Fox hosts forced to grudgingly admit economy booming under Biden

MicroWave@lemmy.world to politics @lemmy.world – 570 points –
Fox hosts forced to grudgingly admit economy booming under Biden
msnbc.com
254

You are viewing a single comment

The economy is only booming for the rich, anyone trying to tell us otherwise doesn't care about our well-being. If it were doing well they wouldn't have to keep telling us, we could see it in our everyday lives.

Gas prices are down. General cost of living is stabilized. Unemployment is extremely low and the percentage of eligible workers on the sidelines is dropping. Wages are up for the lowest income levels and continue to climb despite slowing inflation. Black households, in particular, have seen a significant narrowing of the income gap, more so than they've seen in many many years. The percentage of women in the workforce is up and salaries are climbing for them as well. In fact, the post-COVID recovery has been wildly successful when you compare it to post-2008 with respect to the improvements for the poorest among us, which is precisely the opposite of what you're claiming.

Yours is purely an appeal to anecdote. The data is clear. Unfortunately, as study after study has shown, data can't compete with vibes, and we just spent the last two years with the MSM (not to mention social media...) telling everyone a recession was around the corner.

I'll tell that to the out of control housing, rising food costs and the worsening healthcare coverage and quality. Man! So glad these few things you mentioned are superficially better. There's no problems now!

/s because you know someone is gonna take it literally.

Housing costs are sky-high. Rent is ridiculous. Good luck ever trying to own a house. And yeah, cost of living went way way up and now it's "stabilized" there.

And to say wages are up is just laughable. I mean, yeah people are now being paid $15 an hour instead of $10, but what does that matter when food and housing costs increased more than that?

The data is skewed by the people that benefited from raising the price of everything during COVID-19 and then never brought the prices down.

The rich are richer and they are the measuring stick for the economy because they own all the news sources. It is dramatically worse for the poor now than it was 5 years ago.

Don't let bullshit propaganda fool you.

I feel like this CONSTANTLY happens and people just eat it. Prices skyrocket. Then they stop rising or maybe even dip a little but still remain way higher than they originally were and... Problem solved! It's stabilized! In fact prices are DROPPING! huzzah!

Makes me wonder if people are really this easily fooled or are they all just being ignored? Lol

I feel like this CONSTANTLY happens and people just eat it. Prices skyrocket. Then they stop rising or maybe even dip a little but still remain way higher than they originally were and… Problem solved!

Literally yes. Prices go up, wages go up, that's a healthy economy. Take an economics class.

If prices ever start broadly going down, prepare for a massive economic ass fucking the likes of which you've never seen and clearly can't imagine.

Yeah the economy is healthy, just not for 90% of the country.

Line go up is just a cult, nothing else.

Ideally the economy is just something you need to plan, to stay stable and anticipate environmental and population concerns. It shouldn't need to go up or down to maintain production.

This "homelessness goes up but so does GDP so it's okay" shit is unworkable, cruel and unsustainable and only benefits bezos et al

Christ alive you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever studied economics? At all? Or are you just posting your fee fees?

Would you go into a hospital and start lecturing doctors on how their practice is bullshit? Sure, there are probably a lot of things that could be improved, but you don't have the knowledge to speak about them. Take some courses, then come back and speak from an informed perspective.

"Planned economy" is a 12 year old's idea of how things should be.

You’re on serious damage control and spouting derivative drivel. “Take an economics class” meanwhile people who did found that set of nomics to be non sensical, because “economics” at its core isn’t about what most people think it is. Cost and worth are two separate things, and the whims of our livelihoods is decided emotionally. Not logically.

Answer my question. Have you ever studied economics in any fashion?

Yes I absolutely have. Would you care to say anything other than “study economics”? Would you care to support your bullshit or explain for those who haven’t?

For the benefit of those who haven’t studied carpentry, it’s not out of line for a carpenter to explain the trade a little.

Great. So do you understand why a moderate level of inflation is a good thing for quality of life? "line go up" in a broad economic sense.

And do you understand how profit motives spur investment which generates improvements which leads to better quality of life? "Line go up" for individual companies.

And this is a little more advanced, but also a little easier to see in the real world: do you understand why every planned economy has failed to raise quality of life as well as capitalist economies?

I would LOVE to unpack this with you right here and counter your sentiments.

Great. So do you understand why a moderate level of inflation is a good thing for quality of life? “line go up” in a broad economic sense.

The main issue I have with this is that its a self fulfilling prophecy, and that's something all economists acknowledge. The prevailing theory is that rising prices alters consumer behavior, ie making a new purchase out of fear of further price increases. Workers ask for raises to cope with rising prices. My argument is that this bad due to the circular nature of this logic. As a working everyperson, you ask for a raise to mitigate inflation, so that you can again afford goods/services, which then increases the demand, which in turns results in higher prices again. Employers decide to pass this cost on too which further inflates prices.

