We have regulations for just about anything but not gender in Olympics?
Olympic committee should put forward specific classification rules for woman and man in a binary sporting event.
It's a Olympic committee problem not an athlete problem. Don't let them sweep this issue under the rug.
Except even if they had regulations it would not have changed anything since she is a ciswoman
Imagine a corrupt state really wants gold. Why wouldn't they register a whole batch of males as female (or duplicate register as both sexes) wait 20 years then clean up the women's events?
so, the heart of your argument itself is sexist. Your argument is, basically, that a man is better than a woman at sports, just because he's a man.
Athletes at this level are insanely talented and fit. Some are even genetic anomalies, which explain why they can be so good at their sport. Simone biles is really small, which is why she's so good at flipping.
A female boxer at this level would decimate a male boxer who isn't genetically selected for and who hasn't trained his whole life to get to that level. Being male doesn't make one good at sports.
On the scale youre talking about, the government would be complicit in widescale corruption to rig a single event in an event where there's no money involved for the winner, requiring several hundred people to be the athletes who might be good enough to go to the event, boatloads of money to train them, and even then, they might get one through the event if the athlete isn't injured. All for what reward? A single relatively worthless gold medal?
Your argument is, basically, that a man is better than a woman at sports, just because he's a man.
No. Women should always have the option to compete against men, (and prove they are better), if they chose to. But just look at world records if you need concrete proof that males have an advantage.
Many sports there is no physical advantage and some (e.g. climbing) women have the advantage.
On the scale youre talking about, the government would be complicit in widescale corruption to rig a single event in an event where there's no money involved for the winner,
Not a single event, this could be done for multiple events, even without the athlete's knowledge. For the first decade only a few record keepers need to be in the conspiracy.
All for what reward? A single relatively worthless gold medal?
Why? You should ask cold war Russia.
What exactly do you think the Soviet Union achieved by winning a bunch of medals?
The person you are responding seems uninformed on the topic of Imane and in spreading misinform.
However, Russia does have a sordid history messing with international sports. Look up all the scandals in figure skating and also last year Olympics. I'm not sure why they do it. I think it has to do with projecting power on the world stage.
I'm steering clear of the topic of Imane.
No you aren't. You're arguing about trans women athletes competing in the Olympics against cis women in a thread specifically about Imane.
I'm arguing about the classification rules of the Olympic committee because the current rules are not sufficiently clear and have caused needless distress to at least two gold medal winners.
No, the rules are very clear. It's just right wing nutcases making up shit just to stir up trouble. The rules are there, and they've been in place long before this particular Olympic event.
These definitions are not medically certified nor standardised across countries.
So what?
Propaganda and ideological superiority of communism.
Cold war rivalry. Proxy battle.
National pride and unity.
International prestige.
So nothing important then.
Yes, you've definitely come up with a plausible reason why a Muslim country would be okay with a transgender athlete. Algeria is just desperate for international prestige. It will definitely do something or other.
Yes, you've definitely come up with a plausible reason why a Muslim country would be okay with a transgender athlete.
Have I? Strange. I wasn't asked that question.
I love how your whole conversation here is like "I'm not saying Khelif isn't a woman and shouldn't compete, but someone who is a person who boxes women that I have not named, but have decided is not a woman, should not compete with women. But I'm not saying it's Khelif."
My point is to reduce future similar incidents. Not discuss any specific case. As it is, this discussion is doomed to be repeated.
Bullshit.
What do you think they would achieve in any practical way by winning a bunch of gold medals?
It's the Olympics, not trade negotiations.
It's estimated that the value of a gold medal is around $1 million in terms of economic impact, considering factors like increased tourism, sponsorship, and national pride.
Please do provide actual evidence for that claim. Specifically for a gold medal in women's boxing.
I found that statistic on Bing. You can too.
I'm not specifically discussing women's boxing.
Yes, you can find all kinds of fake statistics on Bing. That's how the internet works. Let's see the source of yours.
