Does apple comply? Just asking as I do not have an iphone and was under the impression its not possible.
It is rumored that Apple will allow sideloading in the EU in the next big iOS update.
The las was recently paseo, shock be followed by march 2024
side loading has always been available on apple Iphones, it's just been locked exclusively down to their developer program for debugging and testing purposes and said installed apps are only valid for a limited amount of time. I expect it will use the same framework that the dev program uses, just not as restricted. That being said i can forsee them region locking it.
Ahh, so the only thing saving us from a corporate dominated future is laws...
Well I'm an American, I'm sure if they wanted, they could always make a EU version and US version. I a bit worried for the future.
Android is open source, and there are many forks of it already. If they were to try this, those of us who care would just run a fork of Android.
Assuming that there will be phones with unlockable bootloaders sold in the US in the future. There are precious few of them now. Importing's always an option (and quite easy these days), but then you run into the problem of band support.
But the vast majority won't, and that's an issue.
Burning a new ROM is just as hard fora regular user as jailbreaking an iPhone, so practically it doesn’t make a difference if android is open-source or not.
Also, even though core android is OSS, what you and i run on our phones heavily depends on the play framework which is Google proprietary. Amazon has tried and failed to fork android before with its fire devices and that hasn’t worked.
FYI GrapheneOS is trivial to install (you don't need to do all that exploit and root nonsense you used to have to!) and runs entirely without Google Play Services (unless you want to install them in a less-invasive way, which is also officially supported)
Thanks, bug. It’s gotten better for those of us with some background, but I’d definitely not say it’s trivial for a regular android user to use. GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixels launched after August 2020 for starters. The recommended easy way to install GrapheneOS still needs you to OEM unlock and may need a factory reset as well. Jailbreaking might technically be harder, but this is hard enough.
The only way something like this can become mainstream is if popular smartphone manufacturers intentionally supported an alternative distribution (like GrapheneOS), which i don’t see happening for business reasons including the possibility of a fallout with Google.
Even though android is open-source, the hurdles for running an alternative are around the proprietary stuff we depend on in the ecosystem.
I'd say having a Pixel is the only real blocker, as unlocking the bootloader and factory resetting the phone are both a couple of clicks in the settings that anyone can follow. I remember the days of rooting and installing cyanogenmod on early Android phones and compared to that the process today is really trivial!
You’re glossing over a lot of complexity that the GrapheneOS team is doing for you. The reason that they only support Pixels is because Google is relatively open. Their FAQ says the following:
In most cases, substantial work beyond that will be needed to bring the support up to the same standards. For most devices, the hardware and firmware will prevent providing a reasonably secure device, regardless of the work put into device support.
…
Broader device support can only happen after the community (companies, organizations and individuals) steps up to make substantial, ongoing contributions to making the existing device support sustainable.
You can’t expect Android users to be able to en masse move to a fork if Google decides to close the tap.
I have LineageOS (CyanogenMod) running on one of my spare phones and it is easier now than it used to be ten years ago (speaking from experience), but you still need to have a phone that is supported, and the OEM needs to allow unlocking. I had to wait a couple of weeks to be able to unlock. So it’s definitely not trivial.
You’re glossing over a lot of complexity that the GrapheneOS team is doing for you
Not meaning to gloss over, it's their hard work that makes it a nice experience! It's always been the case that some devices are more moddable than others, comparing the ones that are simplest is the only comparison that really makes sense though.
As for users moving en masse it obviously wouldn't be trivial, but the theoretical removal of side-loading wouldn't happen overnight so there would hopefully be plenty of time for more solutions to pop up.
EU laws (btw, afaik, India has similar requirement now) is one of the reasons which will make disabling alternative installation option very complicated if Google would want to.
I do not think it will want to do this, though.
I love the EU.
Hoe does Apple comply ,
Law comes into effect march 2024. Apple will need to comply then
Watch how they will act like it was their decision.
AFAIK they have no way of doing that. This would be a huge undertaking.
