The infrastructure isn't there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they're really expensive is actually secondary considering they're just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there's no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It's sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can't afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
an extension cord.
This is just not a practical day-to-day solution. Most people don't have a parking spot right outside their window that they can reliably use for charging. There is often a sidewalk that the cord would have to cross, creating the opportunity for someone to trip and sue you. There is often landscaping between buildings and parking, creating the opportunity for the landscapers to accidentally run over your cord with their lawnmower. Some asshole is going to walk by and unplug your car and then you may be late to work.
Sure, you could it, but it's not a practical solution.
I mean, sure, when you dont want to do it, its easy to really cook up a convuluted scenario to justify not doing it.
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Oh god, the horror of 6 cords. You're right, the world cant support such madness.
if you don't like EVs, thats fine. Don't gotta keep playing this game of "UNLESS ITS 1000% PERFECT, WE CANT HAVE IT".
I do like EV's! I'm looking forward to the day when its practical for me to have one. I want less vehicle maintenance and I hope that the cost to charge it is less than it would cost to put gasoline in an equivalent ice vehicle.
You're right that technically you would probably be able to run an extension cord for charging. I'm suggesting that this is a pain in the ass solution. Your landlord is going to tell you that you're not allowed to do that. The spots within reach of your house won't always be open.
Within the next 10 years, hopefully more charging infrastructure will be built. Currently, its not available.
If I wanted inexpensive transportation that's a pain in the ass, I'd just take the bus.
Level 1 charging works off of a regular power outlet
And if you only have street parking?
Is there a power outlet in the street? If not, it would be hard to use level 1 charging and wouldn’t really be relevant to bring up, would it?
Let me summarize the stream of these comments for you, as if it was a conversation between two people.
A)There isn't infrastructure for electric cars, particularly for those living in an apartment.
B)Level 1 charging is good enough for most people.
A)How is a person who lives in an apartment going to use a level 1 charger?
B)You just use a regular outlet.
A)But I live in an apartment, there is no regular outlet near my car.
B)(this is your comment BTW)Well then why did you bring up level 1 charging?
You're a moron.
It's kind of disturbing that they can't follow this.
Some apartments have outlets in them, this is a simple solution for those people. Not every solution will solve every problem for every person. Only a moron would expect that.
Haha. Alright, bud. All those people with the simple solution of parking in their living room will be so pleased.
Yeah no one parks in a covered garage or in a parking structure, so it’d be impossible for those people, who live in apartments, to use this simple solution. And it would be impossible to ever get electricity to street parking. You’d have to put it on the sidewalk or something. Oh, I mean, in your living room, because I’m the moron here. Thanks for the great discussion, genius.
I'm loving your solutions. Do you know what they call covered garages and parking structures with outlets and even your big brain idea of sidewalks with electrical outlets in them? They call those things INFRASTRUCTURE.
You should be loving the fact that this simple solution exists instead of being a random asshole cynic about it, yeah. The infrastructure is in place already for a lot of people to use this as a solution.
My dude, the comment at the top of this thread is stating that there isn't enough infrastructure to support most people buying electric cars. Sure, there's some infrastructure for some people to be able to charge their cars but its a significant barrier for many and an impediment to widespread adoption, causing a decrease in demand. You know, relevant information regarding the original post.
"But some people can charge their cars" is irrelevant when so many can't, because of infrastructure.
This word has lost all meaning for me. Infrastructure infrastructure
TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
Electric bikes suck in the Wisconsin winter
I hear that biking in the snow isn't actually bad. This is hearsay because it doesn't snow much where I am.
You wear your winter coat and snow pants, and get studded tires.
You don't have to worry about getting stuck going up an icy hill (because if its too icy to drive up, you can walk up it), granted not likely to be a problem in Wisconsin.
You don't have to worry about getting stuck due to low clearance (like the snow between the ruts that hatchbacks and minivans get stuck on) because you can just pick up your bike.
Also if a pedestrian slips while crossing the road, you probably won't kill them if you can't stop in time.
I guess the wind could be intense. What's your experience been?
Consider doing any of this in -20F even without the wind chill. Now consider the battery on that bike in those temps.
I've had it be so cold outside that the door lock latch on my entryway door for my garage was growing ice crystals. This isn't a door that's on the outside. This is the door on the entry from the garage to the house.