We should expect Rules and regulations regarding a cis woman. The Olympic committee should either allow them as is or lay out specific rules.
Decisions cannot be adhoc.
You realize that she's a cis woman, right? Right?
Or did you take the word from people on YouTube who talk about everything in a certain way?
It's so fucking ridiculous to me that people are suggesting fucking Algeria has a trans athlete. Where next, Saudi Arabia?
They have a specific rule: if your birth certificate and passport say you're a woman, you get to compete as one.
Except she was born a woman, raised as a girl and is a woman according to her passport from a country where being trans is illegal. So your argument is moot.
This the Olympics. What they do in their country is their problem.
If trans was illegal in that country why would they want to highlight that issue by selecting that athlete. Makes no sense.
Because she's not trans
Right. I was replying to a comment about trans athletes.
I think you might have come full circle here. Being trans is her country is illegal. Why would such a country send a trans athlete? Because she isn't trans.
You aren't talking about trans athletes, you're talking about a woman who won a sport, and was demonized for being trans, and she isn't even trans. The right wing had to make this shit up just so they would have a boogie man to be scared of.
She isn't trans, what part of this are you having trouble with?
Hmmm maybe she's not trans? Hmm?
She's a cis woman.
Isn't a little weird to focus on someone else's genitals?
Like really weird? Creepy even? Are you weird too?
9If that wiki page is correct, then chromosome testing should be done. Was the testing done? What were the results? If it was not done, then why not?
How is women fighting women in a sport discriminatory against women?
I'm starting to think that you need some testing.......
feeling is mutual.
Feelings are great, let me know when you can think critically instead of regurgitate nonsense and repeat disproven or intentional vagueries.
So was it critical thinking that made you say that I needed testing? Obviously critical thinking is not your forte.
Are you against regulations? That's fine. I happen to support regulations.
What "disproven or intentional vagueries" have I said?
You stated that this person was intersex, and that was a valid reason for her disqualification up and down this thread, before the mods intervened of course.
Continuing to believe in disproven theories, or concepts without imperical evidence, is clearly a logical falicy at best, or you are intentionally spreading misinformation because you are a Russian bot at worst.
Give the above assertions, yes, mental health, intelligence, and a prescription of "touching grass" at a minimum. Are you an athlete? Do you compete at an Olympic level? No? Then how does that impact you in any way shape or form? Did you ever watch the Olympics to have any kind of investment? Honestly that's all a little weird.
There are very simple regulations. You just don't like the regulations. She was identified as biologically female at birth. It says so on her birth certificate. Her passport says she's a woman. Those are the regulations whether you like them or not.
Chromosome testing is still discrimination against intersex athletes.
Winding back to my first post. The Olympic committee has to decide.
Decisions shouldn't be adhoc.
Athletes spend time and effort. They shouldn't have to prepare for a competition where they will be expelled.
What makes you think these decisions were "ad hoc?"
What do you think ad hoc means? And what part of "we checked out this athelete and she met all of our criteria to compete in womans' boxing" don't you get?
What failing do you think the IOC commited in allowing a cis woman to compete in womens' boxing?
Why should testing be done over some allegation by an organization that's not recognized by the IOC?
How do you not know that chromosomes don't tell anything near to the whole story? You can be XX and look biologically male your whole life or XY and the opposite.
I hate it when people think something as ridiculously complex as the human genome can be summed up so simply.
Yo mean xxy?
No, I do not. Like I said, it is nowhere near that simple. It’s like you didn’t even read that far down my post.
What issue is that exactly?
Really living up to your name.
Injecting testosterone is considered doping. So whatever their gender is, it's not allowed. This makes trans people by default not eligible, regardless of what gender they're playing as.
My personal opinion is that trans people should just get their own part of the Olympics. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to keep it fair.
Whatever that decision is the Olympic committee should expand rules and regulations to cover edge cases.
Decisions shouldn't be adhoc.
It's not like we didn't know about hunan genetic makeup before this Olympics.
Genitals genitals show me your genitals!