Doesn't Apple already allow side loading to some degree?
You can just put an app onto a iDevice through iTunes, without having to run it through the App Store. Apple even puts out a specifically outdated version of iTunes that still retains much of the App functionality.
It's not as though they're trying to build the feature in from scratch.
I have a few side-loaded apps on my phone through TrollStore. iirc they don’t support anything relatively new though.
Why would it be a huge undertaking? Allowing installing apps from package files obtained from anywhere seems like a trivial change to the software for a company with a lot of resources.
Nope, Android itself is not restrictive, it's the extra add-ons by vendors that cause restrictions.
This is it.
I switched to Pixel phones ordered from Google. I can replace the software with whatever and not worry about breaking an eFuse warranty.
If they are going to restrict sideloading, they'll probably restrict bootloader unlocking too. In the future, just make sure you research the bootloader unlockablility before buying a phone, because the next pixel might be locked.
It's cellular providers who restrict bootloader locking generally. But you're right but that would go against the grain as the Pixel series are designed to be the flagship for AOSP
AOSP at the very least, but the average consumer doesn't really care much about Google Play Services or their Mainland China substitutes (obv cos great firewall).
For "official" Android products, maybe eventually.
In fact I can see a future where all computing/devices are locked down and become appliances, much like your tv or fridge.
You use them how you're "meant to". Sideloading? Programming? Tweaking? Why do you need to do that, are you a terrorist?
I hope we don't get to that world, but for a while now I've been thinking it looks like a possible outcome.
a future where all computing/devices are locked down
And who would mandate and control such a requirement? And how would it be enforced? And why?
The only reason Apple is locked down as it is, is that Apple as the only manufacturer has absolute control over architecture, hardware and software.
Being open will always be a unique selling point by at least some competing companies, so there will continue to be some, absent a dictatorship rigorously controlling the manufacture and sale of such devices. But I think not even China has managed to accomplish that. Open devices are an absolute necessity if you want research and technological progress. And if the industry needs it, some of it will inevitably become available to citizens, too.
As long as Android remains open-source, someone will always provide an alternative version if Google restricts the "official" OS
What other phones besides pixel, has an open boot loader?
I know at least some Xiaomi phones do. At least both of the ones I've had in the past were pretty painless to flash.
Good question. I believe OnePlus (or at least they used to), but I'm not sure.
I am using an OnePlus 8T and can confirm that, even if the bootloader does not come unlocked by default, it is very easy to unlock and flash and can also very easily go back (backup is needed because locking back will wipe the phone).
Done myself.
I was surprised when some recent Android introduced the option for non-GPlay apps to auto-update on the background.
Maybe it's just so that Google can avoid be called a monopoly, same with their support of Firefox.
EU also has some regulations in mind to force these vendors to allow installation of other apps, so we'll see.
No. Because if your write Software for Android you rely on the Android Debug Bridge (in short ADB). So it is an necessary part for debugging your Software. And ADB always allows installing New Software.
It won't be possible since even Apple is considering the possibility of sideloading apps because of EU's competition policy legislation. If Google does the same, i guess they'll just take a pretty good fine again
I don't think so, since that is one of the factors that makes Android "unique" as a mobile operating system since it gives you the freedom to install the app you want, it is in the official store or not
(sorry for my English)
There will always be a fork of AOSP even if google ditches it the community will keep it up.
I used to root my Android phones. Then I stopped because all banking apps were disallowing launch if your phone was detected as having root.
yeah i wish there was a reliable way to fix this, last time i checked there werent any. also those apps didnt even show up in play store (ex.: revolut)
I'm using revolut on a rooted device, no issues on 3 banking apps. Google Pay can be a hit or miss though, had it working a month ago but now it fails.
People complain about this as if it's some sort of massive roadblock that nobody's solved yet.
Magisk Hide handles this and has been around for years. Venture around on the relevant XDA forum and SEARCH
Can approve this. After each clean flash I just install universal safetynet fix module and enable zygisk. I am able to pass safetynet, it took my like 10 mins and I didn't need any super knowledge.
