hamas makes sense if your goal is to prevent a palestenian state.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Also Israeli funded.
Wow look at all those downvote for stating a fact. The pro-Israel crowd sure is sensitive when facts that don't agree with their propaganda are mentioned.
Hamas wants peace by eradicating Israel. I don’t think that the two can find common ground there.
They want to eradicate the illegal occupation of their land, not the israelis themselves
Israel however seeks to eradicate the Palestinian people. This is a huge difference.
I'm going to need a source on this.
I think this would be news to most, including Hamas.
The first thing that should have happened is the dethroning of Netanyahu. The fact the guy who let it happen is still in charge is by far the biggest cause of this.
Wow you must have like, really smart
That is certainly one point and how we are, still Here after decades. Another point is that if you do that, you have become the bad guy.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
It's really insane and the comparison pics are from over a week ago now.
I think they don't mind if everyone in Gaza dies.
Not to worry, we will kill these up-and-comers too
Maybe israel can beat the previous high score of 6 million
palestine only has 4 million people... so they will have to add other minorities to the mix if they wanna beat the high score
I feel like that fact won't stop them from trying anyway.
Sure, sounds like a well thought out and good pla...
Wait a sec, is that your mom and sister that just got kidnapped and raped? Is that your baby's dismembered head lying at your feet?
Oh shit, maybe your stupid decisions will actually affect you and you'll see how it's not such a good one to begin with.
If you're cool with suffering as long as it's not your own, you're a piece of shit.
Is this the only thing that troubles you? Hamas creates terrorists anyway. Palestinians are being told they need to kill Jews in order to become heroes, which will get them money they really need. It's not much different from Russia where people are led by propaganda but ultimately decide to abandon peaceful life for a chance to get big money.
Palestinians are fighting for their land and their freedom against a war-crime-comitting occupier.
Whatever that "fighting" involves, it doesn't seem to work well for them, does it? Why would you stub yourself with a knife if you want to cure a flu?
Are you suggesting that they shouldn't fight for their land and freedom?
Are you suggesting to be able to cure a flu by stabbing yourself with a knife?
Your terminology is idiotic and useless.
You prefer calling a truth you don't like useless? Because it's the truth that hamas will not be able to achieve its goals (kill all jews and destroy Israel) using what they have and receive as aid, even if they build tons of missiles they usually build. This is not how you "fight for freedom" because the freedom will never be the result of it. They need to change a lot in order to even try better. For example build defenses along with missiles for a change etc.
In the past Israel beloved that. But the organization of Hamas has scared them. They believe that they need to destroy the Command and Control infrastructure Hamas has for its 40k person military or Hamas will simply organize followup slave raids.
Even if you magically manage to kill every member of Hamas... You don't think all the killing won't start another terror cell under a different name?
Maybe but in that case they'd have to rebuild their command and control infrastructure to stage another attack like this and to stockpile rocket artillery.
That gives Gazans time to grow older and hopefully push for change.
Grow older and push for change? Palestinians have been growing older and pushing for change since 1948. Have you seen how the IDF responds when they have had mass protests? A massive key for change will be when tax dollars in the US stop funding IDF bombing. And in the meantime, the alleged 'command and control infrastructure' that was destroyed was likely a tower block holding dozens of families who are now dead or have no home.
The average age in Gaza is 18 years old. So yes, they can grow older and hopefully the international community will withhold aid dollars until regular elections are restored in the region.
When's the last time they had mass protests against their own government?
Unfortunately that will likely be counter productive if the goal is minimizing casualties. What the IDF is doing could be done significantly cheaper with artillery strikes instead of smart bombs. It just requires more wide spread bombing, more acceptance of civillian casualties and less regard for civilian infrastructure and a result that looks like Bakhmut.
And without funding for things like the Iron Dome, Israel would have been forced to re-invade and partition Gaza similar to the West Bank years ago and would have likely restarted settlements and colonization efforts there.
Dude the average age is 18 because they keep dying. They aren't getting older. They're getting dead. Israel keeps killing them through starvation, lack of medical access, and shooting them for any reason they can think of.
The Demographics don't back that up. It seems more like those who can emigrate away from the Strip as soon as they can and those who stay have had an incredibly high birth rate. That's why the strip has almost doubled in population since 2000.
