I’ve always thought being “proud” of your race, any race, is a weird concept.
Like, you didn’t do anything to be white, or black, or asian. Why would you take pride in something you had no agency in?
It's a participation prize. Congratulations, you were born.
I "proud" of my poor eye sight, and and "proud" of my genetic high cholesterol 🎊🔥💯
I don't get it. Why would one be? The whole point of pride is to in some sense feel and experience joy over the things that we like about ourselves or that stand out in a positive way. But maybe I'm missing something.
With whites you definitely have a point, but it’s a little different when whites have at various times in history attempted to erase your culture in numerous ways, including outlawing your language, clothing, music, dance, martial arts, traditional healing systems, religious beliefs, hair styles, etc, while converting you to what they believe to be valid and acceptable.
That’s being proud of your culture though, not your race. Culture is something you willingly engage in, and you definitely have the right to be proud of it (and that includes Italian culture, Greek culture and all other types of white culture as well).
But race? Saying “I’m proud of being black” means nothing when American black people and African black people barely have anything in common that isn’t the color of their skin.
Culture is very much tied to race and where those people came from. It still happens now. It should be obvious without explanation. It’s not at all difficult to find stories about black students sent home from school because their hair is “not ok.”
It’s tied but it’s different. A lot of third+ generation immigrants have the same customs as locals, and you wouldn’t tell them apart if not for physical traits, for example.
It’s also weird how stuff that used to be shamed about turned to reasons of pride. We (as in, non-racist people) realized shaming people for their hair is stupid, why would being proud of it not be just as stupid?
It’s not weird at all. If one race has systematically tried to beat you down throughout history and convince you that your race and culture are inferior, there’s all the reason in the world to reclaim respect for all that your people almost lost, and tell that race to fuck off if they don’t like it, and be proud of it. Gay pride isn’t race based, but it’s definitely a similar thing from a different direction. It sounds like you need to spend significant time sitting and talking with people of cultures that have been through it.
It’s correct to demand equality and apologies for what happened in the past, but beyond it isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
I would love to talk more about this with people who are directly involved in it, but even then, races/sexualities are not a monolith and that person I spoke to might have a completely different opinion from the rest. Plus I feel like you need to be very intimate with someone to have that kind of talk, so it’s not easy at all. I also comment my opinions on the internet because it’s a simple way of finding people who disagree and might give you a different point of view.
isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
You still have plenty of time to talk to people and change your viewpoint.
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Sure, I didn’t think that’s what they mean, but that’s what it feels like. If it’s not the same as “being proud of your culture”, what’s the other difference?
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
But again, that’s culture. Isn’t it better to say you’re proud of what you do, instead of what you are?
I think I’ve said enough already. It feels like you’re just pushing an agenda instead of trying to understand. Which, oddly enough, is historically how some of all this came about to begin with.
I’m honestly trying to look at stuff from the most neutral stance possible, but I guess being white in a region with 96% white people is bound to give me some bias, I’m sorry if that’s how I came off as.
That’s also why talking about this with someone I’m not intimate with is hard, they might feel like I have bad intentions and cut the discussion altogether.
Well, for the first time, a certain group of white people feel threatened that they’re the ones being erased now, despite that being totally untrue, so those people are playing a victim card and trying to claim the same level of erasure now that other races actually experienced as minorities in the past under a white majority. And it isn’t working out well, because the claim is artificial, and a great deal of the white culture that has “been lost” is simply not being in a position of power over other races or getting preferential treatment for opportunities. That’s what all the “white pride” nonsense is about, something that they shouldn’t be proud about to begin with. It’s not the same thing. Meanwhile other races have that history of actually being oppressed, so the concept of racial pride and preserving their racial ties and culture is entirely different for them.
But then again, isn’t the difference only that a group has been oppressed and the other hasn’t?
I don’t really get this concept of “racial pride”. Alliance, brotherhood, any kind of cooperation between people who face the same struggles is clearly going to be stronger between groups who faced more hardships, but I feel like being “proud” of your skin color is just pointless.
