I grew up next door to a sovcit family and witnessed their descent into madness. They think they have all of these loopholes and they only end up ruining not only their lives but the lives of their children too.
This family had a house that is now worth well over $500k and they lost it for $0. The son spent over a year in jail because he and his dad claimed you only needed drivers license if you were engaged in commerce and then got busted driving without a license IN HIS LANDSCAPING COMPANY VEHICLES.
SovCit is Harry Potter fantasy for far-right nerds.
They are desperately searching for the right combination of words to create some legal incantation that makes them immune to the law.
Omigod.
So your vote is mental illness over gullible fool?
I don't know that they really threaten the rule of law, since none of their bullshit ever actually works (especially as people become more aware of their specific brand of nonsense). I think the bigger issue is that quite a few of them will resort to violence, so they're more of a threat to other people.
I don't know that they really threaten the rule of law, since none of their bullshit ever actually works
This is the part that puzzled me - how can a movement like this continue to grow without any success stories whatsoever? It doesn't make sense. Until I realized there's a whole industry setup to drift these idiots out of their money. You can buy a sovcit passport, sovcit drivers licenses, all manner of stuff. None of it is worth as much as the paper it's printed on, but they pay anyways.
It's a whole industry designed to convince [stupid] people that if they just say the right combination of words, they get to selectively exist withing society and skirt rules.
A lot of them are also desperate. Plenty of people find their way to sovcit stuff because they're in legal trouble of some kind that they don't know how to handle, and everyone tells them they just need to face the consequences. Sovcits tell them actually, the government is wrong, they shouldn't be in trouble at all, and if they just file these papers and say these words, it'll all go away. I can see how people who aren't great critical thinkers can get sucked into that.
how can a movement like this continue to grow without any success stories whatsoever?
Because they all believed in jade-helm, FEMA concentration camps, and Obama was gonna take their guns despite none of those things happening. Then when none of those things actually happen they continue to get information from the same sources who lied to them about all those things.
It's like they are trying to disengage from reality using the shared momentum of their collective belief.
Paper terrorism is probably the best way to explain it. They will bombard courts, banks and civil services (ie- utilities, child support payments) with pages and pages of useless documents and waste hours of people's time on the phone, in person, or by mail.
Combine that with the belief that no response is acceptance and rejections are based on lies, you get the most aggressive and ignorant people that make Karen's seem pleasant.
Oh I know. I worked in child support enforcement for a minute and now work in an office that takes passport applications. Thankfully, the Department of State's stance is that we don't need to argue about it, they'll deal with it on their end, so it's a lot less confrontational, but I had a guy on a child support case that was clearly getting advice from sovcit forums and he was a headache and a half.
I took June off of Facebook because I'm sick of homophobia for Pride but I think I'll go back on my alt and check it out again because they're just too funny.
You can take a break if you want lmao
They amuse me a lot. The rest of Facebook does not. So I'll clean her up. They're way too funny, like how do you think you're paying for a house with a silver coin?
that's silly, you need a silver coin AND a form, with your name in ALL CAPS.
You just gotta have that M E N T A L I L L N E S S
A friend of mine works at a title company and one of these sovereign citizens tried to purchase a home recently. They tried to use all homemade documents for their identification and financial statements, repeatedly. They refused to produce any genuine documents and became increasingly angry when told that they would have to regardless of their personal views on government and it's laws. It drug on for months, until finally they had to threaten to call the police if this person showed up angrily demanding that exceptions be made. In the end they obviously were not able to purchase the home they were attempting to buy.
Ive never heard anyone use drug as the past tense for drag but I like it
I had to look it up because I did it without even thinking, and it appears to be a regional thing. I just use them both interchangeably, I never considered that others don't lol
They sometimes try to mail in silver coins to pay for their houses.
My question would have to be, was this person attempting to get a loan for the house? Because if so, I can understand where they would need financial statements and identification. But if the person walked in with the cash to buy the place, free and clear, then I don't see why it should be a problem.
It's called a proof of funds and it's used to ensure that the buyer has sufficient money to complete the transaction. It was a cash transaction and as I understand it they brought a picture of money and precious metals and a home made ID card
Right, and if the proof of funds is you say that the house cost this much money and the person pulls that much money out of their wallet or whatever and hands it to you, that's proof.
The article has a weirdly alarmist tone to it.
Yes, there are a bunch of people claiming to know loopholes in the law through which they don't need a license to drive and the county sheriff (who will absolutely arrest them for driving without a license) is the supreme authority. A few of them will resist the police with violence. People unsuccessfully advancing crackpot legal theories and a few isolated incidents of fighting the police are not a threat to the rule of law.
