Is kbin.social anti-corporation? Should it be?
shepherd@kbin.social to /kbin meta@kbin.social – 72 points – I'm seeing discussions on other instances about how a "federated" corporate instance should be handled, i.e. Meta, or really any major company.
What would kbin.social's stance be towards federating/defederating with a Meta instance?
Or what should that stance be?
I've seen this article circulating and I think it's a really good cautionary tale. If meta arrives here in full force it's completely going to take over the fediverse, they are already splitting the community as it is.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Note that this is different subject from being anti-corporate. I don't think there's an issue if companies start booting their instances and creating communities for their games or content, whether its EA, Bioware, CDPR or something like pcgamer, LTT, gamersnexus, etc. They want the PR and visibility on a social network but their goal probably wouldn't be take over the AP, and could add some validity and get other bigger names to be active here. That is assuming we want growth at all.
I wonder if theres any way to pre emptively stop them from taking over activitypubs development and direction
They can't do a hostile take over of ActivityPub. The trap is that they would come in with open arms and an army of developers. ActivityPub maintainers would at first welcome the help and guidance from such an experienced team. Then, once they have the community hooked, they spring the trap and start making changes that are actively hostile to small sites. The community flocks to the big site because everything works better there, and the dream is dead.
Now maybe it'll never happen, but it's hard to tell. Even if Facebook joined with the best intentions, that doesn't mean the project isn't going to be taken over by a power hungry manager later who could still activate the trap card.
Right, because that's what Embrace Extend Extinguish is.
This is why the big threat is Meta, because they are a tech company. I think any instances spun up by Silicon Valley should be blocked preemptively, but other corpora can have a probationary period.
Honestly, it Meta spun up a Mastodon site to host Meta employees and just have a corporate presence, the way they might have a Twitter account, that wouldn't be an issue at all.
The issue is that they're arriving as platform developers, not social participants. And that's their business.
We should be super suspicious of people showing up to sell the Fediverse, because you can't profit off of community. Community costs money, not generates it. To generate money, you need to exploit people, and exploitation is anti-social. Anti-community.
I say they can, this is kind of what we have seen with Chrome tbh.
Google came in, made an awesome browser got market majority and started just implementing things to the point where its hard to keep up and the various specification bodies kind of just have to ratify things that is already in the browser or become obsolete, afaik this happened with components such as the in browser DRM which by design makes it hard to implement.
I think this can come true as long as we let them insert themselves into the ecosystem. The difference here is that we have the option to keep our part of the fediverse pristine by not federating with these servers, even if we doom ourselves to obscurity by doing it.
this is the closest someone has come to convincing me that this would be a big problem. i still happen to think that the smaller instances will be fine in the long run. big consolidated instances are inevitable because people like being where people are. look at twitter and facebook. i suspect the worst problem we'd have is people switching from "facebook" to "federated facebook".
now maybe meta will be able to fuck with the standards body that is responsible for the standard. that would be very bad. then i'd be on board. until they do that, i won't worry. i'm open to having my mind changed, but i've found most arguments to be unconvincing as they basically boil down to "but they're big!"
That's exactly the problem with mega-instances. From the link posted above:
I was originally in the let’s just sit back and see what happens camp, but this article completely changed my perspective. A very interesting read. I do, however, agree that companies creating their own instances to advertise their products can only be good for us in the longrun.
On a similar note, I was recently reading about Microsoft’s efforts to dominate the whole browser space in the 90s, and I think it’s a very good example of the worst kind of capitalism.
Damn, this article's interesting. I never knew about either Google or Microsoft's actions on that matter. I suppose it's not very surprising anyway. "Don't be evil", LMAO
@Kaldo Thank you for the link, that's exactly what prompted this thread!
I think it's just too hard to draw the line of "not rich enough to be a concern." Amazon instance is obviously bad. Pepsi? If they put their minds to it they could do something lol. Hasbro?? They're greedy enough for sure.
Or what if a company starts as a relatively minor player, but suddenly get big. Steam acquires the entire video game industry or something lmao. Then we still have the same problem, they're going to be motivated differently.
So I say we defederate all profit driven instances. They can still make magazines on our instances, if they can follow our rules. If they have trouble following our rules... Well, then I definitely don't want them in a position to affect the whole Fediverse lol.
It's really helpful to see a previous example of something like this happening. I was aware of many instances blocking the potential Meta instance but didn't really get the reason why. Now it makes sense.