Another commenter brought the example of Candace Owens, she’s black, but considering her actions does that mean anything at all?
That's different though, the point of gay pride is recognising that your value in society and your person ought to be respected, against a larger imposing force or hivemind so to speak, just like black pride, etc, and valuing your open expression of pride, closeted queers could just as easily argue that being in the closet is about valuing your own person on an internal level rather than how others may expect you to express yourself - ie, you may value yourself in a way different from how society does. Just like how some sex workers view themselves as tools, not sex toys but rather as healers and value themselves as such, once you dig deep down on all this, you'll realise that gay pride is as much a "reaction" of the person to society as being closeted would be, one is preferable to individualist cultures, the other is more conformist, either way you pick your poison.
Seriously, I said similar from a different direction, not the same.
Lying about who you are is not psychologically healthy and should not be praised or encouraged.
That's not the point of the comment I made nor is it really a response that actually addresses the point I made, would you like to try again?
People who unironically feel conflicted about being proud of overcoming or experiencing XYZ, e.g. taking a big dump or something as simple as eating an extra large McDonald's double junior whopper, would like to dispute that pride is more often than not understanding that being ashamed of something is giving away your agency, by automatically saying, that was bad, the end, whereas being prideful at least gives you opportunity to reflect on the value of the experience itself rather than to simply paint it as inherently good or bad.
Because racist people still exist and still control the narrative, that's why. Pride is protection.
True that. Candice Ownens is the perfect example of a racist POC disowning their entire culture to not be associated with anyone but white Republicans. She's culturally white and it's a choice.
I always read black as "American black people", and there there definitely is a shared culture, of having ancestors that were slaves and not knowing where in Africa they came from because the slavers didn't care
That's because their ancestors experienced a forced diaspora and slavery that was partially designed to destroy their sense of culture and identity. It's a distinct group of people from Africans. Black is just how they choose to refer to themselves.
These sociological definitions aren't always perfect. Strictly speaking, Musk is African, but he isn't who you usually think of as part of that group.
This is the most obnoxious pedantry I've ever heard. Black Americans celebrate their old world origins just as much as Irish Americans celebrate theirs. They can't be more specific to the tribe or country because that knowledge was fucking erased. Black is the culture, broadly speaking.
If you belong to a group that has been historically oppressed, being proud of your race/culture is a sign of rebellion.
It’s weird to have pride in race if you experience no adversity because of it. Since white people don’t face the same kind of challenges white pride just feels like “I’m proud of my privilege”, whereas with black pride it’s more “I’m proud of who I am despite the challenges I face because of it”. Same goes for other things like LGBT pride, it’s celebrating who they are even if it cause them a lot of hardship.
Couldn't it be sort of an affiliation with the full history of the White Man, for better or for worse? I don't take pride in my skin color, but it does represent a fascinating time in human history and early human migration. This is purely academic of course, no actual person who says they are "proud of being white" would ever say that or likely even be aware of the history and the science, but it could be.
The problem lies in the definition of "pride". You can be proud of who you are without comparing yourself to others. You can be proud of who you are without thinking less of others, or treat them as inferiors. In fact I'd say it's mandatory but not everyone gets that.
Not sure where I'm going with this, not arguing for or against per se, just exploring the concept because it's complex, interesting, and sadly ever so topical.
Agreed
Anyway "white" is too broad an identifier to mean anything, unlike groups which have had their cultures systematically oppressed. There's already widely accepted celebrations of "Irish pride", "Italian pride", "Polish pride", etc. Not a lot of specifically "English pride" celebrations because the British empire already made that the default for centuries.
This "pride" thing is specifically meant to mean "we survived, and continue to survive." Anyone advocating for "white pride" doesn't even understand what they're talking about. There is no "white identity" to be protected because it has never been under threat of annihilation. It's like stationing a battalion of troops around a public park in a suburb because you're convinced that The Enemy wants to take it over. Nobody's coming for your playground equipment.
If you look close enough at the definition of any word, it kind of breaks apart.