The issue is the lack of monitored expectations due to investor demands both in speculative and results driven investments. Take a company's debt basis or attractiveness to investors, they want the "line go up" to get a return on investments but that has to come from somewhere. In what we're seeing today we have record earnings and by all indicators record revenue growth but investors want their return, and the executive leadership in our current organizational models means they answer neither to customers nor employees but only "line go up", and that's short term at best. Cue lack of monitored expectations. On the sense of policymakers looking at inflation being too bad, their control mechanism for reducing inflation puts the hardship primarily on the working class. Ie reduce demand by firing people and putting them into poverty. The need for healthcare exists, and the facade of "but EMTALA makes healthcare accessible" does nothing to address the financial ruin a person sees by getting laid off, losing their job and coverage, all because policymakers saw that inflation was too high and it gets taken out on workers instead of having mechanisms to deal with corporate profits, which is widely acknowledged to be responsible for 40% of inflation overall, yet the control mechanism is widespread impact on those least able to absorb it.

My opposing viewpoint to the economist perspective of inflation being necessary is this concept of forcibly creating winners and losers the way that we do. People who attempt to save money lose because their savings is devalued, so we're dependent on a set of tax rules that allow us to rathole money up in 401k's/IRA's on the hope that investments outperform inflation, but anything in savings just devalues over time. Let's say you save money for major auto repairs, but in one year the repair costs jump up 20%, how fair is that? That means we have to continually adjust the financial model for vehicle ownership, and if you plug those numbers in you find that people can't afford cars where 5 years ago on median incomes they could. Meanwhile credit worthy individuals who borrow heavily benefit from debt that gets "inflated away" provided they are lucky enough to negotiate the income.

I don't know if you've noticed, but 2024 is not off to a great start, due to the interest rate adjustments, getting a job right now is hell, so the worker leverage is virtually gone. Employers are increasingly taking the "GTFO if you don't like it" approach and are even doing soft layoffs with RTO policies.

Count more than fucking beans, and also economists emotionally justify what they want to see, and the data can be interpreted many ways. I think it's a bullshit profession that causes way more harm by justifying policy that benefits the wealthy while fucking the rest of the country.

And do you understand how profit motives spur investment which generates improvements which leads to better quality of life? “Line go up” for individual companies.

Explain that to the hundreds of thousand of people finding their job redundant thanks to AI investments. I don't see how getting fired benefits people when the market isn't creating replacement opportunities for them. What's happened is that the leverage people use to enjoy in their profession just got removed, and I would posit that this mindset has created the second gilded age that we're in with a declining quality of life. Look at housing, healthcare, and education costs before telling anyone with a straight face that the above mindset lifts up quality of life for the average person. I would say that for wealthy investors and the billionaire class, it sure benefits them.

And this is a little more advanced, but also a little easier to see in the real world: do you understand why every planned economy has failed to raise quality of life as well as capitalist economies?

Look at Scandinavia and tell me the US healthcare approach is better. Look at Canada and tell me the US higher education system is better. We're already seeing competing economies that use socialism alongside capitalism to vastly improve quality of life metrics far moreso than the US. Capitalism is fine, when its regulated and heavily so. It's amazing to me that people forgot the Sherman Anti Trust Act, and why such laws got passed in the concept of "what's good for the public trust". Economics works against the public trust by being amoral in nature. Things like stock buybacks need to be illegal again, and socialism shouldn't be an ugly word. Heavily regulating conflicts of interest (see Oxley Sarbanes), anti-trust (see Sherman Antitrust), and working against the concept of "winner take all" is how we avoid despots and tyrants who got lucky enough to be born rich and sociopathic.

If you go back to the planned economy the US had during wartime, I would argue that a planned economy sows the seeds for the massive gains experienced by the bull markets thereafter (transitioning from WW2 to the 50's). Unplanned free market economies are what has been associated with the guilded age and "winner take all" concepts that dominate our worst years of depressions in history.

My argument is that this bad due to the circular nature of this logic.

The whole point of modern economic theory is that it is GOOD due to the circular nature. Higher prices higher wages higher profit motive higher standard of living. It's a beneficial cycle.

they want the “line go up” to get a return on investments but that has to come from somewhere.

Not really. There's not a finite supply of money. Profits that are driven by efficiency improvements do actually come from "nowhere".

and the executive leadership in our current organizational models means they answer neither to customers nor employees but only “line go up”, and that’s short term at best

That's fair, and it's the job of regulation and government policy to harness the short term greed into long term societal objectives. We haven't been doing a great job of that. Short term greed by itself does do a lot of good, but it also drives harm in some areas (eg the environment) and ignores other areas (eg finding a cure for a rare disease). Ideally, the government should have a hand tweaking incentives in some areas (eg carbon tax) and taking direct action in others (eg funding medical research).

