Many voters are weary about a Biden-Trump rematch in 2024. Third parties hope they can fill the gap
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mainichi.jp
PHOENIX (AP) -- The 2024 presidential election is drawing an unusually robust field of independent, third party and long shot candidates hoping to capitalize on Americans' ambivalence and frustration over a likely rematch between Democrat Joe Biden and Republican Donald Trump.
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Don't vote for a third party. That's just voting for Trump with extra steps.
I think a lot of people thinking about voting third party are going to need reasons TO vote for someone, not reasons to not vote for the other guy. Telling them “it’s just voting for Trump” isn’t going to convince them.
And no, I’m not planning on voting third party. But finger-wagging won’t convince anyone already looking elsewhere.
If a Trump presidency doesn't scare the shit out of them at this point, then they were already looking for excuses to support him, and "I want someone to vote FOR" is just a stupid excuse.
Like, I want a gazillion dollars and a private island, but I also don't smear shit on the walls of the public library when I wake up and don't get those things. Anyone who does, just wanted to smear shit on the walls.
Yup. It is basically the same as how Romney and Cheney are "good republicans" because they want all the same shit trump does but want to pretend they are classier than that
I haven't seen Dark Brandon in a while. Like, months.
I vote FOR Dark Brandon. I'll give Biden my vote over Trump. Those are different things, even if the objective measure looks the same.
I'd like to vote for DB and get him.
Hey man, the dude has enough sense to understand that between the situations in Ukraine and Israel, the world is in a fucked up place at the moment. He's a lifelong statesman, and he's probably telling his more aggressive political advisors to back the hell off so we can figure out what the hell is going on and maybe get our hostages to safety. I respect him for that, and I'm not entirely convinced that being combative or bellicose would be even remotely helpful right now, despite the fact that it would make you feel better in the here and now.
So you don't get Dark Brandon exactly when you want him? And you have to wait....checks notes....a few months? Tough shit. If you have to wait months for him to come out, imagine how many decades you're going to wait for the institutions of this country to recover from this. If "I had to wait months for Dark Brandon" is enough for you to waffle on the gravity of your decision in 2024, then you were already lost before this conversation started.
To be fair to OP, I've seen "Dark Brandon" more as a meme to vex conservatives, used when Biden accomplishes a one of his policies, and particularly when fighting to get student loans forgiven.
This.
Dark Brandon gets policy wins, judges in seats, he moves things. He gets funding for Ukraine.
I haven't seen as much of that.
Israel isn't something I agree as much with him on, but that's not what I was talking about.
It's been a few days so this thread should largely be inert.
I'm not sure who you were replying to because it wasn't me.
I said nothing about Israel. I said I'd give him my vote. Your tone was dismissive to someone who wrote what you wanted to read, but I did not say or imply.
Not interested in a flame war, only discussion. If you respond with hostility or more bad faith, you'll get the last word - I'll not reply.
Joe Biden and Dark Brandon are the same person. You're splitting rhetorical hairs for the sake of argumentation, based largely on a meme, and there's no need for me to substantially respond to what is largely a meaningless assertion. You just refuse to give Biden credit for Dark Brandon's accomplishments, which is insane.
I used a rhetorical device to easily distinguish what excites me about him being president versus what's meh. It worked and works.
Most people know they aren't going to see a DB meme for the Israel topic *that you introduced from... Somewhere? *
He's chalked up wins and I know he'll end up with L's. But I prefer seeing him using his political capital on the economy, green energy, trust busting, courts... The virtuous things Roosevelts did.
You keep implying I said something I didn't and your post history is argumentative. Smart, but too many elbows. This will be my last reply.
You made an assertion that amounts to little more than "I like him when he does some things, but not when he does others."
No shit, sherlock. That's how all of this works. You want a cookie?
Anyone not terrified of a Republican and/or Trump presidency has a shitton of privilege and needs to fucking check it. Cishet, white and men are prominent demographics for "he won't hurt me too badly" and by the time the redcaps come for those not in lockstep it'll be far, far too late.
In other words lots of people have an incredibly childish attitude about voting and are completely prepared to throw a little tantrum in the voting booth even if it means fascists get to take over the whole federal government. I'm becoming pretty convinced that people like that are just incapable of rational decision making.
It’s crazy how people view voting. In life we have so many situations where we look at realistic options and choose the best thing, or even the least bad thing, from those options.
But then with voting people feel like making their vote should be like wishing on a birthday cake. It’s totally irrational, as you say.
If we don't accept that irrational people exist and do what we can to get their votes, we risk the return of Trump.
