As The Intercept pointed out this week, this is Israel's 9/11 in that it is a horrific event they didn't see coming, but when you stop to look at the powder keg they created, they absolutely should have.
And just like 9/11, they were warned of the attack weeks in advance but were still woefully unprepared to protect their citizens.
I'm worried that they DID know, and are using this as an excuse to further their agenda against Palestinians.
With the Netanyahu government, that's the more plausible explanation.
Well, it worked in the US
/s
Well, it really did work in the US. This is literally what happened at Pearl Harbor.
Roosevelt knew the attack was coming, very much so, our intelligence was good. But he needed the attack to happen, so he let it happen.
At the time, Europe was at war and our allies desperately needed help, but the US had been dragging it's heels about getting involved for years. Roosevelt wanted to enter the war and support our allies, but congress just didn't want to make the official declaration of war. But after the attack on Pearl harbor, that declaration came in short order, just as Roosevelt knew it would.
This is untrue. This is a false conspiracy theory that people keep repeating that has no facts to back it up. This one bugs me because my grandfather was in the merchant Marines and was stationed there when this happened. People parroting that untrue fact drove him bonkers.
This is untrue
Which part?
Did the people stationed there get warned? Did merchant Marines have access to top brass intelligence reports? Did Roosevelt have a different motivation? Did Pearl Harbor not happen...?
The whole "Rosevelt knew claim". It is one of those false clames that gets repeated so often.
The problem with claiming the opposite, are things like Patton's pretty much spot on prediction of the attack, the fact that intelligence at the time was routed through Washington, with capability to break the Japanese codes, or the still not declassified documents relating some pre-attack intercepts.
It all suggests that Roosevelt, and/or his staff, had all the pieces to figure out what was going to happen. Whether they didn't, or did and decided to do nothing, and the lack of proof either way... is what makes the conspiracy theory keep being a possible conspiracy theory. 🤷
is what makes the conspiracy theory keep being a possible conspiracy theory. 🤷
Conspiracy theories continuing to be conspiracy theories requires no causation, because spurious theorizing in general sits outside of logic and reason.
We still have lots of assholes who think the earth being round is a conspiracy pushed on us by big science or whatever, or that "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" (presumably they don't understand how kindling works), or that 5g causes COVID, and even bizarrely that COVID is both a Chinese conspiracy at the same time as it is a hoax and/or harmless.
Conspiratorial thinking isn't driven by reason, logic, or facts. It's tolerated most by people who have no issues with and/or sense of cognitive dissonance. It's more similar to a distributed form of cultism. It's one of creativity's awful cousins.
You're conflating "conspiratorial thinking" with "conspiracy theories".
Conspiracies are a real thing, they happen all the time (and most are punishable by law); conspiratorial thinking is people coming up with, and believing, conspiracies no matter how impossible they are, which is way different from actual conspiracies.
"Conspiracy theories" just happens to be a term that can be used in both cases, it doesn't mean all of them are impossible.
Nah, I'm not.
Conspiratorial thinking is what gives you the bunkum conspiracy theories, and the evidence or lack thereof has nothing to do with their production.
As far as I can tell from my reading they come more from an environment of distrust often combined with disordered thinking.
Sure there can be actual conspiracies, but they also usually come with accompanying evidence and more than hunches, hindsight, or temporally related events.
What was the prior situation with the reservists? Did they backtrack on their no show threats before the war broke or was the war what forced them to show up
It's not that easy. There is constant information coming in all the time and intelligent agents need to parse signal from noise. It's not every single bit of intelligence regarding an attack comes into fruition. In fact, it's quite the opposite. This is an extremely difficult signal detection problem, one with lives at stake.
Also they did have radar signatures of the attack incoming but radar tech was new and they didn't trust it.
Please tell me you’re being facetious, because radar has been in use for more than 80 years.
I believe that radar should be read as radar system. That is to say it was a new radar system that had not been fully learned yet not that radar as a concept was new.
80 years ago is the 1940's. But the report was ignored due to lack of training. The way I heard, it was due to radar being relatively new, untested, and thus untrusted.
I’m confused. When did this conversation divert to Pearl Harbor?
I think they responded to the wrong person. There's a pearl harbor tangent happening above this.
That would make the radar tech very old and likely you could not trust their work either.
Well by that logic, we should be really suspicious of tech like the wheel or the plow.
Which is why I have never used a plow before and never plan to.
Good. And I hope you don’t eat any food that contains ingredients that come from fields, or else you’re buying into big plow whether you like it or not.
when you stop to look at the powder keg they created
Wait until you expand it by a few more years:
The bigger problem is that they probably knew. They where informed by Egypt intelligence...
If that is true, then they might have let it happen as an excuse to take Gaza in retribution
Let's not spread conspiracy theories without good sources
US Congressional members with security clearances corroborated this, did they not?
They didn't corroborate that Israel let this happen as justification to level Gaza. That's the conspiracy theory the user above is urging not to spread.
Fair point. Though to me it's of little relevance; for either they were grossly incompetent or they let it happen intentionally.
Given the historical evidence behind the Shock Doctrine, I'm convinced that is what's playing out here.
So, Israel's 9/11 then? It wasn't a coincidence that NORAD was on training exercises that day.
