When it comes down to it, this is a hell of a deal for the US. We spend a tiny fraction of our military budget to de-fang Putin and don't have to fire a single shot ourselves.
Better than defanging is real world testing.
What worked as expected, what didn't, how we can make it better etc.
It's not often you get to deploy these weapons.
What will happen to the US defense budget now that we know it's unnecessary?
That was rhetorical by the way, I know it's going to increase.
Not sure about "unnecessary." 5% works for Ukraine but also it has a much smaller land mass. You can't use that 5% to protect the entirety of the US' borders along with every other place we are stationed along with the required ongoing maintenance
I'm not saying the budget isn't ridiculously high, but also saying it's unnecessary as a whole is just incorrect
5% is also us supplying to Ukraine a fraction of their needs, and few of the core costs of a military - like personnel costs, which make up 40% of the US military budget.
The military budget is bloated, just... not nearly to the degree people think.
True. Hospital higher ups probably thought that extra hospital beds were extra money/upkeep that would be better spent elsewhere. So they cut it back to meet the average use. Then covid hit and everyone freaked out for a while because their patient count had a huge spike and no resources for a surge like that. It seems like we're already forgetting those lessons
For emergency services a little extra seems like a waste until you need it. Most European militaries would struggle for a while if a war were to break out because they are geared toward normal needs. Ukraine has been a wake up call and now they are getting the funding to modernize and start increasing to a more capable size.
I know. It's just absurd taken as a whole. Even something as small as ending the 1033 would do much to quell me
Yep, we have to defend our super long boarders with those dangerous aggressive nations called Canada & Mexico.
Imagine thinking if we went to war that other countries couldn't possibly use the fucking water
Well not after midnight anyway... or was that eating?
still necessary. russia isn't the only potential adversary out there
Right now, the main talking point driving it up is China, not Ukraine.
Which may not even happen. China has some financial problems both short (real estate crisis) and long (one-child policies causing a population crunch with lots of old people and few young people). It's thought that they need to invade Taiwan in the next 8 years if they're going to do it at all, but that window may already be closing.
Not that any of that ever got in the way of building an even bigger navy.
Unfortunately, great powers that have recently peaked and are beginning their inevitable decline are at their most dangerous. It's when they're still powerful but feel a need to prove it. See the Soviets in the 80s, USA in the 2000s, China in the 2020s-30s.
Short of deciding we suddenly don't need a navy, there's not as much space as one might think for cutting 'fat' from the budget. Even the Obama-era proposal for shrinking the budget still came out to 500 billion, and that was with cuts to the bone - and 10 years of inflation to adjust for.
Watch the Ukranian drone ops teams taking contracts after this is all done. The Winged Hussars ride again! 🤘🏼💀
There was an article a few days ago about how the soldiers stopped following some of their western training as it wasn't working / appropriate for their situation.
I imagine there will also be some cross training where they update the American soldiers on what worked and didn't work and why.
From what I heard that seemed to be mainly two factors where the situations were different than most conflicts the Western forces have been in in a good while.
Lack of air support. The air is still contested over Ukraine.
Minefields everywhere
No offense Germany, but you gotta fix your military.
A lot of the Ukrainians complaining about poor training / equipment are the ones getting German gear it seems. That's... okay. Some training is better than none, and Germany is sending good tanks / equipment after all. But Germany definitely is underperforming IMO given its economic level of output and overall strength of the country.
I mean, we kinda made sure of that, as a general collective global community? Considering, you know, "last time"? 😅😬
I'm not sure just how much the US spends on weapon testing, but I imagine it's a bonkers number. And now they get an opportunity to test in a real environment, with some other country's army to do much of the heavy lifting?
I do software dev and testing stuff is expensive. Real world testing is a particularly difficult and pricey thing to do. It's not easy to simulate realistic usage and it's super common to discover all sorts of issues only when something is used outside of controlled conditions. That's why so many web products get the hug of death. It's why Lemmy has had so many problems not just with scaling, but things like UX. It's so easy to not realize even "obvious" problems when you don't have a large number of real users.
Real world testing is a particularly difficult and pricey thing to do
I don't often test, but when I do, it's in prod.