Rooting your phone and unlocking the bootloader are separate (and mostly independent) things. E.g., by default, LineageOS is not rooted, but it requires an unlocked bootloader to install. Now, rooting without an unlocked bootloader is harder.
You can just hide root from those apps. I have everything working, even Google Pay.
Back when I looked into this, which was more than half a decade ago, it was a nightmare to figure out what worked and what didn’t. The XDA community is also hard to distangle.
Maybe it’s changed since then but I didn’t have the time to look into what worked and what didn’t.
If you're talking about things like Google deprecating the two apps, then yes such things will continue. Google is slowly starting to sink (for whatever reason), and they are trying their hand at YouTube advertisements and Android.
But the source of Android is FOSS, and whilst Google does make up majority of the development efforts, if they were to close-source everything they would be causing massive ripples through the tech industry. I'm sure Samsung is going to try their (admittedly, very expensive) hand in court too if Google takes such a lick. So will Huawei and Xiaomi in the Chinese courts. Not to mention that Google benefits from the patches provided to Android from the FOSS community.
I don't think it's going to happen soon, if it does.
I think this is Google's long-term plan.
As others have stated, it will be illegal in the EU if that were to happen. However, it would probably cause issues with phone makers as well since they probably wouldn't be able to properly fork Android and slap their skins on top like ColorOS or Samsung's skin.
Actually you may not be too far off. Noticed recently that users don't have access to their Android>OBB or Data folders anymore through the normal files app. I know there is a workaround but I haven't been able to get it to work. This may not affect downloading/installing apk's from other sources, but if you have to manually install the OBB/Data you cannot do that.
Um I still can. You use a file explorer app (I use an app called ZArchiver) and find the directory, tap on it and there is a pop up telling you to grant it permission, then you will need to locate it using a android system file explorer, and once you find it, you can grant permission to access the directory to the app. I know its hard to describe using words, but I can record my screen and show it to you.
Edit: In android 13 the data and obb diectory aren't actually restricted to third party file explorers, only the sub-directories, like the files used by an app (those directories starting with "com.") are resteicted and you need to manually grant permission using the method I said. I can access data and obb just fine using ZArchiver.
This is what I meant, thank you for specifying :)
Solid Explorer has restored access to Android>obb and data folders since an update some time back fyi.
Hm, doesn't seem like it works for me. Still says that the Folder is locked for my privacy and protection or whatever. Thanks for the trying tho
It is weird, I have a Redmi Note 9s and my phone comes with both a xiaomi files app and a google files app. I can't see the data or obb folders with the xiaomi one but I can read and modify them with the google app one.
So I assume this limitation is only for third party apps?
What version of Android are you on?
Android 12 MIUI 14, got the update a week ago, but it has been like that since Android 11 if I'm not mistaken.
*From Android 13
But I have android 12... /jk
Sideloading must always remain available, but I feel like restricting the ability to unlock sideloading might be potentially beneficial. There have been reports of people getting their bank accounts emptied after sideloading some random app and giving it accessibility permissions. Preventing people from granting such permissions on impulse with a more tedious unlocking process could potentially benefit some.
Of course people will disagree. Why should we be inconvenienced for some idiots? It comes down to how willing you are to be inconvenienced for the safety of these people I guess. I already know I'll probably be downvoted given the tech inclined crowd on lemmy these days, but I personally wouldn't mind performing an adb command or smth. Something like executing an adb command once is a relatively small price to pay imo.
Well think of it this way:
The one of the common ways for someone to get their (windows) computer hacked is to get tricked into executing a .exe file. Hey why not block programs unless they are approved by windows? Let's call it Windows 10 S, S for Secure! (/sarcasm)
I mean maybe we could compromise a bit and hide the sideloading behind the developer options. Not connecting to a computer and ADB, just behind the developer menu. Most people don't even know how to get that menu, and the people who sideload will either already know it, or can easily find out after a quick internet search. As long as there is an option, I'll be able to find it.