Injecting performance enhancing substances like testosterone is not allowed. So the rule is already there. The reason for injecting them is irrelevant and not part of the rule. If we can simply use a counter argument to nullify a rule that doesn't really make it a rule anymore. We should however add possible edge cases in the future, but that doesn't mean that we should be using opinions in current rulings before finding something that suits everybody.
Keep in mind that I'm not claiming anything about Imane Khelif.
Make it 2 classes, open and restricted.
Clear rules on who is allowed in the restricted class.
Edit People down voting, do you not want a restricted class?
When it's a cis woman you're worried about against other cis women? No? I'm starting to think that we should have civics tests to use the Internet.....
It seems that, going forward, a stricter definition and (private and respectful) testing of cis categorisation would reduce the pain and suffering (from armchair commentators like ourselves) of all future competitors at top levels of womens sports.
Umm is the person in the correct weight class for this event? Yes. Okay next!
For the "men's" event, yes. Weight is the only restriction. Women should be able to fight in the men's event if they qualify.
For the women's classification there must be a clear line drawn somewhere between "has given birth" and "changed their name to Sue".
(I have no preference exactly where that line is drawn)
The youngest Olympian this year is a 12-year-old from China competing as a skateboarder. The youngest ever was an 11-year-old who competed in gymnastics.
Should we be letting those young girls know whether or not they count as girls through some sort of unspecified genetic test?
Why do you think women need to be protected by having to prove they're women? Do you really not get that tons of women would be discouraged from competing if they felt they had to satisfy some white knight's genetic criteria?
Should we be letting those young girls know whether or not they count as girls through some sort of unspecified genetic test?
If there is no gender advantage there is no need.
Do you want to go further and say for skateboarding and gymnastics there should be no segregation?
Women do need segregation, for saftey more than anything. There needs to be a clear line otherwise these arguments will continue to occur.
If there is no gender advantage there is no need.
So there's no need?
Do you want to go further and say for skateboarding and gymnastics there should be no segregation?
So there is a need?
Women do need segregation, for saftey more than anything.
Women do not need your protection, nor have they asked for it.
Of course woman need the protection of their sporting governing bodies. That's their job.
You think women need protection and men don't. That's the issue here. You're being a white knight.
Governing bodies also provide safety regulations for men.
And yet you have never once mentioned how men need this same sort of protection. In fact, you've made it very clear that women need your protection.
That is an excellent question that the Olympic committee should answer clearly and definitively.
You are the one claiming she's not a real woman. It's up to you to define it.
They already have an answer, you just don't like it.
I've not claimed anything about any individual.
I'm saying that a male/female checkbox on a passport is an inadequate test for a top level sporting event. The Olympic Committee need a better answer to avoid similar discussions in the future.
Fine. What is the test they should use? You don't like their criteria, so what should the criteria be?
The test should be repeatable, definitive and standardised.
It should also satisfy the majority of members of that governing body.
This is the final time I will ask you, because you are now setting off my troll alarm: What should the criteria be? You have a lot of very strong opinions unless anyone challenges them, and then you try to weasel out of it.
You are also very much skirting the trans bigotry line and I'm going to keep letting you do that if you wish to remain here.
Not for me to decide the criteria.
There must be a line somewhere, and that line needs to be much more consistent, clearer and well defined than a field on a passport.
And you’re done.
I'm saying that a male/female checkbox on a passport is an inadequate test for a top level sporting event.
Weirdly, the only people who seem to find it inadequate are the people who just can't accept Ms. Khelif is a woman who can box other women.
It is inadequate because what is written on a piece of paper can be different in reality.
An intersex person is unlikely to have that listed on their passport.
Again, it seems like the only people who find it inadequate are people like you who think women need the protection of people with penises from other people with penises when this is not something most female athletes want.
But hey, you know what's best for women, right? They shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about it.
I think you are projecting.
See my other comment about me thinking you're a troll. This is not helping.
We have regulations for just about anything but not gender in Olympics?