Bonkers is right, and you’re absolutely correct. Another factor to the real world tests is the human experience. A soldier who’s fired real rounds downrange will be that little bit more quick and calm the next time shit hits the fan. Ivan keeps bashing his face against our dusty old armor systems and all they’re doing is feeding the sunflowers and seasoning Ukrainian grunts for battle. Once they start fielding all NATO munitions it’s gonna get real ugly for the Kremlin.
Well and its old equipment not stuff coming right off the line which would have to be decommissioned at cost at eol.
Not that im against defanging putin, but then the next one will come and the next one and the next one. Are there even russians that are not pro war?
Maybe you are being genuine so I'll try to be too, you're wrong to fear what comes next. Historically new leaders don't in totalitarian states don't want an external war, they want to secure their lot, make sure they are protected, shore up support.
Children are being kidnapped, prisoners of war ar being tortured, civilians raped, towns and cities cut off from water or flooded, left to freeze over winter. What exactly do you think is coming next? Someone with more efficiency? Less morals? Thanos?
I was being genuine, sorry if it sounded rude.
I guess with all the shit happening in the world, i feel... hopeless
Fair enough, "the devil you know" argument is flawed and is oft thrown around by the apathetic.
Your feelings are justified but generally speaking things are trending upwards, progress marches on
there are but most of them left the country
Those who could left, not those who didn't support. Majority of people who are against invasion don't have money to leave.
Are there even russians that are not pro war?
Yes there are
Let's see... From top of my head: Boris Nemtsov, Alexey Navalny, Ekaterina Shulman, entire Anti-Corruption Foundation and more than half of alive Russian soldiers(counting dead soldiers more than 2/3).
"This is not war of Russia and Ukraine. I an against such definition. This is Putin's war."
- Boris Nemtsov, before he was shot on bridge near Kremlin wall
P.s. funny story about soldiers. Some idiots(thank you, idiots!) from Omsk decided to open voting station near front line for governor and regional parlament. Since soldiers officially don't have internet, there was no Remote Electronic Voting(ДЭГ) and 100% voted with paper. And since paint protocols and stuff boxes is scary in front of armed men, it wasn't done at usual scale. In result hard-core pro-war United Russia governor candidate got less than 50% and I think even lost on those stations.
It doesn't really matter if you're pro-war if you no longer have a standing army. At that point, it's just wishful thinking.
When it comes down to it, this is a hell of a deal for the US. We spend a tiny fraction of our military budget to de-fang Putin and don't have to fire a single shot ourselves.
Better than defanging is real world testing.
What worked as expected, what didn't, how we can make it better etc.
It's not often you get to deploy these weapons.
What will happen to the US defense budget now that we know it's unnecessary?
That was rhetorical by the way, I know it's going to increase.
Not sure about "unnecessary." 5% works for Ukraine but also it has a much smaller land mass. You can't use that 5% to protect the entirety of the US' borders along with every other place we are stationed along with the required ongoing maintenance
I'm not saying the budget isn't ridiculously high, but also saying it's unnecessary as a whole is just incorrect
5% is also us supplying to Ukraine a fraction of their needs, and few of the core costs of a military - like personnel costs, which make up 40% of the US military budget.
The military budget is bloated, just... not nearly to the degree people think.
True. Hospital higher ups probably thought that extra hospital beds were extra money/upkeep that would be better spent elsewhere. So they cut it back to meet the average use. Then covid hit and everyone freaked out for a while because their patient count had a huge spike and no resources for a surge like that. It seems like we're already forgetting those lessons
For emergency services a little extra seems like a waste until you need it. Most European militaries would struggle for a while if a war were to break out because they are geared toward normal needs. Ukraine has been a wake up call and now they are getting the funding to modernize and start increasing to a more capable size.
I know. It's just absurd taken as a whole. Even something as small as ending the 1033 would do much to quell me
Yep, we have to defend our super long boarders with those dangerous aggressive nations called Canada & Mexico.
Imagine thinking if we went to war that other countries couldn't possibly use the fucking water
Well not after midnight anyway... or was that eating?
still necessary. russia isn't the only potential adversary out there
Right now, the main talking point driving it up is China, not Ukraine.
Which may not even happen. China has some financial problems both short (real estate crisis) and long (one-child policies causing a population crunch with lots of old people and few young people). It's thought that they need to invade Taiwan in the next 8 years if they're going to do it at all, but that window may already be closing.
