I really don't like comments like this. They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
I don't read it as that... To me it looks like being afraid of leaving the closet causes homophobia
This is the same principle as small penis men buying large trucks... They are doubling down on the homophobia display to over compensate for their homosexuality
But haven't you noticed that every loudmouth homophobe gets called secretly queer?
I think it's because they so often are ... It's becoming a stereotype now
I think they so often are claimed to be. How many actually are? Have there been some? Yes. Do we actually know how many? Even a rough estimate?
I think they so often are claimed to be
They portrait themselves as raging homophobics just to then pretend to be gay? I don't follow
I think that other people often make the claim that homophobes are secretly gay and I'm asking if we actually know how many, even based on a rough estimate, that applies to. If not, it's a spurious and rather disturbing claim.
I'm just hoping that the stereotype gets to them and causes them to mellow out in response.
This is exactly how stereotypes work. And no, they should not be taking super seriously even if they do tend to come from some real life examples
Personally, I am not super concerned if claims against homophobes are spurious, they do not seem to mind claiming gay people are pedophiles in disguise for example
But as I said, it suggests that queer people are the homophobes. That's my issue. It lessens the bigotry issue if the implication is that cishet people aren't the ones being homophobic.
Not it doesn't.... some fruits are apples, apples are not all fruit
Again, I do not know what you are fishing for but I don't care to follow
Yes it does, since every time someone is in the news for being homophobic, people chime in to say they're in the closet. Every single time.
18 people vs. every single person who says anything homophobic that gets reported on the news since people always claim that person is closeted.
Which is my point.
Homophobia is the reason some queer people self hate so goddamn much they lash out at all queer people while the original homophobes cheer it on. Also, some people are just awful, terrible monsters regardless of their sexuality.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don't hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they're bigoted, not because they're secretly the thing they're bigoted against.
Religion isn't something intrinsic about a person. If you hate the fact that you're a Muslim, you can opt out.
You cannot opt out being queer.
Okay then, you don't hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it's regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Yeah, nobody says that people opposed to disability rights are secretly suffering from an invisible disability.
Again people don't choose disabilities
We choose them as much as we choose to be gay. And when they’re invisible we can hide them similarly well in my experience
Nah it's a tale as old as time, we used to call it "the one who smelt it dealt it" but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
Can you name another example where bigotry against a traditionally marginalized minority is virtually always claimed to be coming from that minority?
I don't care to sit here all day thinking about it and I'm not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you're just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I'm saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you." It's a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
How about "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you" is that better?
If you're in a room full of people, and you "lose" something, the person that helps look for it the most, the one who won't give up and is very curious about where your item "went" is the thief.
And yet you can't think of one other marginalized group of people where every time a finger is pointed at them, people claim the person doing the pointing is part of that group.
Curious that you don't find that problematic despite having no other examples.
Self-hate is a funny thing.
I wonder if that's a "law" yet ala Goodwin, Winslow, Murphy, etc. "The hate a person has for a group is proportionate to the amount of "denied/repressed belonging" that same person has to said group."
See, this sounds like you're saying queer people are the cause of homophobia, which is exactly what my point was.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
Not true, pedophiles often fall in this category and there is even more evidence of this to justify correlation
Sorry, you're saying that people who hate pedophiles are themselves pedophiles?
Not at all... and looking at the rest of your comments I don't really know what you are fishing for but I don't want to play your game
I'm not "fishing for" anything. Please don't make ridiculous accusations about me. If that isn't what you meant, what did you mean?
They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
I don't think it would be accurate to call someone like Ted Haggard or Marcus Bachmann or Jerry Falwell Jr "queer", as they are deeply closeted and conformist presenting. That said, I do see the consequences of prior iterations of conversion therapy produce a group of incredibly violent and sadistic "ex" gay men.
So I might say that violence against queer people has a cyclical effect and perpetuates homophobia, in the same way that violence against women perpetuates misogyny and violence against pocs perpetuate racism. Some of the people who have had their personalities systematically reshaped through physical and psychological abuse inherit the job of abusing the next generation. They are held up as symbols of the system's success and granted special privilege on the condition they continue the cycle of violence on behalf of the originators of the system.