Now imagine trying to bike anywhere with that and what is essentially a salt/beet sugar slurry in the roads with no one giving you right of way it even being able to see in front of them because they're either drunk, on the phone, only cleared a 3" hole in their windshield or "you just came out of nowhere" ;)
But hey, the summers here are kickass
Hey thanks for more context I appreciate it.
-20F (-30C) is quite cold. How often is it that cold during commuting hours? It's hard to read too much into anecdotes re house latches freezing because there are so many peculiarities of individual houses. Range will definitely be reduced though.
I could see the ice melt slurry being messy and gumming up the bike's mechanics for sure. Not something I have experience with.
Yeah separate infrastructure makes biking a lot safer and so more attractive.
I think a lot of it is wind chills, especially where I am since Madison, WI sits between two lakes.
It might be better on a regular fat tire bike and not EV here, though in the last few years EV has become insanely popular around here.
You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there's a strong chance you can't safely unfortunately
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it's below freezing? Because that's a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that's not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
Oh I don't doubt there is a lot of dirty pool involved. Tesla's hands are nowhere near clean either. But it doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, shit's not anywhere near ready.
This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
This isn't an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you're in an appartment with dedicated parking, it's not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren't demanding it the building isn't going to supply it.
If you're stuck with street parking, you're right, your use case isn't best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn't a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn't seem like justification to stop rollout.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It's an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They're much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
Ty for education
I'd be curious to see real stats about how many folks in the US have a car and any practical access to a charger, even if somehow we convinced landlords everywhere to install chargers or the govt footed that bill entirely. I suspect it isn't the minority you think given the current housing situation in the country.
Even so, we seem agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement would be needed to make this at all practical. It looks a lot like pie in the sky to me.
Of course the elephant in the room is that the battery technology is the more overarching issue. I don't need a gas station in my parking lot because it takes me about 3 minutes to fill the car with gas. If it took 3 minutes to charge an electric car, they would be closer to parity. Currently they are far, far away.
Is it possible to get around some of that issue by changing tactics / planning ahead for longer trips and trying to secure a full charge by then? Possibly, but not practically. I'd also argue that technologies that ask people to change established behavior without benefit tend to fail (and there is no direct benefit to the consumer with an electric car).
I'm not sure I agree there is a massive infrastructure need. The average American could keep their EV charged today with a standard 120v outlet.
I don't have numbers for how any car owners park their car overnight somewhere that has access to a 120v plug, but it would surprise me if it was less than 50%.
Batteries are fine today and I lay getting better, fast charging is nice to have, but definitely not needed.
65.8% of Americans own their house. EV sales rates aren't anywhere near that. Lack of being able to charge at home is not the primary issue.
While your larger point is valid, it's missing some important context. I haven't seen the data, but I suspect that it says 65% own (vs renting) their primary residence, not that 65% own a single family house suitable for home charging. This figure would include houses with street parking only, off-street parking unsuitable for charging (e.g. carport, or a detached garage without electricity), and critically, condos. Condos often have the exact same restrictions as apartments, even if you own the living space. In the opposite direction, it doesn't count the rented homes where you could charge.
Now, all of that being said, you are correct that it's not the only (or perhaps even the biggest) obstacle to moving entirely to EVs. Countless gas vehicles are sold daily to people that could absolutely charge at home. But it does freeze out a large market segment, whom I suspect are more interested in EVs in the first place.
I'd be curious to see how many apartment dwellers are buying brand new vehicles as well. I suspect it's at a rate lower than home owners.
You don't need to have chargers on site. You just need charging locations that are fast enough. Teslas already charge from empty to almost full in about 15 mins.
It's 0 to 200 miles in 15 minutes in ideal conditions. Really good, but no reason to set unreasonable expectations.
In my experience, it's closer to 45 minutes to go from 15-20% to 90% in my Model 3. The supercharger's fastest charge is when the battery is less than half full. After that, it slows down to protect the life of the battery pack. If all you need is enough charge to get home to your own charger, it's entirely possible that you can be in and out in 10-15 minutes.
The infrastructure isn't there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they're really expensive is actually secondary considering they're just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
I think this is ignoring the fact that the average americans daily milage is so little (around 30 miles)that an electric car can be topped up off a Level 1 charger. Even more if you can get a level 2 charger.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there's no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It's sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can't afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
an extension cord.
