Just bought an EV from a local dealer. Went in on Saturday because they had a 2 month used listing on their website for about 10k under MSRP. They told me, oh no that sold, but please check out the new cars. I entertained them and told them they'd need to bring down the price 10k to get me to sign because it's simply out of my price range. They also mentioned these things (ioniq 6) are selling extremely quickly and they only have a few on the lot.
They insisted and played games for a week, with offers OVER msrp, so I let them waste their time. They pushed me to come in, so as I was about to sign, I told them, actually, no. I need an offer 10k under MSRP or I'm leaving. At this point that was a 15k cut. They've now wasted a week of negotiation and suddenly found the used one I originally requested, but it was at their off-site lot.
We drove over there, and it was a large 5 story parking deckcompletely filled to the top. They even had cars parked in front of cars. They tried one last game and made me wait for 3 hours to get it out.
All that is to say, let the fuckers bleed. If they can't afford Christmas, maybe they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means. If they can't afford new years, it's time to make a new resolution and if they can't afford spring break, it's time to find a new job.
That's straight up bait-and-switch! Good on you to hold them to the original advertisement.
they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means.
Eventually, they'll move inventory to other dealerships (and the scrapheap), fire-sale the rest, cover their losses, and make room for new models. Dealers are amazing at colossal inventory stunts like this.
Dealers will cry about their inventory while refusing to budge on various “market adjustments”.
Boo hoo. Be competitive and watch the inventory flow.
I've been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven't budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I'm interested in range, so I'm wanting a Limited RWD but they aren't being stocked.
This article screams "I'm not doing my job and it's all your fault!"
There's a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There's a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn't have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
Some of us are still miffed about the 2008 bailouts, which ran entirely counter to the market forces rhetoric. Then the police turned off all the cameras and ran OWS off with riot squads.
No resolution was offered. even Dodd-Frank was reversed by Trump.
So you can expect a lot of civil unrest. It's been due since the great depression, about a century ago.
The dealer near me has added an extra 5 grand for market adjustment too.
Yeah, dealers around here have a huge markup over MSRP, “because there’s so much demand.”
Okay, I can wait.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
Yep sounds similar to what's happening here. Since the car was first released you could spec one out with Limited RWD on Hyundai's site but none existed in the entire country up until the last few months when they began trickling out. The website tells you that you can't actually order or build the car you want and instead must visit a dealer and choose something among their inventory. I'm sorry but I'm not going to compromise on a major purchase like this for a brand new vehicle. Dealerships can eat a dick.
While I still think that Hyundai engineering and design did some real magic with the IONIQ 5, I just can’t help but feel like the rest of the company is just screwing the pooch on this car. They’ve flooded the US market with models people there don’t seem to want to buy, and dealership lots often have a dozen or more waiting to be sold.
Meanwhile, here in Canada buying one is damn near impossible. That doesn’t seem to stop them from sending out mass marketing materials and ads trying to sell them (or the IONIQ 6), mind you — I just wish they had focussed first on ensuring their biggest boosters globally were getting the cars they want, as opposed to putting lots of cars nobody seems to want on US dealership lots.
(FWIW, my dealership told me they weren’t being allowed by Hyundai to order any 2023 IONIQ 5s. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence across all dealerships here in Canada, with just a few cars trickling in each month).
Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
Shit dealers (and especially the sales people) tend to not at all be trained on how to sell these cars, and can be openly hostile towards people interested in them. EVs don't make them as much money on service.
They can be trained all day every day, but if they know their profits are lower they'll do anything they can to avoid having to work with EVs.
Yup something I keep getting into arguments about at work. Sales makes a mistake on their order. And I somehow as the tech end up sorting it. And that sales person keeps their entire sales commission. I’ve been telling mgmt forever take away the commission if there are reasonable timeframe issues or incorrect selections made by the sales agent. That will make them make sure they perfect it to get their pay.
Edit: I’d like to note I’m not even asking for the commission idc I just want sales to do shit properly. Lol
Took us forever and is still contested now and again, but we managed to force the sales process yo include product managers or owners. Without an estimate from them, which is created in coordination with the engineers and developers, no offer is being made anymore. Certain sales people are butthurt, because the estimated costs are often too high for our "price sensitive clients" as in: they don't know how to sell our products on added value rather than on lower cost.
New car sales people do not give a single fuck about whether the car comes back for service. They get paid for selling cars, full stop. It's possible that management is making ICE car sales commissions higher than EV; that would create an incentive to push ICE.
Commissions on EV sales for legacy automakers are dismal. None of the legacy automakers are making EVs at scale so they are losing 10s of thousands of dollars per EV they sell. Sales personnel aren’t moving them because they have no incentive to do so. Then these companies complain about how there is no demand while the EV sector is growing exponentially.
Tesla got to scale while legacy automakers were all laughing at them and now they have to compete by gaslighting the marketplace about how there is no demand.
I’ve been in an EV since 2020 and am never going back. When people start to wake up to how convenient and comfortable EVs are and stop buying into all of the negative media, it’s only going to snowball from there.
They'll also fail to mention that it's the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they're definitely moving.
I don't know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
Straight up don’t give a single fuck what car dealers want. If they could all go out of business I’d be a happier person
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won't someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
I have hated every single car dealer I have dealt with, even my high school friend, but somehow my Nissan dealer was such a nice guy. He never found anything extra and always gave the straight forward solution, I only worked with him maybe 4 times for the 5 years I owned the car, but my bill was always <$100.
With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
Car Dealers: But what about my cut for bringing absolutely nothing to the table except being a con-man??
EVs require much less maintenance...dealers make much of their money from... maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can't afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can't just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can't just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It's all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
The J1772 protocol is very basic and does not communicate any car identifier back to the charge unit, so it wouldn't know what it's plugged into (other than "something")
And you just....trust other tenants to not just walk off with it?
I'm not worried about that, but I've seen some more cautious people get the cable underneath one of their wheels so that you'd have to move the car to take it. I'm quite sure you could also find another way of attaching or securing it to your car to make it fairly difficult to walk away with. The chargers also aren't really worth much, so it seems unlikely that even someone desperate for cash would put much effort into it.
Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It's all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
Also maybe don't make me buy a car through a dealership. Why can't I just order and car and it gets delivered to my house instead of making me pick it up from a dealer that gets to charge whatever they want for being a middle man on top of the cars already being too expensive.
Side note and probably hot take but I think if manufacturers were serious they would be rushing to phase out most of their combustion vehicles. If people want a new car it's going to be electric and if they don't want EV then they can find a nice used car and pay a premium for gas.
Laws have to change for direct sales of cars, mostly at the state level. Dealership owners also happen to be big donors to state elected officials.
I would like an electric car next, but I live in an apartment where I couldn't charge it.
Talk to your landlord about adding the infrastructure. It's trivial for them to add 50 AMP rv-style outlets to one side of the lot, and you can then plug in your own mobile charger.
landlords of apartment buildings don't like doing things like this or any other type of thing
Huh? There are a ton of small EVs that are much cheaper than that. The Nissan Leaf, for example.
Nissan leaf, Chevy bolt (which won't be sold next year) and...??? Everything else is at least 35k starting.
The Bolt has an odd marketing approach behind it. While it may be true that the Bolt will technically be discontinued, there will be its direct successor (built on the Ultium platform)
Also, as a practical matter, you can cut $7500 off the price of any new EV in the US because of the tax incentive.
There is a very real reason why certain classes of cars are EV and not others- you have to be able to charge at home/work to have a good experience. That normally means having a garage, often in a single family house. Apartment dwellers need not apply. Unfortunately, these are also the ones that buy compact cars, meaning there isn't much of a market. The suburbanites that are eligible to charge at home mostly buy SUVs and more expensive sedans.
As I understand it, the $7.5k isn't any EV, but EVs that were assembled/built primarily in the US. Many weren't compliant with that legislation. Not out of spite or anything, but because manufacturing wasn't quite ready to comply. That led to a number of vehicles sitting ineligible for the 7.5k break. As well as consumer confusion over which ones could be discounted. Overall, a transitional growing pain for a crappy industry that relies on monthly sales.
You are correct, and the exact definition/requirement has changed a few times. But many (most?) EVs for sale in the US are eligible. The vehicles themselves are assembled in the US, the big sticking point was the battery. It's something that gets buried in the details rather than advertised at the top. I can confirm the Chevy Bolt is advertised at ~$35k, but in the details you can see that it's eligible for the rebate, effectively bringing it down to ~$27.5k.
A detail to confirm when shopping, but one that is common.
A lot of trucks and SUVs these days are so big they don't even fit in garages.
Renault Zoe is an other. Was 30k like 5-6 years ago
Cars you won't see on the US market of course.
I got ahold of a British car magazine about 20 years ago and was really sad to see all of the awesome small cars and trucks we don't get because Americans are dumb.
Nissan Leaf is 41k MSRP in Canada, I've never paid over 14k for a vehicle. Willing to go in to 20s for an EV because of the gas savings though.
I had saved for an EV for my last vehicle purchase but then the pandemic hit and I started working from home, was driving very little, and I instead used that money to improve the efficiency of my home and upgrade the furnace to heat pump, replace some windows, etc. The amount of ghg's offset just from not using propane to heat my home vastly outweighs the amount I'd offset with an electric vehicle. I think people need to think about what makes sense for them, an EV is a luxury purchase, but if you're lucky enough to own a home then there may be better uses for that money.
So instead of a nice 50k EV I bought a Fit off someone for 8k, then I bought a $900 shitbox Fit for parts. Costs $70/mo in insurance and I put about the same in gas per month. I will likely improve my home's efficiency further if driving habits remain infrequent rather than buy a product like a car.
I'm holding out for a proper hot hatch. Something like a VW Golf or Mazda3. Leaf is a bit too small.
The i3s is a fun as hell hot hatch. I absolutely adore mine, and can't imagine ever selling it. It's much larger on the inside than you'd think, and I move a ton of shit with it regularly.
Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn't so fucking high, they'd be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
Seems telling that they stated they're having 100-200% employee turnover. Those are insane numbers.
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
My ideal electric car is basically an 85 GTI with an electric motor, but they’re all SUVs
Yeah, I'm disappointed that the evs that are actually so simple are micro cars with an in-town-only top speed and they're only available in Europe.
Closest thing in the US is a Nissan Leaf with a battery upgrade.
And let me rent an extra battery pack for long trips. I only need 40 miles day-to-day, but I gotta go 300 for Christmas.
PHEV is the answer! Give us options, doesn't have to be one of the other; Chevy Volt had it for a bit, but it must not have been profitable because now I can't find a PHEV that gets more than 30 miles on a full charge!
I don't want to buy the oversized battery, and I don't really want to buy the on-board generator/charger of PHEV. I only want to own as much vehicle, and incur the manufacturing carbon debt, to meet 95-98% of my needs. Make it easy to rent, borrow, or share the extra capacity for the last 2%, and the world will be a lot less wasteful. I can see renting a trailer with enough generator to replace a series hybrid. I can see renting surplus battery. And those rental services can be a revenue stream to replace dealerships lost service centers.