It's all semantics either way, just treat people with kindness and respect, and then you can be proud of who you are. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with being "proud" of ones features or traits. For instance, I have very blue eyes that have passed down through a ridiculous number of generations (n.b. not the exact same set), and I'm "proud" of them, in the sense that I'm glad I have them, that they remind me of my heritage and ancestry and family, and I hope that they will pass on to my offspring. I won't cry myself to sleep if they don't, but I think it's "nice".
Is there something wrong with me feeling this way? I don't think so. How could it be? It's nobody's business how I feel about my eyes. I go out of my way to treat people with kindness and respect, and I am proud of that. But also the eye thing.
Maybe that's the problem, perhaps we should just stop nagging and lecturing each other on our identities and preferences all the god damned time. Aren't you all tired of it also?
I can relate, I also have a weird hair quirk my grandma had as well, I like it and I’m glad I have it, but I wouldn’t really say I’m “proud” of it.
Yes, in the end it’s all semantics and there’s nothing really “wrong” with it, I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I think you accidentally hit the nail on the head there. When you and I feel proud of our features, we are proud over the features themselves- not proud of identifying as part of the group of "all blue eyed people" or "all weird hair quirk people".
It's the affiliation with, to a greater or lesser extent, some group, and that group's interests:
As a proud blue-eyed person, I couldn't care less about what all other blue-eyed persons think, and unless there'd be fewer than a thousand left of us I couldn't even conceive of any collective agenda such a group might have had.
As a proud black person, I would be highly motivated to care about and affiliate with all other black persons, because they would share experiences with me, and to a great extent negative or hateful.
As a proud homosexual, I would likewise affiliate with others of my kind or who have had similar experiences.
Even as a proud Ultras member, I can see how you would affiliate like so, even if the reason for it would rest on an artificial division between some arbitrary group- belonging to Ultras is not a physical trait, it's made up, but there at least is some rationale.
As a proud white person? If white people were selectively persecuted, I sure as hell would affiliate with them, but they aren't.
I’ve always thought being “proud” of your race, any race, is a weird concept.
Like, you didn’t do anything to be white, or black, or asian. Why would you take pride in something you had no agency in?
It's a participation prize. Congratulations, you were born.
I "proud" of my poor eye sight, and and "proud" of my genetic high cholesterol 🎊🔥💯
I don't get it. Why would one be? The whole point of pride is to in some sense feel and experience joy over the things that we like about ourselves or that stand out in a positive way. But maybe I'm missing something.
With whites you definitely have a point, but it’s a little different when whites have at various times in history attempted to erase your culture in numerous ways, including outlawing your language, clothing, music, dance, martial arts, traditional healing systems, religious beliefs, hair styles, etc, while converting you to what they believe to be valid and acceptable.
That’s being proud of your culture though, not your race. Culture is something you willingly engage in, and you definitely have the right to be proud of it (and that includes Italian culture, Greek culture and all other types of white culture as well).
But race? Saying “I’m proud of being black” means nothing when American black people and African black people barely have anything in common that isn’t the color of their skin.
Culture is very much tied to race and where those people came from. It still happens now. It should be obvious without explanation. It’s not at all difficult to find stories about black students sent home from school because their hair is “not ok.”
It’s tied but it’s different. A lot of third+ generation immigrants have the same customs as locals, and you wouldn’t tell them apart if not for physical traits, for example.
It’s also weird how stuff that used to be shamed about turned to reasons of pride. We (as in, non-racist people) realized shaming people for their hair is stupid, why would being proud of it not be just as stupid?
It’s not weird at all. If one race has systematically tried to beat you down throughout history and convince you that your race and culture are inferior, there’s all the reason in the world to reclaim respect for all that your people almost lost, and tell that race to fuck off if they don’t like it, and be proud of it. Gay pride isn’t race based, but it’s definitely a similar thing from a different direction. It sounds like you need to spend significant time sitting and talking with people of cultures that have been through it.