This is just not a practical day-to-day solution. Most people don't have a parking spot right outside their window that they can reliably use for charging. There is often a sidewalk that the cord would have to cross, creating the opportunity for someone to trip and sue you. There is often landscaping between buildings and parking, creating the opportunity for the landscapers to accidentally run over your cord with their lawnmower. Some asshole is going to walk by and unplug your car and then you may be late to work.
Sure, you could it, but it's not a practical solution.
I mean, sure, when you dont want to do it, its easy to really cook up a convuluted scenario to justify not doing it.
I'm going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
I'm going to borrow a picture that somebody else posted. https://www.rent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/apartment_building.jpg
Do you think its practical for extension cords to run from that building to most of the parking spots? It would be a spiderweb of a tangled mess.
Oh god, the horror of 6 cords. You're right, the world cant support such madness.
if you don't like EVs, thats fine. Don't gotta keep playing this game of "UNLESS ITS 1000% PERFECT, WE CANT HAVE IT".
I do like EV's! I'm looking forward to the day when its practical for me to have one. I want less vehicle maintenance and I hope that the cost to charge it is less than it would cost to put gasoline in an equivalent ice vehicle.
You're right that technically you would probably be able to run an extension cord for charging. I'm suggesting that this is a pain in the ass solution. Your landlord is going to tell you that you're not allowed to do that. The spots within reach of your house won't always be open.
Within the next 10 years, hopefully more charging infrastructure will be built. Currently, its not available.
If I wanted inexpensive transportation that's a pain in the ass, I'd just take the bus.
Level 1 charging works off of a regular power outlet
And if you only have street parking?
Is there a power outlet in the street? If not, it would be hard to use level 1 charging and wouldn’t really be relevant to bring up, would it?
Let me summarize the stream of these comments for you, as if it was a conversation between two people.
A)There isn't infrastructure for electric cars, particularly for those living in an apartment.
B)Level 1 charging is good enough for most people.
A)How is a person who lives in an apartment going to use a level 1 charger?
B)You just use a regular outlet.
A)But I live in an apartment, there is no regular outlet near my car.
B)(this is your comment BTW)Well then why did you bring up level 1 charging?
You're a moron.
It's kind of disturbing that they can't follow this.
Some apartments have outlets in them, this is a simple solution for those people. Not every solution will solve every problem for every person. Only a moron would expect that.
Haha. Alright, bud. All those people with the simple solution of parking in their living room will be so pleased.
Yeah no one parks in a covered garage or in a parking structure, so it’d be impossible for those people, who live in apartments, to use this simple solution. And it would be impossible to ever get electricity to street parking. You’d have to put it on the sidewalk or something. Oh, I mean, in your living room, because I’m the moron here. Thanks for the great discussion, genius.
I'm loving your solutions. Do you know what they call covered garages and parking structures with outlets and even your big brain idea of sidewalks with electrical outlets in them? They call those things INFRASTRUCTURE.
You should be loving the fact that this simple solution exists instead of being a random asshole cynic about it, yeah. The infrastructure is in place already for a lot of people to use this as a solution.
My dude, the comment at the top of this thread is stating that there isn't enough infrastructure to support most people buying electric cars. Sure, there's some infrastructure for some people to be able to charge their cars but its a significant barrier for many and an impediment to widespread adoption, causing a decrease in demand. You know, relevant information regarding the original post.
"But some people can charge their cars" is irrelevant when so many can't, because of infrastructure.
This word has lost all meaning for me. Infrastructure infrastructure
Except ice cars already solved the problem, you dingus.
Oh yeah, problem free ICE cars. Way to track the conversation.
Do they make wireless extension cords?
TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
Electric bikes suck in the Wisconsin winter
I hear that biking in the snow isn't actually bad. This is hearsay because it doesn't snow much where I am.
You wear your winter coat and snow pants, and get studded tires.
You don't have to worry about getting stuck going up an icy hill (because if its too icy to drive up, you can walk up it), granted not likely to be a problem in Wisconsin.
You don't have to worry about getting stuck due to low clearance (like the snow between the ruts that hatchbacks and minivans get stuck on) because you can just pick up your bike.
Also if a pedestrian slips while crossing the road, you probably won't kill them if you can't stop in time.
I guess the wind could be intense. What's your experience been?
Consider doing any of this in -20F even without the wind chill. Now consider the battery on that bike in those temps.