Olympic committee should put forward specific classification rules for woman and man in a binary sporting event.
It's a Olympic committee problem not an athlete problem. Don't let them sweep this issue under the rug.
Except even if they had regulations it would not have changed anything since she is a ciswoman
Imagine a corrupt state really wants gold. Why wouldn't they register a whole batch of males as female (or duplicate register as both sexes) wait 20 years then clean up the women's events?
so, the heart of your argument itself is sexist. Your argument is, basically, that a man is better than a woman at sports, just because he's a man. Athletes at this level are insanely talented and fit. Some are even genetic anomalies, which explain why they can be so good at their sport. Simone biles is really small, which is why she's so good at flipping.
A female boxer at this level would decimate a male boxer who isn't genetically selected for and who hasn't trained his whole life to get to that level. Being male doesn't make one good at sports.
On the scale youre talking about, the government would be complicit in widescale corruption to rig a single event in an event where there's no money involved for the winner, requiring several hundred people to be the athletes who might be good enough to go to the event, boatloads of money to train them, and even then, they might get one through the event if the athlete isn't injured. All for what reward? A single relatively worthless gold medal?
No. Women should always have the option to compete against men, (and prove they are better), if they chose to. But just look at world records if you need concrete proof that males have an advantage.
Many sports there is no physical advantage and some (e.g. climbing) women have the advantage.
Not a single event, this could be done for multiple events, even without the athlete's knowledge. For the first decade only a few record keepers need to be in the conspiracy.
Why? You should ask cold war Russia.
What exactly do you think the Soviet Union achieved by winning a bunch of medals?
The person you are responding seems uninformed on the topic of Imane and in spreading misinform.
However, Russia does have a sordid history messing with international sports. Look up all the scandals in figure skating and also last year Olympics. I'm not sure why they do it. I think it has to do with projecting power on the world stage.
I'm steering clear of the topic of Imane.
No you aren't. You're arguing about trans women athletes competing in the Olympics against cis women in a thread specifically about Imane.
I'm arguing about the classification rules of the Olympic committee because the current rules are not sufficiently clear and have caused needless distress to at least two gold medal winners.
No, the rules are very clear. It's just right wing nutcases making up shit just to stir up trouble. The rules are there, and they've been in place long before this particular Olympic event.
"The gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport"
These definitions are not medically certified nor standardised across countries.
So what?
Propaganda and ideological superiority of communism.
Cold war rivalry. Proxy battle.
National pride and unity.
International prestige.
So nothing important then.
Yes, you've definitely come up with a plausible reason why a Muslim country would be okay with a transgender athlete. Algeria is just desperate for international prestige. It will definitely do something or other.
Have I? Strange. I wasn't asked that question.
I love how your whole conversation here is like "I'm not saying Khelif isn't a woman and shouldn't compete, but someone who is a person who boxes women that I have not named, but have decided is not a woman, should not compete with women. But I'm not saying it's Khelif."
My point is to reduce future similar incidents. Not discuss any specific case. As it is, this discussion is doomed to be repeated.
Bullshit.
What do you think they would achieve in any practical way by winning a bunch of gold medals?
It's the Olympics, not trade negotiations.
It's estimated that the value of a gold medal is around $1 million in terms of economic impact, considering factors like increased tourism, sponsorship, and national pride.
Please do provide actual evidence for that claim. Specifically for a gold medal in women's boxing.
I found that statistic on Bing. You can too.
I'm not specifically discussing women's boxing.
Yes, you can find all kinds of fake statistics on Bing. That's how the internet works. Let's see the source of yours.
That's a pathetically tiny amount of capital for a state.
You are asking about the total benefits of sending athletes to the Olympics, not the statistical weighing of gold medals in a regression model.
What the the absolute fuck are you talking about? This is some deranged paranoid nonsense.
Search the soviet unions athletic history for examples.
We should expect Rules and regulations regarding a cis woman. The Olympic committee should either allow them as is or lay out specific rules. Decisions cannot be adhoc.
You realize that she's a cis woman, right? Right?