It’s correct to demand equality and apologies for what happened in the past, but beyond it isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
I would love to talk more about this with people who are directly involved in it, but even then, races/sexualities are not a monolith and that person I spoke to might have a completely different opinion from the rest. Plus I feel like you need to be very intimate with someone to have that kind of talk, so it’s not easy at all. I also comment my opinions on the internet because it’s a simple way of finding people who disagree and might give you a different point of view.
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
You still have plenty of time to talk to people and change your viewpoint.
Sure, I didn’t think that’s what they mean, but that’s what it feels like. If it’s not the same as “being proud of your culture”, what’s the other difference?
But again, that’s culture. Isn’t it better to say you’re proud of what you do, instead of what you are?
I think I’ve said enough already. It feels like you’re just pushing an agenda instead of trying to understand. Which, oddly enough, is historically how some of all this came about to begin with.
I’m honestly trying to look at stuff from the most neutral stance possible, but I guess being white in a region with 96% white people is bound to give me some bias, I’m sorry if that’s how I came off as.
That’s also why talking about this with someone I’m not intimate with is hard, they might feel like I have bad intentions and cut the discussion altogether.
Well, for the first time, a certain group of white people feel threatened that they’re the ones being erased now, despite that being totally untrue, so those people are playing a victim card and trying to claim the same level of erasure now that other races actually experienced as minorities in the past under a white majority. And it isn’t working out well, because the claim is artificial, and a great deal of the white culture that has “been lost” is simply not being in a position of power over other races or getting preferential treatment for opportunities. That’s what all the “white pride” nonsense is about, something that they shouldn’t be proud about to begin with. It’s not the same thing. Meanwhile other races have that history of actually being oppressed, so the concept of racial pride and preserving their racial ties and culture is entirely different for them.
But then again, isn’t the difference only that a group has been oppressed and the other hasn’t?
I don’t really get this concept of “racial pride”. Alliance, brotherhood, any kind of cooperation between people who face the same struggles is clearly going to be stronger between groups who faced more hardships, but I feel like being “proud” of your skin color is just pointless.
Another commenter brought the example of Candace Owens, she’s black, but considering her actions does that mean anything at all?
That's different though, the point of gay pride is recognising that your value in society and your person ought to be respected, against a larger imposing force or hivemind so to speak, just like black pride, etc, and valuing your open expression of pride, closeted queers could just as easily argue that being in the closet is about valuing your own person on an internal level rather than how others may expect you to express yourself - ie, you may value yourself in a way different from how society does. Just like how some sex workers view themselves as tools, not sex toys but rather as healers and value themselves as such, once you dig deep down on all this, you'll realise that gay pride is as much a "reaction" of the person to society as being closeted would be, one is preferable to individualist cultures, the other is more conformist, either way you pick your poison.
Seriously, I said similar from a different direction, not the same.
Lying about who you are is not psychologically healthy and should not be praised or encouraged.
That's not the point of the comment I made nor is it really a response that actually addresses the point I made, would you like to try again?
People who unironically feel conflicted about being proud of overcoming or experiencing XYZ, e.g. taking a big dump or something as simple as eating an extra large McDonald's double junior whopper, would like to dispute that pride is more often than not understanding that being ashamed of something is giving away your agency, by automatically saying, that was bad, the end, whereas being prideful at least gives you opportunity to reflect on the value of the experience itself rather than to simply paint it as inherently good or bad.
Because racist people still exist and still control the narrative, that's why. Pride is protection.
True that. Candice Ownens is the perfect example of a racist POC disowning their entire culture to not be associated with anyone but white Republicans. She's culturally white and it's a choice.
I always read black as "American black people", and there there definitely is a shared culture, of having ancestors that were slaves and not knowing where in Africa they came from because the slavers didn't care
That's because their ancestors experienced a forced diaspora and slavery that was partially designed to destroy their sense of culture and identity. It's a distinct group of people from Africans. Black is just how they choose to refer to themselves.
These sociological definitions aren't always perfect. Strictly speaking, Musk is African, but he isn't who you usually think of as part of that group.
