Honest question, how can we ever get out of this? Is it just human nature for most of the population to not have critical thinking skills? Is it possible to reach a world where the majority of people have even just a little empathy?
It's just so sad. It's so clear to anyone even kinda paying attention that we possess the technical capacity as a society to meet everyone's needs and eliminate so much human-caused suffering at the detriment to absolutely nobody. We could be working toward a society where everyone has community, safety, security, opportunity. We could do so much if all we did was kind of give a shit about each other.
But no. Let's elect the guy who mocked a disabled reporter, encourages white supremacy, committed treason, etc.
Donald Trump is just a guy. A shitty guy, but just a guy. He's not what is ruining the world, but the fact that so many Americans want to vote for that shitty guy as president shows that a massive portion of the population is also just some shitty person, and fuck if that doesn't just burn up all my hope for this world.
Education is the only way to overcome this tsunami of stupidity and misinformation. But it’s slow and costly.
Conservatives with a capital "c" are not brainwashed; they're not tricked; they're not progressives who've been misinformed. Trump is who they are and what they want.
The Dominion discovery documents demonstrate that Fox News opinion hacks changed their coverage to appease the deplorables. In the case of the big lie, it was the viewers who radicalized right media, not the other way round. Maybe it's been that way the whole time?
The deplorables number in the millions. We need a plan to defeat and marginalize them in our democracy, not fantasies about changing what they are.
i’m not so sure it’s just evil people being evil
i think it’s just us vs them, which basically has roots in greed, power over others, etc
i think you could probably overturn those things with better instilled skills of long term planning, understanding of things like game theory (sometimes giving something to someone helps both of you! it’s not rewarding laziness: it can be selfish and humane)
i just think the reasoning here doesn’t go further than the initial emotion… there’s been no reinforcement that maybe your first reaction isn’t the right one
I'm going to go ahead and assume you're not from middle America. It's a lot more than just shitty people being shitty. This Cracked article from 2016 explains it quite well and I can assure you, as someone who was born and raised and now lives in Trump country, it still holds up. Add seven years of aggressive propaganda and intense radicalization and here we are now. The populist to fascist pipeline is almost complete.
Thanks for reminding me of how good David Wong used to be at capturing popular thought and placing you into a certain perspective. I might not agree with some of the generalizations of that article, but it does help understand their perspective.
the fact that so many Americans want to vote for that shitty guy as president shows that a massive portion of the population is also just some shitty person
They are scared and have been convinced that he is the only one that can help them. They are not just "shitty people voting for a shitty person" they really believe that the deep state is out to get Donald and these charges are overblown and that Donald will really save America. They won't realize that Trump only cares about Trump; even if Trump gets another term and burns down the government and fucks everyone they still will think Donald is just one week away from unveiling his plan to fix it all.
That ignorance makes them pretty shitty.
I'm not saying they're fundamentally and permanently shitty, but they are being shitty. Refusing to become a more aware person is shitty.
They are stupid and scared and propaganda is extra powerful on people who are stupid and scared.
They are scared and have been convinced that he is the only one that can help them. They are not just “shitty people voting for a shitty person” they really believe that the deep state is out to get Donald and these charges are overblown and that Donald will really save America. They won’t realize that Trump only cares about Trump; even if Trump gets another term and burns down the government and fucks everyone they still will think Donald is just one week away from unveiling his plan to fix it all.
And that is exactly my problem with that kind of thinking (or rather: believing). How did they arrive at such conclusions? Did Trump actually do ANYTHING to make their personal lives better even for a second? How many examples are there of Mr. Ivory Tower to make even an ounce of positive difference in the lives of rural folks?
So all I can see is a gullible people following the loudest talking head on a whim. It's really hard for me to feel pity, much less sympathy in this circumstance. Although pity is certainly appropriate.
Nationalism and nativism pops up every few generations. Always has. We beat it every time and it shuts up and the world dramatically improves for a while. As it improves, some people become nativists and nationalists, and the cycle repeats.
Google the "Know-Nothing Party." Trump isn't anything new at all.
Only problem is, just like a super hero, we have to win every time, and they only have to win once.
