Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in retaliation for US's oil embargo. The Oil Embargo was due to Japan invading mainland Asia. Japan invaded mainland Asia due to... fascism. Imported from Germany.
But let's clear something up. Pearl Harbor was an attack on military assets, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes meant to crush opposition.
US dropped the a-bomb on Japan to crush any remaining resistance from Japan, and as a threat to the wider world (namely the USSR). There was no prior warning given so no civilians were able to evacuate. Between 110,000‐210,000 civilians were murdered by the dropping of those two bombs.
I disagree that there was no prior warning given to the civilians.
That leaflet specifically mentions the destruction of Hiroshima. It was a wide spread fear campaign AFTER they dropped the first bomb. There was no forewarning.
Looks like you might be referencing the second leaflet mentioned in that article.
In August 1945, leaflets were dropped on several Japanese cities (including, supposedly, Hiroshima and Nagasaki). The first round, known as the “LeMay leaflets,” were distributed before the bombing of Hiroshima. These leaflets did not directly reference the atomic bomb, and it is unclear whether they were used to warn citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki specifically.
Seems like there is some ambiguity though, since it says they were supposedly dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki but then says it was unclear.
Not a lot of evidence left behind.
Japan didn't import fascism, they were always a very authoritarian society based around a singular leader using cult of personality. Shoguns ran things locally while there was an emperor for nominal governance. The military ruled for so long that Japanese culture has been shaped by it for hundreds of years. A caste system works similar to fascism, with the samurai being the favored "in" group with all others subservient to them under the auspices of "protection".
My teacher had a saying I'm struggling to remember: "When steel and oil don't pass national lines, troops do."
Sounds like a quote attributed to Frederic Bastiat: "When goods don’t cross borders, Soldiers will."
It is proportional. Atom bombs were crime against humanity. So are netflix adaptations of anime.
I may be remembering this video essay from Shaun a little inaccurately, but I recall that Japan was preparing a surrender anyway, and was in talks with the USA, but the argument was whether the surrender would be unconditional or conditional (Japan wanted to keep the emperor in power). The US was worried about an impending Soviet invasion of Japan because they didn't want the Soviet Union to have influence in post-war negotiaions (i.e. landgrabs). The US didn't want to send in troops for a land invasion, so they decided to hasten Japan's surrender with the atomic bombings of major cities (terrorism tactics, in my opinion, just like the much deadlier firebombings).
Americans (including me) are commonly taught that the bombs were the only choice in order to prevent lost lives of American troops, but the impression I remember getting from the video is that (my opinion) there was never a risk of an American ground troop invasion, and not a risk of another Japanese attack. Japan would have either surrendered or been invaded by the Soviets.
The kicker is that Japan surrendered unconditionally to the US, but in the end, the US decided that the emperor should stay in power anyway, so those civilian deaths to the atomic bombs were always unnecessary.
The unconditional surrender being whiffed on things like "execution of those most responsible" and "making sure their legal system believes in innocent until proven guilty" by MacArthur is irrelevant, a conditional surrender would almost certainly have denied any reconstruction period at all.
As for whether the bombs were necessary...
Practically the entire Japanese navy had been destroyed. Their mainland holdings were falling. Their army had already lost its heavy equipment and 2 million soldiers in China to kill 22 million people. Their wunderwaffe programs were years from completion.
They'd already executed and exiled anyone that didn't bend the knee to the militarism cult.
They didn't surrender. They didn't even surrender after the first bomb. They waited until the second, and even then a fairly large portion of the IJA tried to launch a coup to stop it, the Kyuju incident. The Minister of War tried to convince others to refuse surrender, and only failed because the others were loyal to their God-Emperor's wishes. Which implies, btw, that if the Emperor has wished to keep fighting, they would have, and the Truman administration had received no indication that the Emperor was willing to accept an unconditional surrender. They had, in fact, seemingly rejected the conditional surrender offered by the Potsdam Declaration.
You think you understand how fanatical the IJA was, you do not. You can not, and still be a sane, rational person.
And, quite frankly?
Don't want to get nuked, don't genocide half of Asia and then refuse to admit wrongdoing.
The meme should be Bart to Homer and Homer to Lisa.