It is an odd tone. So much "I learned" and "I found out." It comes off as a youthful essay.
Good point. It's not news that "you learned" something. What is your conclusion?. What is your reasoning? If it's been said before, we can just read that.
They didn't even bring up the actual alarming issue of sheriff's who think they are the supreme authority of the land either. Very weird article, it's like someone missed an entire decade.
"Threaten the rule of law" is what SovCits would like to think their movement is big enough to do.
Yeah I wouldn't say they threaten the law. The supreme court threatens the law. Sov cits just brake the law while convincing themselves its not illegal if they do it while weaking polka dots or something.
I’d expect them to be more often victims of scams than actually threaten the rule of law. It seems like a bunch of self-deluded morons turning life’s hardship into felonies.
Man it’s so difficult paying child support, maybe I better convict myself of a felony. Yeah, that will make life easier
My wife and I watch a lot of the videos on youtube from these people. And the videos make me wonder if a lot of these people are true believers or if they're so desperate for youtube views that they're willing to get a permanent criminal record for the privilege. The same goes for the "first amendment auditors" or whatever those morons call themselves.
First, they all read from the exact same script. Every time. Once you watch one or two of them, they become so predictable that you could recite them verbatim. Heck, some of them literally grab notes and start reading from their notes. To me, this sounds less like an ideology and more like a bunch of morons saying "All I have to do is say this to a cop and I'll get 50,000 viewers on Youtube too?!?!? Sign me up!!!"
Second, they lose. Every time. But they still post their own videos. Why the hell would you spout SovCit nonsense, fail in spectacular fashion, and then post the video anyway? And then after that, why would you do it again and again? And why would you keep posting the videos, unless all you wanted was the attention?
Ever notice how these "sovereign citizens" only become "sovereign citizens" only after they have their licenses suspended, typically after multiple driving infractions, drug arrests, and DUIs? Funny how they "see the light" and use being a SovCit as justification to drive after they've burnt through all their legal options.
And then there's the fact that they literally advertise that they're breaking the law with those "Not for Hire" bumper stickers and the fake "TRVLR" or "PRIVATE" license plates. If the real goal is to just "travel" from point A to B undisturbed, why the hell are you essentially begging cops to pull you over by plastering this crap on your car?
And if they don't believe in US law, why do they pull over in the first place? If they think they're out of the reach of law enforcement, why are they pulling over for it? Why are they showing up to court cases if they feel the courts are invalid? Why are they using the (mostly fake) US Supreme Court cases they keep citing if they think the entire court system is invalid and doesn't apply to them anyway?
I could go on and on, because literally nothing about SovCits or 1A "auditors" makes the first bit of sense. But you get the idea. Maybe it's just me, but I see the SovCit movement as little more than a whole bunch of low-IQ morons who figure "Hey, I've already got a criminal record, what do I have to lose at this point?" and are just doing this for the Youtube views and whatever extra cash that generates.
I'd love to hear the viewpoints of anyone who's had to actually deal with these people in real life. Are these people true believers, or are they just in it for the attention?
I have to believe most of them are scammers and attention/seekers trying to fleece a relatively few gullible fools
Don't lump 1st amendment auditors with sovcits. 1a auditors believe in the constitution and are trying to show how police forces abuse the rights of the people.
Sovcits are selfish and delusional pedants who try to weasel out of the responsibilities of belonging to a society.
I would hardly count these people as "believers in the constitution" or exposing "how police forces abuse the rights of the people."
These people are simply hiding behind their twisted interpretation of the first amendment to justify harassing people for youtube views.
Every group has their assholes, I've seen plenty of them. But I've also seen plenty where the individual was being harassed or unlawfully detained or worse doing nothing more than practicing their constitutional rights.
My favorite is the guy walking around a police station parking lot video taping and photographing the vehicles. I don't remember if anyone confronts him beforehand, but the Chief comes out and basically offers to give the guy a tour, he understands he's not breaking any laws, etc.
Either way, there are legitimate first amendment auditors. I've never heard of a legitimate or successful sovereign citizen.
"threaten rule of law"
I mean.... Only if you let them get away with shit.
I am the Sovcit queen of Lemmy. But also I read a lot of Canadian legal cases, where they are referred to as pseudolaw. This one leaves me absolutely helpless with mirth.
I mean, this seems like a subgroup of a subgroup. However, I can at least sympathize with their points about no longer wishing to be under the yoke of the United States dictatorship. We're not there yet, but that's damn sure where we're headed.