No. This will conflict with EU laws.
Yup! Sideloading is legally required to be available by the EU Digital Markets Act by March 2024. Both Apple and Android must comply!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Markets_Act
Does apple comply? Just asking as I do not have an iphone and was under the impression its not possible.
It is rumored that Apple will allow sideloading in the EU in the next big iOS update.
The las was recently paseo, shock be followed by march 2024
side loading has always been available on apple Iphones, it's just been locked exclusively down to their developer program for debugging and testing purposes and said installed apps are only valid for a limited amount of time. I expect it will use the same framework that the dev program uses, just not as restricted. That being said i can forsee them region locking it.
Ahh, so the only thing saving us from a corporate dominated future is laws...
Well I'm an American, I'm sure if they wanted, they could always make a EU version and US version. I a bit worried for the future.
Android is open source, and there are many forks of it already. If they were to try this, those of us who care would just run a fork of Android.
Assuming that there will be phones with unlockable bootloaders sold in the US in the future. There are precious few of them now. Importing's always an option (and quite easy these days), but then you run into the problem of band support.
But the vast majority won't, and that's an issue.
Burning a new ROM is just as hard fora regular user as jailbreaking an iPhone, so practically it doesn’t make a difference if android is open-source or not.
Also, even though core android is OSS, what you and i run on our phones heavily depends on the play framework which is Google proprietary. Amazon has tried and failed to fork android before with its fire devices and that hasn’t worked.
FYI GrapheneOS is trivial to install (you don't need to do all that exploit and root nonsense you used to have to!) and runs entirely without Google Play Services (unless you want to install them in a less-invasive way, which is also officially supported)
Thanks, bug. It’s gotten better for those of us with some background, but I’d definitely not say it’s trivial for a regular android user to use. GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixels launched after August 2020 for starters. The recommended easy way to install GrapheneOS still needs you to OEM unlock and may need a factory reset as well. Jailbreaking might technically be harder, but this is hard enough.
The only way something like this can become mainstream is if popular smartphone manufacturers intentionally supported an alternative distribution (like GrapheneOS), which i don’t see happening for business reasons including the possibility of a fallout with Google.
Even though android is open-source, the hurdles for running an alternative are around the proprietary stuff we depend on in the ecosystem.
I'd say having a Pixel is the only real blocker, as unlocking the bootloader and factory resetting the phone are both a couple of clicks in the settings that anyone can follow. I remember the days of rooting and installing cyanogenmod on early Android phones and compared to that the process today is really trivial!
You’re glossing over a lot of complexity that the GrapheneOS team is doing for you. The reason that they only support Pixels is because Google is relatively open. Their FAQ says the following:
You can’t expect Android users to be able to en masse move to a fork if Google decides to close the tap.
I have LineageOS (CyanogenMod) running on one of my spare phones and it is easier now than it used to be ten years ago (speaking from experience), but you still need to have a phone that is supported, and the OEM needs to allow unlocking. I had to wait a couple of weeks to be able to unlock. So it’s definitely not trivial.
Not meaning to gloss over, it's their hard work that makes it a nice experience! It's always been the case that some devices are more moddable than others, comparing the ones that are simplest is the only comparison that really makes sense though.
As for users moving en masse it obviously wouldn't be trivial, but the theoretical removal of side-loading wouldn't happen overnight so there would hopefully be plenty of time for more solutions to pop up.
EU laws (btw, afaik, India has similar requirement now) is one of the reasons which will make disabling alternative installation option very complicated if Google would want to.
I do not think it will want to do this, though.
I love the EU.
Hoe does Apple comply ,
Law comes into effect march 2024. Apple will need to comply then
Watch how they will act like it was their decision.
AFAIK they have no way of doing that. This would be a huge undertaking.
Doesn't Apple already allow side loading to some degree?