But the bombings did prevent a lot of OTHER war crimes that were definitely on the table so they're justified /s
It did save the lives of the soldiers who were going to invade Japan. Its fine to call sacrificing several hundred thousand lives unjustified but that was the rational at the time.
Not only those soldiers though. Japanese soldiers as well, and don't forget they convinced local communities to commit suicide 'to save themselves from the brutality of US soldiers'
Yeah Japan was a bit goofy during those times.
Not a whole lot fewer people died in regular bombing raids of Tokyo yet everyone keeps on shitting on the atomic bombs that ended the war. We're the results better in Germany when allied soldiers basically went door to door all the way to Berlin killing armed and very much dangerous elderly, women and children? You really think Imperial Japanese were less fanatical than that? Well think again.
Well that's a interesting take. I won't disagree that the US could've given them a warning. It may not of mattered as the Japanese at the time weren't known for backing down.
I think US interests were focused on saving US lives at the cost of Japanese lives. I'm pretty sure the Japanese knew the US had nukes but they didn't believe they would actually be used.
Hiroshima was the first non-top-secret detonation of a nuke. Literally no other country knew we had those weapons until we erased a city with it. They were theorized and a known possibility, but that's a far cry from actionable intelligence or even a plausible suspicion.
Don’t touch the USA’s fucking boats. Japan knew that and choose to FAFO. Almost every war we have waged in the last two hundred years has been because someone touched our fucking boats.
Don’t start shit you can’t finish.
It’s called war for a reason. You kill enough of the enemy they give up. The more you can kill without loosing your own people the better.
My grandfather was sitting in the Philippines waiting for orders to invade Japan. I’m personally very happy that he did not have to. I fully support the decision to use the A-bomb.
Not trying to justify war crimes, but the One Piece live action show was really good.
I was about to say that It's the only one, but then I remembered Alice in Borderlands was great too. The anime was just a 3 episode OVA that I heard wasn't great so dunno if it counts.
Still, it's extremely rare that a live action adaptation is even watchable let alone good.
I also enjoyed the Rourouni Kenshin movies, but the animated OVAs were objectively better.
I just saw a preview for a Yu Yu Hakusho live action adaptation, and it's been so long since I watched the anime that I probably won't mind if it isn't super faithful.
I couldn't get through Death Note, and while I watched all of Cowboy Bebop, I was very upset about it.
We need a Japanese reproduction of the combined movie Barbenheimer.
Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in retaliation for US's oil embargo. The Oil Embargo was due to Japan invading mainland Asia. Japan invaded mainland Asia due to... fascism. Imported from Germany.
But let's clear something up. Pearl Harbor was an attack on military assets, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes meant to crush opposition.
US dropped the a-bomb on Japan to crush any remaining resistance from Japan, and as a threat to the wider world (namely the USSR). There was no prior warning given so no civilians were able to evacuate. Between 110,000‐210,000 civilians were murdered by the dropping of those two bombs.
I disagree that there was no prior warning given to the civilians.
https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/key-documents/warning-leaflets/
That leaflet specifically mentions the destruction of Hiroshima. It was a wide spread fear campaign AFTER they dropped the first bomb. There was no forewarning.
Looks like you might be referencing the second leaflet mentioned in that article.
Seems like there is some ambiguity though, since it says they were supposedly dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki but then says it was unclear.
Not a lot of evidence left behind.
Japan didn't import fascism, they were always a very authoritarian society based around a singular leader using cult of personality. Shoguns ran things locally while there was an emperor for nominal governance. The military ruled for so long that Japanese culture has been shaped by it for hundreds of years. A caste system works similar to fascism, with the samurai being the favored "in" group with all others subservient to them under the auspices of "protection".
My teacher had a saying I'm struggling to remember: "When steel and oil don't pass national lines, troops do."
Source
Thank you!
Sounds like a quote attributed to Frederic Bastiat: "When goods don’t cross borders, Soldiers will."
It is proportional. Atom bombs were crime against humanity. So are netflix adaptations of anime.