I honestly think that social media services should exclusively be nonprofits and run off of a combination of very limited ads and/or donation drives à la Wikipedia. Profit motives destroy things like this, as we've seen time and time again.
I agree. I have been thinking the last few days how Kbin can sustainably keep the servers paid for long term. A non-profit, Wikipedia style arrangement is the only thing I keep coming back to that makes sense.
Wikipedia is a good example. It is annoying when they ask for the $3 every year, but it's true that a small contribution like that across the many users can keep a free/libre project sustained. Things like Usenet used to be part of your ISP bill anyhow, so a small monthly/annual amount to your instance host makes sense to me. Of course, we pay ridiculous amounts to our ISPs without services like this nowadays, so it does hurt a little
I made another comment about this previously and I really don't want to end up as the designated "don't donate to Wikipedia" user on the threadiverse, but here we are anyway. Before I continue, I will say I'm not personally involved and I'm not anti-Wikipedia/Wikimedia, but I do think the Wikimedia Foundation is misleading Wikipedia visitors about its funding, or at least that it has in previous donation drives.
It's worth mentioning that "Wikipedia" is itself never asking for money. The non-profit Wikimedia Foundation puts those donation drive banners on Wikipedia, and those banners misleadingly suggest that money will go mostly or entirely to Wikipedia (it won't) and that your donations are necessary for Wikipedia to continue running (they're not). The Wikimedia Foundation receives upwards of $150 million dollars a year, which is much more than the upkeep of Wikipedia, ⅔ of which is not from the individual small donors who respond to those banners.
Wikipedia's internal "newspaper", The Signpost, has a couple of pretty thorough articles on the controversy. The short version is that a) The Wikimedia Foundation receives millions in funding via corporate donations from tech giants like Google (more than enough to sustain Wikipedia on their own), while the income from banner ads represents about a third of their yearly finances, and b) they then spend the vast majority of that funding on things that aren't Wikipedia:
(Fingers crossed that Markdown works.)
Before I'm accused of cherrypicking data, I'm literally quoting the Wikimedia Foundation's Consolidated Financial Statements for 2021-2022.
Some of those are a bit nebulous, but even if you're charitable (and we are talking donations!) you can lump in "professional service expenses", "other operating expenses" and "Internet hosting" together as "funding Wikipedia", for a total of $31.7 million, which is about 22% of what they receive in donations. For that matter, it's less than half of what they receive in "large" donations, before we even start factoring in donations from sympathetic Wikipedia visitors. Meanwhile, the Foundation spends $103 million on paying its own staff and giving awards and grants to other people or organizations.
Now, you can certainly make the case that individual donations allow the Wikimedia Foundation to remain independent from corporate or other influence, because they in theory could stop taking those large donations and continue operating Wikipedia, albeit they'd have to slash their staff salaries, grants and other expenses to do so, since, say it with me, the vast bulk of their money is not going toward Wikipedia's upkeep.
I want to be clear that I don't think any of this stuff is evil, just that it's misleading to suggest your donations go any more than a fraction toward the continued operation of Wikipedia. Wikipedia will be fine either way, but the WMF certainly appreciates your donations.
Well said, thanks for this info! I was in the camp of thinking "of course the money goes to Wikipedia's upkeep" but I never examined it closely enough.
For now, I’m just paying for my instance out of my pocket because I wanna see this place grow. Maybe I will need donations to keep it going in the future once it reaches a certain size but I can’t imagine trying to ever profit off keeping this running. I think the real value in federated instances and content is going back to the ways of the early internet, the personal pet projects that motivate people. I’m also personally totally done with being advertised, scraped, and sold..I don’t want to ever do that to anyone else.
It seems unlikely to me that corporate instances would ever actually federate in good faith.
They may appear to be compliant initially, but in the long term they just have different goals.
I'm not sure where exactly the line gets drawn, but at the far extreme, I say we treat money-making instances as bad actors. If they stand to gain profit from their actions, they need to be defederated to prevent the sabotaging or enshittification of the fediverse.
Maybe true. What of a money-making instance that was a B Corp, or a non-profit (moneymaking but aligned to a purpose?) I think there might be space for something along those lines?
@Melpomene I'm concerned about the B-Corp getting big, but staying profit driven. Imagine if Steam had an instance. That seems... fine, I guess, for now. But then let's say Steam suddenly acquires the entire video game industry lol. That's definitely a problem. But what if they do it over.. 12 years? At what point are we supposed to realize we're frogs getting boiled?
