Many voters are weary about a Biden-Trump rematch in 2024. Third parties hope they can fill the gap
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PHOENIX (AP) -- The 2024 presidential election is drawing an unusually robust field of independent, third party and long shot candidates hoping to capitalize on Americans' ambivalence and frustration over a likely rematch between Democrat Joe Biden and Republican Donald Trump.
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I think a lot of people thinking about voting third party are going to need reasons TO vote for someone, not reasons to not vote for the other guy. Telling them “it’s just voting for Trump” isn’t going to convince them.
And no, I’m not planning on voting third party. But finger-wagging won’t convince anyone already looking elsewhere.
If a Trump presidency doesn't scare the shit out of them at this point, then they were already looking for excuses to support him, and "I want someone to vote FOR" is just a stupid excuse.
Like, I want a gazillion dollars and a private island, but I also don't smear shit on the walls of the public library when I wake up and don't get those things. Anyone who does, just wanted to smear shit on the walls.
Yup. It is basically the same as how Romney and Cheney are "good republicans" because they want all the same shit trump does but want to pretend they are classier than that
I haven't seen Dark Brandon in a while. Like, months.
I vote FOR Dark Brandon. I'll give Biden my vote over Trump. Those are different things, even if the objective measure looks the same.
I'd like to vote for DB and get him.
Hey man, the dude has enough sense to understand that between the situations in Ukraine and Israel, the world is in a fucked up place at the moment. He's a lifelong statesman, and he's probably telling his more aggressive political advisors to back the hell off so we can figure out what the hell is going on and maybe get our hostages to safety. I respect him for that, and I'm not entirely convinced that being combative or bellicose would be even remotely helpful right now, despite the fact that it would make you feel better in the here and now.
So you don't get Dark Brandon exactly when you want him? And you have to wait....checks notes....a few months? Tough shit. If you have to wait months for him to come out, imagine how many decades you're going to wait for the institutions of this country to recover from this. If "I had to wait months for Dark Brandon" is enough for you to waffle on the gravity of your decision in 2024, then you were already lost before this conversation started.
To be fair to OP, I've seen "Dark Brandon" more as a meme to vex conservatives, used when Biden accomplishes a one of his policies, and particularly when fighting to get student loans forgiven.
This.
Dark Brandon gets policy wins, judges in seats, he moves things. He gets funding for Ukraine.
I haven't seen as much of that.
Israel isn't something I agree as much with him on, but that's not what I was talking about.
It's been a few days so this thread should largely be inert.
I'm not sure who you were replying to because it wasn't me.
I said nothing about Israel. I said I'd give him my vote. Your tone was dismissive to someone who wrote what you wanted to read, but I did not say or imply.
Not interested in a flame war, only discussion. If you respond with hostility or more bad faith, you'll get the last word - I'll not reply.
Joe Biden and Dark Brandon are the same person. You're splitting rhetorical hairs for the sake of argumentation, based largely on a meme, and there's no need for me to substantially respond to what is largely a meaningless assertion. You just refuse to give Biden credit for Dark Brandon's accomplishments, which is insane.
I used a rhetorical device to easily distinguish what excites me about him being president versus what's meh. It worked and works.
Most people know they aren't going to see a DB meme for the Israel topic *that you introduced from... Somewhere? *
He's chalked up wins and I know he'll end up with L's. But I prefer seeing him using his political capital on the economy, green energy, trust busting, courts... The virtuous things Roosevelts did.
You keep implying I said something I didn't and your post history is argumentative. Smart, but too many elbows. This will be my last reply.
You made an assertion that amounts to little more than "I like him when he does some things, but not when he does others."
No shit, sherlock. That's how all of this works. You want a cookie?
Anyone not terrified of a Republican and/or Trump presidency has a shitton of privilege and needs to fucking check it. Cishet, white and men are prominent demographics for "he won't hurt me too badly" and by the time the redcaps come for those not in lockstep it'll be far, far too late.
In other words lots of people have an incredibly childish attitude about voting and are completely prepared to throw a little tantrum in the voting booth even if it means fascists get to take over the whole federal government. I'm becoming pretty convinced that people like that are just incapable of rational decision making.
It’s crazy how people view voting. In life we have so many situations where we look at realistic options and choose the best thing, or even the least bad thing, from those options.
