Israel wanted this to happen. The US wasn't the only warning they got.
And the civilians are the ones who suffer.
Israel
No, the Netanyahu regime wanted it to happen. We hold leaders responsible for their own decisions, rather than blaming a nationality.
I agree with you. I do.
But where the hell does that logic go when it's not American political allies in the firing line?
When Saddam allegedly had WMDs and Al-Qaida did 9/11, why were all Muslims everywhere suddenly terrorists?
When COVID was allegedly sourced from a lab in China, why were all Chinese people being targeted, attacked and killed on US streets?
Now that we're talking about Israel, everyone's suddenly so protective of exactly who the fingers should be pointed at. Saddam never did have WMDs. The upper echelons of Saudi Arabia were behind 911. There's no proof that COVID came from a lab in China, but those generalisations are often justified, because "look at how many they've killed!".
I agree with you, that it really is Netenyahu's regime that wants this. There are many, many Israeli's all over the world who are condemning Israel's actions in this war, in much the same way that Muslims have spoken out against terrorism for years, and Chinese people called for the hate crimes to cease.
why were all Muslims everywhere suddenly terrorists?
They weren't. The people who said they were, were being shitty people.
why were all Chinese people being targeted, attacked and killed on US streets?
This was actually really rare, and while it was terrible where it happened, it's a mistake to pretend that it was at all common, typical, or accepted.
As an analogy that may be even more contentious: Rape happens. It's bad. When it does, it's usually a man raping a woman. But it's a mistake to say that all men rape all women; and anyone saying that men are all rapists is expressing their own trauma, not the truth.
People are real. Nations and other interest groups are kinda fake.
Because of ignorant hateful people who exist in every part of the world. Remember, there were a lot of Americans against the war. Same fucking racism exists everywhere. How many countries are run by the native population? The problem is the inbred old wealth. The few groups of people across the world convincing people who are not wealthy that the poor are the problem.
Information is a lot easier to come by nowadays. When Saddam allegedly had WMDs and Al-Qaida did 9/11, most people were still getting newspapers and watching the evening news on TV. If you wanted to hear viewpoints outside of the MSM you had to really dig for them.
You might have a point if the majority of Israelis didn't keep voting for the fucker.
Dude. My country elected Donald Trump, but that doesn't make me a Cheeto.
This is a valid point, but to be fair, the majority of Americans didn't vote for Donald Trump
And only 23 percent of Israelis voting in the last elections voted for Netanyahu.
That's only half as much as Trump got in the popular vote in 2016.
More importantly, more voters who actually voted voted for the other candidate.
I said "keep voting", the majority see nothing wrong with Bibi's treatment of the Palestinians, although they'll be calling for blood after his failure to keep them safe.
The US kicked the tires on a Trump presidency and decided one term was more than enough.
Actually, we impeached him twice because of how bad he was.
I mean to be fair a majority of Americans never elected Donald Trump but because some people votes literally matter more than others he still won the election
Your country has been a long time ally and supporter of Israel. Almost all voters consistently choose parties which support this. It's one of the justifications Bin Laden gave for 9/11.
I know this is controversial in some parts of the fediverse, but I don't agree with groups like Al Qaeda.
I find it shocking how often you'll read comments echoing that logic, and suggesting that civilians deserve to die for the crimes of their government or leader, simply because they were born on the wrong side of a border.
23.41% of the electorate voted for Likud in the last election.
The right wing bloc led by Netenyahu did not win a majority of votes in the election either.
In part due to a rule change, a few smaller anti-Netenyahu parties didn't gain enough votes to meet the electoral threshold, which is why Netenyahu's bloc gained a majority in the Knesset despite gaining less than 50% of the vote.
Israelis have been voting for increasingly far right politicians for years. The plain truth is that many of them are extremely comfortable with their government's brutal treatment of the Palestinians. I'm certainly not attacking every Israeli voter, many don't support their countries' policies but enough do for it to continue.
You said that a majority of Israelis voted for Netenyahu. This is not true.
The plain truth is that many of them are extremely comfortable with their government’s brutal treatment of the Palestinians.
Earlier today I decided to read some opinion pieces in Haareetz. I kept reading comments similar to yours, and was wondering what actual Israelis think. Hareetz is a paper of record and luckily also available in English.
I'll copy paste a few excerpts I found interesting. Hope you do to.
Article makes it sound like they expected just the typical barrage of rockets rather than the invasion that occurred. I’m not convinced this is evidence Israel wanted the attack - with the Iron Dome they likely had sufficient protections against rockets. Neither this nor the reported Egyptian warning appear to have provided details to make one expect what was essentially a ground invasion.