Edit: Personally, I am doing my part by no longer seeing their money as valuable and trading that shit for something real as soon as I get a hold of it and only keeping enough of it around to pay for something I need from some fool in an emergency.
under the yoke of the United States dictatorship
Just don't repeat the 2016 election fiasco and you have a chance to fix the other stuff. Otherwise, the border wall is almost done so come north while you can. It's mainly a trench filled with angrier geese, but we were stuck with them after they ate the alligators.
Trading it for what, gold? The dollar isn’t going anywhere
A combination of things, some real estate, some gold, some cryptocurrency. The dollar is losing value every second of every day by at least a little bit. And I don't see a reason to hold wealth in a depreciating asset. It's just a form of tax that all normal people have to pay while people who have assets don't have to. Which is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Stop the inflation and you stop the impoverishment.
Well obviously you don’t just sit on cash. That’s the whole idea of present value. Inflation, to a small extent, is good. It also happens to literally every currency.
But inflation doesn't have to be a thing. Currentsies don't have to inflate. Back in Rome, you could buy a tailored suit and a pair of shoes for a ounce of gold. Today, you can go by a tuxedo and a pair of shoes for an ounce of gold. So in terms of gold, the price of items has not changed significantly in a very, very long time.
Inflation does need to be a thing for a healthy economy. If we only used gold, things would stagnate.
That's okay. Things will be purchased as they are needed. It's not like because we used gold. I wouldn't need toilet paper or a new laptop or a new phone. I would still need to purchase those things at some point. It would improve lending practices as well because people wouldn't be lending trying to outpace inflation with a return. They would lend less, for sure, but people would also save money more so they would need fewer loans.
I grew up next door to a sovcit family and witnessed their descent into madness. They think they have all of these loopholes and they only end up ruining not only their lives but the lives of their children too.
This family had a house that is now worth well over $500k and they lost it for $0. The son spent over a year in jail because he and his dad claimed you only needed drivers license if you were engaged in commerce and then got busted driving without a license IN HIS LANDSCAPING COMPANY VEHICLES.
SovCit is Harry Potter fantasy for far-right nerds.
They are desperately searching for the right combination of words to create some legal incantation that makes them immune to the law.
Omigod.
So your vote is mental illness over gullible fool?
I don't know that they really threaten the rule of law, since none of their bullshit ever actually works (especially as people become more aware of their specific brand of nonsense). I think the bigger issue is that quite a few of them will resort to violence, so they're more of a threat to other people.
This is the part that puzzled me - how can a movement like this continue to grow without any success stories whatsoever? It doesn't make sense. Until I realized there's a whole industry setup to drift these idiots out of their money. You can buy a sovcit passport, sovcit drivers licenses, all manner of stuff. None of it is worth as much as the paper it's printed on, but they pay anyways.
It's a whole industry designed to convince [stupid] people that if they just say the right combination of words, they get to selectively exist withing society and skirt rules.
A lot of them are also desperate. Plenty of people find their way to sovcit stuff because they're in legal trouble of some kind that they don't know how to handle, and everyone tells them they just need to face the consequences. Sovcits tell them actually, the government is wrong, they shouldn't be in trouble at all, and if they just file these papers and say these words, it'll all go away. I can see how people who aren't great critical thinkers can get sucked into that.
Because they all believed in jade-helm, FEMA concentration camps, and Obama was gonna take their guns despite none of those things happening. Then when none of those things actually happen they continue to get information from the same sources who lied to them about all those things.
It's like they are trying to disengage from reality using the shared momentum of their collective belief.
Paper terrorism is probably the best way to explain it. They will bombard courts, banks and civil services (ie- utilities, child support payments) with pages and pages of useless documents and waste hours of people's time on the phone, in person, or by mail.
Combine that with the belief that no response is acceptance and rejections are based on lies, you get the most aggressive and ignorant people that make Karen's seem pleasant.
Oh I know. I worked in child support enforcement for a minute and now work in an office that takes passport applications. Thankfully, the Department of State's stance is that we don't need to argue about it, they'll deal with it on their end, so it's a lot less confrontational, but I had a guy on a child support case that was clearly getting advice from sovcit forums and he was a headache and a half.
For some examples of sov cuts, check out !insanepeoplefacebook@lemmy.world there are a good number of screenshot/posts.
@BonesoftheMoon@lemmy.world and @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world out here doing God's work.