You can just put an app onto a iDevice through iTunes, without having to run it through the App Store. Apple even puts out a specifically outdated version of iTunes that still retains much of the App functionality.
It's not as though they're trying to build the feature in from scratch.
I have a few side-loaded apps on my phone through TrollStore. iirc they don’t support anything relatively new though.
Why would it be a huge undertaking? Allowing installing apps from package files obtained from anywhere seems like a trivial change to the software for a company with a lot of resources.
They have until 2024 to comply
Nope, Android itself is not restrictive, it's the extra add-ons by vendors that cause restrictions.
This is it.
I switched to Pixel phones ordered from Google. I can replace the software with whatever and not worry about breaking an eFuse warranty.
If they are going to restrict sideloading, they'll probably restrict bootloader unlocking too. In the future, just make sure you research the bootloader unlockablility before buying a phone, because the next pixel might be locked.
It's cellular providers who restrict bootloader locking generally. But you're right but that would go against the grain as the Pixel series are designed to be the flagship for AOSP
AOSP at the very least, but the average consumer doesn't really care much about Google Play Services or their Mainland China substitutes (obv cos great firewall).
For "official" Android products, maybe eventually.
In fact I can see a future where all computing/devices are locked down and become appliances, much like your tv or fridge.
You use them how you're "meant to". Sideloading? Programming? Tweaking? Why do you need to do that, are you a terrorist?
I hope we don't get to that world, but for a while now I've been thinking it looks like a possible outcome.
And who would mandate and control such a requirement? And how would it be enforced? And why?
The only reason Apple is locked down as it is, is that Apple as the only manufacturer has absolute control over architecture, hardware and software.
Being open will always be a unique selling point by at least some competing companies, so there will continue to be some, absent a dictatorship rigorously controlling the manufacture and sale of such devices. But I think not even China has managed to accomplish that. Open devices are an absolute necessity if you want research and technological progress. And if the industry needs it, some of it will inevitably become available to citizens, too.
As long as Android remains open-source, someone will always provide an alternative version if Google restricts the "official" OS
What other phones besides pixel, has an open boot loader?
I know at least some Xiaomi phones do. At least both of the ones I've had in the past were pretty painless to flash.
Good question. I believe OnePlus (or at least they used to), but I'm not sure.
I am using an OnePlus 8T and can confirm that, even if the bootloader does not come unlocked by default, it is very easy to unlock and flash and can also very easily go back (backup is needed because locking back will wipe the phone). Done myself.
I was surprised when some recent Android introduced the option for non-GPlay apps to auto-update on the background.
Maybe it's just so that Google can avoid be called a monopoly, same with their support of Firefox.
EU also has some regulations in mind to force these vendors to allow installation of other apps, so we'll see.
No. Because if your write Software for Android you rely on the Android Debug Bridge (in short ADB). So it is an necessary part for debugging your Software. And ADB always allows installing New Software.
It won't be possible since even Apple is considering the possibility of sideloading apps because of EU's competition policy legislation. If Google does the same, i guess they'll just take a pretty good fine again
I don't think so, since that is one of the factors that makes Android "unique" as a mobile operating system since it gives you the freedom to install the app you want, it is in the official store or not
(sorry for my English)
There will always be a fork of AOSP even if google ditches it the community will keep it up.
I used to root my Android phones. Then I stopped because all banking apps were disallowing launch if your phone was detected as having root.
yeah i wish there was a reliable way to fix this, last time i checked there werent any. also those apps didnt even show up in play store (ex.: revolut)
I'm using revolut on a rooted device, no issues on 3 banking apps. Google Pay can be a hit or miss though, had it working a month ago but now it fails.
People complain about this as if it's some sort of massive roadblock that nobody's solved yet.
Magisk Hide handles this and has been around for years. Venture around on the relevant XDA forum and SEARCH
Can approve this. After each clean flash I just install universal safetynet fix module and enable zygisk. I am able to pass safetynet, it took my like 10 mins and I didn't need any super knowledge.