Works out well for the US and their military contractors. I guess it was just another bit of good business in the capitalist haven of America.
we literally warn them
"Clearly the US wanted this"
We have enough sins in our past of intentionally not warning governments, and enough in our present of mealy-mouthed "Oh, well, Israel is just defending itself" without having to add false charges to the pile.
Those assessments, if true, were certainty shared with the Israelis. Problem is that there is no actionable intelligence, but certainly Israel could have moved up its security posture. The same thing happened on 9/11 when Rice was advised and did nothing to upgrade security as she was NSA.
For some governments they view the break out of violence as an opportunity.
There is no justification for terrorism. There is no justification for a government wishing violence on its citizens. Both of these concepts should be easy to agree with.
You forgot about money and racism, which is all the justification that Netanyahu and his ghouls need.
Wait, I'm confused. Can you tell me though which of the sides is "my people?" Then I'll know whether it's justified.
/s :-(
The same thing happened on 9/11 when Rice was advised and did nothing to upgrade security as she was NSA.
Yeah but even if the US had decided to increase security, I doubt it would have really prevented highjackers from seizing the planes.
The biggest difference is that netanyahus failed to move security forces back to the border, keeping them preoccupied with protecting the illegal settlements. More than likely this wouldn't have been possible, or at least nearly as bad if the current administration wasn't so fixated on the settlements.
Arguably, preventing violence against illegal settlers is a higher priority for the Netanyahu regime than preventing violence against innocent civilians, because illegal settlers are reliable Netanyahu supporters and innocent civilians are not.
It's standard neofascist strategy. Trump, Modi, Orban, Putin, etc. would do the same.
That's kinda my theory as well, his regime and Hamas are codependent on each other being willing to escalate violence to maintain their hold on power.
I believe that bibi probably thought there would eventually be some escalation that he could utilize to consolidate power, I just don't think it was going to be quite as large or effective.
Used to travel quite a lot. Before 9/11 when you landed in say Germany you would get eyes on you from the time you left the plane. There was always security with machine guns. Don't know if that would have given al Queida pause, but it would have been something instead of nothing.
As for Bibi, he'll be gone as soon as the war is over. It's happened before in Israel.
Used to travel quite a lot. Before 9/11 when you landed in say Germany you would get eyes on you from the time you left the plane. There was always security with machine guns. Don't know if that would have given al Queida pause, but it would have been something instead of nothing.
Really? I'm an old fart as well, and I don't ever recall ever seeing security armed with machine guns pre 9/11, especially in Europe.
Though I guess it depends on how far back you're talking. If it's early 90's or late 80s it might make more sense, there were more than a couple odd terrorist groups active in the western part of Germany back then that may have juiced up security.
Lived in Germany in the 80s, flew in and out of the Frankfurt airport every year. There was a bombing there in 85, and for years after that there were people with automatic weapons in the airport.
We flew out of Frankfurt a couple days after the bombing. It was a bit tense.
I think things changed after the 72 Munich Olympics. The subtle part was the cleaning crew that always seemed to be cleaning your gate and giving you the once over. The not so subtle part was fully strapped security officers. I suppose things might of changed with the travel databases.
Ahh, yea the 70s to about mid 80s was the golden age of plane highjacking. Your visit may have been after the Lufthansa highjacking in 77' by the PLO. Germany had a massive increase in security after that lasted until the early 90s.
The last time I was in Germany pre 9/11 was around 97 I think? They had relaxed on the security by then, at least for transatlantic flights. Sometimes I forget how crazy the late 80s and early 90a were in Europe.
Worse, they actually lowered security because their soldiers were too busy evicting and killing civilians in the West Bank.
None of the American assessments offered any tactical details or indications of the overwhelming scope, scale and sheer brutality of the operation that Hamas carried out on October 7, sources say.
But the assessments were among a wave of high-level warnings given to the Biden administration by both its own intelligence community and Middle Eastern allies over the past year, raising questions about whether the US and Israel were appropriately attuned to the risk.
A Middle Eastern ambassador in Washington, DC, also told CNN that their government had repeatedly warned the White House and US intelligence officials of a buildup of Hamas weapons and anger among Palestinians that was set to explode.
But US officials also believe that Israel had become complacent about the threat Hamas posed and failed to recognize key indicators that the group was planning for a large-scale operation.
Israel believed that its policy of offering work permits to Gazans and allowed Qatari money into the country had given Hamas something to lose — and lulled the group into quiescence.