Clearly, though, I'm a minority of consumers, and no manufacturer actually wants to cater to me and my twelve friends.
Your use case is very reasonable, and a lot of people want it. But it's a big challenge from a technical/engineering standpoint. You know how a replacement battery pack for an EV costs like $8k and has a range of 300 miles? Your rental battery would cost at least that much, plus whatever costs are involved to make it portable, and integrate it's usage into your existing EV. Then the rental places would need to have massive charging capabilities for when people stop in to swap their empty rental battery for a full one, since it still only has a range of 300 miles (4-5 hours of freeway driving)
I actually think there will be improvements on the fast charging front. You can already see this idea in other places. Many heavy duty trucks have 2 fuel tanks. You can fill them with 2 standard pumps running simultaneously, effectively giving you double the refueling speed. Some phones have dual batteries for the same reason.
You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn't include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that's the only thing I've done to the car in 8 years.
How about people pay attention to local elections? The reason we are not seeing funding for EV infrastructure is most small towns can be bought by the local dealership family who would rather see continued profits from ICE vehicle maintenance and not investments into EV infrastructure, then it conviently sides with this bullshit narrative of nothing can be sold and we have no infrastructure so give up on EVs.
Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that's a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren't even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
set maximum profits aside
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
He'd be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can't start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its "partners."
Henry Ford? I think he'd be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
Rolling in his grave in excitement you mean?
Tangentially related, there's a supermarket chain in my country that requires you to hand over your personal details to even apply for a job. The rough wording is something like: 'all your personal information in perpitutity but only internally and with people we do business with.' Except since selling my personal info would be a business transaction that clause includes potentially every human being on the planet.
I'm putting money on Toyota and their Panasonic batteries to build something like a Corolla EV for $25k USD 400 mile range.
Infrastructure is going to have to keep up too. Unless you are in a progressive/new/expensive apartment/neighborhood has reliable access to chargers that's going to have to change before you can start selling EVs to lower and lower middle class. Right now they only make sense of you have a garage to park in.
Out of curiosity, how much would it cost for you to consider an EV affordable for the everyday person?
The Chevy Bolt has been around for years and can be purchased new for less than $30k. Same with the Nissan Leaf. That's a pretty attainable number for a lot of working adults, and that's assuming you buy brand new. Multiple 2020 Bolts are available near me for around $20k. I'm seeing Bolts that might be another year or two older as low as $15k
I'd argue that price isn't the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
I'd argue that price isn’t the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
Not him and it may not be the only thing, but it's a main thing.
30k is a lot for a new car, and most EVs I've seen start at 30k.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k. Financially savvy people know that the savings in gas will take years to recoup depending upon how often you drive the car.
Then there's depreciation because a used EV with limited range is practically worthless, replacing a battery in one can run up to 15k, and Chevys in general don't hold their value.
Now is price the only thing? No. I personally also am a little hesitant to buy one and the hidden costs of having to upgrade my electrical in the garage in order to effectively charge it, and I suspect others have similar concerns.
All that said my next vehicle will likely be an EV, and I really hope Honda gets its act together because if not I'll end up having to go with someone else.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k.
Ehhhh not anymore.. this could just vary by location, but these days it's not easy to find a used car like you describe for under 10k, unless it's 15+ years old with 150k+ miles on it, then maybe you'll find something in the $8-10k range. But that's a roll of the dice. A car like that might only last you a year, if that.
The used car market in the US is completely fucked since COVID. And knowing how capitalism works, I imagine this is the "new normal" when it comes to used cars, and we all better start getting used to it.
Bullshit. These dealers don't want to sell EVs because they can't bait you into a sales pitch 4 times a year with free oil changes.
Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out
When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable "security" etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn't that I didn't want one, it's that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn't budge. Fuck off.
The infrastructure isn't there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they're really expensive is actually secondary considering they're just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there's no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It's sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can't afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there's a strong chance you can't safely unfortunately
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it's below freezing? Because that's a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that's not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
This isn't an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you're in an appartment with dedicated parking, it's not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren't demanding it the building isn't going to supply it.
If you're stuck with street parking, you're right, your use case isn't best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn't a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn't seem like justification to stop rollout.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It's an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They're much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
I loved my Volt... Charged overnight in a normal 110 outlet got me the 43 miles to work and back (after about year 5, not quite the whole way) but I could still decide to go on a 600 mile road trip spur of the moment. Had to give up the 2014 in 2023 when a full charge wouldn't go 20 miles. ☹️
There is no PHEV comparable now, though! Made the switch back to full ICE and I hate it.
I have a 2017 bolt EV - bought used, not one that is advertised as having great mileage even in 2017. I routinely take it 400-500mi plus drives with one or maybe two charge stops for vacation and family trips. Middle of ME to the southern tip of NJ. My home is somewhere in the middle.
Charged off my 110 outlet since I got to car (about 4 years) up to last month Oct 2023 when I got a 220v outlet installed as part of another project. One charge was enough for the week. Occasionally I'd plug in at work or at a friends. Worst case actually pay $5-9 for a DC quick charge if I know I'm doing a long drive. All that is way easier if you just have a place to plug in consistently at home.
I don't get the negativity most people have twords EVs. Everyone is astounded when I say I just plug it into the wall and have to plan longer trips slightly more, like that's not news anymore.
And there's a bunch more DC chargers than when I first started driving an EV - so it's wayyy easier for new folks to adopt.
It sounds like you could've taken that car back for a warranty claim.... depending on your state it should be able to do about 30 miles after either 8 or 15 years, and your was doing less than 20 at 9 years... I assume you were in an eight year state?
Having said that, draining the battery fully every day will absolutely kill it. It's not good for the battery to be empty that often... an EV with a 300 mile range and the same driving pattern could probably go well over a million miles on the original battery. That's far longer than the typical life of a modern ICE engine (unless its an engine specifically intended for commercial fleets - those last longer).
Of course, a battery that can do 300 miles is very expensive.
This is the real reason I think high mileage batteries are important... I think most people don't need 300 miles, but a battery that can do that can also be charged to 60% or 80% and charged before going below 20%, which should dramatically improve its life (saving the full capacity for the once in a while longer trips)
I want and have wanted an EV since 2013.....can't afford one. So to be clear, it's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of making an affordable one.
That and long distance travel are my concerns. Will I have to keep stopping for long charging sessions. Will there even be a charger on the route at all.
A third concern is how safe the lithium batteries are for charging, it would have to be inside my garage that is on the 1st floor. I guess it's probably not too much of a concern but I worry about even leaving small lithium batteries charging unattended.
You could drive from New York to la in a model three with about twelve 30 minute stops. Given that it's a multi day drive, you can even fold a charge or two into overnight parking. While that is more than a gas car, it's not horrible.
New York to Miami is about six stops. I would have to stop around the same amount of times in my relatively fuel efficient ice (30 mpg), though (some) of the stops would be significantly shorter.
I would like to buy an electric car but I will not because;
I don't have a garage.
I live in a very wintery climate and don't trust the battery to take it/don't want to heat a battery
The closest chargers are at least 50 km away in other towns
My house has 60 amp service (upgrading that is on the todo list, but it's a long list)
I don't trust the battery to last longer than the life of the lease
Most of those fears aren't completely valid anymore.
You can park it outside.
winter gets you less mileage but not the end of the world, some of the fastest growing EV markets are cold countries.
You might be surprised, a lot of grocery stores and even workplaces have some basic charging capabilities. Plus you can charge at home.
If you have an electric dryer you can charge your car overnight, just don't do both together.
Batteries will outlast any lease, if you're looking to get 10-15 years out of a car that would be understandable, but if you're leasing it won't be a problem.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 10+ years or more out of a car without shelling out a large sum of money for a battery swap. This is probably my only concern. Repairability and the cost of those repairs.
If you have street parking in a urban area there's a good chance you can't get a outlet connected to your car without running a extension cord from your window, across a sidewalk, and then to the port.
I live in a small town in a rural area. There is one charger in my town, but it's at the county building and is for county employees. There are chargers at grocery stores, but those are 50kms away.
My house still has a fuse box, I don't have any available holes. The whole system needs changed and I will, but that's $10k and that's not a very exciting purchase.
I guess I didn't mean lease, I meant financing. I definitely hope to have a vehicle at least 7 years. I just upgraded my paid off corolla because we needed all wheel drive vehicle for our winters here. Otherwise I'd have kept it till it died in 20 years (corolla joke). The electric car would have to be comparable to that and I'm not sold that they will be. We bought one of the few cars available to us without a multi month wait.
I'm sure many of my fears are unjustified, but I require further evidence. I'm not an early adopter type.
You really only have 1 problem (aside from perceptions), but it's a real one. You need to be able to charge at home, and it sounds like you probably can't do that. You'd be stuck on trickle charging (3 miles of range per hour on the charger), and even that's questionable.
The car will keep the battery warm whenever it's plugged in. If you take care of the battery (rarely let it go all the to 0% or 100%), it will easily last over 100k miles, and probably to 200k. When it does start to wear out, it's not a hard cutoff- just like your phone, you'll notice the capacity (range) starts to drop.
FWIW, there are very significant federal rebates/tax credits in the US for EVs. That specifically includes upgrading electrical service to support an EV charger. But given that you said kms, I have to assume you are in a different country. Many have their own incentives, but you'd have to check into those yourself.
I charge my car off of a regular outlet outside in a very cold climate, and charging like that will actually likely make the battery last quite a while. The only way to find out for sure is to wait, but it has been 4 years and the battery hasn't lost any capacity. My car also has a 320 km range, so even in your scenario, if you charged 50km away and came home, you'd still have 270km of range.
I think you may have given too much weight to FUD about EVs from companies that would like to see them fail. I've seen a lot of concerns posted online that just don't practically matter, once you actually try it. There's also some really nice minor things about owning an EV, like not having to breathe in toxic fumes when walking around the car. Especially nice if you have kids that are right at the level of the tailpipe.
It is also fine to wait a bit, of course. In my area chargers are springing up in lots of places, and I think we're not far off from a tipping point away from ICE cars, which will spread even to rural areas pretty quickly when gas stations start becoming unprofitable.
Good to hear. I fully expect our next car to be electric. Funny enough, the only gas station in my town just announced it was closing this year (the tanks are outdated and the company isn't replacing them). Perhaps I made the wrong decision buying another ICE vehicle. Won't be the first time I was wrong.
Good news! I've got information relevant to you. I grew up in a locale that would drop below 0F for most of the winter. It was NORMAL to get an oil heater and plug it into your 110v 15amp outlet outside.
Well with EV's you get that same cable, and plug it in and it accomplishes basically the same goal but for the battery instead of the oil.
Even better it trickles "fuel" into your "tank" over night.
Or if you splash out dolla bills, you can get a dryer plug installed (240v 50amp) which fully charges your EV in a couple hours and keeps it nice and warm all night.