Rooting your phone and unlocking the bootloader are separate (and mostly independent) things. E.g., by default, LineageOS is not rooted, but it requires an unlocked bootloader to install. Now, rooting without an unlocked bootloader is harder.
You can just hide root from those apps. I have everything working, even Google Pay.
Back when I looked into this, which was more than half a decade ago, it was a nightmare to figure out what worked and what didn’t. The XDA community is also hard to distangle.
Maybe it’s changed since then but I didn’t have the time to look into what worked and what didn’t.
If you're talking about things like Google deprecating the two apps, then yes such things will continue. Google is slowly starting to sink (for whatever reason), and they are trying their hand at YouTube advertisements and Android.
But the source of Android is FOSS, and whilst Google does make up majority of the development efforts, if they were to close-source everything they would be causing massive ripples through the tech industry. I'm sure Samsung is going to try their (admittedly, very expensive) hand in court too if Google takes such a lick. So will Huawei and Xiaomi in the Chinese courts. Not to mention that Google benefits from the patches provided to Android from the FOSS community.
I don't think it's going to happen soon, if it does.
I think this is Google's long-term plan.
As others have stated, it will be illegal in the EU if that were to happen. However, it would probably cause issues with phone makers as well since they probably wouldn't be able to properly fork Android and slap their skins on top like ColorOS or Samsung's skin.
Actually you may not be too far off. Noticed recently that users don't have access to their Android>OBB or Data folders anymore through the normal files app. I know there is a workaround but I haven't been able to get it to work. This may not affect downloading/installing apk's from other sources, but if you have to manually install the OBB/Data you cannot do that.
Um I still can. You use a file explorer app (I use an app called ZArchiver) and find the directory, tap on it and there is a pop up telling you to grant it permission, then you will need to locate it using a android system file explorer, and once you find it, you can grant permission to access the directory to the app. I know its hard to describe using words, but I can record my screen and show it to you.
Edit: In android 13 the data and obb diectory aren't actually restricted to third party file explorers, only the sub-directories, like the files used by an app (those directories starting with "com.") are resteicted and you need to manually grant permission using the method I said. I can access data and obb just fine using ZArchiver.
This is what I meant, thank you for specifying :)
Solid Explorer has restored access to Android>obb and data folders since an update some time back fyi.
Hm, doesn't seem like it works for me. Still says that the Folder is locked for my privacy and protection or whatever. Thanks for the trying tho
It is weird, I have a Redmi Note 9s and my phone comes with both a xiaomi files app and a google files app. I can't see the data or obb folders with the xiaomi one but I can read and modify them with the google app one.
So I assume this limitation is only for third party apps?
What version of Android are you on?
Android 12 MIUI 14, got the update a week ago, but it has been like that since Android 11 if I'm not mistaken.
*From Android 13
But I have android 12... /jk
Sideloading must always remain available, but I feel like restricting the ability to unlock sideloading might be potentially beneficial. There have been reports of people getting their bank accounts emptied after sideloading some random app and giving it accessibility permissions. Preventing people from granting such permissions on impulse with a more tedious unlocking process could potentially benefit some.
Of course people will disagree. Why should we be inconvenienced for some idiots? It comes down to how willing you are to be inconvenienced for the safety of these people I guess. I already know I'll probably be downvoted given the tech inclined crowd on lemmy these days, but I personally wouldn't mind performing an adb command or smth. Something like executing an adb command once is a relatively small price to pay imo.
Well think of it this way:
The one of the common ways for someone to get their (windows) computer hacked is to get tricked into executing a .exe file. Hey why not block programs unless they are approved by windows? Let's call it Windows 10 S, S for Secure! (/sarcasm)
I mean maybe we could compromise a bit and hide the sideloading behind the developer options. Not connecting to a computer and ADB, just behind the developer menu. Most people don't even know how to get that menu, and the people who sideload will either already know it, or can easily find out after a quick internet search. As long as there is an option, I'll be able to find it.