“Hamas is very, very restrained and understands the implications of further defiance,” Tzachi Hanegbi, Israel’s national security adviser, told an Israeli radio channel six days before the assault.
The original article contains 1,278 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 84%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Israel wanted this to happen. The US wasn't the only warning they got.
And the civilians are the ones who suffer.
No, the Netanyahu regime wanted it to happen. We hold leaders responsible for their own decisions, rather than blaming a nationality.
I agree with you. I do.
But where the hell does that logic go when it's not American political allies in the firing line?
When Saddam allegedly had WMDs and Al-Qaida did 9/11, why were all Muslims everywhere suddenly terrorists?
When COVID was allegedly sourced from a lab in China, why were all Chinese people being targeted, attacked and killed on US streets?
Now that we're talking about Israel, everyone's suddenly so protective of exactly who the fingers should be pointed at. Saddam never did have WMDs. The upper echelons of Saudi Arabia were behind 911. There's no proof that COVID came from a lab in China, but those generalisations are often justified, because "look at how many they've killed!".
I agree with you, that it really is Netenyahu's regime that wants this. There are many, many Israeli's all over the world who are condemning Israel's actions in this war, in much the same way that Muslims have spoken out against terrorism for years, and Chinese people called for the hate crimes to cease.
They weren't. The people who said they were, were being shitty people.
This was actually really rare, and while it was terrible where it happened, it's a mistake to pretend that it was at all common, typical, or accepted.
As an analogy that may be even more contentious: Rape happens. It's bad. When it does, it's usually a man raping a woman. But it's a mistake to say that all men rape all women; and anyone saying that men are all rapists is expressing their own trauma, not the truth.
People are real. Nations and other interest groups are kinda fake.
Because of ignorant hateful people who exist in every part of the world. Remember, there were a lot of Americans against the war. Same fucking racism exists everywhere. How many countries are run by the native population? The problem is the inbred old wealth. The few groups of people across the world convincing people who are not wealthy that the poor are the problem.
Information is a lot easier to come by nowadays. When Saddam allegedly had WMDs and Al-Qaida did 9/11, most people were still getting newspapers and watching the evening news on TV. If you wanted to hear viewpoints outside of the MSM you had to really dig for them.
You might have a point if the majority of Israelis didn't keep voting for the fucker.
Dude. My country elected Donald Trump, but that doesn't make me a Cheeto.
This is a valid point, but to be fair, the majority of Americans didn't vote for Donald Trump
And only 23 percent of Israelis voting in the last elections voted for Netanyahu.
That's only half as much as Trump got in the popular vote in 2016.
More importantly, more voters who actually voted voted for the other candidate.
I said "keep voting", the majority see nothing wrong with Bibi's treatment of the Palestinians, although they'll be calling for blood after his failure to keep them safe.
The US kicked the tires on a Trump presidency and decided one term was more than enough.
Actually, we impeached him twice because of how bad he was.
I mean to be fair a majority of Americans never elected Donald Trump but because some people votes literally matter more than others he still won the election
Your country has been a long time ally and supporter of Israel. Almost all voters consistently choose parties which support this. It's one of the justifications Bin Laden gave for 9/11.
I know this is controversial in some parts of the fediverse, but I don't agree with groups like Al Qaeda.
I find it shocking how often you'll read comments echoing that logic, and suggesting that civilians deserve to die for the crimes of their government or leader, simply because they were born on the wrong side of a border.
23.41% of the electorate voted for Likud in the last election.
The right wing bloc led by Netenyahu did not win a majority of votes in the election either.
In part due to a rule change, a few smaller anti-Netenyahu parties didn't gain enough votes to meet the electoral threshold, which is why Netenyahu's bloc gained a majority in the Knesset despite gaining less than 50% of the vote.
Israelis have been voting for increasingly far right politicians for years. The plain truth is that many of them are extremely comfortable with their government's brutal treatment of the Palestinians. I'm certainly not attacking every Israeli voter, many don't support their countries' policies but enough do for it to continue.
You said that a majority of Israelis voted for Netenyahu. This is not true.
Earlier today I decided to read some opinion pieces in Haareetz. I kept reading comments similar to yours, and was wondering what actual Israelis think. Hareetz is a paper of record and luckily also available in English.
I'll copy paste a few excerpts I found interesting. Hope you do to.