Everything else is the same, you put snow tires on it, drive to the slopes, skii all day, drive home....one difference though, its heat is available within seconds unlike my old car which took 10+ minutes in subzero temps to heat up and blow warm air. Heck, my EV has heated wiper fluid. That's pretty cool.
oh... and here's some extra cool parts.... if you do the Airbnb thing somwhere, your "fuel" is included. Just plug it in to their 110v outside outlet. When driving back down the slopes, you know what it does? It CHARGES THE CAR! You get free "fuel", just for driving back down the hill.
In all seriousness, a couple road trips with mine, in both 100+F and below 32F, I found out that all of those things don't matter. Yes winter tires wreck the efficiency, yes cold wrecks the efficiency, but it's still well over 200+ miles. All the extra convenience is so nice, that you really don't want to go back.
One example, I drove the same route to the beach at different times, one in the winter, I got there with 31% battery remaining. The same trip in the summer I had 55% batter remaining. So, like 1/3rd a tank of gas left, or half a tank of gas. Both are FIIIIINE. Know what I didn't do? Go to the gas station. I just plugged it in to the slow ass 110 wall outlet since... I'm at the beach for the weekend, in an airbnb... I don't know how long it took, because it was charged when I was ready to leave. Honestly, how do people not see how convenient this is?
Battery life is pretty widely available for Tesla's at least since they've been around for over a decade now. And like any car, it depends on how the owner drove it and maintained it. Some last forever, some are trash within years.
It's not a oil heater, it's a block heater, it heats the prestone.
Block heaters are a thing for decades and no one worries about needing to keep the oil warm. Don't see how warming a battery is any different.
I don't use a block heater. I don't have a heated driveway. I don't have heaters on my eaves. I don't heat a bird bath. I don't have exterior flood lights. If I can help it I don't run heaters outside where I am not. I said in the OP I don't like the thought of throwing electricity into the wind.
Car dealers don't want to sell EVs, it's a lot more work for them
They can sell an ICE vehicle within an hour of a customer showing up on the lot.
EVs can take multiple days and sit downs to try and sell because people have questions since it's new and they want to understand the details before purchasing.
That means less commission, so salesmen try to avoid selling people EVs over ICE vehicles.
Also less money on repairs. ICE are in the dealership shop ten times as much.
Dealers actively steer customers away from EVs because they are low maintenance.
There's a huge wave of anti ev propaganda coming out. Beware.
You're not gonna sell shit with jacked up sky high prices, even more so in a time of high interest rates. We see your lots are full of unsold cars, both ICE and EV, so maybe it's time to bring prices back down to Earth.
We really ought to change the laws to allow for direct-to-consumer car sales. Dealerships are scummy motherfuckers who are perfectly happy to be a middleman and rip people off.
Dealers are waiting to see it the country becomes a full on fascist, road warrior, shit-hole country or continue on a path to a modern first world democracy.
Gotta push the EV infrastructure harder. No good pushing lots of EV cars when the infrastructure isn’t there to support them. Can’t charge at work. Can’t charge at your apartment complex. No charge at the shopping areas. Etc. Other than the high initial cost, I’d suggest that the inconvenience and irritation of trying to locate charging along with range limits is a major factor in people not wanting EV.
This is the #1 reason I won't be able to get an EV any time soon. We live in a townhouse, and while the HOA gracefully 'allows' us to install chargers (because its illegal for them not to allow it), the way the rules are set up it's practically impossible to actually install one.
For example, here's our bylaws regarding EV chargers:
All Charging stations require approval – The application should discuss where the charging station will be mounted, the type of post used to mount it, and, in the townhouses, the path that the charging station wiring will use to get to the common ground. The townhouse owner is also advised that the installation of a charging station on HOA common ground requires a legal agreement between the HOA and the homeowner regarding maintenance and liability of the charging station.
Chargers of 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2) are allowed. It should be noted that while it is possible to use a 240V extension and there are some 240V extensions sold as charging cables, at this time, the use of such extensions is illegal in Maryland and will not be approved in an application. All 240V outlet plugs must be directly wired to the electrical panels of the house.
Under no conditions is it acceptable for a charging line to be stretched across a community sidewalk. For a temporary installation of less than 6 months duration, residents may apply to have permission to place a tube under the sidewalk in order to run a 110V extension while their permanent charging station is installed.
All permanent electrical lines must be buried in conduit according to code and go under any sidewalks, ramps, or gutters. No 240V electrical wires are permitted to be installed under community sidewalks.
A charging station must be placed inside a single parking space. It cannot straddle the dividing line nor can it be centered in the parking spot as that would interfere with the numbering of the parking space.
For single family homes a charging station can be mounted directly to the house or garage or mounted on a post that allows easier access to the parking spaces. If post mounted, it should be mounted in the half of the driveway that is closest to the house.
There are a number of things in there that are contradictory. You can install a L2 charger, but if you're in a townhouse, you're not allowed to wire it up using 240V. You also can't place it on your house, because the cord wouldn't be able to reach and that's not allowed anyway, because it'd cross a sidewalk. Neat.
Exactly right. The next best step would be for businesses to install them for employees and customers, but that’s a big expense and maintenance problem.
I really don’t know what the answer is. I’m completely for EV, but the unpredictable ,or lack of availability, of charging is a big deal.
The Bolt? Sorry, they are getting rid of that for a few years. Hell, it took a lot for them to even agree to bring the damn thing back. They were going to kill it despite its popularity.
You can get a base Tesla model 3 for under 30k with the federal incentive right now. Go to the website if you don’t believe me.
People still don’t understand that EVs have a total cost of ownership that saves you 10-20k over the life of the vehicle compared to an ICE vehicle. Now the sticker prices are getting cheaper than ICE vehicles and people still can’t get past the expensive versions from a few years ago.
If you’re waiting for Ford to offer a sub 30k vehicle, you’re going to be waiting a while. They seem to be giving up on trying to get to scale on production and won’t bring costs down on the numbers they’re pumping.
I would have bought a plug in electric, but my apartment didn't like the idea of me throwing extension cords out my second story window.
No one expects they should be able to install a gas station in their backyard to buy an ICE vehicle. The issue is infrastructure.
Even with an outlet who wants to slow charge a plug-in EV? The infrastructure isn't there and the cars are too expensive.
Slow charge is probably fine for a lot of folks. If you have a 240 mile battery range, travel 30 miles in a day and charge 80 miles overnight, you are at full charge from 0 in about 5 days.
No plug at all though means you don't charge at all, and commercial fast charging isn't that much cheaper than gas.
They should make batteries that swap out completely so you can load a fully charged one in in a few seconds and let your old one charge while you're off driving somewhere else. Or you just exchange the battery permanently like with some propane tanks.
Car dealers are useless middlemen that should be put out of business.
I want an EV but the only affordable option is Chevy and somewhat the Nissan Leaf. Every other option is way to expensive. If my current car died, I guess I would buy one of them. But I'm going to drive it into ground or until sometime else affordable comes along.
I think driving your car to the ground is the most environment friendly approach anyway regardless of the type of car you'll buy next.
On the other hand, I'd assume if the old car is functional, they'd sell it to someone who would then "drive it to the ground" (or sells it to another). It's environmentally friendly as long as the car is used by someone
Yeah. It's not like the car just disappears if you get another one. I need EVs to enter the used car market so i can actually afford them.
Give me an EV without a massive center console that blinds me at night. Remove all the "smart" features like lane assist. Give me a fucking dumb EV
This drives me crazy. Take a solid platform like the FRS.. electrify it for something equiv to 300/300 and give it a 200 mile range. No fancy interior, lots of plastic, no lane assist etc. It would be fun and affordable. Same platform could be used for a more refined crossover.
I feel like Honda really should have done some type r civic thing but with electric.
I really do think this will happen in the near future. Right now, every company is targeting the high end segment and slowly making it's way down.
It may also have something to do with all the announcements about changing the charging port. I wouldn’t buy a car when I know they’re changing g that next year. I mean, it’s about time, but that’s going to deter buyers
I look forward to buying an EV with a usb-c charging port.
1: too expensive to buy new
2: if you live anywhere that's not a big city, or you have a garage, there is basically no electric chargers for you.
The city I live in (~30k people) has 6 chargers total. None of them are superchargers. Wait times are already a sticking point in the best case, nevermind what the wait times would be if everyone where I'm at had an electric car tomorrow. The whole downtown would maybe gridlock just because of people waiting.
For comparison, there are probably 2-300 gas pumps around the city. 5 gas stations within 5 minutes of where I am, all with at least 8 pumps, all well used. People are not going to get EV's unless there is an infrastructure that is equivalent to gas around where they live.
And that infrastructure is not gonna be fun to get going.
The average person living in the city can't really use them with street parking, can't always guarantee a spot after all, and installing a personal one for yourself all but requires a personal garage, which locks out the people who live in poorer housing.
Lots of people in my city and I suspect many others live in trailer parks with low/fixed incomes, having just a simple driveway. Where are they gonna get the thousand or two to install a Level 2 charging station? My mom and dad certainly don't have the money.
Expecting the EV companies to make the infrastructure with the money they get just from selling EV's is gonna turn into one gigantic chicken-and-egg problem. The government is going to have to do it, and anyone who's not living along an interstate can see just how much benefit they are personally getting from it so far.... (hint: none)
You don't need a level 2 charger at home. You don't need gas stations equivalents. EV companies won't make infrastructure, because we've already built tons of infrastructure for EVs and it's called the electric grid. Everywhere has electricity. I was recently in a very remote area for vacation in my EV, and just plugged my car into a regular outlet to charge it up. To get there, I stopped for lunch and plugged my car in at a supercharger while I ate.
Target is putting in superchargers at lots of their locations around me. Other places are or will follow suit. If you can't charge at home, you'll simply stop by the store/mall/whatever, do your normal shopping, and have your car charge in the meantime. Or you'll charge at work, or any number of other places.
EVs aren't hard, they just require a mindset shift. People worry about this and that, but it's because they haven't actually tried it and have given too much weight to FUD spread about EVs.
A second hand Renault Zoe can be had for about £5k. MG4 for about £25k if you insist on getting new. I appreciate these may not be options where you live but the prices are coming down if you're willing to look beyond the traditional brands.
What these articles fail to mention is that it's the "legacy" brands like Ford that are struggling. Brands like BYD and Tesla are doing just fine and are struggling to keep up with demand in some cases.
Also, you charge at home.
The infrastructure where you live doesn't matter. The infrastructure where you're going to or on the route might matter if it's far away enough.
I live in a town with a smaller population than yours. We have 2 chargers at 50kw, which is pretty slow by modern standards.
So far I've used it once when testing that the car was working okay when I first got it. That's it. Never used it since. Because I charge at home.
Nearest super charger is around 50 miles away. Which is fine. Because I'll always leave with 100% charge.
I've never waited for charging. Probably because I own a Tesla and have access to their super charging network which was about 50% the reason I got that over the Ioniq 5 or Nissan Aryia. I look forward to the competition getting better and my recommendation being beyond "get a Tesla if you're worried about charging".
And yes, I have done long trips (at least by UK standards) and I have needed to charge before I got home. But the car's range is bigger than my bladder's/stomach's range so frankly I would have stopped anyway and the car took care of adding charging stops for me.
