Forty-one percent of Biden supporters say they believe people who support the Republican party and its ideologies have become “so extreme in what they want that it is acceptable to use violence to stop them from achieving their goals.” Likewise, 38 percent of Trump supporters say it is OK to use violence to stop Democrats from achieving their goals.
This poll seems very wrong. 41% of Biden supporters say it is acceptable to use violence to stop Trump supporters instead of democratic voting? And who put this out? The Hill?
Democrats can win in a democracy. It is the Republicans that want to rule us because democracy isn't working for them anymore.
Democrats: "It's okay to use violence to stop the overthrow of a democratically elected government."
Republicans: "It's okay to use violence to stop trangender bathrooms from teaching my kid critical race theory"
"It's okay to use violence to overthrow a democratically elected government" (this has been attempted once already, and its attempt is still being embraced by people who were themselves democratically elected), while also decrying anyone who would dare to physically stand in their way.
I think it's the notion that punching Nazis is not only acceptable, it's necessary. Democrats have not initiated widespread violence against democracy, not the way Republicans have embraced it. Democrats are preparing to defend themselves, and are waiting for Republicans to initiate another civil war.
Framing all Republicans as "Nazis" is a convenient way to dehumanize your opponents.
Not all Republicans are Nazis. But all Republicans are ok being part of the party that contains Nazis, and having beliefs that align with Nazis.
This says a lot about those people, no?
Associating with Nazis makes one a Nazi. It’s a binary.
Ahh, yes. The "nazi bar" argument.
There is no other party people like, say, Mitt Romney can turn to. He's not a Democrat and wouldn't be welcome by Democrat voters. Third party is typically non-viable for a politician in the US. So what do you do? This isn't a hypothetical. Quitting removes a moderate voice from the party that could be replaced with an extremist.
Ideally - yes I think there should be a third party for the whackos to separate them from the mainstream. The US should have at least 4 parties. But that's not an option right now. It's in both parties best interest that it remains that way.
As a start, they could denounce Nazis. Then they could figure out why their policies seem so attractive to Nazis, and change those policies. And they can seek to actively kick them out of their ranks.
And Romney is absolutely a Democrat nowadays. The only people who don't know that are his voters.
In case you weren't aware, there have been multiple party changes over the course of US history. The last one was when the Democratic and Republican parties kind of switched places through the mid-20th century. The political landscape is well-primed for the Republican party to split.
I am. But it would mean the short-term destruction of your own party since our "first past the post" election process would ensure that conservatives lose in large numbers. Unfortunately it could also mean the rise of MAGA over the traditional Republicans since Trump and others, who are very popular, would potentially sway lots of voters.
200 Republican representatives just voted to make a guy implicated in an attempt to overthrow an election their leader. The guy who encouraged and possibly orchestrated it is their leading presidential candidate. The party is MAGA, and in the process, nazifying. Its short-term destruction is better than supporting the rise of white supremacist fascism because you believe in lower taxes for business owners.
But it would mean the short-term destruction of your own party since our “first past the post” election process would ensure that conservatives lose in large numbers. Unfortunately it could also mean the rise of MAGA over the traditional Republicans ...
The fascists are here already. They support the Republican party. They have been voting fascists into office for years, using the Republican party to do so. They have demonstrated that they are willing to dismantle a functioning government that servers the people.
If a person still carries water for the Republican party, they are complicit. People of good conscience who have previously identified with the Republican party need to stop supporting it. Whether that means voting for Democrats or creating another party to align with doesn't matter. The choice for Republicans is now "embrace and support fascism" or "leave the Republican party."
Do you think any of that gets better if the traditionalists leave the Republican party?
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the term "traditionalists," but since I haven't landed on a better one, we'll use it.
Yes, I do. They would be taking their sociopolitical clout, and their votes, away from fascists. This deprives fascists of the power they currently enjoy as a result of latching onto the Republican party.
I dunno. The extremists would now win primaries and be closer to winning seats. Many people who vote "party" will just vote for the extremists instead.
Trump is the "party leader" - I feel like it would further legitimize the nuts. Not having a moderating influence in the party seems more bad to me...
Whatever moderating influence there might be, it has been shrinking for some time. It's all over but the shouting. The fascists are already growing stronger, and again, they're doing it with the cover of the Republican party - which, I might add, has built this monster over decades by being more attractive to the crazies in exchange for their votes.
Extremists are already winning primaries. Donald Trump is still the presumptive Republican nominee for president, and almost all of his challengers (with the exception of Chris Christie, not that I agree with his politics) are just as bad. This speaks not just to the politics of conserbative politicians, but to the politics of conservative voters.
It's over.
The choice for Republicans is now "embrace and support fascism" or "leave the Republican party."
The rise already happened. Trump is the leading candidate for the nomination and the MAGA House reps just unseated the more traditional Conservative speaker and nominated one of their own. And they attempted a violent coup, with support from elected MAGA representatives.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it's bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
I think 99% of the left is averse to violence and is especially averse to dehumanizing anyone at all. Don't be mad at them. Be mad at me. I am the one not in that 99%. Most folks on the left will argue with me endlessly to try to convince me to see conservatives as humans. You are picking your fight with the wrong people. Pick your fight with me instead.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it’s bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
Every accusation is a confession.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it’s bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
It's literally what the comment I replied to was doing. You're just telling me that Democrats are as bad as Republicans - but since it's your team that's okay.