But when you get behind the Ted Haggards and Marcus Bachmans and Falwell Jrs, you'll routinely find patriarchs fixated on their genetic legacy, who see queer children as a threat to their continued line. The real root of this problem is the fixation on race science and genetic bloodlines. The extremely high opinion that Ronald Reagan or Dick Cheney or Mitt Romney or Donald Trump have of themselves and the desperate need they have for large families that will propagate their own genes leads to this ideological revulsion towards children who won't also have large families.
Its the blue blooded aristocrat's need for racial purity that leads to homophobia. Brutalized ex-gay converts are simply their deputies, in the endless war on their own children and grandchildren in pursuit of even more offspring.
Well everyone is on a spectrum then... strictly speaking it's true. 😅
Not that queer people cause homophobia, just a lot of homophobes turn out to fuck the same gender.
As I have said to others- You are talking about 18 actual people vs. every time any person in the news says something homophobic. That's the problem. There are, if you were to believe what is said, no cishet homophobes. They're all secretly queer.
It's just a random list, but there have been a lot more.
The point is, nobody believes they are all gay, just that many of the fervent ones happen to be. Or at the very least they have dabbled in the acts.
Like catholic church - very anti-gay, get altar boys have been molested at a very high rate.
So while 'not all homophobes', there is certainly a trend. And I dunno, perhaps it should be investigated deeper when you push on it like that.
The point is, nobody believes they are all gay,
And yet, as I said, every single time someone says something homophobic in the media, the claim is that they're closeted.
So I think people do believe that. They may not admit they believe it, but what else can be derived from that finger pointing every single time?
People do that to Catholic church as well, does that make you feel like EVERY clergy man is a predator?
It's just a coincidence, but frequent enough, to make that connection.
Same as here. And those same homophobes and fragile masculiners will sing praises about well-built male bodies. And keep almost exclusively male company.
There are people who oppose gay marriage because it works for them politically, but if their base shifted opinions, would support it 100%. But they keep it all on the down low.
People do that to Catholic church as well, does that make you feel like EVERY clergy man is a predator?
Sorry, are you saying being a priest is an inherent trait?
You choose to be a priest, exactly as you choose to be openly bigoted and build your entire platform around it.
You don't choose to be queer.
And, again, every time someone says something homophobic, people claim they're secretly queer.
No one claims all pedophiles are priests, but people claim all homophobes are queer.
Would you claim all antisemites are Jews? If not, what's the difference?
Do you see a string of anti-semites discovering they are jewish?
No.
Do you see stream of homophobes caught with gay porn/orgies?
Yes, you do.
It's nothing more than that. That's the difference, and that's why people react this way.
People don't think too deeply about that. You make it seem like there is a conspiracy behind it, and that only gays can be homophobic.
I would say that everyone is a little big queer, and the more people deny it, specially going overboard, that means they are scared of it.
Why would people be scared of something so innocent? Most likely toxic masculinity or religious lies.
People don't think too deeply about their biogted beliefs all the time.
And, based on your "everyone is a little bit queer" reasoning, "everyone is a little bit disabled" with various problems so that means that anyone who is ableist and denies that and goes overboard isn't a bigot, they're a disabled person who is scared of being disabled.
Do you believe that?
Maybe you should think more deeply about such a belief rather than keep acting like that "queer people are the cause of their own oppression" is a reasonable position to hold
How is being disabled the same as being queer?
And nowhere did I say they are not bigots. They are. There are many bigots, most of which keep it to themselves.
Then there are bigoted loudmouths, who have a history of being gay.
Nothing from that even remotely suggests that queer people are the source of their own opression.
Both being disabled and being queer are inherent, immutable traits that people can claim are on a spectrum and "everyone is a little bit" either of them.
Yet somehow ableists aren't all disabled. But, according to you all homophobes are queer. So yes, that does mean that queer people are the source of their own oppression. Because only queer people are oppressing queer people by your own claim.
I really don't like comments like this. They imply that queer people are the cause of homophobia.
I don't read it as that... To me it looks like being afraid of leaving the closet causes homophobia
This is the same principle as small penis men buying large trucks... They are doubling down on the homophobia display to over compensate for their homosexuality
But haven't you noticed that every loudmouth homophobe gets called secretly queer?
I think it's because they so often are ... It's becoming a stereotype now
I think they so often are claimed to be. How many actually are? Have there been some? Yes. Do we actually know how many? Even a rough estimate?