We shame them for being shitty. Don't engage them in debate, they are used to that. Don't try to use facts, because they don't care about facts. Don't try to convince them of shit.
Make them feel like outcasts and bad people. Brush off what they say when they say horrible shit. Make them have emotional responses to their shitty views. Conservative news targets these people by exploiting their emotions.
And vote. Vote for people who will fix our education system so that our next generation knows how to think for themselves.
That approach could work in the past, but it won't now. Now we have the internet when even people shamed by their family or neighbors will find support and like-minded individuals. We are only going to be more divided in the future.
Unfortunately, you are correct. We're doomed.
I once saw a comment where a guy said that before the internet, if someone wanted to fuck toasters and told anyone, he would be shamed and made fun of to the point where he'd never bring it up again.
With the internet, if someone wants to fuck a toaster, they can go online and find a while community of people who also enjoy fucking toasters, complete with guides and recommendations on the best toasters to fuck.
Its absurd, but it illustrates a great point. So yeah, we are fucked. Pandoras box is open.
I'm left of centre, and here's my take - the "left" is fucking up so badly that the right is going to win.
Ever play a sport and you just trounce your opponent, but the coach says "you weren't that good! They were just that bad tonight."
This is the same thing. Trump and the GOP aren't doing some amazing job of campaigning and manipulating, they're just up against the weakest opponent who can't stop scoring on their own fucking net.
First let me preface this by saying that I vote against Republicans as often as I get the chance to. Which on the rare occasion someone runs against them where I live. It is usually a democrat. So I am a staunch Ally of the Democrats. That being said.
I am left of center of what is generally considered left in the united states. The left isn't fucking anything up. The Left has been cut off from having a voice for nearly the last 100 years in the united States. Since at least McCarthy. What we've seen is a populous that has been beholden to an incestuous right wing relationship. Between two solidly right wing pro oligarch parties. Though to Liberal Democrats credit. They give lots of lip service to the concept of social democracy. And do eventually, once it no longer takes courage or bravery, do the right thing. Once they get tired of everyone shouting at them enough.
We need the economic tools we've spent the last hundred years vilifying. And we need a Resurgence of Education especially economic and political. People in the United States who think they are the left, and the way we are miseducated to define left are a joke. One that is crippling us and turning us against ourselves.
We need to rip and tear the largest corporations apart. We need to nationalize basic necessities. We need to abolish private or unaccountable funding of all elections that every level. And most of all we need to empower workers. It's only a start. But those are the things we have to do. And unfortunately my generation the Xers. All approaching 50 and 60 years old have largely abdicated and lost their chance to really impact or make a change. We need younger representatives in touch with what's going on now to write the laws that will lead us into the future. Instead of the regulations that will hold us in some nostalgically idealized past that never existed.
Yeah the idea Dems are left is hilarious to me, social democrats in the streets, neoliberal conservatives in the sheets. The last cry of the left as a concentrated political voice was contained in aspects of the civil rights movement, but those aspects, like MLK's socialist insistence on economic redistribution through class projects, and his identity as a labor organizer, is completely whitewashed. It's condensed to Rosa Parks sat on a bus, MLK had a dream, LBJ passed the law.
The Dems stop at disparity frameworks because that doesn't threaten the political economy in any meaningful way, as long as people are fucked over proportionately it's okay. Rising income inequality, lowered standards of living, eventually something has to give to keep this speculative real estate project of a country going.
One thing the political center lacks in America - and I say center because we don't have a truly leftist political party - is a vision for the future. They don't want a fundamental change in how the economy and government work, they just want to keep things steady and work around the edges.
The problem is the economy and government aren't working for most people and most people want them replaced.
Republicans have a vision. Yeah, it's a racist, sexist vision that will drag us back to the 1950s, but it's a vision they can communicate.
What's the Democrats' vision? I don't think it's mine, of worker cooperatives and high speed rail and free education and universal health care, paid for by shaking Bezos and Musk upside down until no more money comes out. As far as I can tell they just want to keep things going like they have since the 90s.
And then they wonder why they can't seem to get people to get excited to vote for them.