I may be remembering this video essay from Shaun a little inaccurately, but I recall that Japan was preparing a surrender anyway, and was in talks with the USA, but the argument was whether the surrender would be unconditional or conditional (Japan wanted to keep the emperor in power). The US was worried about an impending Soviet invasion of Japan because they didn't want the Soviet Union to have influence in post-war negotiaions (i.e. landgrabs). The US didn't want to send in troops for a land invasion, so they decided to hasten Japan's surrender with the atomic bombings of major cities (terrorism tactics, in my opinion, just like the much deadlier firebombings).
Americans (including me) are commonly taught that the bombs were the only choice in order to prevent lost lives of American troops, but the impression I remember getting from the video is that (my opinion) there was never a risk of an American ground troop invasion, and not a risk of another Japanese attack. Japan would have either surrendered or been invaded by the Soviets.
The kicker is that Japan surrendered unconditionally to the US, but in the end, the US decided that the emperor should stay in power anyway, so those civilian deaths to the atomic bombs were always unnecessary.
The unconditional surrender being whiffed on things like "execution of those most responsible" and "making sure their legal system believes in innocent until proven guilty" by MacArthur is irrelevant, a conditional surrender would almost certainly have denied any reconstruction period at all.
As for whether the bombs were necessary...
Practically the entire Japanese navy had been destroyed. Their mainland holdings were falling. Their army had already lost its heavy equipment and 2 million soldiers in China to kill 22 million people. Their wunderwaffe programs were years from completion.
They'd already executed and exiled anyone that didn't bend the knee to the militarism cult.
They didn't surrender. They didn't even surrender after the first bomb. They waited until the second, and even then a fairly large portion of the IJA tried to launch a coup to stop it, the Kyuju incident. The Minister of War tried to convince others to refuse surrender, and only failed because the others were loyal to their God-Emperor's wishes. Which implies, btw, that if the Emperor has wished to keep fighting, they would have, and the Truman administration had received no indication that the Emperor was willing to accept an unconditional surrender. They had, in fact, seemingly rejected the conditional surrender offered by the Potsdam Declaration.
You think you understand how fanatical the IJA was, you do not. You can not, and still be a sane, rational person.
And, quite frankly?
Don't want to get nuked, don't genocide half of Asia and then refuse to admit wrongdoing.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this video essay from Shaun
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
The meme should be Bart to Homer and Homer to Lisa.
But the bombings did prevent a lot of OTHER war crimes that were definitely on the table so they're justified /s
It did save the lives of the soldiers who were going to invade Japan. Its fine to call sacrificing several hundred thousand lives unjustified but that was the rational at the time.
Not only those soldiers though. Japanese soldiers as well, and don't forget they convinced local communities to commit suicide 'to save themselves from the brutality of US soldiers'
Yeah Japan was a bit goofy during those times.
Not a whole lot fewer people died in regular bombing raids of Tokyo yet everyone keeps on shitting on the atomic bombs that ended the war. We're the results better in Germany when allied soldiers basically went door to door all the way to Berlin killing armed and very much dangerous elderly, women and children? You really think Imperial Japanese were less fanatical than that? Well think again.
Well that's a interesting take. I won't disagree that the US could've given them a warning. It may not of mattered as the Japanese at the time weren't known for backing down.
I think US interests were focused on saving US lives at the cost of Japanese lives. I'm pretty sure the Japanese knew the US had nukes but they didn't believe they would actually be used.
Hiroshima was the first non-top-secret detonation of a nuke. Literally no other country knew we had those weapons until we erased a city with it. They were theorized and a known possibility, but that's a far cry from actionable intelligence or even a plausible suspicion.
Not trying to justify war crimes, but the One Piece live action show was really good.
I was about to say that It's the only one, but then I remembered Alice in Borderlands was great too. The anime was just a 3 episode OVA that I heard wasn't great so dunno if it counts.
Still, it's extremely rare that a live action adaptation is even watchable let alone good.
I also enjoyed the Rourouni Kenshin movies, but the animated OVAs were objectively better.
I just saw a preview for a Yu Yu Hakusho live action adaptation, and it's been so long since I watched the anime that I probably won't mind if it isn't super faithful.
I couldn't get through Death Note, and while I watched all of Cowboy Bebop, I was very upset about it.
We need a Japanese reproduction of the combined movie Barbenheimer.