As The Intercept pointed out this week, this is Israel's 9/11 in that it is a horrific event they didn't see coming, but when you stop to look at the powder keg they created, they absolutely should have.
And just like 9/11, they were warned of the attack weeks in advance but were still woefully unprepared to protect their citizens.
I'm worried that they DID know, and are using this as an excuse to further their agenda against Palestinians.
With the Netanyahu government, that's the more plausible explanation.
Well, it worked in the US /s
Well, it really did work in the US. This is literally what happened at Pearl Harbor.
Roosevelt knew the attack was coming, very much so, our intelligence was good. But he needed the attack to happen, so he let it happen.
At the time, Europe was at war and our allies desperately needed help, but the US had been dragging it's heels about getting involved for years. Roosevelt wanted to enter the war and support our allies, but congress just didn't want to make the official declaration of war. But after the attack on Pearl harbor, that declaration came in short order, just as Roosevelt knew it would.
This is untrue. This is a false conspiracy theory that people keep repeating that has no facts to back it up. This one bugs me because my grandfather was in the merchant Marines and was stationed there when this happened. People parroting that untrue fact drove him bonkers.
Which part?
Did the people stationed there get warned? Did merchant Marines have access to top brass intelligence reports? Did Roosevelt have a different motivation? Did Pearl Harbor not happen...?
The whole "Rosevelt knew claim". It is one of those false clames that gets repeated so often.
The problem with claiming the opposite, are things like Patton's pretty much spot on prediction of the attack, the fact that intelligence at the time was routed through Washington, with capability to break the Japanese codes, or the still not declassified documents relating some pre-attack intercepts.
It all suggests that Roosevelt, and/or his staff, had all the pieces to figure out what was going to happen. Whether they didn't, or did and decided to do nothing, and the lack of proof either way... is what makes the conspiracy theory keep being a possible conspiracy theory. 🤷
Conspiracy theories continuing to be conspiracy theories requires no causation, because spurious theorizing in general sits outside of logic and reason.
We still have lots of assholes who think the earth being round is a conspiracy pushed on us by big science or whatever, or that "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" (presumably they don't understand how kindling works), or that 5g causes COVID, and even bizarrely that COVID is both a Chinese conspiracy at the same time as it is a hoax and/or harmless.
Conspiratorial thinking isn't driven by reason, logic, or facts. It's tolerated most by people who have no issues with and/or sense of cognitive dissonance. It's more similar to a distributed form of cultism. It's one of creativity's awful cousins.
You're conflating "conspiratorial thinking" with "conspiracy theories".
Conspiracies are a real thing, they happen all the time (and most are punishable by law); conspiratorial thinking is people coming up with, and believing, conspiracies no matter how impossible they are, which is way different from actual conspiracies.
"Conspiracy theories" just happens to be a term that can be used in both cases, it doesn't mean all of them are impossible.
Nah, I'm not.
Conspiratorial thinking is what gives you the bunkum conspiracy theories, and the evidence or lack thereof has nothing to do with their production.
As far as I can tell from my reading they come more from an environment of distrust often combined with disordered thinking.
Sure there can be actual conspiracies, but they also usually come with accompanying evidence and more than hunches, hindsight, or temporally related events.
That’s sadly a possibility.
What was the prior situation with the reservists? Did they backtrack on their no show threats before the war broke or was the war what forced them to show up
It's not that easy. There is constant information coming in all the time and intelligent agents need to parse signal from noise. It's not every single bit of intelligence regarding an attack comes into fruition. In fact, it's quite the opposite. This is an extremely difficult signal detection problem, one with lives at stake.
Also they did have radar signatures of the attack incoming but radar tech was new and they didn't trust it.
Please tell me you’re being facetious, because radar has been in use for more than 80 years.
I believe that radar should be read as radar system. That is to say it was a new radar system that had not been fully learned yet not that radar as a concept was new.
80 years ago is the 1940's. But the report was ignored due to lack of training. The way I heard, it was due to radar being relatively new, untested, and thus untrusted.
I’m confused. When did this conversation divert to Pearl Harbor?
I think they responded to the wrong person. There's a pearl harbor tangent happening above this.
That would make the radar tech very old and likely you could not trust their work either.
Well by that logic, we should be really suspicious of tech like the wheel or the plow.
Which is why I have never used a plow before and never plan to.
Good. And I hope you don’t eat any food that contains ingredients that come from fields, or else you’re buying into big plow whether you like it or not.
Big brain time
What are you talking about?
And just like 9/11, their response is sowing death to countless civilians.
Wait until you expand it by a few more years:
The bigger problem is that they probably knew. They where informed by Egypt intelligence...
If that is true, then they might have let it happen as an excuse to take Gaza in retribution
Let's not spread conspiracy theories without good sources
US Congressional members with security clearances corroborated this, did they not?
They didn't corroborate that Israel let this happen as justification to level Gaza. That's the conspiracy theory the user above is urging not to spread.
Fair point. Though to me it's of little relevance; for either they were grossly incompetent or they let it happen intentionally.
Given the historical evidence behind the Shock Doctrine, I'm convinced that is what's playing out here.
So, Israel's 9/11 then? It wasn't a coincidence that NORAD was on training exercises that day.