I've had it be so cold outside that the door lock latch on my entryway door for my garage was growing ice crystals. This isn't a door that's on the outside. This is the door on the entry from the garage to the house.
Now imagine trying to bike anywhere with that and what is essentially a salt/beet sugar slurry in the roads with no one giving you right of way it even being able to see in front of them because they're either drunk, on the phone, only cleared a 3" hole in their windshield or "you just came out of nowhere" ;)
But hey, the summers here are kickass
Hey thanks for more context I appreciate it.
-20F (-30C) is quite cold. How often is it that cold during commuting hours? It's hard to read too much into anecdotes re house latches freezing because there are so many peculiarities of individual houses. Range will definitely be reduced though.
I could see the ice melt slurry being messy and gumming up the bike's mechanics for sure. Not something I have experience with.
Yeah separate infrastructure makes biking a lot safer and so more attractive.
It's actually not as bad on average as I conveyed
https://weatherspark.com/countries/US/WI
I think a lot of it is wind chills, especially where I am since Madison, WI sits between two lakes.
It might be better on a regular fat tire bike and not EV here, though in the last few years EV has become insanely popular around here.
You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there's a strong chance you can't safely unfortunately
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it's below freezing? Because that's a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that's not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
I replaced 90% of my driving with an electric golf cart
And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
Oh I don't doubt there is a lot of dirty pool involved. Tesla's hands are nowhere near clean either. But it doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, shit's not anywhere near ready.
This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
This isn't an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you're in an appartment with dedicated parking, it's not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren't demanding it the building isn't going to supply it.
If you're stuck with street parking, you're right, your use case isn't best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn't a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn't seem like justification to stop rollout.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It's an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They're much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
Ty for education
I'd be curious to see real stats about how many folks in the US have a car and any practical access to a charger, even if somehow we convinced landlords everywhere to install chargers or the govt footed that bill entirely. I suspect it isn't the minority you think given the current housing situation in the country.
Even so, we seem agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement would be needed to make this at all practical. It looks a lot like pie in the sky to me.
Of course the elephant in the room is that the battery technology is the more overarching issue. I don't need a gas station in my parking lot because it takes me about 3 minutes to fill the car with gas. If it took 3 minutes to charge an electric car, they would be closer to parity. Currently they are far, far away.
Is it possible to get around some of that issue by changing tactics / planning ahead for longer trips and trying to secure a full charge by then? Possibly, but not practically. I'd also argue that technologies that ask people to change established behavior without benefit tend to fail (and there is no direct benefit to the consumer with an electric car).
I'm not sure I agree there is a massive infrastructure need. The average American could keep their EV charged today with a standard 120v outlet.
I don't have numbers for how any car owners park their car overnight somewhere that has access to a 120v plug, but it would surprise me if it was less than 50%.
Batteries are fine today and I lay getting better, fast charging is nice to have, but definitely not needed.
65.8% of Americans own their house. EV sales rates aren't anywhere near that. Lack of being able to charge at home is not the primary issue.
While your larger point is valid, it's missing some important context. I haven't seen the data, but I suspect that it says 65% own (vs renting) their primary residence, not that 65% own a single family house suitable for home charging. This figure would include houses with street parking only, off-street parking unsuitable for charging (e.g. carport, or a detached garage without electricity), and critically, condos. Condos often have the exact same restrictions as apartments, even if you own the living space. In the opposite direction, it doesn't count the rented homes where you could charge.
Now, all of that being said, you are correct that it's not the only (or perhaps even the biggest) obstacle to moving entirely to EVs. Countless gas vehicles are sold daily to people that could absolutely charge at home. But it does freeze out a large market segment, whom I suspect are more interested in EVs in the first place.
I'd be curious to see how many apartment dwellers are buying brand new vehicles as well. I suspect it's at a rate lower than home owners.
You don't need to have chargers on site. You just need charging locations that are fast enough. Teslas already charge from empty to almost full in about 15 mins.
It's 0 to 200 miles in 15 minutes in ideal conditions. Really good, but no reason to set unreasonable expectations.
In my experience, it's closer to 45 minutes to go from 15-20% to 90% in my Model 3. The supercharger's fastest charge is when the battery is less than half full. After that, it slows down to protect the life of the battery pack. If all you need is enough charge to get home to your own charger, it's entirely possible that you can be in and out in 10-15 minutes.