This is certainly a part of it. In a time when Democrats should be uniting and putting forward their strongest faces to protect democracy from the GOP, they keep engaging in political gamesmanship because ‘c’mon look at this clown, there’s no way anyone will vote for him!’
Only problem is that people have, and people could once more, put this guy in the White House. And if it happens…well, everything’s fucked.
There's no representation of the left in American politics, there's leftist but no political power of a left movement. The closest thing is the recent wave of workers unionization efforts which is at least encouraging.
Lol. If you say so.
I do. Where is the good Dem candidate with the platform attacking high cost of living, corporate takeover of housing, backing unions, and looking at funding education, ubi, etc?
It's be pretty easy to break this wide open and runaway with the election. If they wanted to.
The Dems aren't going to run someone who attacks the economic base of the party is what it comes down to.
Downballot Democratic candidates? That's where.
David Brooks wrote a good article in the New York Times today that tries to help shift perspectives a bit to understand this. I'd highly recommend reading it.
That is the farthest thing from a good article that I've read in some time. I suppose that it does give some insights to why trumpers act the way they do, however trying to align their actions with some sort of 'we the elitists need to do a better job at not being elitist' mentality is rather dumb at first glance, and a bit insidious upon closer examination.
To me it was helpful in trying to understand the perspective from which a group derive their actions. Much like you said. Usually a good first step in dealing with interpersonal conflict is to make an attempt to understand the other perspective.
The end does seem to wander a bit, but I think there's some truth in the general premise that a large group of people feel left behind (in various ways for various reasons).
The ideal that “we’re all in this together” was replaced with the reality that the educated class lives in a world up here, and everybody else is forced into a world down there. Members of our class are always publicly speaking out for the marginalized, but somehow we always end up building systems that serve ourselves.
I love how Brooks can talk about class without bringing labor into it. Just a great example of liberals missing the damn point.
Then he goes on to talk about "open immigration" like that's even close to what we have.
Yeah Brooks is one of those special kind of conservatives who seems to always miss the point in the most aspirational moralized way. Like he taught a class on "humility" that included readings of... himself. I also love his ever-Freudian book title "The Second Mountain" which is about how commitment to marriage is part of a fulfilling life... after he divorced his wife and married his younger assistant.
Got any free sources?
Seems 12ft.io doesn't work for NYT, but archive.is does:
Honest question, how can we ever get out of this? Is it just human nature for most of the population to not have critical thinking skills? Is it possible to reach a world where the majority of people have even just a little empathy?
It's just so sad. It's so clear to anyone even kinda paying attention that we possess the technical capacity as a society to meet everyone's needs and eliminate so much human-caused suffering at the detriment to absolutely nobody. We could be working toward a society where everyone has community, safety, security, opportunity. We could do so much if all we did was kind of give a shit about each other.
But no. Let's elect the guy who mocked a disabled reporter, encourages white supremacy, committed treason, etc.
Donald Trump is just a guy. A shitty guy, but just a guy. He's not what is ruining the world, but the fact that so many Americans want to vote for that shitty guy as president shows that a massive portion of the population is also just some shitty person, and fuck if that doesn't just burn up all my hope for this world.
Education is the only way to overcome this tsunami of stupidity and misinformation. But it’s slow and costly.
Conservatives with a capital "c" are not brainwashed; they're not tricked; they're not progressives who've been misinformed. Trump is who they are and what they want.
The Dominion discovery documents demonstrate that Fox News opinion hacks changed their coverage to appease the deplorables. In the case of the big lie, it was the viewers who radicalized right media, not the other way round. Maybe it's been that way the whole time?
The deplorables number in the millions. We need a plan to defeat and marginalize them in our democracy, not fantasies about changing what they are.
i’m not so sure it’s just evil people being evil
i think it’s just us vs them, which basically has roots in greed, power over others, etc
i think you could probably overturn those things with better instilled skills of long term planning, understanding of things like game theory (sometimes giving something to someone helps both of you! it’s not rewarding laziness: it can be selfish and humane)
i just think the reasoning here doesn’t go further than the initial emotion… there’s been no reinforcement that maybe your first reaction isn’t the right one
I'm going to go ahead and assume you're not from middle America. It's a lot more than just shitty people being shitty. This Cracked article from 2016 explains it quite well and I can assure you, as someone who was born and raised and now lives in Trump country, it still holds up. Add seven years of aggressive propaganda and intense radicalization and here we are now. The populist to fascist pipeline is almost complete.
