I've been saying for years this was going to be what happens, instead of common sense gun laws they are just going to tax the shit out of it. Which sucks for law abiding responsible gun owners who just want to hunt or defend themselves. This is what happens when one side refuses to come to the negotiating table.
The constitutionality of this tax will come down to how the Roberts Court wants to interpret and apply the 200-year old concept first issued in an opinion during the Marshall Court -- the power to tax is the power to destroy. The government cannot use its authority to levy taxes in a manner which significantly encroaches on the exercise of an enumerated right. I like CA's idea here, but it's all going to come down to implementation.
"As a giant chicken with a southern accent wearing a judges robe, this here tax is unconstitutional on the grounds of me not liking it." -The Roberts court, most likely
Foghorn Leghorn had more integrity and righteousness than the justices on the current SCOTUS
In my heart I genuinely wish that I could argue to the contrary, reality is just dashing my dreams term over term.
There's also this crazy thing called an illegal market which circumvents tax entirely
Tbf, define "refuses." Suppressors, SBS, SBR, 1932; Background Checks, 1968; Full auto ban, 1986; AWB, 1994-2004, expired, little to no measurable impact on crime.
And yet they push and push to get the AWB back despite the fact that those guns make up less than .01% of our gun deaths, why would I think that rounding down that .01% would be "enough" and they wouldn't then progress to handguns which are demonstrably the highest contributing type of arms? Frankly there has been those compromises in the past and yet they continue to push already, it wouldn't make sense for them to stop pushing for the 99.99% once they get the .01%, they just know the "well handguns for protection I understand but those assault weapons are automagical murder machines" crowd won't go for it yet.
National firearm registry. Have all the guns you want, but be accountable for them.
Ehhh no thanks. States like NY and CA which publish a "steal guns from me" list with your name and address are not exactly privacy friendly. I mean, "what if the database got hacked," but also what if CA and NY just publish them as public knowledge without the need to "hack," because they do. Furthermore, there's already 600,000,000 unregistered firearms in ~50% of the populations hands most of whom refuse to register, it's not even effective enough to make a difference. And with that whole AWB thing, they can't really take them all right now, but with a registry they could, and that's why they push for it so hard. Those of us who see this writing on the wall are hesitant to give them the power they seek.
And sucks even more for POC because statistically they don't have the monetary means that white people do. So higher taxes mean less legal guns for POC... Oh, wait, the law is working the way it's intended.
Sure, but you say that guns are a human right like housing or food.
De facto is a right in the USA by the 2A. Try again. I didn't say it was the equivalent of food but it is a right.
But it's not an important "right" in the slightest.
You can have that opinion. I respect it but don't agree. I think the five human necessities (Food, water, clothing, sleep, and shelter) should be human rights over guns but that's not what is actually the law.
This is what happens when one side refuses to come to the negotiating table
Say for the sake of argument, I am President of the NRA and I can persuade my members to agree with whatever comes out of negotiations and you are on the other side, seeking a 'reasonable compromise' on gun ownership and some 'common sense' gun control legislation.
What are you willing to compromise on? What are you willing to give up??
How often do people really defend themselves with lethal force?
Are your criminals weird or something? Do they shoot people at every opportunity?
No, defending property doesn't justify lethal force.
I live on a farm, an hour from town. The sheriff response time is about 45 minutes usually. Meth heads roam around looking for stuff to steal. There's also wild dogs, Coyotes, and also wild pigs that will kill you given the opportunity. I truly hope that I'm never in a position where I have to take a human life. But having a gun is a necessity out here, even if you only have to fire a warning shot to get the crackheads to scatter. I also hunt, not even just for sport, game meat is a not inconsequential portion of our food supply. Wild pigs are a very real concern, they will gore you before you can even blink, and they can run at close to 40 MPH.
I absolutely get hunting rifles we have a lot of them here and as far as I know they are rarely used or crime.
Maybe don’t let those wild pigs in when they ring your doorbell? Even if they huff and puff
Even if they huff and puff
Be careful - there's a correlation between huffing, puffing, and houses being blown down.
I don't get how it's even constitutional. How are even permitting fees constitutional? I could see having the requirements exist, but I don't see how forcing a cost can be.
Does the constitution say that guns need to be free?
I would consider it an infringement, do any other rights include a fee? The only reason some states haven't made it prohibitively expensive is that it is more likely to go to the courts.
Neither side wants to negotiate here. Democrats want bans. Republicans want as much access as possible. Both sides view compromise as a temporary step towards their ultimate goal.