But it's way more fun to shout at them.
One can't cater to or court the irrational. We can however stop humoring them and giving them undeserved respect. That might lead more rational people to mistakenly consider them.
Republicans keep doing it. They beat Clinton in 2016 by doing it.
Centrist Democrats would rather lose than debase themselves by moving one Planck length to the left.
And it's coming back to bite them in the ass. Further, condoning and catering to those views only speeds up the rotting brain mush that is the current American political psyche. Making it easier for fascist strong men to take over. On undeliverable promises of candy mountains and soda pop swimming pools. As a socialist largely opposed to Democrats neoliberal economic plans. I can still support them, as our best current possible option. But they absolutely do need to promote themselves better.
But Republicans have cornered the market on those who enjoy being lied to at infinitem. And it is simply not a viable tactic for democrats to even try to steal that group from them.
So first it'll never work, and now it works but it's biting Republicans in the ass by... giving them control of the House and the Supreme Court. When you're finally done moving goalposts, please return them.
Yeah, I can support them too. That doesn't mean I need to shut up when I think they're making stupid mistakes, particularly since they're gonna blame me for the results regardless of who I vote for.
Yes, in a long-term scope it will never work. The statements are not contradictory no matter how hard you try to imply that they are.
Love that straw man though. Why that's even non sequitur. The thought process to contort from someone pointing out that they're a socialist and disagree with Democrats. To claiming that critiquing democrats is inappropriate after immediately critiquing democrats. That's such an odd claim that I'm inclined to ask if you were reading off the wrong script.
That said, in the context of presidential elections. One should NEVER consider 3rd party candidates until one of 2 things happen. First past the post voting is replaced with something better. Or said 3rd party has a presence in state or federal legislature of 10% of US states.
Criticize Democrats all you want. I sure do. In the meantime primary them, push them left. But don't split the vote letting the ideal be the enemy of reality when it's important. And it's very important Trump never gets back in. Well important if you like even having an illusion of voting.
So, first you said it can't work. I provided an example of it working. Then you moved the goalposts and said it's biting Republicans in the ass. I pointed out that they gained power, not lost it. And now you've moved them again and said it can't work long term. I didn't say it needs to.
If it's vital to the very continued existence of Democracy that Trump loses this next election, why are we not trying to get every vote we can, even from people who you consider irrational? It certainly never stopped the Democratic Party from moving to the right to court the few remaining irrational moderate Republicans who stay with that party even after what it's become. Why is it always the left that has to think about the short term when we're being screamed at to vote for the candidate who will maybe consider temporarily forestalling fascism because eventually the party will totally start listening to anyone to the left of Manchin? Why does the party never have to think about the short term and court people who it considers beneath their contempt so that they can forestall fascism?
At no point have I suggested voting for a third party. To the contrary, I think the Democratic party should work to get those votes back, because it needs them. But for some reason, that never works because of wherever you decide to put the goalposts this time.
Sure, if you happen to like wild accusations.
If you're at a restaurant and they don't have anything you want, you can go to a different restaurant.
In this case I'm tied to a chair and forced to pick a douche or a shit sandwich while people tell me I'm a bad person for not wanting either.
An apt analogy would be: you are diagnosed with cancer, and you can choose to (a) go through treatment and have a high chance of survival, or (b) let the cancer run its course and die.
Voting third party in this country is equivalent to saying “I’m going to go to a faith healer instead”. You think you’re choosing a more appealing option but you’re actually just choosing option b.
Nah, fuck that. A restaurant doesn't serve cocaine-laced cupcakes that give you an orgasm, yet you still down the bacon cheeseburger because the latter tastes good and the former simply isn't an option. Anyone who walks in and refuses to order from the menu because they can't get a blowjob and a back massage with it, is a fucking moron.
You don't walk in an order from the menu. You're born in the restaurant, tied to a chair, told it's the greatest restaurant ever created, and given two horrible choices.
And then people like you yell at me for pointing this out.
A group of people walks into the restaurant, and you all agree to vote for a family meal so you can eat together. The choices are chicken, beef, or pork. When the rest of the group votes for chicken, and you walk out because you didn't get what you wanted, you are the asshole.
Don't like it? Move the fuck somewhere else and bitch to them about how you still can't get what you want in their electoral system. Your need for instant gratification is destroying this country.
Except I don't agree, and it's not voluntary. I'll be force-fed the shitty dry chicken and can't leave or not eat it. I'd happily sit there and have the salad if they voted to have chicken, but that's not possible here.
I would love to move somewhere else. Except even then the government of the US will have an influence on me. And it costs a ton of money to do that which I don't have, in part because our government is broken as fuck.
