Before you can even entertain the arguments in this article, don't you first need to address the barrier to entry of installing an operating system in the first place? This isn't even a hurdle specific to Linux, I don't really think the average user has the technical know-how to install any operating system onto a computer.
Yeah, it makes me think back to the CD days. I think just having a Windows install CD already premade for you made the process at least semi approachable.
Last month when I was installing an OS (it was proxmox, not exactly beginner friendly, I know) the first boot disk creator I used "worked" but ended up failing in the install. The second one worked though.
All in all, creating your own install disk is nice and flexible, but it really is a barrier for the average user.
Hilarious. In what world is a Linux a good choice for “Elderly people who are not familiar with advanced technology and prefer clean and simple computer usage”.
The elderly people I know already struggle with the systems they’ve used for years. And when something goes wrong, they can ask basically anyone and someone will be able to help them.
Now insert Linux (which “flavour”? Who knows, pick one) and see who can help with even basic tasks or problems. This is fantasy shit.
My mother used Linux Mint as her last OS just fine. She struggled more with her phone than Linux. Just using browser, mail client and writing the occasional letter you're pretty much OS-agnostic.
However, while that does work, sometimes updates break something (regardless of distribution). Windows mixes shit up which makes the elderly not finding something again but Linux updates may result in the DE not starting for some reason. I moved to Linux 100% myself but I still won't ever recommend it to anyone who isn't fine with tinkering or has access to family tech support.
Some Linux distros change less than Windows in appearance over the years.
Also easy to set configs back to default if things go astray, as everything is a file.
Have you tried introducing an "oldy" to it lately?
I showed my parents who used Windows but Apple for phones and they took to Ubuntu like duck to water!
My great-aunt asked for a PC when she was 85 and her grandchild moved abroad. I installed Linux mint with a few scripts and shortcuts to ease her life, and she picked that up (check email, Skype, nothing super sophisticated ofc). I guess if it's a new thing, windows does not the advantage of being already familiar, and Linux is more stable in my experience, which leads to less random errors.
Im not saying it’s impossible, but it’s not “the best”. Even in your example, you set everything up. But if something goes wrong, will you be there to fix it? With a Mac, which is lately idiot-proof, if something breaks there’s an easy number to call or places you can take your machine.
Again, not saying it’s unusable, but just being usable wasn’t the claim.
I find Mac to be extremely unintuitive in how things are organized tbh, but that's just me.
Anyway, you are right, but she wanted to spend just 3-400 euros for a laptop, which is incompatible with Apple prices.
Obviously this means being there to support if something goes wrong, but with a minimal install and Linux being stable, it doesn't happen often (I also have my mom's laptop running mint). I do have a reverse tunnel script configured that allows me to SSH in their machines using a "panic" icon on their desktop.
But you get that not everyone has you on speed dial to fix things, right? That’s my point.
Also, you can get a used MacBook Air in great condition for that price. Or a slightly older Pro. You just can’t get the absolute latest and greatest, but for that price you were never going to anyway, so it’s sort of moot.
Of course, but I assume elderly people getting familiar with a completely new technology need anyway some kind of personal support and introduction from someone close.
I don't think anybody would plan to throw a Mac at some elderly person and say "if any issue call Apple support", right?
I get your point though, and I am just saying that there are situations where Linux might work totally fine.
Also, the used market for apple product is not that big where I lived. Nobody in the family had a Mac also, which means she wouldn't have had anybody to ask for support at all. It's a specific situation, but my point is that having an official support is not going to help that much in some cases.
To be clear, I didn’t say Linux is never suitable for elderly people. I said it’s not the best, which is the claim the original article made.
The whole point in "Linux for elderly" is that they can't go clickety-click on everything they find and screw things up. You hide everything relating to system config from the graphical UI.
Worked fine for my father for years. I got tired of him skrewing up his Windows. Malware and desktop highjacking was also less of a problem, because Linux is a niche operating system.
Same worked for my cousins son, who mostly played on PS3 back then, minecraft being the only PC game.
...but for the elderly flying solo with no help from anyone, Linux in a no-go.
Even in your example, you set everything up.
No shit. Have you installed Windows 10/11 recently? Do you seriously believe a 85 year-old will get this done on their own?
I share your overall opinion though: Linux is not "the best for most people". That would be phones nowadays. Many people don't even have computers anymore (I don't get how they organize their finances or write documents but I guess I'm just old).