With respect, that's bullshit. Common sense gun reform is on the table almost monthly, after every single mass shooting pretty much... which happen with great regularity. The simplest of measures is treated like a slippery slope to full bans and so nothing at all is allowed to progress. From the outside looking in, a nationwide firearms ban is a bogeyman used to prevent anything happening at all.
The simplest of measures is treated like a slippery slope to full bans
Is it not a first step leading to full bans? Look at this very thread.
Public opinion does not equal policy, and what you're effectively saying is that there is no negotiation possible. Moving an inch could lose you a foot, so no movement is possible.
Don't pretend that it is both sides who refuse to "negotiate", when one side views any change at all as unacceptable compromise.
Moving an inch could lose you a foot, so no movement is possible.
I mean, this is a succinct description. You're saying it as a criticism, but it makes perfect sense.
Great. So everyone will just continue dying or being in fear of dying in mass shootings, regular shootings, and more. This will continue for the rest of time because one side is scared of making a positive change to the situation.
Not scared, just unwilling.
Unwilling due to their fear. Of their donors, of their electorate, of losing control. Pick your poison.
The electorate is unwilling. GOP Representatives are actually representing the wishes of their constituents on this one.
A small subset of the electorate sure, made fearful... by grifters, agenda led news, and arms manufacturers who want to sell them guns.
there's already bans on military hardware sales to civilians. Explain why we should exclude bans on anti aircraft guns from slippery slope hypotheticals
Bringing up bans on military hardware actually supports the slippery slope argument very strongly. You're already thinking about bans.
dang you got me, I don't want rich people to own nukes
No. Same as relaxing gun laws is not the first step leading to no gun laws. That logic is idiotic.
Why? Lots of people are calling for bans.
"Lots of people" are also calling for no gun laws. Anecdotes don't mean shit. Come back when you have some actual numbers on people wanting a full ban and let's see how close to a majority that is.
k
Am Democrat. Do not want bans.
I'm fine with permits after training, safe storage laws, registration, and universal background checks. We also need to do a hell of a lot better in tracking down the source of illegal guns once they are obtained. If it was registered and never reported stolen, they need to question the registered owner.
I'm fine with permits after training
Does it include half of Russia? Because if you have wrong chromosome, you will be trained with weapons even if you actively avoid it.
they need to question the registered owner.
Also what to do if owner is too dead for this?
Did you know it's already a felony to not report a stolen gun? If they track it down that far they'd be more than "questioned."
In California it is, yes. That is not the case everywhere. In fact it is only the case in 11 states.
I was stating my preferences for gun laws. Not sure why anyone would downvote that.
In most states, not just CA. And even most without a "duty to report" lets call it, can and will punish you if an unreported gun is used in a crime. Besides, not reporting a criminal stole your gun a good way to get falsely imprisoned for murder which usually people don't want to do, so even without laws requiring one to do so or not specifically enumerating punishment for not reporting if it is used in a crime, it is still seen as a generally good idea to prevent said false convictions.
I didn't downvote you, can't answer for them.
Can you provide a source?
You'd have to look into state laws and previous cases where a gun purchase being tied to some murder got someone convicted. I'm not going to hunt it down to prove it to you but you're free to spend your time doing so.
I mean a source for most states saying there is a duty to report a stolen firearm and that there is halting for failure to report it. I was able to find a list of states where it is indeed illegal but that is only 11.
What I'm saying is "No I do not have an article that lays out state laws succinctly, you'd have to search the actual .gov pages for the laws themselves, and as I am not your paralegal and not getting paid for my work I am declining to do it."
Or you could just do some thinkin' and realize "Yeah if a gun that I did a NICs check on that got stolen shows up in a murder and I don't have an alibi, I might be a suspect in said murder" isn't actually that wild of a situation. If you can't see how it could be likely though, like I said, you're free to search yourself.
Don't make a claim if you aren't willing to back it up with a source.
The source is there in the statutes laid out by the state, I'm unwilling to aggregate it for you, as I have a whole other job I'm doing that actually pays me. You are free to look em up yourself.
Don't make a claim if you aren't willing to back it up with a source.
So basically you made a claim that you cannot back up. It's not my job to research claims you make.
Your scenario makes me think you watch waaaay too many cop shows. The probability that a gun is used in a murder is pretty low. The probability that police look into where the gun actually came from is extremely low. Otherwise straw purchasing would not be a thing which it very much is.
The probability that a gun is used in a murder is pretty low
Oh I thought we were talking about the US where guns are the leading weapon used in murder, my mistake.
Probability that a murder is done by a gun != the probability that a specific gun is used to murder someone. I hope you are not naive enough to think that every illegal gun is used to murder people.