And it would be awesome to have literally any gratification after 24 years of voting. Two and a half decades and the planet is still dying, education and health care are still too expensive, and the rich assholes keep getting richer at everyone else's expense.
At some point I had to concede that voting will not provide any gratification at all, let alone instant gratification. I get shitty dry chicken, shitty dry pork chops, or shitty dry beef, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
Oh I'm sorry. I missed the point where someone held you at gunpoint and forced you to vote for a Democrat? Because from where I sit a shitload of them got together and agreed to hold a contest. The winner made it out, and the group threw their support behind the winner against the dude the other team put up. And he won.
Don't like it? Join the fucking Republicans and vote for Trump! Go ahead! He'd love to have your support! Don't like them either? Join the Greens! Don't like them either? Join Cornel West! Don't like him? Join No Labels! Don't like them? Start your own fucking political party and register as a candidate. Don't want to do that?
Then sit the fuck down and let the rest of the adults in the room take care of business while you suck your thumb. There's 80 goddamned million of us who decided Biden's the one who checks most of our boxes, for better or worse, and those of us not stuck in la la land will vote for him again, because we're not too keen on that whole fascist hell-hole scenario thing.
I'm convinced people like you have never sat in a room with more than 4 people and had to come to a consensus decision on anything. I can only assume it's because you've been shoveling movie theater popcorn and were never responsible for making any meaningful decisions, or you're a tyrannical man-child who runs a small business like a tiny little fiefdom, or you've never actually had a job and have spent your whole life expecting people to give you what you want. You're probably the dude who shows up to the fried chicken restaurant and complains that they don't serve sushi.
Don't want to vote? Fucking DON'T. None of the rest of us will give a shit.
So we've gone from "vote blue no matter who" and "Trump is a fascist we need to beat at the polls" to "Nobody will care if you don't vote."
I'll admit it's a refreshing change.
Be fair. Centrists preceded "vote blue no matter who" with "party unity my ass".
And they'll follow up “nobody will care if you don’t vote” with "we were owed your vote and it's your fault we lost."
"Murcuh. Love it or leave it" -- Trumpist bumper sticker
i would believe you were talking about people voting for republicans or people voting for democrats. everyone else is trying to avoid a further slide into fascism.
Nah, the number one reason to vote lately is to prevent Trump from pissing all over democracy. Even Republicans are joining in.
So voting for the uniparty that picked the candidate for you is democracy?
We’re not a democracy, we’re a republic.
Not that that’s any better, but there is a difference between the two
Things Republicans say when defending voter suppression.
That's not blue, it's aqua! Both are blue Karen!
A Republic has a Consitution that separates power away from a single person.
A true Democracy has no means of protecting against a tyrant.
"That's not a dog, it's a German Shepard."
A republic is a kind of democracy.
That's the common response from shitlibs, 'we need Biden to save democracy'
We need someone to stand up to Trump and protect our nation from a Tyrant. So far Joe Biden is the only individual with the titanium balls to do that. So yes, he is the only person standing between our Republic and a Christian Fascist Theocracy.
Biden has spent his entire career helping build the systems that enabled someone like Trump. Biden isnt fighting fascism, he's enabled it to happen
Still better than having Trump in office
Surely you can at least concede that?
When he kept most of Trumps worst plans in place while expanding the police state and ramped up war, no he isnt. They are both slightly different shades of fascism
Sure
Well, that is a take.
[finger-wagging intensifies]
It's gonna be republicans making a protest vote. Democrats are in lock step for once
Trump might be the biggest reason to vote against him, but Republicans have played all their cards and threatened the American people's rights. Even if he is locked up, Biden would still win.
I hope your confidence is founded.
Republicans are all for third party candidates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_election
no, it's not. it's voting against trump by definition.
How about this… don’t take a guy who quietly supports genocide, whose been part of politics longer than I’ve been alive- in fact he’s been a senator for more than twice as long as I’ve been a voter- and make him the canidate.
Because, under your argument, that’s just giving voted to trump!!!
“Vote blue no matter who” is an argument that presupposes a good canidate is in office. Biden is not a good candidate; and the dems need to find somebody else to run him.
We saw the same problem with Hilary. Hilary was not a good canidate and in no way was actually capable of winning. You made the same arguments then as now.
You know Biden is going to lose votes. Why the fuck are you unwilling to consider someone else?