I took June off of Facebook because I'm sick of homophobia for Pride but I think I'll go back on my alt and check it out again because they're just too funny.
You can take a break if you want lmao
They amuse me a lot. The rest of Facebook does not. So I'll clean her up. They're way too funny, like how do you think you're paying for a house with a silver coin?
that's silly, you need a silver coin AND a form, with your name in ALL CAPS.
You just gotta have that M E N T A L I L L N E S S
A friend of mine works at a title company and one of these sovereign citizens tried to purchase a home recently. They tried to use all homemade documents for their identification and financial statements, repeatedly. They refused to produce any genuine documents and became increasingly angry when told that they would have to regardless of their personal views on government and it's laws. It drug on for months, until finally they had to threaten to call the police if this person showed up angrily demanding that exceptions be made. In the end they obviously were not able to purchase the home they were attempting to buy.
Ive never heard anyone use drug as the past tense for drag but I like it
I had to look it up because I did it without even thinking, and it appears to be a regional thing. I just use them both interchangeably, I never considered that others don't lol
What region would that be?
Texas
Cool
They sometimes try to mail in silver coins to pay for their houses.
My question would have to be, was this person attempting to get a loan for the house? Because if so, I can understand where they would need financial statements and identification. But if the person walked in with the cash to buy the place, free and clear, then I don't see why it should be a problem.
It's called a proof of funds and it's used to ensure that the buyer has sufficient money to complete the transaction. It was a cash transaction and as I understand it they brought a picture of money and precious metals and a home made ID card
Right, and if the proof of funds is you say that the house cost this much money and the person pulls that much money out of their wallet or whatever and hands it to you, that's proof.
The article has a weirdly alarmist tone to it.
Yes, there are a bunch of people claiming to know loopholes in the law through which they don't need a license to drive and the county sheriff (who will absolutely arrest them for driving without a license) is the supreme authority. A few of them will resist the police with violence. People unsuccessfully advancing crackpot legal theories and a few isolated incidents of fighting the police are not a threat to the rule of law.
It is an odd tone. So much "I learned" and "I found out." It comes off as a youthful essay.
Good point. It's not news that "you learned" something. What is your conclusion?. What is your reasoning? If it's been said before, we can just read that.
They didn't even bring up the actual alarming issue of sheriff's who think they are the supreme authority of the land either. Very weird article, it's like someone missed an entire decade.
"Threaten the rule of law" is what SovCits would like to think their movement is big enough to do.
Yeah I wouldn't say they threaten the law. The supreme court threatens the law. Sov cits just brake the law while convincing themselves its not illegal if they do it while weaking polka dots or something.
I’d expect them to be more often victims of scams than actually threaten the rule of law. It seems like a bunch of self-deluded morons turning life’s hardship into felonies.
Man it’s so difficult paying child support, maybe I better convict myself of a felony. Yeah, that will make life easier
My wife and I watch a lot of the videos on youtube from these people. And the videos make me wonder if a lot of these people are true believers or if they're so desperate for youtube views that they're willing to get a permanent criminal record for the privilege. The same goes for the "first amendment auditors" or whatever those morons call themselves.
First, they all read from the exact same script. Every time. Once you watch one or two of them, they become so predictable that you could recite them verbatim. Heck, some of them literally grab notes and start reading from their notes. To me, this sounds less like an ideology and more like a bunch of morons saying "All I have to do is say this to a cop and I'll get 50,000 viewers on Youtube too?!?!? Sign me up!!!"
Second, they lose. Every time. But they still post their own videos. Why the hell would you spout SovCit nonsense, fail in spectacular fashion, and then post the video anyway? And then after that, why would you do it again and again? And why would you keep posting the videos, unless all you wanted was the attention?
Ever notice how these "sovereign citizens" only become "sovereign citizens" only after they have their licenses suspended, typically after multiple driving infractions, drug arrests, and DUIs? Funny how they "see the light" and use being a SovCit as justification to drive after they've burnt through all their legal options.
And then there's the fact that they literally advertise that they're breaking the law with those "Not for Hire" bumper stickers and the fake "TRVLR" or "PRIVATE" license plates. If the real goal is to just "travel" from point A to B undisturbed, why the hell are you essentially begging cops to pull you over by plastering this crap on your car?
And if they don't believe in US law, why do they pull over in the first place? If they think they're out of the reach of law enforcement, why are they pulling over for it? Why are they showing up to court cases if they feel the courts are invalid? Why are they using the (mostly fake) US Supreme Court cases they keep citing if they think the entire court system is invalid and doesn't apply to them anyway?