I've been saying for years this was going to be what happens, instead of common sense gun laws they are just going to tax the shit out of it. Which sucks for law abiding responsible gun owners who just want to hunt or defend themselves. This is what happens when one side refuses to come to the negotiating table.
The constitutionality of this tax will come down to how the Roberts Court wants to interpret and apply the 200-year old concept first issued in an opinion during the Marshall Court -- the power to tax is the power to destroy. The government cannot use its authority to levy taxes in a manner which significantly encroaches on the exercise of an enumerated right. I like CA's idea here, but it's all going to come down to implementation.
"As a giant chicken with a southern accent wearing a judges robe, this here tax is unconstitutional on the grounds of me not liking it." -The Roberts court, most likely
Foghorn Leghorn had more integrity and righteousness than the justices on the current SCOTUS
In my heart I genuinely wish that I could argue to the contrary, reality is just dashing my dreams term over term.
There's also this crazy thing called an illegal market which circumvents tax entirely
Tbf, define "refuses." Suppressors, SBS, SBR, 1932; Background Checks, 1968; Full auto ban, 1986; AWB, 1994-2004, expired, little to no measurable impact on crime.
And yet they push and push to get the AWB back despite the fact that those guns make up less than .01% of our gun deaths, why would I think that rounding down that .01% would be "enough" and they wouldn't then progress to handguns which are demonstrably the highest contributing type of arms? Frankly there has been those compromises in the past and yet they continue to push already, it wouldn't make sense for them to stop pushing for the 99.99% once they get the .01%, they just know the "well handguns for protection I understand but those assault weapons are automagical murder machines" crowd won't go for it yet.
National firearm registry. Have all the guns you want, but be accountable for them.
Ehhh no thanks. States like NY and CA which publish a "steal guns from me" list with your name and address are not exactly privacy friendly. I mean, "what if the database got hacked," but also what if CA and NY just publish them as public knowledge without the need to "hack," because they do. Furthermore, there's already 600,000,000 unregistered firearms in ~50% of the populations hands most of whom refuse to register, it's not even effective enough to make a difference. And with that whole AWB thing, they can't really take them all right now, but with a registry they could, and that's why they push for it so hard. Those of us who see this writing on the wall are hesitant to give them the power they seek.
And sucks even more for POC because statistically they don't have the monetary means that white people do. So higher taxes mean less legal guns for POC... Oh, wait, the law is working the way it's intended.
Sure, but you say that guns are a human right like housing or food.
No one needs a gun.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/las-vegas-woman-shoots-man-after-six-months-of-stalking/
De facto is a right in the USA by the 2A. Try again. I didn't say it was the equivalent of food but it is a right.
But it's not an important "right" in the slightest.
You can have that opinion. I respect it but don't agree. I think the five human necessities (Food, water, clothing, sleep, and shelter) should be human rights over guns but that's not what is actually the law.
Say for the sake of argument, I am President of the NRA and I can persuade my members to agree with whatever comes out of negotiations and you are on the other side, seeking a 'reasonable compromise' on gun ownership and some 'common sense' gun control legislation.
What are you willing to compromise on? What are you willing to give up??
How often do people really defend themselves with lethal force?
Are your criminals weird or something? Do they shoot people at every opportunity?
No, defending property doesn't justify lethal force.
I live on a farm, an hour from town. The sheriff response time is about 45 minutes usually. Meth heads roam around looking for stuff to steal. There's also wild dogs, Coyotes, and also wild pigs that will kill you given the opportunity. I truly hope that I'm never in a position where I have to take a human life. But having a gun is a necessity out here, even if you only have to fire a warning shot to get the crackheads to scatter. I also hunt, not even just for sport, game meat is a not inconsequential portion of our food supply. Wild pigs are a very real concern, they will gore you before you can even blink, and they can run at close to 40 MPH.
I absolutely get hunting rifles we have a lot of them here and as far as I know they are rarely used or crime.
Maybe don’t let those wild pigs in when they ring your doorbell? Even if they huff and puff
Be careful - there's a correlation between huffing, puffing, and houses being blown down.
I don't get how it's even constitutional. How are even permitting fees constitutional? I could see having the requirements exist, but I don't see how forcing a cost can be.
Does the constitution say that guns need to be free?
I would consider it an infringement, do any other rights include a fee? The only reason some states haven't made it prohibitively expensive is that it is more likely to go to the courts.
Neither side wants to negotiate here. Democrats want bans. Republicans want as much access as possible. Both sides view compromise as a temporary step towards their ultimate goal.