Do whatever the fuck you want to do, bro. When the day comes, you'll have one of several bubbles to fill out, and you'll make the choice you were gonna make anyway. Either you vote strategically for whoever has the best chance to ensure Trump doesn't make it anywhere near the White House, or you vote for whoever makes you feel good, knowing Trump might win. If a second Trump presidency doesn't scare you now, it won't do anything different in a year. If Biden's the nominee, I'll crawl through a mine field covered in broken glass to vote for him. If he's not, I'll do the same for whoever the party nominates to replace him.
Hopefully enough others will vote anyway out of a sense of duty, but non-enthusiastic energy for a candidate will keep some people from going out to vote at all. That is actually a third default choice that takes no energy to do.
I don't know what point you're trying to make. If you told me to swim through a pit of jellyfish to keep Trump away from the White House, I would swim through the fucking jellyfish. Others might chicken out so they can eat cheetos and watch Paw Patrol. Fuck them.
Right beside you, fellow jellyfish-eater. Right beside you.
Others may not, and Biden may lose without them.
I get the worry, but in all honesty if they haven't been absolutely terrified by Trump's rhetoric over the past 7 years, what the fuck else are we supposed to say to convince them? Biden may lose without them. He may also win with them. Your observation seems like an assessment of the wetness of water. It's a statement of fact with little substance.
Ok, just expect the same thing that worked for you to work for everyone.
That's quite literally not what I'm saying, even if you squint REAL hard. Here, I'll repeat the question for those in the back row:
Repeat yourself again. I'm sure that'll work.
I've made this point here in the past. It's a solid point. Wish it didn't lead to down votes.
If a person isn't well off, has poor ballot situations and a kid to tend to... their enthusiasm matters when that next logistical hurdle appears on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November.
Biden is a good candidate. He hasn't been impeached yet, unlike his competitor during this same time in his term; he hasn't started a coup on his own country, and the fact that he's experienced at the job he's applying to is actually a good thing (displayed by the passing of both the CHIPs act and the IRA despite not having complete control of congress). Hilary was actually a significantly better candidate than Trump(very obvious in hindsight for many), but Trump had the advantage of Russian support and the fact that it was uncertain how he would act as president. Once voters found out how Trump is as a president, they turned away from him in droves as evidenced by the fact that he's the first president to lose reelection in 20 years, and Republicans have lost every election since Trump was voted in.
Biden ain't perfect, but man he's a huge upgrade compared to Trump.
…the bar is in hell.
No,these are just some very simple, and objective comparisons that can be made because the alternative is someone literally below the bar that is in hell.
CHIPS ACT, Inflation Reduction Act, supporting unions are some more important things Biden has assisted with.
Way to ignore the rest of his fucking comment, douchebag.
Yeah he's better than a literal facist who is currently making Nazi speeches and has promised to jail all his political opponents. What an incredibly high bar for Biden to stumble over!
Having your party position be "Bite your tongue and vote for our shit candidate to prevent the end of democracy" is not a winning position. It's a terrible strategy guaranteed to lead to less voter turnout.
People voted for Biden during the primary election. We had Bernie, Warren, Pete and others who LOST to Biden so many Democrats feel he was better than others. Biden is a good candidate minus his age, which becomes slightly irrelevant compared to Trump. Biden has been aggressive in talking about how he has been supporting job creation,unions and getting laws passed despite the current GOP. The "Bite your tongue..." Argument is one of many Biden has (and doesn't like to use because it of course doesn't look as great as others)
lets break that down a bit here. your argument is in 3 parts:
Point one applies to literally every one whose not trump; and even if go so far as to be 'not-trump-like', that would include a fair number of Republicans, too. It's not an argument that should be seriously made when deciding who the Democratic candidate should be... because it's pretty much a given.
Point two... that's also an argument against. He's been in the senate for longer than I've been alive. We need change. we don't need the same washed up and tired ideas. Biden's functional policies have only grudgingly changed. for example, if he wanted to legalize weed, he could have. He could have chosen to not open up Willow Project- like he had (indirectly) promised to not do. further, he's only had what? 12 years experience in the excecutive branch? and 8 as second fiddle. his record there is pretty uninspiring, to be honest. You're welcome to disagree.
point three- has Biden accomplished a lot? compared to trump? absolutely. Trump left this country in a shambles and Biden helped pick up the pieces. Helped- he was far from alone in that. and the CHIPS act is largely a no-brainer bill. same goes for the IRA and the infrastructure act. before trump came to office, all of them would have been hailed as modest bits of normalcy. Big bills? sure. Important? absolutely. but nothing worth bragging about.