Or did you take the word from people on YouTube who talk about everything in a certain way?
It's so fucking ridiculous to me that people are suggesting fucking Algeria has a trans athlete. Where next, Saudi Arabia?
They have a specific rule: if your birth certificate and passport say you're a woman, you get to compete as one.
What rule do you think they should be using?
Except she was born a woman, raised as a girl and is a woman according to her passport from a country where being trans is illegal. So your argument is moot.
This the Olympics. What they do in their country is their problem. If trans was illegal in that country why would they want to highlight that issue by selecting that athlete. Makes no sense.
Because she's not trans
Right. I was replying to a comment about trans athletes.
I think you might have come full circle here. Being trans is her country is illegal. Why would such a country send a trans athlete? Because she isn't trans.
You aren't talking about trans athletes, you're talking about a woman who won a sport, and was demonized for being trans, and she isn't even trans. The right wing had to make this shit up just so they would have a boogie man to be scared of.
She isn't trans, what part of this are you having trouble with?
Hmmm maybe she's not trans? Hmm?
She's a cis woman.
Isn't a little weird to focus on someone else's genitals?
Like really weird? Creepy even? Are you weird too?
We already have regulations about gender in the Olympics. They're discriminatory against transgender and intersex athletes, and disproportionately affect female athletes of color.
9If that wiki page is correct, then chromosome testing should be done. Was the testing done? What were the results? If it was not done, then why not?
How is women fighting women in a sport discriminatory against women?
I'm starting to think that you need some testing.......
feeling is mutual.
Feelings are great, let me know when you can think critically instead of regurgitate nonsense and repeat disproven or intentional vagueries.
So was it critical thinking that made you say that I needed testing? Obviously critical thinking is not your forte.
Are you against regulations? That's fine. I happen to support regulations.
What "disproven or intentional vagueries" have I said?
You stated that this person was intersex, and that was a valid reason for her disqualification up and down this thread, before the mods intervened of course.
Continuing to believe in disproven theories, or concepts without imperical evidence, is clearly a logical falicy at best, or you are intentionally spreading misinformation because you are a Russian bot at worst.
Give the above assertions, yes, mental health, intelligence, and a prescription of "touching grass" at a minimum. Are you an athlete? Do you compete at an Olympic level? No? Then how does that impact you in any way shape or form? Did you ever watch the Olympics to have any kind of investment? Honestly that's all a little weird.
There are very simple regulations. You just don't like the regulations. She was identified as biologically female at birth. It says so on her birth certificate. Her passport says she's a woman. Those are the regulations whether you like them or not.
Chromosome testing is still discrimination against intersex athletes.
Winding back to my first post. The Olympic committee has to decide. Decisions shouldn't be adhoc.
Athletes spend time and effort. They shouldn't have to prepare for a competition where they will be expelled.
What makes you think these decisions were "ad hoc?"
What do you think ad hoc means? And what part of "we checked out this athelete and she met all of our criteria to compete in womans' boxing" don't you get?
What failing do you think the IOC commited in allowing a cis woman to compete in womens' boxing?
Why should testing be done over some allegation by an organization that's not recognized by the IOC?
How do you not know that chromosomes don't tell anything near to the whole story? You can be XX and look biologically male your whole life or XY and the opposite.
I hate it when people think something as ridiculously complex as the human genome can be summed up so simply.
Yo mean xxy?
No, I do not. Like I said, it is nowhere near that simple. It’s like you didn’t even read that far down my post.
What issue is that exactly?
Really living up to your name.
Injecting testosterone is considered doping. So whatever their gender is, it's not allowed. This makes trans people by default not eligible, regardless of what gender they're playing as.
Have a look at this list: https://www.antidopingdatabase.com/facts/prohibited-list
My personal opinion is that trans people should just get their own part of the Olympics. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to keep it fair.
Whatever that decision is the Olympic committee should expand rules and regulations to cover edge cases. Decisions shouldn't be adhoc. It's not like we didn't know about hunan genetic makeup before this Olympics.