But then with voting people feel like making their vote should be like wishing on a birthday cake. It’s totally irrational, as you say.
If we don't accept that irrational people exist and do what we can to get their votes, we risk the return of Trump.
But it's way more fun to shout at them.
One can't cater to or court the irrational. We can however stop humoring them and giving them undeserved respect. That might lead more rational people to mistakenly consider them.
Republicans keep doing it. They beat Clinton in 2016 by doing it.
Centrist Democrats would rather lose than debase themselves by moving one Planck length to the left.
And it's coming back to bite them in the ass. Further, condoning and catering to those views only speeds up the rotting brain mush that is the current American political psyche. Making it easier for fascist strong men to take over. On undeliverable promises of candy mountains and soda pop swimming pools. As a socialist largely opposed to Democrats neoliberal economic plans. I can still support them, as our best current possible option. But they absolutely do need to promote themselves better.
But Republicans have cornered the market on those who enjoy being lied to at infinitem. And it is simply not a viable tactic for democrats to even try to steal that group from them.
So first it'll never work, and now it works but it's biting Republicans in the ass by... giving them control of the House and the Supreme Court. When you're finally done moving goalposts, please return them.
Yeah, I can support them too. That doesn't mean I need to shut up when I think they're making stupid mistakes, particularly since they're gonna blame me for the results regardless of who I vote for.
Yes, in a long-term scope it will never work. The statements are not contradictory no matter how hard you try to imply that they are.
Love that straw man though. Why that's even non sequitur. The thought process to contort from someone pointing out that they're a socialist and disagree with Democrats. To claiming that critiquing democrats is inappropriate after immediately critiquing democrats. That's such an odd claim that I'm inclined to ask if you were reading off the wrong script.
That said, in the context of presidential elections. One should NEVER consider 3rd party candidates until one of 2 things happen. First past the post voting is replaced with something better. Or said 3rd party has a presence in state or federal legislature of 10% of US states.
Criticize Democrats all you want. I sure do. In the meantime primary them, push them left. But don't split the vote letting the ideal be the enemy of reality when it's important. And it's very important Trump never gets back in. Well important if you like even having an illusion of voting.
So, first you said it can't work. I provided an example of it working. Then you moved the goalposts and said it's biting Republicans in the ass. I pointed out that they gained power, not lost it. And now you've moved them again and said it can't work long term. I didn't say it needs to.
If it's vital to the very continued existence of Democracy that Trump loses this next election, why are we not trying to get every vote we can, even from people who you consider irrational? It certainly never stopped the Democratic Party from moving to the right to court the few remaining irrational moderate Republicans who stay with that party even after what it's become. Why is it always the left that has to think about the short term when we're being screamed at to vote for the candidate who will maybe consider temporarily forestalling fascism because eventually the party will totally start listening to anyone to the left of Manchin? Why does the party never have to think about the short term and court people who it considers beneath their contempt so that they can forestall fascism?
At no point have I suggested voting for a third party. To the contrary, I think the Democratic party should work to get those votes back, because it needs them. But for some reason, that never works because of wherever you decide to put the goalposts this time.
Sure, if you happen to like wild accusations.
If you're at a restaurant and they don't have anything you want, you can go to a different restaurant.
In this case I'm tied to a chair and forced to pick a douche or a shit sandwich while people tell me I'm a bad person for not wanting either.
An apt analogy would be: you are diagnosed with cancer, and you can choose to (a) go through treatment and have a high chance of survival, or (b) let the cancer run its course and die.
Voting third party in this country is equivalent to saying “I’m going to go to a faith healer instead”. You think you’re choosing a more appealing option but you’re actually just choosing option b.
Nah, fuck that. A restaurant doesn't serve cocaine-laced cupcakes that give you an orgasm, yet you still down the bacon cheeseburger because the latter tastes good and the former simply isn't an option. Anyone who walks in and refuses to order from the menu because they can't get a blowjob and a back massage with it, is a fucking moron.
You don't walk in an order from the menu. You're born in the restaurant, tied to a chair, told it's the greatest restaurant ever created, and given two horrible choices.
And then people like you yell at me for pointing this out.
A group of people walks into the restaurant, and you all agree to vote for a family meal so you can eat together. The choices are chicken, beef, or pork. When the rest of the group votes for chicken, and you walk out because you didn't get what you wanted, you are the asshole.