They portrait themselves as raging homophobics just to then pretend to be gay? I don't follow
I think that other people often make the claim that homophobes are secretly gay and I'm asking if we actually know how many, even based on a rough estimate, that applies to. If not, it's a spurious and rather disturbing claim.
I'm just hoping that the stereotype gets to them and causes them to mellow out in response.
This is exactly how stereotypes work. And no, they should not be taking super seriously even if they do tend to come from some real life examples
Personally, I am not super concerned if claims against homophobes are spurious, they do not seem to mind claiming gay people are pedophiles in disguise for example
But as I said, it suggests that queer people are the homophobes. That's my issue. It lessens the bigotry issue if the implication is that cishet people aren't the ones being homophobic.
Not it doesn't.... some fruits are apples, apples are not all fruit
Again, I do not know what you are fishing for but I don't care to follow
Yes it does, since every time someone is in the news for being homophobic, people chime in to say they're in the closet. Every single time.
Well there’s this list https://www.advocate.com/politicians/2018/5/24/18-homophobic-leaders-who-turned-out-be-gay-or-bi
18 people vs. every single person who says anything homophobic that gets reported on the news since people always claim that person is closeted.
Which is my point.
Homophobia is the reason some queer people self hate so goddamn much they lash out at all queer people while the original homophobes cheer it on. Also, some people are just awful, terrible monsters regardless of their sexuality.
Sure, there are self-hating people of all sorts of marginalized groups, but queer people are the only ones who get regularly talked about as if the people who oppress them are also queer.
You don't hear about Muslims being oppressed by secret Muslims.
I cannot provide evidence for this, obviously, but it would seem to me that most bigots are bigots because they're bigoted, not because they're secretly the thing they're bigoted against.
Religion isn't something intrinsic about a person. If you hate the fact that you're a Muslim, you can opt out.
You cannot opt out being queer.
Okay then, you don't hear about white bigots being secretly light-skinned black people. Pick whatever group you want. Queer people are the only one I can think of where it's regularly claimed that the people bigoted against them are themselves the people they are bigoted against.
Yeah, nobody says that people opposed to disability rights are secretly suffering from an invisible disability.
Again people don't choose disabilities
We choose them as much as we choose to be gay. And when they’re invisible we can hide them similarly well in my experience
Nah it's a tale as old as time, we used to call it "the one who smelt it dealt it" but the principle is the same. The most fervent and vocal are often just trying to cover their own asses.
Can you name another example where bigotry against a traditionally marginalized minority is virtually always claimed to be coming from that minority?
I don't care to sit here all day thinking about it and I'm not sure I agree with that characterization anyway, it seems like you're just looking for a fight honestly.
Do you understand what I'm saying though, are you familiar with the phrase? Another is "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you." It's a fairly common bit of folk wisdom.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with your analogy where you equate suggesting all homophobes are secretly gay with accusing someone of farting.
How about "when you point the finger at someone you have three pointed back at you" is that better?
If you're in a room full of people, and you "lose" something, the person that helps look for it the most, the one who won't give up and is very curious about where your item "went" is the thief.
And yet you can't think of one other marginalized group of people where every time a finger is pointed at them, people claim the person doing the pointing is part of that group.
Curious that you don't find that problematic despite having no other examples.
Self-hate is a funny thing.
I wonder if that's a "law" yet ala Goodwin, Winslow, Murphy, etc. "The hate a person has for a group is proportionate to the amount of "denied/repressed belonging" that same person has to said group."
See, this sounds like you're saying queer people are the cause of homophobia, which is exactly what my point was.
Not true, pedophiles often fall in this category and there is even more evidence of this to justify correlation
Sorry, you're saying that people who hate pedophiles are themselves pedophiles?
Not at all... and looking at the rest of your comments I don't really know what you are fishing for but I don't want to play your game
I'm not "fishing for" anything. Please don't make ridiculous accusations about me. If that isn't what you meant, what did you mean?
I don't think it would be accurate to call someone like Ted Haggard or Marcus Bachmann or Jerry Falwell Jr "queer", as they are deeply closeted and conformist presenting. That said, I do see the consequences of prior iterations of conversion therapy produce a group of incredibly violent and sadistic "ex" gay men.