I could go on and on, because literally nothing about SovCits or 1A "auditors" makes the first bit of sense. But you get the idea. Maybe it's just me, but I see the SovCit movement as little more than a whole bunch of low-IQ morons who figure "Hey, I've already got a criminal record, what do I have to lose at this point?" and are just doing this for the Youtube views and whatever extra cash that generates.
I'd love to hear the viewpoints of anyone who's had to actually deal with these people in real life. Are these people true believers, or are they just in it for the attention?
I have to believe most of them are scammers and attention/seekers trying to fleece a relatively few gullible fools
Don't lump 1st amendment auditors with sovcits. 1a auditors believe in the constitution and are trying to show how police forces abuse the rights of the people.
Sovcits are selfish and delusional pedants who try to weasel out of the responsibilities of belonging to a society.
I would hardly count these people as "believers in the constitution" or exposing "how police forces abuse the rights of the people."
https://youtu.be/gPgo1N53fH0?si=yRgVbNQ5eeAz_RS_
https://youtu.be/uPrKYXnwORc?si=9580elfeT26-X658
https://youtu.be/oGocHyc4QRw?si=VFcxyS-bSPZVe0c8
These people are simply hiding behind their twisted interpretation of the first amendment to justify harassing people for youtube views.
Every group has their assholes, I've seen plenty of them. But I've also seen plenty where the individual was being harassed or unlawfully detained or worse doing nothing more than practicing their constitutional rights.
My favorite is the guy walking around a police station parking lot video taping and photographing the vehicles. I don't remember if anyone confronts him beforehand, but the Chief comes out and basically offers to give the guy a tour, he understands he's not breaking any laws, etc.
Either way, there are legitimate first amendment auditors. I've never heard of a legitimate or successful sovereign citizen.
"threaten rule of law"
I mean.... Only if you let them get away with shit.
I am the Sovcit queen of Lemmy. But also I read a lot of Canadian legal cases, where they are referred to as pseudolaw. This one leaves me absolutely helpless with mirth.
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abkb/doc/2023/2023abkb518/2023abkb518.html?resultIndex=14&resultId=4efdf0b8e7d2477e8b83f68ca1eb301c&searchId=2024-06-06T12:58:51:396/93aaec1cc0d64d3a8d861a67bbf2a2dc&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAKUHNldWRvbGF3IAAAAAAB
they shoot a lot of people: cops, each other, innocent bystanders.
Just send 2 army guys to conquer them.
What would the second guy be doing?
He's just there so history books can say they used an army twice the size of the opposition.
This is relevant to this discussion. Here is what the normal people who don't kill others think.
https://www.monerotalk.live/monerotalk-315
Personally, I fall into this camp.
I mean, this seems like a subgroup of a subgroup. However, I can at least sympathize with their points about no longer wishing to be under the yoke of the United States dictatorship. We're not there yet, but that's damn sure where we're headed.
Edit: Personally, I am doing my part by no longer seeing their money as valuable and trading that shit for something real as soon as I get a hold of it and only keeping enough of it around to pay for something I need from some fool in an emergency.
Just don't repeat the 2016 election fiasco and you have a chance to fix the other stuff. Otherwise, the border wall is almost done so come north while you can. It's mainly a trench filled with angrier geese, but we were stuck with them after they ate the alligators.
Trading it for what, gold? The dollar isn’t going anywhere
A combination of things, some real estate, some gold, some cryptocurrency. The dollar is losing value every second of every day by at least a little bit. And I don't see a reason to hold wealth in a depreciating asset. It's just a form of tax that all normal people have to pay while people who have assets don't have to. Which is why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Stop the inflation and you stop the impoverishment.
Well obviously you don’t just sit on cash. That’s the whole idea of present value. Inflation, to a small extent, is good. It also happens to literally every currency.
But inflation doesn't have to be a thing. Currentsies don't have to inflate. Back in Rome, you could buy a tailored suit and a pair of shoes for a ounce of gold. Today, you can go by a tuxedo and a pair of shoes for an ounce of gold. So in terms of gold, the price of items has not changed significantly in a very, very long time.
Inflation does need to be a thing for a healthy economy. If we only used gold, things would stagnate.
That's okay. Things will be purchased as they are needed. It's not like because we used gold. I wouldn't need toilet paper or a new laptop or a new phone. I would still need to purchase those things at some point. It would improve lending practices as well because people wouldn't be lending trying to outpace inflation with a return. They would lend less, for sure, but people would also save money more so they would need fewer loans.