It's more likely that someone will buy a laptop or PC with Windows installed. Installing Windows on their own is hardly the experience most users go through.
I have, but that’s not the point. There are places you can take a computer and say “hey, I’d like one Windows installation, please.” There are exceedingly few places that would help an old person set up a Linux installation, at which point theyre at the mercy of whatever nerd in their life will do it, and then just hoping they don’t move or die.
Im specifically not expecting them to do it themselves, which is why I think Linux is not a good option.
Most anything can and is run in the browser these days. Linux is fine for that. Most settings are fairly intuitive and fully featured.
Anything beyond that and things start to fall apart quickly.
Yeah I agree, when old people have trouble using an iPhone which is one of the simplest OSs to use, there's no way that they can use Linux, yes it's good but it's not as simple to use as an iPhone. And they can get help with their iPhone from anyone, or at the Apple store, there's no Linux store they can get help from.
I have installed Ubuntu and Linux Mint for retirees who need a machine that they can browse the internet and check emails. Some of them have been using those distros for years with minimal issues.
Massive disagree. Most Linux distros are far far easier for people who just want the basic use case of loading a browser or playing a song.
I think you have this idea in your mind of Linux being this complex system where you need to open the terminal and be a hacker man. That's not what desktop Linux is like unless you're going for some niche neckbeardy setup.
If an old person had a PC with, say, Linux Mint, ChromeOS, or even Ubuntu on it, they'd almost certainly struggle far less than they would with Windows.
Windows is not easier. You just think it's easier because you're more used to it.
That’s absolutely not the idea I have in my head. If you read most of my replies here, I think I explain pretty clearly that the main issue I see with Linux is not actually the software itself, it’s that there’s not a good, normie-friendly support system for when things do go wrong or things aren’t immediately obvious.
I also tend to advocate for MacOS more than Windows. Although I’ve used both my whole life, I find macOS a lot more intuitive than windows, and I would generally never recommend windows unless there’s a specific need for it.
Well yeah, there's not really much of a unified support system (some distros do have support, be it free or paid, though). But there isn't for windows these days either.
I can't speak to whether you can contact Apple and ask for help.
You can absolutely contact Microsoft (or Apple) for support, plus basically any computer store will happily charge a small fee for basic tech support, or you can call the computer manufacturer or reseller. On the Linux side, unless you bought from something like System76, the chances of you finding an official support network that an elderly person would find usable and accessible are pretty slim.
What age do you mean when you say "elderly"? For me they are 80/90 and do not have a computer or mobile.
What do you mean ask anyone, most of their friends are dead and their children are adults who live far away and are as computer literature as our parents.
Mid 60s and up, around retiring age (or at least that’s retiring age where I am).
Linux is clearly great and can even be used by non techie elder people, but only if you can stick around in case they encounter any difficulty. Why? Because they can ask anyone to get some help on windows, but most people would be scared to even approach something they don’t know, so they wouldn’t help these old people on Linux.
Is it a shame? Yes, but that’s the reality.
I guess that if you put an elder on a prepared Linux computer with nothing more to setup, the elder would be perfectly fine using it. But if they want to add a program or anything, that’s when they gonna need your help and presence.
With something like a software center? I doubt it, unless they can't use an app store on their phone either.
Elderly people aren't (usually) stupid.
Boy, you'd be surprised...
Well then if they really can't use that they'll have just as much trouble as on Windows, so I don't get the point.
But they are having as much trouble on Windows. Just that there are more people who'd likely able to help.
Since getting a steam deck, I legitimately wish I knew way more about Linux than I do now. The thing is basically a grown up toy in many ways more than just video games.
If anyone has recommendations to resources I could use to better familiarize myself with accomplishing basic tasks with (arch) Linux, I’d appreciate it.
Linux academy used to have a free course for beginners.
I've been working through linuxjourney.com and have learned quite a bit
I used it for gaming until I found that face tracking on Linux (mostly on the output side) is a pain in the butt. It's great for most things these days and I still keep it on my laptop but it's now the niche things it doesn't do well.
No need to worry about viruses
I've encountered viruses on Linux servers. It's definitely something to worry about.
Even if viruses do infect a Linux system, they would have little to no damage. By default, Linux systems run with restricted user permissions and access, which can still be even more hardened using SELinux and AppArmor to the point that each application can be isolated from one another. Making the infection spread impossible.