I have seen people queuing at non Tesla chargers and can only assume it's a frustrating experience. In the UK new chargers are being opened at an impressive rate (up ~40% on last year, IIRC) so hopefully that issue won't be so bad in the future.
It's not there yet, but the problems are getting solved and the prices are coming down. If you can charge at home then it's probably a good option. If you can't, that's another matter.
In the same way you don't care about MTU settings to get the best out of your Internet these days, you won't care about the issues with charging and prices soon. It will suddenly get better and nobody will even notice or care anymore.
I don't think the vast emptiness that is the US translates well to the UK. By area, New Mexico is almost the exact same size as the british isles, and it's only the 5th largest state. I've done 400+ miles in a single day of driving many times. The furthest I've driven in a day was close to 800 miles.
Yeah, someone from the UK lecturing Americans on how EV infrastructure is just fine is rich. There are EVs capable of getting them pretty much anywhere in their country on a single charge. Meanwhile, I wouldn't be able to visit my parents two states away without needing to charge halfway through. And the options if you have a family are even fewer and more expensive. There are six of us in our household. Which EV should we drop 6 figures on to get us and our luggage 600 miles away for the holidays?
Sure, but we have chargers everywhere. There's a guy in this thread with 6 chargers in his whole US town of 30,000 people. We have 6 chargers on an office building of 30 people. Get your shitty infrastructure together, and all those distance issues disappear. Nobody is driving 600 miles without a break. What are you all doing, pissing in bottles?
In the meantime, how about rent a vehicle for that one instance a year where you want to travel more than to and from work. Or heaven forbid, public transportation.
"But what about that time four years ago where you had to take a fridge home?"
"Aw gee I'd better buy a Ford F150 monster truck. Thanks Motor industry!"
In fairness many people.in the UK have parents living two countries away in Spain. I doubt that is taken into account when buying a car, particularly an ev .
Most people would consider flying for such visits, and I thought that was standard in the US too. Don't most people take a domestic flight when you need to cross more then one state border?
Family of six is less of an issue in Europe that's definitely not normal and would greatly reduce your options when buying a vehicle, electric or not.
People in the US typically only take domestic flights between major cities and usually only if they are traveling a long distance (across multiple states).
One reason for this is because you usually have to rent a car when you reach your destination anyway. So if you fly two states away to visit family, land in the closest city to where they live, now you have to rent a car at the airport and drive a couple of hours to their house. You've now paid for a flight and a car rental and you probably could have gotten there cheaper and just as quickly, if not faster, if you drove.
You really can't expect equal infrastructure to gas when so many people can charge at home and that's enough for the vast majority of driving. DC fast charging is for road trips and people who can't charge at home for whatever reason (mainly apartments). Yes, I understand they exist.
That said, the home modifications needed are often overestimated. I got a 50 amp 240V outlet installed in my garage. One electrician quoted $1300, but GM has a promo for a free installation. That guy quoted $1800, but GM paid it in full. More importantly: my panel is on the other side of the house. They had to run about 50 feet of wiring through my laundry room and up to the front of my garage - hardly a typical scenario when so many people have the panel in or near their garage already. That was for a huge circuit that will basically last me forever. But honestly? So many people grossly overestimate their needs. Even a little 16A 240V outlet would be just fine for most people, most of the time, and that's really not much different than adding a normal outlet in terms of cost. Speaking of normal outlets, even that can get you a few dozen miles of charge overnight, every night, which is pretty close to what an average person drives over a year.
When I bought my Volt 10 years ago, I knew more about the car than any of the dealer sales people. I doubt the situation has changed much. That being said, I would hesitate to recommend an EV to a non technically inclined person, because the charging situation is still rough even in CA. Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn't work, or they are in inconvenient areas. Gas is still the idiot proof option. We will know we're really in the future when you can go to most grocery stores or strip mall and charge with tap to pay (no stupid app to pre-configure). There has to be 95% reliability. Right now I'd say about 1/5 of stations I visit have something wrong with them in terms of no internet connection for billing, slow charging, illegible UV-damaged screen, or just outright broken hardware. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-air
Standardization is the key.
Regulating that all petrol gas stations also have charging stations for electricity would be a step in the right direction. That way somebody will be on duty to deal with situations that you've mentioned above.
I believe in large the reason for all the malfunctions at charging stations is because they're unmanned.
Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn’t work, or they are in inconvenient areas.
ICE vehicles suffer from the same problems, we're just accustomed to them and understand how to work around the issues.
I wouldn't say gas stations have the same frequency of problems honestly. 19 times out of 20, my gas is dispensed without issue. And I'm able to buy it without joining a program or going out of my way. Electric charging is not yet that convenient, and it should be.
car dealers literally don't need to exist and make the buying experience worse for everyone
Translation: Car dealers don't make as much money from EV's.
Car sales is a racket anyway, the dealers make too much money, the car manufacturers make too much money, and with the prospect of a new technology that costs more they've realised that they can't charge as much more, meaning they profit less.
Price is not proportional to cost.
The biggest crime is the villainisation of haggling. Price must be negotiable for a system to remain fair.
Yeah, hate haggling. Never know if it is actually a good deal, and tracking prices and deals is so unreliable compared other goods with the way those have historic price tracking recorded on sites like camelcamelcamel or keepa. Keeps consumers in the dark with only a broad idea of what isn't a scam price and making the experience as exhausting as possible to extract money from them.
EV cars are better than ICE cars, but the biggest problems with cars are so much bigger than the type of engine they use. As grateful as I am for EV cars being a thing sometimes they just feel like a distraction from solving the actual fundamental issues around transportation.
I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I'd argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.
A couple of them. This is more fuel to the dealership dumpster fire.
I've totally got the money to buy a new car. My 2005 forester is getting long in the tooth and i'm ready to replace it.
I want a smallish car with the same basic features: AWD, 4door, boxy rear so I can toss a full size mtn bike in there, good in the snow, etc.
My distinct impression is that the manufacturers want to sell high end (all the options and $$) but don't give a shit about usability. Chevy volt comes close but can't take a bike.
I wouldn't exactly call any car that you can throw a full size mountain bike in the back a "small car." I could barely do that with my old Subaru outback.
At this point in time, you're going to be looking at a Kia Niro (sans awd), Subaru Solterra / Toyota Bz4x, plug-in hybrid Crosstrek, EV6, EV9, Ioniq 5, Volvo EX30, C40, XC40, Polestar 3, and Tesla model 3 and Y.
But really what you want to do is to put a hitch on the back with a hitch mounted bicycle rack. They cost about 4 to $500 for a full install and will let you carry a bike without needing a huge car.
Your other option of course is a pickup truck like a Rivian, Lightning or Cybertruck but those will set you back probably $75,000 to $100,000.
Yes the new Ford Maverick has a hybrid option and it's been selling very well.
So well in fact that if you want one you probably can't get one, unless you are willing to pay 20% over MSRP for a used one. And now for 2024, the hybrid drivetrain is no longer the standard and is instead a $2500 upgrade. I wanted one but honestly fuck Ford.
They refuse to learn about them and actively direct people to ICE vehicles. No shit they are having a 'hard time' selling them. They have tried less than nothing to sell them.
This year, 18% of all automobile sales worldwide were electric cars. In the US, that's about 7%.
"And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.
This seems not good. I might have been slightly more sympathetic to the dealers before reading this?
Lol yeah, I've worked in a dealership. I was fine with it till my foreman got fired because he took all the blame from customers instead of staff.
Anyways when they were interviewing his replacement I started looking for a new job. I got into it with him because he wouldn't even listen to anyone talk about pay raises.
High turnover in sales has been common for forever in some dealerships. Many salesmen work only commission so they hire more than needed, don't train them and let anyone who doesn't meet quota go. Meeting quota is impossible because there are more salesmen than needed, and you need years to build up a following of loyal customers (most customers are not loyal no matter what you do, but the few who are go to the few long timers) . Non loyal customers like to think they are buying from the new salesman so long timers have a set of business cards without a name on them to hand out.
The above is what I remember from an Edmund's article from around 2000 when they hired a new writer and the first story was to get a job selling cars to find out what it was really like. I doubt much has changed. (Not all car sales are that way, but many are, and that is reflected in turnover)
I agree with them but not for the reasons they would like, less pushing of EVs more pushing of good public transportation.
I'm not buying an EV not because of lack of infrastructure or lack of interest, but because the product sucks.
I'm not buying a gas car either for the same product sucking reason, and an active desire to never purchase a gas car again.
I just leased an Ioniq 6 from a Hyundai dealership end of October. The salesperson was great, but she didn’t know anything about EVs, especially their own. She even admitted it was the first one she’s sold.
I went back a week ago and found the same 5 Ioniq 6’s sitting there. I’m pretty sure they’ll stay there for quite a while.
She even admitted it was the first one she’s sold.
She hasn't even sold that one, since you leased it instead of buying it.
Fair enough, I went lease because everyone’s going NACS soon.
Wow angling to pass lawyers as the most reviled profession in the country huh?
car dealers bring as much value to society as landlords. it's a negative value.
Fellas, fellas, please. I assume you, I wouldn't buy the gas one either.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
After making record profits in the wake of the pandemic and the collapse of just-in-time inventory chains, they're now complaining that selling electric vehicles is too hard.
Almost 4,000 dealers from around the United States have sent an open letter to President Joe Biden calling for the government to slow down its plan to increase EV adoption between now and 2032.
More and more car buyers are opting to go fully electric each year, although even a record 2023 will fail to see EV uptake reach double-digit percentages.
Mindful of the fact that transportation accounts for the largest segment of US carbon emissions and that our car-centric society encourages driving, the US Department of Energy published a proposed rule in April that would alter the way the government calculates each automaker's corporate average fuel efficiency.
Over the summer, industry analysts at Cox Auto made plenty of headlines with data showing that new EV inventory was growing.
Helpfully, the dealers published a complete list of the 3,882 signatories, making it very easy for people to see which businesses are opposing action on climate change.
The original article contains 586 words, the summary contains 183 words. Saved 69%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
We bought an EV recently and the dealership told us the Market Adjustment was the easiest thing to negotiate away.
That's because it's a made up number that they add on instead of just pricing the vehicle accurately. So then they advertise it as $60K and then add the market adjustment of $40K.
If I was Attorney General I'd be shutting dealers down if the price before TTL was even $1 higher than the advertised price.
They need to boost the amount of parts produced in the US so they’ll qualify for the rebate.
"The hard times of the Middle Man". I can see the book now.
Sure they can. Just give the $7500 credit to an EV worth its price.
Hmm, then what's your purpose again?
I wonder if new vehicle sales are down overall. If I had to replace my car today, I'd be looking for something second hand.
Edit: According to Cox Automotive Inc., September sales were actually up 13% from last year. Huh.
September sales were actually up 13% from last year
Covid-19 shut down a lot of factories. Not just US car factories but also suppliers of small/cheap components (some of them worth less than one cent each) just couldn't be purchased in large volumes.
As far as I know the industry still hasn't fully recovered. 13% year over year growth isn't a 13% increase in demand, it's a 13% increase in the number of cars they're able to sell.