It should be noted that most VBNW-type people are only pushing the first argument. Which is intellectually dishonest and a scare tactic. Virtually any one capable of being the democratic canidate is not trump, and is a far cry from trumpism. especially the actual progressives. we can talk about what Biden has done, and his policy decisions and where he's propelled the country to. but from where I sit, most of his accomplishments are full of half measures.
Like, he kept the ship from listing more, and he's bailing his hardest, but, the ship ain't righting and it's still leaking.
If we're talking about candidate for president, then easily Biden is the best choice. Why would the DNC even think about not picking Biden as the candidate when Americans voted him in already, and he hasn't shit the bed? Not only that, this is a literal repeat of the election Biden won, against the exact same opponent with the EXACT same platform and message. I should emphasize, Trump LOST his reelection something that hasn't happened since HW Bush in '92 and yet Trump lost because he was so bad. So here we are a president running for reeelection in which there's a history of presidents mainly winning their reelection campaigns. It seems like a no brainer, run Biden unless he messes up soon (since closer to election time, the calculus becomes harder to figure out).
In regards to my point 2, We tried something new with Trump and it was a train wreck. Having experience for a job is always a plus, when compared to someone that knows nothing/very little. I agree Biden isn't exactly my cup of tea (voted for Bernie), but he's not crap compared to other Democrats, and against Trump there's not contest. But we're passed deciding whether we need to change out Biden, that decision point was back during the primary.
Point three, Neither of those bills are modest and especially not with the current political atmosphere. Some R politicians are literally saying that Biden stole the election and has committed impeachable actions, they've been acting and voting with that in mind. The CHIPs act voted with overwhelming republican disapproval. So doesn't seem like a no brainer decision for Republicans which makes it rather surprising that it passed in general. Same thing with the Inflation Reduction Act which is the biggest spending bill for the environment for US and world history. Republicans overwhelming voted against it in the House and Senate as well.
Seriously, compared to any ex-president other than trump, and at best he's "Meh".
Yep. because they're the party of shitting themselves and blaming democrats. the point being, though, that while Biden did a fair amount of heavy lifting there- he didn't do all the heavy lifting. Those bills aren't exclusively biden's win.
Half of the passengers are actively shooting holes into the ship. I don't think there's a human alive that could right it. There is no Ideal Candidate who can fix all these problems in one term - probably not even in two. So I don't get why we're holding Biden to this impossible standard where conservatives create problems faster than anyone can solve them, but then we hold Biden solely responsible for the both the cleanup and the progress we should have made in the meantime, but then we also won't afford him the benefit of "helping." In your words, "he was far from alone in that," well why should he be?
He shouldn’t be alone, obviously.
The question isn’t whether or not some one is ideal. Or if they could right the ship- you’re right that’s basically impossible.
The question is… can some one do a better job? And I think the answer is yes. Now is not the time to play it safe. Hilary was the “safe” play and she lost. And she wasn’t responsible for supporting a genocidal state. (Well she might have done in biden’s shoes,)
Now is the time to come out swinging, because that’s the only way we’re going to get back to where we should be. Biden isn’t going to lead that charge because he’s as conservative as centrist republicans were 20 years ago, and under him… he’s kept us from getting worse (more or less,). But that’s it.
Is this your first election? Incumbency advantage and name recognition. Anyone who understands that and continues to make excuses to not vote for Biden is a Trump supporter. Either intentionally or through sheer privileged ignorance.
missing the point, and instead going straight to the fucking insults. POINT: Biden as a candidate sucks. nobody is saying Biden is actually their preferred candidate. he's deeply unpopular and becoming increasingly so, and yet, you're sitting here blaming people WARNING you about that... instead of maybe shopping around for another candidate- IN THE FREAKING PRIMARIES?
we're winding up for another repeat of 2016, because people like you won't get off their fucking high horse and actually listen to people. and you have the fucking gall to accuse ME of sheer privileged ignorance. Incidentally, I've had his exact same conversation with people, only about Hilary.
Oh and your point about incumbency... yeah, that's increasingly becoming the millstone about his neck, Biden is far from the best, and he could be using what little positive influence he has now for supporting another candidate- LIKE HE FREAKING PROMISED LAST TIME.
Your choice is between President Biden, who has been a good President or the Antichrist. There isn't anyone else running that is worth my time to look at. Your argument should wait until 2028 when Pete Buttigieg is the top candidate. Probably the most intelligent member of the Federal Government right there.
Appeal to fear is a logical fallacy and marketing gimmick.
We can and should do better. All I hear is “You’ll vote the way we tell you, and you’ll like it.”
To which my only response is “Okay, Boomer.”
The Consitution was written to support a two party system. You can change the game without a Consitutional Amendment.