True - those do help. By the way this is something MacOS does better at. For example the / filesystem is mounted read only. You literally can't write to it at all (software updates get around this by creating a new snapshot of the disk, writing to that, and then rebooting telling the firmware to use the newly created snapshot... which it will only do after firmware level integrity checks against malware). Software, by default, has almost no access to the write to even parts of the disk that the user has access to. It also can't access the internet or printers or bluetooth or cameras or any of that. Access to these things works much like a firewall - there's a white list of things the software can get to. And even then, there are some things that still can't be reached (for example your camera can only be accessed if the user grants permission).
Safer files
Eh. I don't think Linux is any better than other operating systems at that.
Compared to other operating systems, Linux is not resource-hungry. Meaning it used less RAM and CPU usage
I disagree. MacOS is more efficient... a Mac with 8GB of RAM and a slow CPU is generally going to be better at every day tasks. Ever heard that Macs have incredible battery life? That's because they're efficient. I'm pretty sure the CPU in my laptop is technically capable of draining the battery in about 45 minutes, but in real world use I get about 18 hours of battery life out of it - because the software works really really hard to keep CPU idle. On slower hardware that translates to excellent performance.
Sure - install the right software on a Linux system, it won't need much in the way of resources... but on MacOS you can run modern state of the art software efficiently - a lot of that comes down to low level features like GCD and ARC. Both of which can be used on Linux (they're open source) but in practice you won't find any software that actually uses them. On MacOS pretty much everything uses them.
Free to use;
Flexibility
100% agree. That's where Linux really shines (I think you should have lead with those) and these are the two reasons I run either Linux and MacOS for 99% of my computing life. I even have Linux VMs running on my Macs most of the time. Use the best tool for the job (I even have a couple Windows PCs, though those are rarely used).
At this level, aren't MacOS and Linux close siblings compared to Windows? They do share ancestry. Are we comparing mandarins and clementines, when pears exist.
I agree with your statements however Immutable Linux and flatpaks with SELinux are a thing nowadays.
a lot of that comes down to low level features like GCD and ARC.
Ah, almost but this shows you're just bullshitting (knowingly or not). Those are programming features and neither serves resource efficiency but security and preventing other errors. Important things, but managing memory manually in C will be faster and less resource-intensive than any smart-pointer variant. Doing so flawlessly is hard though.
Before you can even entertain the arguments in this article, don't you first need to address the barrier to entry of installing an operating system in the first place? This isn't even a hurdle specific to Linux, I don't really think the average user has the technical know-how to install any operating system onto a computer.
Yeah, it makes me think back to the CD days. I think just having a Windows install CD already premade for you made the process at least semi approachable.
Last month when I was installing an OS (it was proxmox, not exactly beginner friendly, I know) the first boot disk creator I used "worked" but ended up failing in the install. The second one worked though.
All in all, creating your own install disk is nice and flexible, but it really is a barrier for the average user.
Hilarious. In what world is a Linux a good choice for “Elderly people who are not familiar with advanced technology and prefer clean and simple computer usage”.
The elderly people I know already struggle with the systems they’ve used for years. And when something goes wrong, they can ask basically anyone and someone will be able to help them.
Now insert Linux (which “flavour”? Who knows, pick one) and see who can help with even basic tasks or problems. This is fantasy shit.
My mother used Linux Mint as her last OS just fine. She struggled more with her phone than Linux. Just using browser, mail client and writing the occasional letter you're pretty much OS-agnostic.
However, while that does work, sometimes updates break something (regardless of distribution). Windows mixes shit up which makes the elderly not finding something again but Linux updates may result in the DE not starting for some reason. I moved to Linux 100% myself but I still won't ever recommend it to anyone who isn't fine with tinkering or has access to family tech support.
Some Linux distros change less than Windows in appearance over the years.
Also easy to set configs back to default if things go astray, as everything is a file.
Have you tried introducing an "oldy" to it lately?
I showed my parents who used Windows but Apple for phones and they took to Ubuntu like duck to water!
My great-aunt asked for a PC when she was 85 and her grandchild moved abroad. I installed Linux mint with a few scripts and shortcuts to ease her life, and she picked that up (check email, Skype, nothing super sophisticated ofc). I guess if it's a new thing, windows does not the advantage of being already familiar, and Linux is more stable in my experience, which leads to less random errors.