Somehow, you've taken away the opposite of what I said. But, that is to be expected from a conservative. Conservatives are incapable of entering into a conversation in good faith. Honesty is simply not a conservative trait.
At no point have I framed all Republicans as Nazis. But to deny that Nazis have embraced the Republican party and the party has no problem with them in leadership roles is to deny reality.
At no point have I framed all Republicans as Nazis.
It's pretty heavily implied in your context. If it was not your intent then I withdraw part of my statement. You're still using a very politically-charged word to dehumanize some of your opponents.
Maybe @spaceghoti didn't, but I will. If you're still carrying water for the party that, by all appearences, will nominate Donald Trump as their presidential candidate again, you are a fucking fascist.
At least three people have made essentially this point and he's replied to none of them. He's only interested in arguments he thinks he can knock down.
You can assume all you want. That remains your problem, not mine. My statement stands.
A table with 9 republicans and 1 nazi allowed sitting at it is just a table with 10 nazis.
The GOP has a serious Nazi problem, and the roots go deep. Many Republicans are happy to call themselves Nazis, Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, etc. Acknowledging this doesn’t dehumanize anyone— it’s just a fact.
If 9 people sit down at a table with 1 Nazi without protest, there are 10 Nazis at the table.
That's not how I read it. The poll is saying that 41% of Biden supporters believe that Republicans will use violence. Not that they would use violence themselves.
The quoted text literally says that they feel it's okay to use violence to stop Republicans.
To stop them from overthrowing the constitution and democracy itself? Absolutely we will.
you bet your ass
Yeah if they run up on the Capitol again I hope more action is done this time. Itll stop their goals, that's what I would have put on that poll. You can't stop bullies by being nice/patient.
I too could go for some "action"
Yeah I think you're right. My first read of it bypassed the "stop them" and I thought it was just saying they were extreme enough to use violence.
It's all good. I just don't see it being read any other way. I don't really know if they are wrong tbh. Being tolerant of intolerance paradox and all that
Forty-one percent of Biden supporters say they believe people who support the Republican party and its ideologies have become “so extreme in what they want that it is acceptable to use violence to stop them from achieving their goals.” Likewise, 38 percent of Trump supporters say it is OK to use violence to stop Democrats from achieving their goals.
That seems right. Both sides have their heads buried in their echo chambers. It's easy to tune out or accept the extremism in the parties depending on your disposition.
We are most definitely not the same. Let's remember who stormed the capitol aiming at killing people. Go back to your cave
Let's remember who's burning down cities and looting.
I shrug...there's not a difference there. There's clearly a militant arm on both sides. I'm sure you'll justify one side or the other depending on your views of current events.
This poll seems very wrong. 41% of Biden supporters say it is acceptable to use violence to stop Trump supporters instead of democratic voting? And who put this out? The Hill?
Democrats can win in a democracy. It is the Republicans that want to rule us because democracy isn't working for them anymore.
Democrats: "It's okay to use violence to stop the overthrow of a democratically elected government."
Republicans: "It's okay to use violence to stop trangender bathrooms from teaching my kid critical race theory"
"It's okay to use violence to overthrow a democratically elected government" (this has been attempted once already, and its attempt is still being embraced by people who were themselves democratically elected), while also decrying anyone who would dare to physically stand in their way.
I think it's the notion that punching Nazis is not only acceptable, it's necessary. Democrats have not initiated widespread violence against democracy, not the way Republicans have embraced it. Democrats are preparing to defend themselves, and are waiting for Republicans to initiate another civil war.
Framing all Republicans as "Nazis" is a convenient way to dehumanize your opponents.
Not all Republicans are Nazis. But all Republicans are ok being part of the party that contains Nazis, and having beliefs that align with Nazis.
This says a lot about those people, no?
Associating with Nazis makes one a Nazi. It’s a binary.
Ahh, yes. The "nazi bar" argument.
There is no other party people like, say, Mitt Romney can turn to. He's not a Democrat and wouldn't be welcome by Democrat voters. Third party is typically non-viable for a politician in the US. So what do you do? This isn't a hypothetical. Quitting removes a moderate voice from the party that could be replaced with an extremist.
Ideally - yes I think there should be a third party for the whackos to separate them from the mainstream. The US should have at least 4 parties. But that's not an option right now. It's in both parties best interest that it remains that way.
As a start, they could denounce Nazis. Then they could figure out why their policies seem so attractive to Nazis, and change those policies. And they can seek to actively kick them out of their ranks.
And Romney is absolutely a Democrat nowadays. The only people who don't know that are his voters.
In case you weren't aware, there have been multiple party changes over the course of US history. The last one was when the Democratic and Republican parties kind of switched places through the mid-20th century. The political landscape is well-primed for the Republican party to split.