On the sense of policymakers looking at inflation being too bad, their control mechanism for reducing inflation puts the hardship primarily on the working class.

True, but policymakers have other levers they can pull which help the working class, to offset the above. Note I said "can pull" not necessarily "do pull" - Republicans are absolutely opposed to doing this.

it gets taken out on workers instead of having mechanisms to deal with corporate profits

Again, we absolutely have these mechanisms, but Republicans block them. The Fed is not beholden to Republicans (or Democrats) so they can unilaterally raise interest rates. But the tools to offset the harm done to working class people are subject to every roadblock Republicans can throw in the way of them.

Let’s say you save money for major auto repairs, but in one year the repair costs jump up 20%, how fair is that?

You're conflating "a moderate level of inflation" (2%) with "way too much inflation" (20%). No one is saying that 20% inflation is a good thing. If repair costs jump up 2%, that's fine.

Explain that to the hundreds of thousand of people finding their job redundant thanks to AI investments.

I'll file them away with farriers and thatchers. Technological improvement is an objectively good thing.

And again, we could have better skills retraining programs, but...Republicans.

Look at Scandinavia and tell me the US healthcare approach is better. Look at Canada and tell me the US higher education system is better.

Neither of those are planned economies. They're government taking a direct role in some areas, which is good and wholly supported by the capitalist model. Some things are best served by monopoly or direct government oversight. The majority are not.

Capitalism is fine, when its regulated and heavily so.

I wholeheartedly agree, and that's very different than a planned economy.

Things like stock buybacks need to be illegal again, and socialism shouldn’t be an ugly word. Heavily regulating conflicts of interest (see Oxley Sarbanes), anti-trust (see Sherman Antitrust), and working against the concept of “winner take all” is how we avoid despots and tyrants who got lucky enough to be born rich and sociopathic.

100% agree with all of this.

2 more...

In summary, I think all the good you want to see can be accomplished by a capitalist economy with strong socialist oversight (in the sense of Scandinavian socialism). There's no need for a centrally planned economy or an attempt to remove all inflation.

2 more...
2 more...
2 more...

DOES IT FUCKING MATTER IF THEY CANT AFFORD FOOD AND RENT?!

Yes. Because if they decide to make things worse out of ignorance, then other people can't afford food and rent.

2 more...
2 more...
2 more...
2 more...
2 more...
2 more...
2 more...

If his is purely anctedote, then yours is decontextualized.

Gas prices are down.

Sure. Since a high in June of 2022. The last time gas prices were at this level was June 2021. And the time before that was October 2014. Which is to say, for about 6 years, gas prices were lower than today. And just looking at the graph, they were significantly below today's level. Just to note, they have yet to return to the levels before the precipitous rise stating in December 2020.

There maybe, as you noted, vibes, but they ain't wrong.

Unemployment should be looked at with, of course participation rate which has held even for the last year, and how long people have been unemployed which has been growing slightly for those unemployed for 27 weeks or more. This also doesn't address underemployment which disporporstely effects the young and poor. Underemployment colors one's outlook for stability in the present and future.

Thankfully, Biden and others in the administration have managed this far better than 2008 for the average citizen. Not having a recession is a good thing. I've lived through several. But that doesn't mean there isn't looming concerns. Inflation is still higher than the target and instigating further disinflation is uncharted territory.

Data, in of itself, is not enough. It needs to be contextualized to develop political and social narratives. Addressing people with condescension and dismissing their anxieties as mere vibes fails politically.

I think people are expecting all the prices to return to "normal" when that's probably never going to happen, as a good chunk of the price increases are due to post-covid inflation

the largest driver of inflation during and after the pandemic is companies raising prices, and turning record profits.

Living is more unaffordable than ever. What even is your comment

I stopped reading at gas prices are down. They are up .40 the last week.

The data is clear

The gaslighting is all thats clear. All the data conflicts with your claim. Homelessness up to the highest level ever recorded, housing is unaffordable, food is unaffordable, wages are stagnant, income inequality is the widest ever recorded.

I stopped reading at gas prices are down. They are up .40 the last week.

This is just as stupid as saying because it snowed, global warning isn't real.

No if you're going to get the first fact blatantly wrong odds are the rest is going to be bunch of bullshit too

Gas prices are down in my area, so you're blatantly wrong.

Checkmate, dumbass.

Good thing your area is the entire world. Oh wait. Turns out, on balance gas prices are not down. But you go ahead and live in that bubble of yours and pretend your name calling is doing something.

Good thing your area is the entire world.

OH MY GOD HE FINALLY GETS IT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!

Apparently you don't though. Jesus, the willful ignorance is strong.

20 more...
20 more...