Im not saying it’s impossible, but it’s not “the best”. Even in your example, you set everything up. But if something goes wrong, will you be there to fix it? With a Mac, which is lately idiot-proof, if something breaks there’s an easy number to call or places you can take your machine.
Again, not saying it’s unusable, but just being usable wasn’t the claim.
I find Mac to be extremely unintuitive in how things are organized tbh, but that's just me.
Anyway, you are right, but she wanted to spend just 3-400 euros for a laptop, which is incompatible with Apple prices. Obviously this means being there to support if something goes wrong, but with a minimal install and Linux being stable, it doesn't happen often (I also have my mom's laptop running mint). I do have a reverse tunnel script configured that allows me to SSH in their machines using a "panic" icon on their desktop.
But you get that not everyone has you on speed dial to fix things, right? That’s my point.
Also, you can get a used MacBook Air in great condition for that price. Or a slightly older Pro. You just can’t get the absolute latest and greatest, but for that price you were never going to anyway, so it’s sort of moot.
Of course, but I assume elderly people getting familiar with a completely new technology need anyway some kind of personal support and introduction from someone close. I don't think anybody would plan to throw a Mac at some elderly person and say "if any issue call Apple support", right?
I get your point though, and I am just saying that there are situations where Linux might work totally fine.
Also, the used market for apple product is not that big where I lived. Nobody in the family had a Mac also, which means she wouldn't have had anybody to ask for support at all. It's a specific situation, but my point is that having an official support is not going to help that much in some cases.
To be clear, I didn’t say Linux is never suitable for elderly people. I said it’s not the best, which is the claim the original article made.
The whole point in "Linux for elderly" is that they can't go clickety-click on everything they find and screw things up. You hide everything relating to system config from the graphical UI.
Worked fine for my father for years. I got tired of him skrewing up his Windows. Malware and desktop highjacking was also less of a problem, because Linux is a niche operating system.
Same worked for my cousins son, who mostly played on PS3 back then, minecraft being the only PC game.
...but for the elderly flying solo with no help from anyone, Linux in a no-go.
No shit. Have you installed Windows 10/11 recently? Do you seriously believe a 85 year-old will get this done on their own?
I share your overall opinion though: Linux is not "the best for most people". That would be phones nowadays. Many people don't even have computers anymore (I don't get how they organize their finances or write documents but I guess I'm just old).
It's more likely that someone will buy a laptop or PC with Windows installed. Installing Windows on their own is hardly the experience most users go through.
I have, but that’s not the point. There are places you can take a computer and say “hey, I’d like one Windows installation, please.” There are exceedingly few places that would help an old person set up a Linux installation, at which point theyre at the mercy of whatever nerd in their life will do it, and then just hoping they don’t move or die.
Im specifically not expecting them to do it themselves, which is why I think Linux is not a good option.
Most anything can and is run in the browser these days. Linux is fine for that. Most settings are fairly intuitive and fully featured.
Anything beyond that and things start to fall apart quickly.
Yeah I agree, when old people have trouble using an iPhone which is one of the simplest OSs to use, there's no way that they can use Linux, yes it's good but it's not as simple to use as an iPhone. And they can get help with their iPhone from anyone, or at the Apple store, there's no Linux store they can get help from.
I have installed Ubuntu and Linux Mint for retirees who need a machine that they can browse the internet and check emails. Some of them have been using those distros for years with minimal issues.
Massive disagree. Most Linux distros are far far easier for people who just want the basic use case of loading a browser or playing a song.
I think you have this idea in your mind of Linux being this complex system where you need to open the terminal and be a hacker man. That's not what desktop Linux is like unless you're going for some niche neckbeardy setup.
If an old person had a PC with, say, Linux Mint, ChromeOS, or even Ubuntu on it, they'd almost certainly struggle far less than they would with Windows.
Windows is not easier. You just think it's easier because you're more used to it.
That’s absolutely not the idea I have in my head. If you read most of my replies here, I think I explain pretty clearly that the main issue I see with Linux is not actually the software itself, it’s that there’s not a good, normie-friendly support system for when things do go wrong or things aren’t immediately obvious.
I also tend to advocate for MacOS more than Windows. Although I’ve used both my whole life, I find macOS a lot more intuitive than windows, and I would generally never recommend windows unless there’s a specific need for it.
Well yeah, there's not really much of a unified support system (some distros do have support, be it free or paid, though). But there isn't for windows these days either.