That's Wikipedia. And with a reported death rate around 600 per 100,000 they're either the healthiest country in the world or these numbers are highly suspect.
It could be that way, but the historical numbers are from the PCBS they could be wrong systemically; but I don't know of a better source.
It still smells like a massive undercount. If you gave me that number for a Western country it would be ridiculous too. It's just not a realistic number.
It seems more like if the number had agreed with your assertion instead of refuted it you'd have accepted the source as generally accurate.
Do you have a better source, or an explanation for why this agency would lie?
With strikes targeting rockets and tunnels, the Israeli tactic of ‘mowing the grass’ returns to Gaza - 2021 Washington post
You just described the "mowing the grass" doctrine.
Yes. Ultimately if Hamas/Gazans continue to insist on "Genocide or Bust" as their foreign policy that's really the only way to kick the can down the road.
Apartheid is the main catalyst for violence. If normal people had lives they could look forward toz and see a future then Hamas would lose its support.
Gaza gets more than enough aid to build that sort of a future for it's people. We're talking billions of dollars of consistent aid for a population of about 2M. Just the UNWRA from 2014-2021 averaged $750M/yr of aid and the PA injected a further $1.7B in salary for non-working government employees living in the strip. That's enough to rebuild the Gazan airport every year. With that money they could have coated the strip with Ground Light Rail. They could have expanded the Commercial Port in Gaza City. In three years they could have built out fiber to every household in the strip.
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#economy
$5000 GDP per Capita. That's pretty dire, especially considering Gaza has no ability to conduct trade, import supplies, build industries.
A 30% unemployment rate is huge....
The numbers sound big individually, but per Capita they are very poor.
$750M in aid just from the UNWRA per year from 2017 to 2021. That's enough to rebuild their airport every single year. That's enough to coat the 23 mile spine with Ground Light Rail. That was enough to bring fiber Internet to every household in Gaza.
They're poor because their squandering massive amounts of aid. Can you imagine how much good that aid would do in Haiti?
You literally repeated the comment I responded to. So let's just pretend I copy and pasted my response to your response.
Lets then pretend I once again pointed out that Gaza has and has had the resources to build a vibrant prosperous future and this time you respond to it.
Because it's still relevant. Gaza is getting more than enough aid to build a future. They're squandering it.
I'm glad a western country had the balls to say it.
Ireland and Norway have historically been critical of this.
Actually what this guy said is:
But the Times of Israel likes to erase this from the title and make it sound like they just went one woopsie too far. Poor genocidal Israel... pout
Disproportionate response has been Israel's policy for decades.
It is literally their stated policy of "Mowing the grass"
They learned it from the best teacher, big bro murica.
Ya know, atomic bombs, 20 years of Afghan, Vietcong war blah blah.
Disproportionate responses end some conflicts faster because they remove the illusion of a fair fight your enemy might still believe they could win.
Of course, it makes you look like a psycho, but thats kinda the point.
America sure ended Iraq and Afghanistan fast.
The first gulf was so effective it saved countless Iraqi lives. Presenting airpower so goddamn unfair thousands just ran into the desert rather than stay and get killed. It really is as fast and humane as it can be, as long as the execution is perfect
Found Dick Cheney
He didn't really have nothing to do with the execution of the attack, gen Schwartzkopf or however the fuck his name is written was in charge of that. I mean I know you're memeing but I'd just like to make that point. Really interesting guy too check out his memoirs.
Bro really just said “war crimes sure makes war much easier!” What???
A disproportionate response is not necessarily a war crime. That said, you are right that war crimes make war crimes easier!
People didn't like this post, but the truth is unpopular. It's not like I'm encouraging war crimes after all, but you just haven't been paying attention if you think they don't make additional war crimes easier.
War crimes have definitions, though, so lots of terrible things aren't war crimes... they're just war.
Wikipedia search gives some results.
"Rockets are still being fired from Gaza into Israel, and we condemn this,” he adds.
Disproportionate is an understatement.
The real shame is that Israel's attack in response to the recent terror attack has been closer to proportionate than its "retaliations" over the past decades.