Thanks for reminding me of how good David Wong used to be at capturing popular thought and placing you into a certain perspective. I might not agree with some of the generalizations of that article, but it does help understand their perspective.
They are scared and have been convinced that he is the only one that can help them. They are not just "shitty people voting for a shitty person" they really believe that the deep state is out to get Donald and these charges are overblown and that Donald will really save America. They won't realize that Trump only cares about Trump; even if Trump gets another term and burns down the government and fucks everyone they still will think Donald is just one week away from unveiling his plan to fix it all.
That ignorance makes them pretty shitty.
I'm not saying they're fundamentally and permanently shitty, but they are being shitty. Refusing to become a more aware person is shitty.
They are stupid and scared and propaganda is extra powerful on people who are stupid and scared.
And that is exactly my problem with that kind of thinking (or rather: believing). How did they arrive at such conclusions? Did Trump actually do ANYTHING to make their personal lives better even for a second? How many examples are there of Mr. Ivory Tower to make even an ounce of positive difference in the lives of rural folks?
So all I can see is a gullible people following the loudest talking head on a whim. It's really hard for me to feel pity, much less sympathy in this circumstance. Although pity is certainly appropriate.
Nationalism and nativism pops up every few generations. Always has. We beat it every time and it shuts up and the world dramatically improves for a while. As it improves, some people become nativists and nationalists, and the cycle repeats.
Google the "Know-Nothing Party." Trump isn't anything new at all.
Only problem is, just like a super hero, we have to win every time, and they only have to win once.
We shame them for being shitty. Don't engage them in debate, they are used to that. Don't try to use facts, because they don't care about facts. Don't try to convince them of shit.
Make them feel like outcasts and bad people. Brush off what they say when they say horrible shit. Make them have emotional responses to their shitty views. Conservative news targets these people by exploiting their emotions.
And vote. Vote for people who will fix our education system so that our next generation knows how to think for themselves.
That approach could work in the past, but it won't now. Now we have the internet when even people shamed by their family or neighbors will find support and like-minded individuals. We are only going to be more divided in the future.
Unfortunately, you are correct. We're doomed.
I once saw a comment where a guy said that before the internet, if someone wanted to fuck toasters and told anyone, he would be shamed and made fun of to the point where he'd never bring it up again.
With the internet, if someone wants to fuck a toaster, they can go online and find a while community of people who also enjoy fucking toasters, complete with guides and recommendations on the best toasters to fuck.
Its absurd, but it illustrates a great point. So yeah, we are fucked. Pandoras box is open.
I'm left of centre, and here's my take - the "left" is fucking up so badly that the right is going to win.
Ever play a sport and you just trounce your opponent, but the coach says "you weren't that good! They were just that bad tonight."
This is the same thing. Trump and the GOP aren't doing some amazing job of campaigning and manipulating, they're just up against the weakest opponent who can't stop scoring on their own fucking net.
First let me preface this by saying that I vote against Republicans as often as I get the chance to. Which on the rare occasion someone runs against them where I live. It is usually a democrat. So I am a staunch Ally of the Democrats. That being said.
I am left of center of what is generally considered left in the united states. The left isn't fucking anything up. The Left has been cut off from having a voice for nearly the last 100 years in the united States. Since at least McCarthy. What we've seen is a populous that has been beholden to an incestuous right wing relationship. Between two solidly right wing pro oligarch parties. Though to Liberal Democrats credit. They give lots of lip service to the concept of social democracy. And do eventually, once it no longer takes courage or bravery, do the right thing. Once they get tired of everyone shouting at them enough.
We need the economic tools we've spent the last hundred years vilifying. And we need a Resurgence of Education especially economic and political. People in the United States who think they are the left, and the way we are miseducated to define left are a joke. One that is crippling us and turning us against ourselves.