If they can't sell it, then they'll lower prices and people will be able to buy them.
I doubt the profits are so hard to come up with considering the wild CEO pay and record profits everyone's bragging about.
Yeah lol... Why curb supply to artificially keep prices high? Sounds like a antitrust issue.
We can keep producing mass amounts of EV’s; we’ll just store them all in caves in middle America.
It'll be like government cheese all over again!
I’ll take some of that government EV. Maybe fill it with government cheese too while they’re at it.
Just bought an EV from a local dealer. Went in on Saturday because they had a 2 month used listing on their website for about 10k under MSRP. They told me, oh no that sold, but please check out the new cars. I entertained them and told them they'd need to bring down the price 10k to get me to sign because it's simply out of my price range. They also mentioned these things (ioniq 6) are selling extremely quickly and they only have a few on the lot.
They insisted and played games for a week, with offers OVER msrp, so I let them waste their time. They pushed me to come in, so as I was about to sign, I told them, actually, no. I need an offer 10k under MSRP or I'm leaving. At this point that was a 15k cut. They've now wasted a week of negotiation and suddenly found the used one I originally requested, but it was at their off-site lot.
We drove over there, and it was a large 5 story parking deckcompletely filled to the top. They even had cars parked in front of cars. They tried one last game and made me wait for 3 hours to get it out.
All that is to say, let the fuckers bleed. If they can't afford Christmas, maybe they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means. If they can't afford new years, it's time to make a new resolution and if they can't afford spring break, it's time to find a new job.
That's straight up bait-and-switch! Good on you to hold them to the original advertisement.
Eventually, they'll move inventory to other dealerships (and the scrapheap), fire-sale the rest, cover their losses, and make room for new models. Dealers are amazing at colossal inventory stunts like this.
Dealers will cry about their inventory while refusing to budge on various “market adjustments”.
Boo hoo. Be competitive and watch the inventory flow.
I've been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven't budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I'm interested in range, so I'm wanting a Limited RWD but they aren't being stocked.
This article screams "I'm not doing my job and it's all your fault!"
There's a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There's a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn't have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
Some of us are still miffed about the 2008 bailouts, which ran entirely counter to the market forces rhetoric. Then the police turned off all the cameras and ran OWS off with riot squads.
No resolution was offered. even Dodd-Frank was reversed by Trump.
So you can expect a lot of civil unrest. It's been due since the great depression, about a century ago.
When beater 20 year old trucks can't even be found for <$10k, you know somethings gotta give
And the best part is you who foresaw it and tried to warn everyone, will have to pay personally towards the bailout
The dealer near me has added an extra 5 grand for market adjustment too.
Yeah, dealers around here have a huge markup over MSRP, “because there’s so much demand.”
Okay, I can wait.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
Yep sounds similar to what's happening here. Since the car was first released you could spec one out with Limited RWD on Hyundai's site but none existed in the entire country up until the last few months when they began trickling out. The website tells you that you can't actually order or build the car you want and instead must visit a dealer and choose something among their inventory. I'm sorry but I'm not going to compromise on a major purchase like this for a brand new vehicle. Dealerships can eat a dick.
While I still think that Hyundai engineering and design did some real magic with the IONIQ 5, I just can’t help but feel like the rest of the company is just screwing the pooch on this car. They’ve flooded the US market with models people there don’t seem to want to buy, and dealership lots often have a dozen or more waiting to be sold.
Meanwhile, here in Canada buying one is damn near impossible. That doesn’t seem to stop them from sending out mass marketing materials and ads trying to sell them (or the IONIQ 6), mind you — I just wish they had focussed first on ensuring their biggest boosters globally were getting the cars they want, as opposed to putting lots of cars nobody seems to want on US dealership lots.
(FWIW, my dealership told me they weren’t being allowed by Hyundai to order any 2023 IONIQ 5s. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence across all dealerships here in Canada, with just a few cars trickling in each month).
Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
Saw one dealer do that to a Honda civic r then brag they got someone to actually pay it
That's why they do it - they only work a fraction of the amount for the same profit by gouging the everliving fuck out of a small number of people.
Are you sure it wasn't a Thundercougarfalconbird?
Shit dealers (and especially the sales people) tend to not at all be trained on how to sell these cars, and can be openly hostile towards people interested in them. EVs don't make them as much money on service.
They can be trained all day every day, but if they know their profits are lower they'll do anything they can to avoid having to work with EVs.
Yup something I keep getting into arguments about at work. Sales makes a mistake on their order. And I somehow as the tech end up sorting it. And that sales person keeps their entire sales commission. I’ve been telling mgmt forever take away the commission if there are reasonable timeframe issues or incorrect selections made by the sales agent. That will make them make sure they perfect it to get their pay.
Edit: I’d like to note I’m not even asking for the commission idc I just want sales to do shit properly. Lol
Took us forever and is still contested now and again, but we managed to force the sales process yo include product managers or owners. Without an estimate from them, which is created in coordination with the engineers and developers, no offer is being made anymore. Certain sales people are butthurt, because the estimated costs are often too high for our "price sensitive clients" as in: they don't know how to sell our products on added value rather than on lower cost.
New car sales people do not give a single fuck about whether the car comes back for service. They get paid for selling cars, full stop. It's possible that management is making ICE car sales commissions higher than EV; that would create an incentive to push ICE.
Commissions on EV sales for legacy automakers are dismal. None of the legacy automakers are making EVs at scale so they are losing 10s of thousands of dollars per EV they sell. Sales personnel aren’t moving them because they have no incentive to do so. Then these companies complain about how there is no demand while the EV sector is growing exponentially.
Tesla got to scale while legacy automakers were all laughing at them and now they have to compete by gaslighting the marketplace about how there is no demand.
I’ve been in an EV since 2020 and am never going back. When people start to wake up to how convenient and comfortable EVs are and stop buying into all of the negative media, it’s only going to snowball from there.
They'll also fail to mention that it's the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they're definitely moving.
I don't know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
Straight up don’t give a single fuck what car dealers want. If they could all go out of business I’d be a happier person
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won't someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
I have hated every single car dealer I have dealt with, even my high school friend, but somehow my Nissan dealer was such a nice guy. He never found anything extra and always gave the straight forward solution, I only worked with him maybe 4 times for the 5 years I owned the car, but my bill was always <$100.
With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
Car Dealers: But what about my cut for bringing absolutely nothing to the table except being a con-man??
EVs require much less maintenance...dealers make much of their money from... maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can't afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can't just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can't just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It's all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
The J1772 protocol is very basic and does not communicate any car identifier back to the charge unit, so it wouldn't know what it's plugged into (other than "something")
And you just....trust other tenants to not just walk off with it?
I'm not worried about that, but I've seen some more cautious people get the cable underneath one of their wheels so that you'd have to move the car to take it. I'm quite sure you could also find another way of attaching or securing it to your car to make it fairly difficult to walk away with. The chargers also aren't really worth much, so it seems unlikely that even someone desperate for cash would put much effort into it.
This is exactly what my neighbor does in his apartment.
But he has a driveway, so it's not like he's running it over the sidewalk or anything.
Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It's all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
Also maybe don't make me buy a car through a dealership. Why can't I just order and car and it gets delivered to my house instead of making me pick it up from a dealer that gets to charge whatever they want for being a middle man on top of the cars already being too expensive.
Side note and probably hot take but I think if manufacturers were serious they would be rushing to phase out most of their combustion vehicles. If people want a new car it's going to be electric and if they don't want EV then they can find a nice used car and pay a premium for gas.
Laws have to change for direct sales of cars, mostly at the state level. Dealership owners also happen to be big donors to state elected officials.
Dealerships in the US are a cartel backed by the government. Multiple states have laws banning direct sales - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes
I would like an electric car next, but I live in an apartment where I couldn't charge it.
Talk to your landlord about adding the infrastructure. It's trivial for them to add 50 AMP rv-style outlets to one side of the lot, and you can then plug in your own mobile charger.
landlords of apartment buildings don't like doing things like this or any other type of thing
Oh man I would love an affordable Honda e in North America. I've seen them in Europe. What a nice little car.
Move to Europe! And get free medicine as a bonus.
I live in Canada. I already have free healthcare. Though not as good as in Europe ngl.
Huh? There are a ton of small EVs that are much cheaper than that. The Nissan Leaf, for example.
Nissan leaf, Chevy bolt (which won't be sold next year) and...??? Everything else is at least 35k starting.
The Bolt has an odd marketing approach behind it. While it may be true that the Bolt will technically be discontinued, there will be its direct successor (built on the Ultium platform)
Also, as a practical matter, you can cut $7500 off the price of any new EV in the US because of the tax incentive.
There is a very real reason why certain classes of cars are EV and not others- you have to be able to charge at home/work to have a good experience. That normally means having a garage, often in a single family house. Apartment dwellers need not apply. Unfortunately, these are also the ones that buy compact cars, meaning there isn't much of a market. The suburbanites that are eligible to charge at home mostly buy SUVs and more expensive sedans.
As I understand it, the $7.5k isn't any EV, but EVs that were assembled/built primarily in the US. Many weren't compliant with that legislation. Not out of spite or anything, but because manufacturing wasn't quite ready to comply. That led to a number of vehicles sitting ineligible for the 7.5k break. As well as consumer confusion over which ones could be discounted. Overall, a transitional growing pain for a crappy industry that relies on monthly sales.
You are correct, and the exact definition/requirement has changed a few times. But many (most?) EVs for sale in the US are eligible. The vehicles themselves are assembled in the US, the big sticking point was the battery. It's something that gets buried in the details rather than advertised at the top. I can confirm the Chevy Bolt is advertised at ~$35k, but in the details you can see that it's eligible for the rebate, effectively bringing it down to ~$27.5k.
A detail to confirm when shopping, but one that is common.
A lot of trucks and SUVs these days are so big they don't even fit in garages.
Renault Zoe is an other. Was 30k like 5-6 years ago
Cars you won't see on the US market of course.
I got ahold of a British car magazine about 20 years ago and was really sad to see all of the awesome small cars and trucks we don't get because Americans are dumb.
Nissan Leaf is 41k MSRP in Canada, I've never paid over 14k for a vehicle. Willing to go in to 20s for an EV because of the gas savings though.
I had saved for an EV for my last vehicle purchase but then the pandemic hit and I started working from home, was driving very little, and I instead used that money to improve the efficiency of my home and upgrade the furnace to heat pump, replace some windows, etc. The amount of ghg's offset just from not using propane to heat my home vastly outweighs the amount I'd offset with an electric vehicle. I think people need to think about what makes sense for them, an EV is a luxury purchase, but if you're lucky enough to own a home then there may be better uses for that money.
So instead of a nice 50k EV I bought a Fit off someone for 8k, then I bought a $900 shitbox Fit for parts. Costs $70/mo in insurance and I put about the same in gas per month. I will likely improve my home's efficiency further if driving habits remain infrequent rather than buy a product like a car.
I'm holding out for a proper hot hatch. Something like a VW Golf or Mazda3. Leaf is a bit too small.