This:
Or this:
Article makes it sound like they expected just the typical barrage of rockets rather than the invasion that occurred. I’m not convinced this is evidence Israel wanted the attack - with the Iron Dome they likely had sufficient protections against rockets. Neither this nor the reported Egyptian warning appear to have provided details to make one expect what was essentially a ground invasion.
Works out well for the US and their military contractors. I guess it was just another bit of good business in the capitalist haven of America.
We have enough sins in our past of intentionally not warning governments, and enough in our present of mealy-mouthed "Oh, well, Israel is just defending itself" without having to add false charges to the pile.
As I wrote 8n another string...
Those assessments, if true, were certainty shared with the Israelis. Problem is that there is no actionable intelligence, but certainly Israel could have moved up its security posture. The same thing happened on 9/11 when Rice was advised and did nothing to upgrade security as she was NSA.
For some governments they view the break out of violence as an opportunity.
There is no justification for terrorism. There is no justification for a government wishing violence on its citizens. Both of these concepts should be easy to agree with.
You forgot about money and racism, which is all the justification that Netanyahu and his ghouls need.
Wait, I'm confused. Can you tell me though which of the sides is "my people?" Then I'll know whether it's justified.
/s :-(
Yeah but even if the US had decided to increase security, I doubt it would have really prevented highjackers from seizing the planes.
The biggest difference is that netanyahus failed to move security forces back to the border, keeping them preoccupied with protecting the illegal settlements. More than likely this wouldn't have been possible, or at least nearly as bad if the current administration wasn't so fixated on the settlements.
Arguably, preventing violence against illegal settlers is a higher priority for the Netanyahu regime than preventing violence against innocent civilians, because illegal settlers are reliable Netanyahu supporters and innocent civilians are not.
It's standard neofascist strategy. Trump, Modi, Orban, Putin, etc. would do the same.
That's kinda my theory as well, his regime and Hamas are codependent on each other being willing to escalate violence to maintain their hold on power.
I believe that bibi probably thought there would eventually be some escalation that he could utilize to consolidate power, I just don't think it was going to be quite as large or effective.
Used to travel quite a lot. Before 9/11 when you landed in say Germany you would get eyes on you from the time you left the plane. There was always security with machine guns. Don't know if that would have given al Queida pause, but it would have been something instead of nothing.
As for Bibi, he'll be gone as soon as the war is over. It's happened before in Israel.
Really? I'm an old fart as well, and I don't ever recall ever seeing security armed with machine guns pre 9/11, especially in Europe.
Though I guess it depends on how far back you're talking. If it's early 90's or late 80s it might make more sense, there were more than a couple odd terrorist groups active in the western part of Germany back then that may have juiced up security.
Lived in Germany in the 80s, flew in and out of the Frankfurt airport every year. There was a bombing there in 85, and for years after that there were people with automatic weapons in the airport.
We flew out of Frankfurt a couple days after the bombing. It was a bit tense.
I think things changed after the 72 Munich Olympics. The subtle part was the cleaning crew that always seemed to be cleaning your gate and giving you the once over. The not so subtle part was fully strapped security officers. I suppose things might of changed with the travel databases.
Ahh, yea the 70s to about mid 80s was the golden age of plane highjacking. Your visit may have been after the Lufthansa highjacking in 77' by the PLO. Germany had a massive increase in security after that lasted until the early 90s.
The last time I was in Germany pre 9/11 was around 97 I think? They had relaxed on the security by then, at least for transatlantic flights. Sometimes I forget how crazy the late 80s and early 90a were in Europe.
Worse, they actually lowered security because their soldiers were too busy evicting and killing civilians in the West Bank.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
None of the American assessments offered any tactical details or indications of the overwhelming scope, scale and sheer brutality of the operation that Hamas carried out on October 7, sources say.
But the assessments were among a wave of high-level warnings given to the Biden administration by both its own intelligence community and Middle Eastern allies over the past year, raising questions about whether the US and Israel were appropriately attuned to the risk.
A Middle Eastern ambassador in Washington, DC, also told CNN that their government had repeatedly warned the White House and US intelligence officials of a buildup of Hamas weapons and anger among Palestinians that was set to explode.
But US officials also believe that Israel had become complacent about the threat Hamas posed and failed to recognize key indicators that the group was planning for a large-scale operation.
Israel believed that its policy of offering work permits to Gazans and allowed Qatari money into the country had given Hamas something to lose — and lulled the group into quiescence.
“Hamas is very, very restrained and understands the implications of further defiance,” Tzachi Hanegbi, Israel’s national security adviser, told an Israeli radio channel six days before the assault.
The original article contains 1,278 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 84%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Benny is fucked.