That's....terrible.
They always are
I vote this for understatement of the week.
I wonder if this story is biased? /s
How so? It seems to consist basically entirely of direct quotes. So unless they misquoted or are leaving out some massively important context, I can't see how it would be biased.
Norway’s prime minister says the Israeli army’s response to the deadly Hamas attack that killed 1,400 people and saw over 230 abducted by terrorists has been disproportionate, and denounces a “catastrophic” humanitarian situation in Gaza.
No mention of the mass killings and displaced people of Palestine. The quotes were convenient for the narrative, all the stories on the website follow the same narrative. No mention of innocent Palestinians and Israel people who don't support the war. Just how they have to get Hamas and need funds to support the war.
The war affects innocent people on both sides.
Tell us something new, Norway.
Disproportionate is the best way to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Also could be how you radicalize future generations against you.
That's why is pragmatic to leave none left. Not saying it's good or right, just that from a pure strategy standpoint it makes sense what they're doing.
Are you actually defending this?...
Just saying it's pragmatic given the various parties goals.
This whole thing is horrible, and has been horrible for a long time. It's clear now peaceful coexisting is not an option. Only one of these two has the ability to permanently end the conflict.
Better not say anything because of fearing big daddy USA, than these platitudes. you sound too weak Norway.
Preface that I have no solutions to offer to the conflict.
But if a school bully takes your lunch one too many times, he's eventually gonna get punched in the face. But in this case, Hamas is too underpowered to be the school bully.
It's more like the mosquito that just won't stop buzzing in your ear even though you are traipsing in his forest. Except this mosquito flies with 2m of his closest brothers and sisters and your response is to burn his forest down.
I don't know what I'm trying to say. Hamas has annoyed Israel one too many times and now is getting an angry, irrational response with tons of collateral damage. Not a calculated response.
Perhaps the only thing I can offer is that the response from Israel isn't all that irrational. Every person can be driven to the point of breaking and lashing out.
Israel has obviously completely had it with Hamas and would rather bear the international consequences of wiping Gaza off the map instead of facing one more rocket across that border. Honestly that is a pretty fucking huge miscalculation for Hamas. Because Israel is a much better international diplomat and the winner gets to write the history book.
When you have two kids on the school yard that are lashing out, the principal comes along and makes sure neither crosses the others path again. That may be how this ends, but I fear the world doesn't care enough about either side to get involved that way.
I think that analogy is backwards here. Israel is the school bully. This has never not been the case, ever since the partition. In the past 75 years Israel has been displacing and killing Palestinian people, restricting freedom of movement, doing settler colonialism and genocide. Hamas’s horrific terror attacks are the result of the material conditions of Palestinian people deteriorating. The more Israel pushes them into a corner, the more extremism will look that a real choice to them.
Israel keeps taking Palestinian lunches, but much of the western world doesn’t care because they are Israel’s allies. Then the western world hears about hamas attacks and gives israel more money and weapons, continuing the cycle.
lol 1948? When all their neighbours attcked them? And the three wars after that?
Yeah in 1948 when they started their genocide. Why do you think their neighbors started attacking them? Do you really think that it has nothing to do with the borders drawn up by the British, which forced an apartheid state onto the Palestinians?
They started the genocide by beeing attacked? Drawn by the UN and all arab states voted on it, but didnt like the result.
Huh kinda weird how all of the people who would ultimately be affected by this new theocratic ethnostate voted against it huh? Did you ever stop to think that that is?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
Western powers created a state that they had no business creating, against the wishes of the local population. When the locals fought back, a war broke out and Israel used the opportunity to take 60% of the land that was a part of the agreed Arab state as well as numerous zones that they were supposed to be sharing. That ended up displacing almost a million Palestinians.
A perfect analogy to this conflict is if someone ran into your home, said they owned 50% of your house, then when you fight back they throw you in the bathroom and keep even more of it. Ever since you get less and less. All the while the western imperial core supports them.
I mostly agree with your assessment. I don't think anybody is going to intervene militarily. The world's just not that interested.
We might see some economic embargos for humanitarian reasons kind of like the South African history, but that's going to be a long time in the future. It's going to require a huge PR campaign, and political goodwill to erode.