Genitals genitals show me your genitals!
Injecting performance enhancing substances like testosterone is not allowed. So the rule is already there. The reason for injecting them is irrelevant and not part of the rule. If we can simply use a counter argument to nullify a rule that doesn't really make it a rule anymore. We should however add possible edge cases in the future, but that doesn't mean that we should be using opinions in current rulings before finding something that suits everybody.
Keep in mind that I'm not claiming anything about Imane Khelif.
Make it 2 classes, open and restricted.
Clear rules on who is allowed in the restricted class.
Edit People down voting, do you not want a restricted class?
When it's a cis woman you're worried about against other cis women? No? I'm starting to think that we should have civics tests to use the Internet.....
It seems that, going forward, a stricter definition and (private and respectful) testing of cis categorisation would reduce the pain and suffering (from armchair commentators like ourselves) of all future competitors at top levels of womens sports.
Umm is the person in the correct weight class for this event? Yes. Okay next!
For the "men's" event, yes. Weight is the only restriction. Women should be able to fight in the men's event if they qualify.
For the women's classification there must be a clear line drawn somewhere between "has given birth" and "changed their name to Sue".
(I have no preference exactly where that line is drawn)
The youngest Olympian this year is a 12-year-old from China competing as a skateboarder. The youngest ever was an 11-year-old who competed in gymnastics.
Should we be letting those young girls know whether or not they count as girls through some sort of unspecified genetic test?
Why do you think women need to be protected by having to prove they're women? Do you really not get that tons of women would be discouraged from competing if they felt they had to satisfy some white knight's genetic criteria?
If there is no gender advantage there is no need.
Do you want to go further and say for skateboarding and gymnastics there should be no segregation?
Women do need segregation, for saftey more than anything. There needs to be a clear line otherwise these arguments will continue to occur.
So there's no need?
So there is a need?
Women do not need your protection, nor have they asked for it.
Of course woman need the protection of their sporting governing bodies. That's their job.
You think women need protection and men don't. That's the issue here. You're being a white knight.
Governing bodies also provide safety regulations for men.
And yet you have never once mentioned how men need this same sort of protection. In fact, you've made it very clear that women need your protection.
What convinced you of this?
Do tell us what makes a woman a real woman.
That is an excellent question that the Olympic committee should answer clearly and definitively.
You are the one claiming she's not a real woman. It's up to you to define it.
They already have an answer, you just don't like it.
I've not claimed anything about any individual.
I'm saying that a male/female checkbox on a passport is an inadequate test for a top level sporting event. The Olympic Committee need a better answer to avoid similar discussions in the future.
Fine. What is the test they should use? You don't like their criteria, so what should the criteria be?
The test should be repeatable, definitive and standardised.
It should also satisfy the majority of members of that governing body.
This is the final time I will ask you, because you are now setting off my troll alarm: What should the criteria be? You have a lot of very strong opinions unless anyone challenges them, and then you try to weasel out of it.
You are also very much skirting the trans bigotry line and I'm going to keep letting you do that if you wish to remain here.
Not for me to decide the criteria.
There must be a line somewhere, and that line needs to be much more consistent, clearer and well defined than a field on a passport.
And you’re done.
Why does there need to be a test?
Whatever the decision is the Olympic committee should make it and not run away from contested issues.
What is contested about a cis woman boxer boxing cis women?
They made it.
Not really. "the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport." is inadequate. For example this definition doesn't cover intersex cases or state sponsored fraud.
Weirdly, the only people who seem to find it inadequate are the people who just can't accept Ms. Khelif is a woman who can box other women.
It is inadequate because what is written on a piece of paper can be different in reality.
An intersex person is unlikely to have that listed on their passport.
Again, it seems like the only people who find it inadequate are people like you who think women need the protection of people with penises from other people with penises when this is not something most female athletes want.
But hey, you know what's best for women, right? They shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about it.
I think you are projecting.
See my other comment about me thinking you're a troll. This is not helping.