And non-profits, yeah, you're probably right that they should be fine.
But okay, do you know MEC? They were initially Mountain Equipment Co-op, technically a non-profit. Now they're Mountain Equipment Company, a retail store, but most customers barely registered the difference. This type of thing concerns me lol.
I think B Corps and non-profits can be allowed to make magazines here, that's fine. They just need to follow our rules. They won't like it, but no risk of Fediverse collapse ever, and honestly it's probably best if we get to hold them accountable this way.
A fair point re priorities shifting, for sure. Though we'd run into the same problem if a super popular instance decided to sell its instance to, say, Google. There's nothing stopping that from happening, either. Bad actors are going to act bad; we just need to figure out how to mitigate their impact.
I have a fair bit of skepticism re nonprofits too. But beyond defederation, there's not much we can do to stop anyone (including Meta) from operating in this space.
I already deleted a mastodon account over the instance admin's "wait and see" position.
Strongly and preemptively shunning meta is the course of action I view as the correct one, most likely to preserve what the fediverse is and tries to be.
The safest and most effective way to prevent Meta from destroying ActivityPub is to never give them so much as an inch. They WILL embrace, extend, extinguish if given the chance. Defederate from ALL Meta-owned instances. Be vocal about it. Tell other instances to do the same.
I don’t think there should be blind hostility but it should be clear that any hint of embrace, extend, extinguish will result in hostile actions like defederation. I also don’t think targeted ad tech companies share the goals of the Fediverse. I wouldn’t be bothered if instances had sponsors (as in, “/Kbin is made possible by support from Cloudflare”) like all non-profit media. But any sort of targeted ads based on user activity/data should be ruled out as a way to fund the metaverse.
I think we have already seen hints of "embrace, extend, extinguish" with the confidential meeting they invited the Fosstodon dev to.
@codybrumfield Well, we already have Meta's off-the-record invitation. I'd consider that to be a hint of shenanigans!
kbin.social is in particular situation, as it is the only top 15 server by monthly users, which is not Mastodon. The only Fediverse instances bigger than kbin.social, are:
mastodon.social
pawoo.net (Japanese, Sujitech)
(a lolicon server)
(two fake and one sus Russian instances).
Every other Fediverse server has less monthly users.
It tempts to try federation with Meta, mainly to try Threads' handling of the real threading app.
Meta is going to embrace ActivityPub with Threads by Instagram. Are we (free Fediverse users, creators, programmers, etc.) able to extend, and extinguish Meta's app?
Different Fedi software support articles, threading, formatting, fancy formatting (Misskey-Flavoured Markdown), video, events. I doubt, that new Facebook's app would support all of these at once.
@Kierunkowy74
@shepherd A warning about Pawoo: it is FAR TOO EASY to accidentally see lolicon hentai art there right now, despite the admins trying to do something about CP (https://pawoo.net/web/statuses/110195807808920534). The legality and morality of lolicon hentai vs real human CP is another thing but at the moment that shit is out there in the open. Also, they don't allow you to search for text within posts, so you're limited to the global feed where you can encounter the aformentioned, or you have to specifically know who you want to follow and curate from there.
Kbin.social need not be anti-corporation, but setting standards that fellow federated instances must abide by / putting into place a "collective treaty of federation" or some such that sets the terms of federating with kbin.social (and other signatory instances) would be exceedingly wise. In theory, I have no problem seeing commercial entities as part of the fediverse. In practice, though, I'd want to see strong protections in place to prevent them from turning the fediverse into "Social Network Inc, but hosted on everyone else's dime.
It can go all kind of ways. But no matter whether they are blocked or not, they will build their own platform and add 'value' to it. And with 'value' I mean something most people like to use and what makes people feel like they need to be on that platform.
Maybe it will federate with the rest, maybe they're just looking at how they can couple facebook, instagram and whatsapp together through federation. And maybe all three will enter fediverse and you can federate with them. Of course while missing some 'key' features of those platforms. Or they just want to scrape the platform and build on that. Who knows what META will do and how they will do it. They want to be relevant and make money by selling data.
This is actually an entirely possible scenario - given the EU's digital markets act that kicks in next year, this would be a quick and easy way for Meta to be compliant - they can say they are using an open standard, which fully complies with the requirements of the EU act.
Federation may require some sort of contract. Like the idea of gpl.