Not that any of that ever got in the way of building an even bigger navy.
Unfortunately, great powers that have recently peaked and are beginning their inevitable decline are at their most dangerous. It's when they're still powerful but feel a need to prove it. See the Soviets in the 80s, USA in the 2000s, China in the 2020s-30s.
Short of deciding we suddenly don't need a navy, there's not as much space as one might think for cutting 'fat' from the budget. Even the Obama-era proposal for shrinking the budget still came out to 500 billion, and that was with cuts to the bone - and 10 years of inflation to adjust for.
Watch the Ukranian drone ops teams taking contracts after this is all done. The Winged Hussars ride again! 🤘🏼💀
There was an article a few days ago about how the soldiers stopped following some of their western training as it wasn't working / appropriate for their situation.
I imagine there will also be some cross training where they update the American soldiers on what worked and didn't work and why.
From what I heard that seemed to be mainly two factors where the situations were different than most conflicts the Western forces have been in in a good while.
Lack of air support. The air is still contested over Ukraine.
Minefields everywhere
A lot of the Ukrainians complaining about poor training / equipment are the ones getting German gear it seems. That's... okay. Some training is better than none, and Germany is sending good tanks / equipment after all. But Germany definitely is underperforming IMO given its economic level of output and overall strength of the country.
I mean, we kinda made sure of that, as a general collective global community? Considering, you know, "last time"? 😅😬
I'm not sure just how much the US spends on weapon testing, but I imagine it's a bonkers number. And now they get an opportunity to test in a real environment, with some other country's army to do much of the heavy lifting?
I do software dev and testing stuff is expensive. Real world testing is a particularly difficult and pricey thing to do. It's not easy to simulate realistic usage and it's super common to discover all sorts of issues only when something is used outside of controlled conditions. That's why so many web products get the hug of death. It's why Lemmy has had so many problems not just with scaling, but things like UX. It's so easy to not realize even "obvious" problems when you don't have a large number of real users.
I don't often test, but when I do, it's in prod.
Bonkers is right, and you’re absolutely correct. Another factor to the real world tests is the human experience. A soldier who’s fired real rounds downrange will be that little bit more quick and calm the next time shit hits the fan. Ivan keeps bashing his face against our dusty old armor systems and all they’re doing is feeding the sunflowers and seasoning Ukrainian grunts for battle. Once they start fielding all NATO munitions it’s gonna get real ugly for the Kremlin.
Well and its old equipment not stuff coming right off the line which would have to be decommissioned at cost at eol.
Not that im against defanging putin, but then the next one will come and the next one and the next one. Are there even russians that are not pro war?
Maybe you are being genuine so I'll try to be too, you're wrong to fear what comes next. Historically new leaders don't in totalitarian states don't want an external war, they want to secure their lot, make sure they are protected, shore up support.
Children are being kidnapped, prisoners of war ar being tortured, civilians raped, towns and cities cut off from water or flooded, left to freeze over winter. What exactly do you think is coming next? Someone with more efficiency? Less morals? Thanos?
I was being genuine, sorry if it sounded rude.
I guess with all the shit happening in the world, i feel... hopeless
Fair enough, "the devil you know" argument is flawed and is oft thrown around by the apathetic.
Your feelings are justified but generally speaking things are trending upwards, progress marches on
there are but most of them left the country
Those who could left, not those who didn't support. Majority of people who are against invasion don't have money to leave.
Yes there are
Let's see... From top of my head: Boris Nemtsov, Alexey Navalny, Ekaterina Shulman, entire Anti-Corruption Foundation and more than half of alive Russian soldiers(counting dead soldiers more than 2/3).
"This is not war of Russia and Ukraine. I an against such definition. This is Putin's war."
- Boris Nemtsov, before he was shot on bridge near Kremlin wall
P.s. funny story about soldiers. Some idiots(thank you, idiots!) from Omsk decided to open voting station near front line for governor and regional parlament. Since soldiers officially don't have internet, there was no Remote Electronic Voting(ДЭГ) and 100% voted with paper. And since paint protocols and stuff boxes is scary in front of armed men, it wasn't done at usual scale. In result hard-core pro-war United Russia governor candidate got less than 50% and I think even lost on those stations.
It doesn't really matter if you're pro-war if you no longer have a standing army. At that point, it's just wishful thinking.