With respect, that's bullshit. Common sense gun reform is on the table almost monthly, after every single mass shooting pretty much... which happen with great regularity. The simplest of measures is treated like a slippery slope to full bans and so nothing at all is allowed to progress. From the outside looking in, a nationwide firearms ban is a bogeyman used to prevent anything happening at all.
Is it not a first step leading to full bans? Look at this very thread.
Public opinion does not equal policy, and what you're effectively saying is that there is no negotiation possible. Moving an inch could lose you a foot, so no movement is possible.
Don't pretend that it is both sides who refuse to "negotiate", when one side views any change at all as unacceptable compromise.
I mean, this is a succinct description. You're saying it as a criticism, but it makes perfect sense.
Great. So everyone will just continue dying or being in fear of dying in mass shootings, regular shootings, and more. This will continue for the rest of time because one side is scared of making a positive change to the situation.
Not scared, just unwilling.
Unwilling due to their fear. Of their donors, of their electorate, of losing control. Pick your poison.
The electorate is unwilling. GOP Representatives are actually representing the wishes of their constituents on this one.
A small subset of the electorate sure, made fearful... by grifters, agenda led news, and arms manufacturers who want to sell them guns.
there's already bans on military hardware sales to civilians. Explain why we should exclude bans on anti aircraft guns from slippery slope hypotheticals
Bringing up bans on military hardware actually supports the slippery slope argument very strongly. You're already thinking about bans.
dang you got me, I don't want rich people to own nukes
No. Same as relaxing gun laws is not the first step leading to no gun laws. That logic is idiotic.
Why? Lots of people are calling for bans.
"Lots of people" are also calling for no gun laws. Anecdotes don't mean shit. Come back when you have some actual numbers on people wanting a full ban and let's see how close to a majority that is.
k
Am Democrat. Do not want bans.
I'm fine with permits after training, safe storage laws, registration, and universal background checks. We also need to do a hell of a lot better in tracking down the source of illegal guns once they are obtained. If it was registered and never reported stolen, they need to question the registered owner.
Does it include half of Russia? Because if you have wrong chromosome, you will be trained with weapons even if you actively avoid it.
Also what to do if owner is too dead for this?
Did you know it's already a felony to not report a stolen gun? If they track it down that far they'd be more than "questioned."
In California it is, yes. That is not the case everywhere. In fact it is only the case in 11 states.
https://www.thetrace.org/2017/11/stolen-guns-reporting-requirements/
I was stating my preferences for gun laws. Not sure why anyone would downvote that.
In most states, not just CA. And even most without a "duty to report" lets call it, can and will punish you if an unreported gun is used in a crime. Besides, not reporting a criminal stole your gun a good way to get falsely imprisoned for murder which usually people don't want to do, so even without laws requiring one to do so or not specifically enumerating punishment for not reporting if it is used in a crime, it is still seen as a generally good idea to prevent said false convictions.
I didn't downvote you, can't answer for them.
Can you provide a source?
You'd have to look into state laws and previous cases where a gun purchase being tied to some murder got someone convicted. I'm not going to hunt it down to prove it to you but you're free to spend your time doing so.
I mean a source for most states saying there is a duty to report a stolen firearm and that there is halting for failure to report it. I was able to find a list of states where it is indeed illegal but that is only 11.
What I'm saying is "No I do not have an article that lays out state laws succinctly, you'd have to search the actual .gov pages for the laws themselves, and as I am not your paralegal and not getting paid for my work I am declining to do it."
Or you could just do some thinkin' and realize "Yeah if a gun that I did a NICs check on that got stolen shows up in a murder and I don't have an alibi, I might be a suspect in said murder" isn't actually that wild of a situation. If you can't see how it could be likely though, like I said, you're free to search yourself.
Don't make a claim if you aren't willing to back it up with a source.
The source is there in the statutes laid out by the state, I'm unwilling to aggregate it for you, as I have a whole other job I'm doing that actually pays me. You are free to look em up yourself.
Don't make a claim if you aren't willing to back it up with a source.
So basically you made a claim that you cannot back up. It's not my job to research claims you make.
Your scenario makes me think you watch waaaay too many cop shows. The probability that a gun is used in a murder is pretty low. The probability that police look into where the gun actually came from is extremely low. Otherwise straw purchasing would not be a thing which it very much is.
Oh I thought we were talking about the US where guns are the leading weapon used in murder, my mistake.
Probability that a murder is done by a gun != the probability that a specific gun is used to murder someone. I hope you are not naive enough to think that every illegal gun is used to murder people.
There are not two sides here. Try ten, or twenty, or some large number.
We are not talking about sane world.