I am. But it would mean the short-term destruction of your own party since our "first past the post" election process would ensure that conservatives lose in large numbers. Unfortunately it could also mean the rise of MAGA over the traditional Republicans since Trump and others, who are very popular, would potentially sway lots of voters.
200 Republican representatives just voted to make a guy implicated in an attempt to overthrow an election their leader. The guy who encouraged and possibly orchestrated it is their leading presidential candidate. The party is MAGA, and in the process, nazifying. Its short-term destruction is better than supporting the rise of white supremacist fascism because you believe in lower taxes for business owners.
The fascists are here already. They support the Republican party. They have been voting fascists into office for years, using the Republican party to do so. They have demonstrated that they are willing to dismantle a functioning government that servers the people.
If a person still carries water for the Republican party, they are complicit. People of good conscience who have previously identified with the Republican party need to stop supporting it. Whether that means voting for Democrats or creating another party to align with doesn't matter. The choice for Republicans is now "embrace and support fascism" or "leave the Republican party."
Do you think any of that gets better if the traditionalists leave the Republican party?
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the term "traditionalists," but since I haven't landed on a better one, we'll use it.
Yes, I do. They would be taking their sociopolitical clout, and their votes, away from fascists. This deprives fascists of the power they currently enjoy as a result of latching onto the Republican party.
I dunno. The extremists would now win primaries and be closer to winning seats. Many people who vote "party" will just vote for the extremists instead.
Trump is the "party leader" - I feel like it would further legitimize the nuts. Not having a moderating influence in the party seems more bad to me...
Whatever moderating influence there might be, it has been shrinking for some time. It's all over but the shouting. The fascists are already growing stronger, and again, they're doing it with the cover of the Republican party - which, I might add, has built this monster over decades by being more attractive to the crazies in exchange for their votes.
Extremists are already winning primaries. Donald Trump is still the presumptive Republican nominee for president, and almost all of his challengers (with the exception of Chris Christie, not that I agree with his politics) are just as bad. This speaks not just to the politics of conserbative politicians, but to the politics of conservative voters.
It's over.
The rise already happened. Trump is the leading candidate for the nomination and the MAGA House reps just unseated the more traditional Conservative speaker and nominated one of their own. And they attempted a violent coup, with support from elected MAGA representatives.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it's bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
I think 99% of the left is averse to violence and is especially averse to dehumanizing anyone at all. Don't be mad at them. Be mad at me. I am the one not in that 99%. Most folks on the left will argue with me endlessly to try to convince me to see conservatives as humans. You are picking your fight with the wrong people. Pick your fight with me instead.
Every accusation is a confession.
It's literally what the comment I replied to was doing. You're just telling me that Democrats are as bad as Republicans - but since it's your team that's okay.
Somehow, you've taken away the opposite of what I said. But, that is to be expected from a conservative. Conservatives are incapable of entering into a conversation in good faith. Honesty is simply not a conservative trait.
At no point have I framed all Republicans as Nazis. But to deny that Nazis have embraced the Republican party and the party has no problem with them in leadership roles is to deny reality.
It's pretty heavily implied in your context. If it was not your intent then I withdraw part of my statement. You're still using a very politically-charged word to dehumanize some of your opponents.
Maybe @spaceghoti didn't, but I will. If you're still carrying water for the party that, by all appearences, will nominate Donald Trump as their presidential candidate again, you are a fucking fascist.
At least three people have made essentially this point and he's replied to none of them. He's only interested in arguments he thinks he can knock down.
You can assume all you want. That remains your problem, not mine. My statement stands.
A table with 9 republicans and 1 nazi allowed sitting at it is just a table with 10 nazis.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/4561037
The GOP has a serious Nazi problem, and the roots go deep. Many Republicans are happy to call themselves Nazis, Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, etc. Acknowledging this doesn’t dehumanize anyone— it’s just a fact.
If 9 people sit down at a table with 1 Nazi without protest, there are 10 Nazis at the table.
They should probably stop supporting nazis then.
That's not how I read it. The poll is saying that 41% of Biden supporters believe that Republicans will use violence. Not that they would use violence themselves.
The quoted text literally says that they feel it's okay to use violence to stop Republicans.
To stop them from overthrowing the constitution and democracy itself? Absolutely we will.
you bet your ass
Yeah if they run up on the Capitol again I hope more action is done this time. Itll stop their goals, that's what I would have put on that poll. You can't stop bullies by being nice/patient.
I too could go for some "action"
Yeah I think you're right. My first read of it bypassed the "stop them" and I thought it was just saying they were extreme enough to use violence.
It's all good. I just don't see it being read any other way. I don't really know if they are wrong tbh. Being tolerant of intolerance paradox and all that
That seems right. Both sides have their heads buried in their echo chambers. It's easy to tune out or accept the extremism in the parties depending on your disposition.
We are most definitely not the same. Let's remember who stormed the capitol aiming at killing people. Go back to your cave
Let's remember who's burning down cities and looting.
I shrug...there's not a difference there. There's clearly a militant arm on both sides. I'm sure you'll justify one side or the other depending on your views of current events.
Fixed that for you.