Don't like it? Move the fuck somewhere else and bitch to them about how you still can't get what you want in their electoral system. Your need for instant gratification is destroying this country.
Except I don't agree, and it's not voluntary. I'll be force-fed the shitty dry chicken and can't leave or not eat it. I'd happily sit there and have the salad if they voted to have chicken, but that's not possible here.
I would love to move somewhere else. Except even then the government of the US will have an influence on me. And it costs a ton of money to do that which I don't have, in part because our government is broken as fuck.
And it would be awesome to have literally any gratification after 24 years of voting. Two and a half decades and the planet is still dying, education and health care are still too expensive, and the rich assholes keep getting richer at everyone else's expense.
At some point I had to concede that voting will not provide any gratification at all, let alone instant gratification. I get shitty dry chicken, shitty dry pork chops, or shitty dry beef, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
Oh I'm sorry. I missed the point where someone held you at gunpoint and forced you to vote for a Democrat? Because from where I sit a shitload of them got together and agreed to hold a contest. The winner made it out, and the group threw their support behind the winner against the dude the other team put up. And he won.
Don't like it? Join the fucking Republicans and vote for Trump! Go ahead! He'd love to have your support! Don't like them either? Join the Greens! Don't like them either? Join Cornel West! Don't like him? Join No Labels! Don't like them? Start your own fucking political party and register as a candidate. Don't want to do that?
Then sit the fuck down and let the rest of the adults in the room take care of business while you suck your thumb. There's 80 goddamned million of us who decided Biden's the one who checks most of our boxes, for better or worse, and those of us not stuck in la la land will vote for him again, because we're not too keen on that whole fascist hell-hole scenario thing.
I'm convinced people like you have never sat in a room with more than 4 people and had to come to a consensus decision on anything. I can only assume it's because you've been shoveling movie theater popcorn and were never responsible for making any meaningful decisions, or you're a tyrannical man-child who runs a small business like a tiny little fiefdom, or you've never actually had a job and have spent your whole life expecting people to give you what you want. You're probably the dude who shows up to the fried chicken restaurant and complains that they don't serve sushi.
Don't want to vote? Fucking DON'T. None of the rest of us will give a shit.
So we've gone from "vote blue no matter who" and "Trump is a fascist we need to beat at the polls" to "Nobody will care if you don't vote."
I'll admit it's a refreshing change.
Be fair. Centrists preceded "vote blue no matter who" with "party unity my ass".
And they'll follow up “nobody will care if you don’t vote” with "we were owed your vote and it's your fault we lost."
"Murcuh. Love it or leave it" -- Trumpist bumper sticker
i would believe you were talking about people voting for republicans or people voting for democrats. everyone else is trying to avoid a further slide into fascism.
Nah, the number one reason to vote lately is to prevent Trump from pissing all over democracy. Even Republicans are joining in.
So voting for the uniparty that picked the candidate for you is democracy?
We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic.
Not that that’s any better, but there is a difference between the two
Things Republicans say when defending voter suppression.
That's not blue, it's aqua! Both are blue Karen!
A Republic has a Consitution that separates power away from a single person.
A true Democracy has no means of protecting against a tyrant.
"That's not a dog, it's a German Shepard."
A republic is a kind of democracy.
That's the common response from shitlibs, 'we need Biden to save democracy'
We need someone to stand up to Trump and protect our nation from a Tyrant. So far Joe Biden is the only individual with the titanium balls to do that. So yes, he is the only person standing between our Republic and a Christian Fascist Theocracy.
Biden has spent his entire career helping build the systems that enabled someone like Trump. Biden isnt fighting fascism, he's enabled it to happen
Still better than having Trump in office
Surely you can at least concede that?
When he kept most of Trumps worst plans in place while expanding the police state and ramped up war, no he isnt. They are both slightly different shades of fascism
Sure
Well, that is a take.
[finger-wagging intensifies]
It's gonna be republicans making a protest vote. Democrats are in lock step for once
I hope your confidence is founded.
Trump might be the biggest reason to vote against him, but Republicans have played all their cards and threatened the American people's rights. Even if he is locked up, Biden would still win.
Republicans are all for third party candidates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_election