This is the most obnoxious pedantry I've ever heard. Black Americans celebrate their old world origins just as much as Irish Americans celebrate theirs. They can't be more specific to the tribe or country because that knowledge was fucking erased. Black is the culture, broadly speaking.
If you belong to a group that has been historically oppressed, being proud of your race/culture is a sign of rebellion.
It’s weird to have pride in race if you experience no adversity because of it. Since white people don’t face the same kind of challenges white pride just feels like “I’m proud of my privilege”, whereas with black pride it’s more “I’m proud of who I am despite the challenges I face because of it”. Same goes for other things like LGBT pride, it’s celebrating who they are even if it cause them a lot of hardship.
Couldn't it be sort of an affiliation with the full history of the White Man, for better or for worse? I don't take pride in my skin color, but it does represent a fascinating time in human history and early human migration. This is purely academic of course, no actual person who says they are "proud of being white" would ever say that or likely even be aware of the history and the science, but it could be.
The problem lies in the definition of "pride". You can be proud of who you are without comparing yourself to others. You can be proud of who you are without thinking less of others, or treat them as inferiors. In fact I'd say it's mandatory but not everyone gets that.
Not sure where I'm going with this, not arguing for or against per se, just exploring the concept because it's complex, interesting, and sadly ever so topical.
Agreed
Anyway "white" is too broad an identifier to mean anything, unlike groups which have had their cultures systematically oppressed. There's already widely accepted celebrations of "Irish pride", "Italian pride", "Polish pride", etc. Not a lot of specifically "English pride" celebrations because the British empire already made that the default for centuries.
This "pride" thing is specifically meant to mean "we survived, and continue to survive." Anyone advocating for "white pride" doesn't even understand what they're talking about. There is no "white identity" to be protected because it has never been under threat of annihilation. It's like stationing a battalion of troops around a public park in a suburb because you're convinced that The Enemy wants to take it over. Nobody's coming for your playground equipment.
If you look close enough at the definition of any word, it kind of breaks apart.
It's all semantics either way, just treat people with kindness and respect, and then you can be proud of who you are. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with being "proud" of ones features or traits. For instance, I have very blue eyes that have passed down through a ridiculous number of generations (n.b. not the exact same set), and I'm "proud" of them, in the sense that I'm glad I have them, that they remind me of my heritage and ancestry and family, and I hope that they will pass on to my offspring. I won't cry myself to sleep if they don't, but I think it's "nice".
Is there something wrong with me feeling this way? I don't think so. How could it be? It's nobody's business how I feel about my eyes. I go out of my way to treat people with kindness and respect, and I am proud of that. But also the eye thing.
Maybe that's the problem, perhaps we should just stop nagging and lecturing each other on our identities and preferences all the god damned time. Aren't you all tired of it also?
I can relate, I also have a weird hair quirk my grandma had as well, I like it and I’m glad I have it, but I wouldn’t really say I’m “proud” of it.
Yes, in the end it’s all semantics and there’s nothing really “wrong” with it, I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I think you accidentally hit the nail on the head there. When you and I feel proud of our features, we are proud over the features themselves- not proud of identifying as part of the group of "all blue eyed people" or "all weird hair quirk people".
It's the affiliation with, to a greater or lesser extent, some group, and that group's interests:
As a proud blue-eyed person, I couldn't care less about what all other blue-eyed persons think, and unless there'd be fewer than a thousand left of us I couldn't even conceive of any collective agenda such a group might have had.
As a proud black person, I would be highly motivated to care about and affiliate with all other black persons, because they would share experiences with me, and to a great extent negative or hateful.
As a proud homosexual, I would likewise affiliate with others of my kind or who have had similar experiences.
Even as a proud Ultras member, I can see how you would affiliate like so, even if the reason for it would rest on an artificial division between some arbitrary group- belonging to Ultras is not a physical trait, it's made up, but there at least is some rationale.
As a proud white person? If white people were selectively persecuted, I sure as hell would affiliate with them, but they aren't.