I can't speak to whether you can contact Apple and ask for help.
You can absolutely contact Microsoft (or Apple) for support, plus basically any computer store will happily charge a small fee for basic tech support, or you can call the computer manufacturer or reseller. On the Linux side, unless you bought from something like System76, the chances of you finding an official support network that an elderly person would find usable and accessible are pretty slim.
What age do you mean when you say "elderly"? For me they are 80/90 and do not have a computer or mobile.
What do you mean ask anyone, most of their friends are dead and their children are adults who live far away and are as computer literature as our parents.
Mid 60s and up, around retiring age (or at least that’s retiring age where I am).
Linux is clearly great and can even be used by non techie elder people, but only if you can stick around in case they encounter any difficulty. Why? Because they can ask anyone to get some help on windows, but most people would be scared to even approach something they don’t know, so they wouldn’t help these old people on Linux.
Is it a shame? Yes, but that’s the reality.
I guess that if you put an elder on a prepared Linux computer with nothing more to setup, the elder would be perfectly fine using it. But if they want to add a program or anything, that’s when they gonna need your help and presence.
With something like a software center? I doubt it, unless they can't use an app store on their phone either.
Elderly people aren't (usually) stupid.
Boy, you'd be surprised...
Well then if they really can't use that they'll have just as much trouble as on Windows, so I don't get the point.
But they are having as much trouble on Windows. Just that there are more people who'd likely able to help.
Since getting a steam deck, I legitimately wish I knew way more about Linux than I do now. The thing is basically a grown up toy in many ways more than just video games.
If anyone has recommendations to resources I could use to better familiarize myself with accomplishing basic tasks with (arch) Linux, I’d appreciate it.
Linux academy used to have a free course for beginners.
I've been working through linuxjourney.com and have learned quite a bit
I used it for gaming until I found that face tracking on Linux (mostly on the output side) is a pain in the butt. It's great for most things these days and I still keep it on my laptop but it's now the niche things it doesn't do well.
I've encountered viruses on Linux servers. It's definitely something to worry about.
True - those do help. By the way this is something MacOS does better at. For example the / filesystem is mounted read only. You literally can't write to it at all (software updates get around this by creating a new snapshot of the disk, writing to that, and then rebooting telling the firmware to use the newly created snapshot... which it will only do after firmware level integrity checks against malware). Software, by default, has almost no access to the write to even parts of the disk that the user has access to. It also can't access the internet or printers or bluetooth or cameras or any of that. Access to these things works much like a firewall - there's a white list of things the software can get to. And even then, there are some things that still can't be reached (for example your camera can only be accessed if the user grants permission).
Eh. I don't think Linux is any better than other operating systems at that.
I disagree. MacOS is more efficient... a Mac with 8GB of RAM and a slow CPU is generally going to be better at every day tasks. Ever heard that Macs have incredible battery life? That's because they're efficient. I'm pretty sure the CPU in my laptop is technically capable of draining the battery in about 45 minutes, but in real world use I get about 18 hours of battery life out of it - because the software works really really hard to keep CPU idle. On slower hardware that translates to excellent performance.
Sure - install the right software on a Linux system, it won't need much in the way of resources... but on MacOS you can run modern state of the art software efficiently - a lot of that comes down to low level features like GCD and ARC. Both of which can be used on Linux (they're open source) but in practice you won't find any software that actually uses them. On MacOS pretty much everything uses them.
100% agree. That's where Linux really shines (I think you should have lead with those) and these are the two reasons I run either Linux and MacOS for 99% of my computing life. I even have Linux VMs running on my Macs most of the time. Use the best tool for the job (I even have a couple Windows PCs, though those are rarely used).
At this level, aren't MacOS and Linux close siblings compared to Windows? They do share ancestry. Are we comparing mandarins and clementines, when pears exist.
I agree with your statements however Immutable Linux and flatpaks with SELinux are a thing nowadays.
Ah, almost but this shows you're just bullshitting (knowingly or not). Those are programming features and neither serves resource efficiency but security and preventing other errors. Important things, but managing memory manually in C will be faster and less resource-intensive than any smart-pointer variant. Doing so flawlessly is hard though.
Actually GCD is a library (libdispatch) rather than just a language feature and can be used on other platforms: https://github.com/apple/swift-corelibs-libdispatch
It could be because I'm a Gentoo user with DWM, but Mac has larger footprint than my Linux.