We need to rip and tear the largest corporations apart. We need to nationalize basic necessities. We need to abolish private or unaccountable funding of all elections that every level. And most of all we need to empower workers. It's only a start. But those are the things we have to do. And unfortunately my generation the Xers. All approaching 50 and 60 years old have largely abdicated and lost their chance to really impact or make a change. We need younger representatives in touch with what's going on now to write the laws that will lead us into the future. Instead of the regulations that will hold us in some nostalgically idealized past that never existed.
Yeah the idea Dems are left is hilarious to me, social democrats in the streets, neoliberal conservatives in the sheets. The last cry of the left as a concentrated political voice was contained in aspects of the civil rights movement, but those aspects, like MLK's socialist insistence on economic redistribution through class projects, and his identity as a labor organizer, is completely whitewashed. It's condensed to Rosa Parks sat on a bus, MLK had a dream, LBJ passed the law.
The Dems stop at disparity frameworks because that doesn't threaten the political economy in any meaningful way, as long as people are fucked over proportionately it's okay. Rising income inequality, lowered standards of living, eventually something has to give to keep this speculative real estate project of a country going.
One thing the political center lacks in America - and I say center because we don't have a truly leftist political party - is a vision for the future. They don't want a fundamental change in how the economy and government work, they just want to keep things steady and work around the edges.
The problem is the economy and government aren't working for most people and most people want them replaced.
Republicans have a vision. Yeah, it's a racist, sexist vision that will drag us back to the 1950s, but it's a vision they can communicate.
What's the Democrats' vision? I don't think it's mine, of worker cooperatives and high speed rail and free education and universal health care, paid for by shaking Bezos and Musk upside down until no more money comes out. As far as I can tell they just want to keep things going like they have since the 90s.
And then they wonder why they can't seem to get people to get excited to vote for them.
This is certainly a part of it. In a time when Democrats should be uniting and putting forward their strongest faces to protect democracy from the GOP, they keep engaging in political gamesmanship because ‘c’mon look at this clown, there’s no way anyone will vote for him!’
Only problem is that people have, and people could once more, put this guy in the White House. And if it happens…well, everything’s fucked.
There's no representation of the left in American politics, there's leftist but no political power of a left movement. The closest thing is the recent wave of workers unionization efforts which is at least encouraging.
Lol. If you say so.
I do. Where is the good Dem candidate with the platform attacking high cost of living, corporate takeover of housing, backing unions, and looking at funding education, ubi, etc?
It's be pretty easy to break this wide open and runaway with the election. If they wanted to.
The Dems aren't going to run someone who attacks the economic base of the party is what it comes down to.
Downballot Democratic candidates? That's where.
David Brooks wrote a good article in the New York Times today that tries to help shift perspectives a bit to understand this. I'd highly recommend reading it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/opinion/trump-meritocracy-educated.html
That is the farthest thing from a good article that I've read in some time. I suppose that it does give some insights to why trumpers act the way they do, however trying to align their actions with some sort of 'we the elitists need to do a better job at not being elitist' mentality is rather dumb at first glance, and a bit insidious upon closer examination.
To me it was helpful in trying to understand the perspective from which a group derive their actions. Much like you said. Usually a good first step in dealing with interpersonal conflict is to make an attempt to understand the other perspective. The end does seem to wander a bit, but I think there's some truth in the general premise that a large group of people feel left behind (in various ways for various reasons).
I love how Brooks can talk about class without bringing labor into it. Just a great example of liberals missing the damn point.
Then he goes on to talk about "open immigration" like that's even close to what we have.
Yeah Brooks is one of those special kind of conservatives who seems to always miss the point in the most aspirational moralized way. Like he taught a class on "humility" that included readings of... himself. I also love his ever-Freudian book title "The Second Mountain" which is about how commitment to marriage is part of a fulfilling life... after he divorced his wife and married his younger assistant.
Got any free sources?
Seems 12ft.io doesn't work for NYT, but archive.is does:
https://archive.is/r8L9I