The i3s is a fun as hell hot hatch. I absolutely adore mine, and can't imagine ever selling it. It's much larger on the inside than you'd think, and I move a ton of shit with it regularly.
Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn't so fucking high, they'd be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
Seems telling that they stated they're having 100-200% employee turnover. Those are insane numbers.
But are they "we're going to run out of workers" bad?
I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
What about Rocktober savings, and flailing tube person vendors?
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
My ideal electric car is basically an 85 GTI with an electric motor, but they’re all SUVs
Yeah, I'm disappointed that the evs that are actually so simple are micro cars with an in-town-only top speed and they're only available in Europe.
Closest thing in the US is a Nissan Leaf with a battery upgrade.
And let me rent an extra battery pack for long trips. I only need 40 miles day-to-day, but I gotta go 300 for Christmas.
PHEV is the answer! Give us options, doesn't have to be one of the other; Chevy Volt had it for a bit, but it must not have been profitable because now I can't find a PHEV that gets more than 30 miles on a full charge!
I don't want to buy the oversized battery, and I don't really want to buy the on-board generator/charger of PHEV. I only want to own as much vehicle, and incur the manufacturing carbon debt, to meet 95-98% of my needs. Make it easy to rent, borrow, or share the extra capacity for the last 2%, and the world will be a lot less wasteful. I can see renting a trailer with enough generator to replace a series hybrid. I can see renting surplus battery. And those rental services can be a revenue stream to replace dealerships lost service centers.
Clearly, though, I'm a minority of consumers, and no manufacturer actually wants to cater to me and my twelve friends.
Your use case is very reasonable, and a lot of people want it. But it's a big challenge from a technical/engineering standpoint. You know how a replacement battery pack for an EV costs like $8k and has a range of 300 miles? Your rental battery would cost at least that much, plus whatever costs are involved to make it portable, and integrate it's usage into your existing EV. Then the rental places would need to have massive charging capabilities for when people stop in to swap their empty rental battery for a full one, since it still only has a range of 300 miles (4-5 hours of freeway driving)
I actually think there will be improvements on the fast charging front. You can already see this idea in other places. Many heavy duty trucks have 2 fuel tanks. You can fill them with 2 standard pumps running simultaneously, effectively giving you double the refueling speed. Some phones have dual batteries for the same reason.
You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn't include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that's the only thing I've done to the car in 8 years.
How about people pay attention to local elections? The reason we are not seeing funding for EV infrastructure is most small towns can be bought by the local dealership family who would rather see continued profits from ICE vehicle maintenance and not investments into EV infrastructure, then it conviently sides with this bullshit narrative of nothing can be sold and we have no infrastructure so give up on EVs.
Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that's a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren't even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
He'd be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can't start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its "partners."
Henry Ford? I think he'd be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
Rolling in his grave in excitement you mean?
Tangentially related, there's a supermarket chain in my country that requires you to hand over your personal details to even apply for a job. The rough wording is something like: 'all your personal information in perpitutity but only internally and with people we do business with.' Except since selling my personal info would be a business transaction that clause includes potentially every human being on the planet.
I'm putting money on Toyota and their Panasonic batteries to build something like a Corolla EV for $25k USD 400 mile range.
Infrastructure is going to have to keep up too. Unless you are in a progressive/new/expensive apartment/neighborhood has reliable access to chargers that's going to have to change before you can start selling EVs to lower and lower middle class. Right now they only make sense of you have a garage to park in.
Toyota is a bad bet when it comes to EVs.
They clearly have no interest in selling them.
Out of curiosity, how much would it cost for you to consider an EV affordable for the everyday person?
The Chevy Bolt has been around for years and can be purchased new for less than $30k. Same with the Nissan Leaf. That's a pretty attainable number for a lot of working adults, and that's assuming you buy brand new. Multiple 2020 Bolts are available near me for around $20k. I'm seeing Bolts that might be another year or two older as low as $15k
I'd argue that price isn't the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
Not him and it may not be the only thing, but it's a main thing.
30k is a lot for a new car, and most EVs I've seen start at 30k.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k. Financially savvy people know that the savings in gas will take years to recoup depending upon how often you drive the car.
Then there's depreciation because a used EV with limited range is practically worthless, replacing a battery in one can run up to 15k, and Chevys in general don't hold their value.
Now is price the only thing? No. I personally also am a little hesitant to buy one and the hidden costs of having to upgrade my electrical in the garage in order to effectively charge it, and I suspect others have similar concerns.
All that said my next vehicle will likely be an EV, and I really hope Honda gets its act together because if not I'll end up having to go with someone else.
Ehhhh not anymore.. this could just vary by location, but these days it's not easy to find a used car like you describe for under 10k, unless it's 15+ years old with 150k+ miles on it, then maybe you'll find something in the $8-10k range. But that's a roll of the dice. A car like that might only last you a year, if that.
The used car market in the US is completely fucked since COVID. And knowing how capitalism works, I imagine this is the "new normal" when it comes to used cars, and we all better start getting used to it.
I waited for Honda to come up with an electric or even a plug-in hybrid van, and gave up. Bought a Model Y.
For comparison, Chinese companies sell EVs like hot cakes in Asia for <$15K. They sell it even cheaper in the mainland.
$15,000 is a cheap affordable price.
Bullshit. These dealers don't want to sell EVs because they can't bait you into a sales pitch 4 times a year with free oil changes.
Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out
When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable "security" etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn't that I didn't want one, it's that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn't budge. Fuck off.
The infrastructure isn't there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they're really expensive is actually secondary considering they're just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
I think this is ignoring the fact that the average americans daily milage is so little (around 30 miles)that an electric car can be topped up off a Level 1 charger. Even more if you can get a level 2 charger.
So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
I would love to consider getting an electric car whenever I can afford a new(er) vehicle. But there's no way my landlord will let me run an extension cord from my 3rd story apartment around the building and around the pond between my building and the parking lot. It's sad that an EV would be so great, but its really a mark of privilege to own both in initial affordability and just having the place to park and charge one. Not that it matters, I can't afford anything other than my 24 year old Honda.
TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
Electric bikes suck in the Wisconsin winter
You should be able to, but US non-car infrastructure is so abysmal that there's a strong chance you can't safely unfortunately
Ignoring how that would work even under ideal circumstances, do you propose that large portions of the country use a bike when it's below freezing? Because that's a non-starter, and no one will take you seriously.
I currently bike or walk most places, but I also know that's not a common situation in the US. For me the car is only used for anything far enough away.
And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
This isn't an unsolvable problem though given demand.
Assuming you're in an appartment with dedicated parking, it's not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren't demanding it the building isn't going to supply it.
If you're stuck with street parking, you're right, your use case isn't best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn't a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn't seem like justification to stop rollout.
Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
Maybe I read about the next level
Level 3 fast chargers (the kind you would want at a gas station) are legitimately difficult to arrange infrastructure for in some areas. Multiple 200+ kW loads are not something that many properties are wired for. It's an enormous investment.
Level 2 chargers are basically trivial to install in comparison and can be supported just about anywhere with two phase service. They're much slower than level 3 chargers, but are a great option for any place that people stop with the intent to stay for an hour or more. Workplaces, restaurants, shopping malls, etc.
Ty for education
I loved my Volt... Charged overnight in a normal 110 outlet got me the 43 miles to work and back (after about year 5, not quite the whole way) but I could still decide to go on a 600 mile road trip spur of the moment. Had to give up the 2014 in 2023 when a full charge wouldn't go 20 miles. ☹️
There is no PHEV comparable now, though! Made the switch back to full ICE and I hate it.
I have a 2017 bolt EV - bought used, not one that is advertised as having great mileage even in 2017. I routinely take it 400-500mi plus drives with one or maybe two charge stops for vacation and family trips. Middle of ME to the southern tip of NJ. My home is somewhere in the middle.
Charged off my 110 outlet since I got to car (about 4 years) up to last month Oct 2023 when I got a 220v outlet installed as part of another project. One charge was enough for the week. Occasionally I'd plug in at work or at a friends. Worst case actually pay $5-9 for a DC quick charge if I know I'm doing a long drive. All that is way easier if you just have a place to plug in consistently at home.
I don't get the negativity most people have twords EVs. Everyone is astounded when I say I just plug it into the wall and have to plan longer trips slightly more, like that's not news anymore.
And there's a bunch more DC chargers than when I first started driving an EV - so it's wayyy easier for new folks to adopt.
It sounds like you could've taken that car back for a warranty claim.... depending on your state it should be able to do about 30 miles after either 8 or 15 years, and your was doing less than 20 at 9 years... I assume you were in an eight year state?
Having said that, draining the battery fully every day will absolutely kill it. It's not good for the battery to be empty that often... an EV with a 300 mile range and the same driving pattern could probably go well over a million miles on the original battery. That's far longer than the typical life of a modern ICE engine (unless its an engine specifically intended for commercial fleets - those last longer).
Of course, a battery that can do 300 miles is very expensive.
This is the real reason I think high mileage batteries are important... I think most people don't need 300 miles, but a battery that can do that can also be charged to 60% or 80% and charged before going below 20%, which should dramatically improve its life (saving the full capacity for the once in a while longer trips)
The Prius Prime isn't too different, in that it's also a compact PHEV although the battery range is a bit shorter.
Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is I would say even better.
I want and have wanted an EV since 2013.....can't afford one. So to be clear, it's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of making an affordable one.
That and long distance travel are my concerns. Will I have to keep stopping for long charging sessions. Will there even be a charger on the route at all.
A third concern is how safe the lithium batteries are for charging, it would have to be inside my garage that is on the 1st floor. I guess it's probably not too much of a concern but I worry about even leaving small lithium batteries charging unattended.
You could drive from New York to la in a model three with about twelve 30 minute stops. Given that it's a multi day drive, you can even fold a charge or two into overnight parking. While that is more than a gas car, it's not horrible.
New York to Miami is about six stops. I would have to stop around the same amount of times in my relatively fuel efficient ice (30 mpg), though (some) of the stops would be significantly shorter.
I would like to buy an electric car but I will not because;
Most of those fears aren't completely valid anymore.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 10+ years or more out of a car without shelling out a large sum of money for a battery swap. This is probably my only concern. Repairability and the cost of those repairs.
If you have street parking in a urban area there's a good chance you can't get a outlet connected to your car without running a extension cord from your window, across a sidewalk, and then to the port.
I live in a small town in a rural area. There is one charger in my town, but it's at the county building and is for county employees. There are chargers at grocery stores, but those are 50kms away.
My house still has a fuse box, I don't have any available holes. The whole system needs changed and I will, but that's $10k and that's not a very exciting purchase.
I guess I didn't mean lease, I meant financing. I definitely hope to have a vehicle at least 7 years. I just upgraded my paid off corolla because we needed all wheel drive vehicle for our winters here. Otherwise I'd have kept it till it died in 20 years (corolla joke). The electric car would have to be comparable to that and I'm not sold that they will be. We bought one of the few cars available to us without a multi month wait.
I'm sure many of my fears are unjustified, but I require further evidence. I'm not an early adopter type.