So I might say that violence against queer people has a cyclical effect and perpetuates homophobia, in the same way that violence against women perpetuates misogyny and violence against pocs perpetuate racism. Some of the people who have had their personalities systematically reshaped through physical and psychological abuse inherit the job of abusing the next generation. They are held up as symbols of the system's success and granted special privilege on the condition they continue the cycle of violence on behalf of the originators of the system.
But when you get behind the Ted Haggards and Marcus Bachmans and Falwell Jrs, you'll routinely find patriarchs fixated on their genetic legacy, who see queer children as a threat to their continued line. The real root of this problem is the fixation on race science and genetic bloodlines. The extremely high opinion that Ronald Reagan or Dick Cheney or Mitt Romney or Donald Trump have of themselves and the desperate need they have for large families that will propagate their own genes leads to this ideological revulsion towards children who won't also have large families.
Its the blue blooded aristocrat's need for racial purity that leads to homophobia. Brutalized ex-gay converts are simply their deputies, in the endless war on their own children and grandchildren in pursuit of even more offspring.
Well everyone is on a spectrum then... strictly speaking it's true. 😅
It's because it's a recurring theme.
Not that queer people cause homophobia, just a lot of homophobes turn out to fuck the same gender.
As I have said to others- You are talking about 18 actual people vs. every time any person in the news says something homophobic. That's the problem. There are, if you were to believe what is said, no cishet homophobes. They're all secretly queer.
It's just a random list, but there have been a lot more.
The point is, nobody believes they are all gay, just that many of the fervent ones happen to be. Or at the very least they have dabbled in the acts.
Like catholic church - very anti-gay, get altar boys have been molested at a very high rate.
So while 'not all homophobes', there is certainly a trend. And I dunno, perhaps it should be investigated deeper when you push on it like that.
And yet, as I said, every single time someone says something homophobic in the media, the claim is that they're closeted.
So I think people do believe that. They may not admit they believe it, but what else can be derived from that finger pointing every single time?
People do that to Catholic church as well, does that make you feel like EVERY clergy man is a predator?
It's just a coincidence, but frequent enough, to make that connection.
Same as here. And those same homophobes and fragile masculiners will sing praises about well-built male bodies. And keep almost exclusively male company.
There are people who oppose gay marriage because it works for them politically, but if their base shifted opinions, would support it 100%. But they keep it all on the down low.
Sorry, are you saying being a priest is an inherent trait?
You choose to be a priest, exactly as you choose to be openly bigoted and build your entire platform around it.
You don't choose to be queer.
And, again, every time someone says something homophobic, people claim they're secretly queer.
No one claims all pedophiles are priests, but people claim all homophobes are queer.
Would you claim all antisemites are Jews? If not, what's the difference?
Do you see a string of anti-semites discovering they are jewish?
No.
Do you see stream of homophobes caught with gay porn/orgies?
Yes, you do.
It's nothing more than that. That's the difference, and that's why people react this way.
People don't think too deeply about that. You make it seem like there is a conspiracy behind it, and that only gays can be homophobic.
I would say that everyone is a little big queer, and the more people deny it, specially going overboard, that means they are scared of it.
Why would people be scared of something so innocent? Most likely toxic masculinity or religious lies.
People don't think too deeply about their biogted beliefs all the time.
And, based on your "everyone is a little bit queer" reasoning, "everyone is a little bit disabled" with various problems so that means that anyone who is ableist and denies that and goes overboard isn't a bigot, they're a disabled person who is scared of being disabled.
Do you believe that?
Maybe you should think more deeply about such a belief rather than keep acting like that "queer people are the cause of their own oppression" is a reasonable position to hold
How is being disabled the same as being queer?
And nowhere did I say they are not bigots. They are. There are many bigots, most of which keep it to themselves.
Then there are bigoted loudmouths, who have a history of being gay.
Nothing from that even remotely suggests that queer people are the source of their own opression.
Both being disabled and being queer are inherent, immutable traits that people can claim are on a spectrum and "everyone is a little bit" either of them.
Yet somehow ableists aren't all disabled. But, according to you all homophobes are queer. So yes, that does mean that queer people are the source of their own oppression. Because only queer people are oppressing queer people by your own claim.
Damn you dumb
Please do educate dumb me by providing evidence that most or all homophones are secretly queer.
There and their are gay af