You really only have 1 problem (aside from perceptions), but it's a real one. You need to be able to charge at home, and it sounds like you probably can't do that. You'd be stuck on trickle charging (3 miles of range per hour on the charger), and even that's questionable.
The car will keep the battery warm whenever it's plugged in. If you take care of the battery (rarely let it go all the to 0% or 100%), it will easily last over 100k miles, and probably to 200k. When it does start to wear out, it's not a hard cutoff- just like your phone, you'll notice the capacity (range) starts to drop.
FWIW, there are very significant federal rebates/tax credits in the US for EVs. That specifically includes upgrading electrical service to support an EV charger. But given that you said kms, I have to assume you are in a different country. Many have their own incentives, but you'd have to check into those yourself.
I charge my car off of a regular outlet outside in a very cold climate, and charging like that will actually likely make the battery last quite a while. The only way to find out for sure is to wait, but it has been 4 years and the battery hasn't lost any capacity. My car also has a 320 km range, so even in your scenario, if you charged 50km away and came home, you'd still have 270km of range.
I think you may have given too much weight to FUD about EVs from companies that would like to see them fail. I've seen a lot of concerns posted online that just don't practically matter, once you actually try it. There's also some really nice minor things about owning an EV, like not having to breathe in toxic fumes when walking around the car. Especially nice if you have kids that are right at the level of the tailpipe.
It is also fine to wait a bit, of course. In my area chargers are springing up in lots of places, and I think we're not far off from a tipping point away from ICE cars, which will spread even to rural areas pretty quickly when gas stations start becoming unprofitable.
Good to hear. I fully expect our next car to be electric. Funny enough, the only gas station in my town just announced it was closing this year (the tanks are outdated and the company isn't replacing them). Perhaps I made the wrong decision buying another ICE vehicle. Won't be the first time I was wrong.
Good news! I've got information relevant to you. I grew up in a locale that would drop below 0F for most of the winter. It was NORMAL to get an oil heater and plug it into your 110v 15amp outlet outside.
Well with EV's you get that same cable, and plug it in and it accomplishes basically the same goal but for the battery instead of the oil. Even better it trickles "fuel" into your "tank" over night.
Or if you splash out dolla bills, you can get a dryer plug installed (240v 50amp) which fully charges your EV in a couple hours and keeps it nice and warm all night.
Everything else is the same, you put snow tires on it, drive to the slopes, skii all day, drive home....one difference though, its heat is available within seconds unlike my old car which took 10+ minutes in subzero temps to heat up and blow warm air. Heck, my EV has heated wiper fluid. That's pretty cool.
oh... and here's some extra cool parts.... if you do the Airbnb thing somwhere, your "fuel" is included. Just plug it in to their 110v outside outlet. When driving back down the slopes, you know what it does? It CHARGES THE CAR! You get free "fuel", just for driving back down the hill.
In all seriousness, a couple road trips with mine, in both 100+F and below 32F, I found out that all of those things don't matter. Yes winter tires wreck the efficiency, yes cold wrecks the efficiency, but it's still well over 200+ miles. All the extra convenience is so nice, that you really don't want to go back.
One example, I drove the same route to the beach at different times, one in the winter, I got there with 31% battery remaining. The same trip in the summer I had 55% batter remaining. So, like 1/3rd a tank of gas left, or half a tank of gas. Both are FIIIIINE. Know what I didn't do? Go to the gas station. I just plugged it in to the slow ass 110 wall outlet since... I'm at the beach for the weekend, in an airbnb... I don't know how long it took, because it was charged when I was ready to leave. Honestly, how do people not see how convenient this is?
Battery life is pretty widely available for Tesla's at least since they've been around for over a decade now. And like any car, it depends on how the owner drove it and maintained it. Some last forever, some are trash within years.
It's not a oil heater, it's a block heater, it heats the prestone.
Most ev's dont charge with more than 7 kwh and habe active battery themp controll.
Dont worry your phone is not blowing up in under 3 years and those batterys get mistreatet.
I also highly recomend lobing your employer for a charger at the workplace.
My boss is a total asshole. I'm self employed.
Block heaters are a thing for decades and no one worries about needing to keep the oil warm. Don't see how warming a battery is any different.
I don't use a block heater. I don't have a heated driveway. I don't have heaters on my eaves. I don't heat a bird bath. I don't have exterior flood lights. If I can help it I don't run heaters outside where I am not. I said in the OP I don't like the thought of throwing electricity into the wind.
Supply and demand, right? Surely they'll get cheaper, right?
Nah, dealerships don't actually want to sell EVs because they make most of their money with maintenance, and with an EV there's basically barely any.
Exactly. I've loved mine, only maintenance has been updates for the software, and occasional tire rotations.
Dont forget those pesky air filters that they insist on changing every year
In their defense the cabin and engine air filters do need to be changed frequently.
That being said, they're incredibly cheap at any parts store and stupidly easy to replace. Better yet: buy washable ones.
Car dealers don't want to sell EVs, it's a lot more work for them
They can sell an ICE vehicle within an hour of a customer showing up on the lot.
EVs can take multiple days and sit downs to try and sell because people have questions since it's new and they want to understand the details before purchasing.
That means less commission, so salesmen try to avoid selling people EVs over ICE vehicles.
Also less money on repairs. ICE are in the dealership shop ten times as much.
Dealers actively steer customers away from EVs because they are low maintenance.
There's a huge wave of anti ev propaganda coming out. Beware.
You're not gonna sell shit with jacked up sky high prices, even more so in a time of high interest rates. We see your lots are full of unsold cars, both ICE and EV, so maybe it's time to bring prices back down to Earth.
We really ought to change the laws to allow for direct-to-consumer car sales. Dealerships are scummy motherfuckers who are perfectly happy to be a middleman and rip people off.
Dealers are waiting to see it the country becomes a full on fascist, road warrior, shit-hole country or continue on a path to a modern first world democracy.
Gotta push the EV infrastructure harder. No good pushing lots of EV cars when the infrastructure isn’t there to support them. Can’t charge at work. Can’t charge at your apartment complex. No charge at the shopping areas. Etc. Other than the high initial cost, I’d suggest that the inconvenience and irritation of trying to locate charging along with range limits is a major factor in people not wanting EV.
This is the #1 reason I won't be able to get an EV any time soon. We live in a townhouse, and while the HOA gracefully 'allows' us to install chargers (because its illegal for them not to allow it), the way the rules are set up it's practically impossible to actually install one.
For example, here's our bylaws regarding EV chargers:
There are a number of things in there that are contradictory. You can install a L2 charger, but if you're in a townhouse, you're not allowed to wire it up using 240V. You also can't place it on your house, because the cord wouldn't be able to reach and that's not allowed anyway, because it'd cross a sidewalk. Neat.
Exactly right. The next best step would be for businesses to install them for employees and customers, but that’s a big expense and maintenance problem.
I really don’t know what the answer is. I’m completely for EV, but the unpredictable ,or lack of availability, of charging is a big deal.
Sell EV’s under $30k and you’ll sellout!
The Bolt? Sorry, they are getting rid of that for a few years. Hell, it took a lot for them to even agree to bring the damn thing back. They were going to kill it despite its popularity.
It's ridiculous how bad EV prices are. They think 2 years of wages for a sedan with leather seats is reasonable
Do they even sell ice’s for that?
Average vehicle sale price in the US in 2023 was just under $48k… so only if you buy used.
That’s what I was thinking. I recently spoke to a man who said he looked at a new Ford ice. 100k. He repaired his 90s model.
You can get a base Tesla model 3 for under 30k with the federal incentive right now. Go to the website if you don’t believe me.
People still don’t understand that EVs have a total cost of ownership that saves you 10-20k over the life of the vehicle compared to an ICE vehicle. Now the sticker prices are getting cheaper than ICE vehicles and people still can’t get past the expensive versions from a few years ago.
If you’re waiting for Ford to offer a sub 30k vehicle, you’re going to be waiting a while. They seem to be giving up on trying to get to scale on production and won’t bring costs down on the numbers they’re pumping.
I would have bought a plug in electric, but my apartment didn't like the idea of me throwing extension cords out my second story window.
No one expects they should be able to install a gas station in their backyard to buy an ICE vehicle. The issue is infrastructure.
Even with an outlet who wants to slow charge a plug-in EV? The infrastructure isn't there and the cars are too expensive.
Slow charge is probably fine for a lot of folks. If you have a 240 mile battery range, travel 30 miles in a day and charge 80 miles overnight, you are at full charge from 0 in about 5 days.
No plug at all though means you don't charge at all, and commercial fast charging isn't that much cheaper than gas.
They should make batteries that swap out completely so you can load a fully charged one in in a few seconds and let your old one charge while you're off driving somewhere else. Or you just exchange the battery permanently like with some propane tanks.
Fuck you. I could barely afford a Honda Fit.
It's the super wealthy that are being prosperous meanwhile the rest of us are getting fucked.
Meanwhile every EV on the market is sold as a luxury car and they can't grok why the fuck nobody's buying. Gee I fucking Wonder...
Car dealers are useless middlemen that should be put out of business.
I want an EV but the only affordable option is Chevy and somewhat the Nissan Leaf. Every other option is way to expensive. If my current car died, I guess I would buy one of them. But I'm going to drive it into ground or until sometime else affordable comes along.
I think driving your car to the ground is the most environment friendly approach anyway regardless of the type of car you'll buy next.
On the other hand, I'd assume if the old car is functional, they'd sell it to someone who would then "drive it to the ground" (or sells it to another). It's environmentally friendly as long as the car is used by someone
Yeah. It's not like the car just disappears if you get another one. I need EVs to enter the used car market so i can actually afford them.
Give me an EV without a massive center console that blinds me at night. Remove all the "smart" features like lane assist. Give me a fucking dumb EV
This drives me crazy. Take a solid platform like the FRS.. electrify it for something equiv to 300/300 and give it a 200 mile range. No fancy interior, lots of plastic, no lane assist etc. It would be fun and affordable. Same platform could be used for a more refined crossover.
I feel like Honda really should have done some type r civic thing but with electric.
I really do think this will happen in the near future. Right now, every company is targeting the high end segment and slowly making it's way down.
It may also have something to do with all the announcements about changing the charging port. I wouldn’t buy a car when I know they’re changing g that next year. I mean, it’s about time, but that’s going to deter buyers
I look forward to buying an EV with a usb-c charging port.
You can't sell EV's because:
1: too expensive to buy new 2: if you live anywhere that's not a big city, or you have a garage, there is basically no electric chargers for you.
The city I live in (~30k people) has 6 chargers total. None of them are superchargers. Wait times are already a sticking point in the best case, nevermind what the wait times would be if everyone where I'm at had an electric car tomorrow. The whole downtown would maybe gridlock just because of people waiting.
For comparison, there are probably 2-300 gas pumps around the city. 5 gas stations within 5 minutes of where I am, all with at least 8 pumps, all well used. People are not going to get EV's unless there is an infrastructure that is equivalent to gas around where they live.
And that infrastructure is not gonna be fun to get going.
The average person living in the city can't really use them with street parking, can't always guarantee a spot after all, and installing a personal one for yourself all but requires a personal garage, which locks out the people who live in poorer housing.
Lots of people in my city and I suspect many others live in trailer parks with low/fixed incomes, having just a simple driveway. Where are they gonna get the thousand or two to install a Level 2 charging station? My mom and dad certainly don't have the money.
Expecting the EV companies to make the infrastructure with the money they get just from selling EV's is gonna turn into one gigantic chicken-and-egg problem. The government is going to have to do it, and anyone who's not living along an interstate can see just how much benefit they are personally getting from it so far.... (hint: none)
You don't need a level 2 charger at home. You don't need gas stations equivalents. EV companies won't make infrastructure, because we've already built tons of infrastructure for EVs and it's called the electric grid. Everywhere has electricity. I was recently in a very remote area for vacation in my EV, and just plugged my car into a regular outlet to charge it up. To get there, I stopped for lunch and plugged my car in at a supercharger while I ate.
Target is putting in superchargers at lots of their locations around me. Other places are or will follow suit. If you can't charge at home, you'll simply stop by the store/mall/whatever, do your normal shopping, and have your car charge in the meantime. Or you'll charge at work, or any number of other places.
EVs aren't hard, they just require a mindset shift. People worry about this and that, but it's because they haven't actually tried it and have given too much weight to FUD spread about EVs.
A second hand Renault Zoe can be had for about £5k. MG4 for about £25k if you insist on getting new. I appreciate these may not be options where you live but the prices are coming down if you're willing to look beyond the traditional brands.
What these articles fail to mention is that it's the "legacy" brands like Ford that are struggling. Brands like BYD and Tesla are doing just fine and are struggling to keep up with demand in some cases.
Also, you charge at home.
The infrastructure where you live doesn't matter. The infrastructure where you're going to or on the route might matter if it's far away enough.
I live in a town with a smaller population than yours. We have 2 chargers at 50kw, which is pretty slow by modern standards.
So far I've used it once when testing that the car was working okay when I first got it. That's it. Never used it since. Because I charge at home.
Nearest super charger is around 50 miles away. Which is fine. Because I'll always leave with 100% charge.
I've never waited for charging. Probably because I own a Tesla and have access to their super charging network which was about 50% the reason I got that over the Ioniq 5 or Nissan Aryia. I look forward to the competition getting better and my recommendation being beyond "get a Tesla if you're worried about charging".
And yes, I have done long trips (at least by UK standards) and I have needed to charge before I got home. But the car's range is bigger than my bladder's/stomach's range so frankly I would have stopped anyway and the car took care of adding charging stops for me.
I have seen people queuing at non Tesla chargers and can only assume it's a frustrating experience. In the UK new chargers are being opened at an impressive rate (up ~40% on last year, IIRC) so hopefully that issue won't be so bad in the future.
It's not there yet, but the problems are getting solved and the prices are coming down. If you can charge at home then it's probably a good option. If you can't, that's another matter.
In the same way you don't care about MTU settings to get the best out of your Internet these days, you won't care about the issues with charging and prices soon. It will suddenly get better and nobody will even notice or care anymore.
I don't think the vast emptiness that is the US translates well to the UK. By area, New Mexico is almost the exact same size as the british isles, and it's only the 5th largest state. I've done 400+ miles in a single day of driving many times. The furthest I've driven in a day was close to 800 miles.
Yeah, someone from the UK lecturing Americans on how EV infrastructure is just fine is rich. There are EVs capable of getting them pretty much anywhere in their country on a single charge. Meanwhile, I wouldn't be able to visit my parents two states away without needing to charge halfway through. And the options if you have a family are even fewer and more expensive. There are six of us in our household. Which EV should we drop 6 figures on to get us and our luggage 600 miles away for the holidays?
Sure, but we have chargers everywhere. There's a guy in this thread with 6 chargers in his whole US town of 30,000 people. We have 6 chargers on an office building of 30 people. Get your shitty infrastructure together, and all those distance issues disappear. Nobody is driving 600 miles without a break. What are you all doing, pissing in bottles?
In the meantime, how about rent a vehicle for that one instance a year where you want to travel more than to and from work. Or heaven forbid, public transportation.
"But what about that time four years ago where you had to take a fridge home?"
"Aw gee I'd better buy a Ford F150 monster truck. Thanks Motor industry!"
In fairness many people.in the UK have parents living two countries away in Spain. I doubt that is taken into account when buying a car, particularly an ev .
Most people would consider flying for such visits, and I thought that was standard in the US too. Don't most people take a domestic flight when you need to cross more then one state border?
Family of six is less of an issue in Europe that's definitely not normal and would greatly reduce your options when buying a vehicle, electric or not.
People in the US typically only take domestic flights between major cities and usually only if they are traveling a long distance (across multiple states).
One reason for this is because you usually have to rent a car when you reach your destination anyway. So if you fly two states away to visit family, land in the closest city to where they live, now you have to rent a car at the airport and drive a couple of hours to their house. You've now paid for a flight and a car rental and you probably could have gotten there cheaper and just as quickly, if not faster, if you drove.
You really can't expect equal infrastructure to gas when so many people can charge at home and that's enough for the vast majority of driving. DC fast charging is for road trips and people who can't charge at home for whatever reason (mainly apartments). Yes, I understand they exist.
That said, the home modifications needed are often overestimated. I got a 50 amp 240V outlet installed in my garage. One electrician quoted $1300, but GM has a promo for a free installation. That guy quoted $1800, but GM paid it in full. More importantly: my panel is on the other side of the house. They had to run about 50 feet of wiring through my laundry room and up to the front of my garage - hardly a typical scenario when so many people have the panel in or near their garage already. That was for a huge circuit that will basically last me forever. But honestly? So many people grossly overestimate their needs. Even a little 16A 240V outlet would be just fine for most people, most of the time, and that's really not much different than adding a normal outlet in terms of cost. Speaking of normal outlets, even that can get you a few dozen miles of charge overnight, every night, which is pretty close to what an average person drives over a year.
When I bought my Volt 10 years ago, I knew more about the car than any of the dealer sales people. I doubt the situation has changed much. That being said, I would hesitate to recommend an EV to a non technically inclined person, because the charging situation is still rough even in CA. Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn't work, or they are in inconvenient areas. Gas is still the idiot proof option. We will know we're really in the future when you can go to most grocery stores or strip mall and charge with tap to pay (no stupid app to pre-configure). There has to be 95% reliability. Right now I'd say about 1/5 of stations I visit have something wrong with them in terms of no internet connection for billing, slow charging, illegible UV-damaged screen, or just outright broken hardware. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-air
Standardization is the key.
Regulating that all petrol gas stations also have charging stations for electricity would be a step in the right direction. That way somebody will be on duty to deal with situations that you've mentioned above.
I believe in large the reason for all the malfunctions at charging stations is because they're unmanned.
ICE vehicles suffer from the same problems, we're just accustomed to them and understand how to work around the issues.
I wouldn't say gas stations have the same frequency of problems honestly. 19 times out of 20, my gas is dispensed without issue. And I'm able to buy it without joining a program or going out of my way. Electric charging is not yet that convenient, and it should be.
car dealers literally don't need to exist and make the buying experience worse for everyone
Translation: Car dealers don't make as much money from EV's.
Car sales is a racket anyway, the dealers make too much money, the car manufacturers make too much money, and with the prospect of a new technology that costs more they've realised that they can't charge as much more, meaning they profit less.
Price is not proportional to cost.
The biggest crime is the villainisation of haggling. Price must be negotiable for a system to remain fair.
Yeah, hate haggling. Never know if it is actually a good deal, and tracking prices and deals is so unreliable compared other goods with the way those have historic price tracking recorded on sites like camelcamelcamel or keepa. Keeps consumers in the dark with only a broad idea of what isn't a scam price and making the experience as exhausting as possible to extract money from them.
Correction
EV cars are better than ICE cars, but the biggest problems with cars are so much bigger than the type of engine they use. As grateful as I am for EV cars being a thing sometimes they just feel like a distraction from solving the actual fundamental issues around transportation.
I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I'd argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.
A problem with EV is those cars are infected with DRM.
Remember tesla deactivate DLC ?
Wasn't there a story like a week ago about dealers sabotaging EV sales?
Article: Electric vehicles are hitting a road block: Car dealers
Thank you!
A couple of them. This is more fuel to the dealership dumpster fire.
I've totally got the money to buy a new car. My 2005 forester is getting long in the tooth and i'm ready to replace it.
I want a smallish car with the same basic features: AWD, 4door, boxy rear so I can toss a full size mtn bike in there, good in the snow, etc.
My distinct impression is that the manufacturers want to sell high end (all the options and $$) but don't give a shit about usability. Chevy volt comes close but can't take a bike.
I wouldn't exactly call any car that you can throw a full size mountain bike in the back a "small car." I could barely do that with my old Subaru outback.
At this point in time, you're going to be looking at a Kia Niro (sans awd), Subaru Solterra / Toyota Bz4x, plug-in hybrid Crosstrek, EV6, EV9, Ioniq 5, Volvo EX30, C40, XC40, Polestar 3, and Tesla model 3 and Y.
But really what you want to do is to put a hitch on the back with a hitch mounted bicycle rack. They cost about 4 to $500 for a full install and will let you carry a bike without needing a huge car.
Your other option of course is a pickup truck like a Rivian, Lightning or Cybertruck but those will set you back probably $75,000 to $100,000.
Are hybrids still a thing?
Yes the new Ford Maverick has a hybrid option and it's been selling very well.
So well in fact that if you want one you probably can't get one, unless you are willing to pay 20% over MSRP for a used one. And now for 2024, the hybrid drivetrain is no longer the standard and is instead a $2500 upgrade. I wanted one but honestly fuck Ford.
They refuse to learn about them and actively direct people to ICE vehicles. No shit they are having a 'hard time' selling them. They have tried less than nothing to sell them.
This year, 18% of all automobile sales worldwide were electric cars. In the US, that's about 7%.
This seems not good. I might have been slightly more sympathetic to the dealers before reading this?
Lol yeah, I've worked in a dealership. I was fine with it till my foreman got fired because he took all the blame from customers instead of staff.
Anyways when they were interviewing his replacement I started looking for a new job. I got into it with him because he wouldn't even listen to anyone talk about pay raises.
High turnover in sales has been common for forever in some dealerships. Many salesmen work only commission so they hire more than needed, don't train them and let anyone who doesn't meet quota go. Meeting quota is impossible because there are more salesmen than needed, and you need years to build up a following of loyal customers (most customers are not loyal no matter what you do, but the few who are go to the few long timers) . Non loyal customers like to think they are buying from the new salesman so long timers have a set of business cards without a name on them to hand out.
The above is what I remember from an Edmund's article from around 2000 when they hired a new writer and the first story was to get a job selling cars to find out what it was really like. I doubt much has changed. (Not all car sales are that way, but many are, and that is reflected in turnover)
I agree with them but not for the reasons they would like, less pushing of EVs more pushing of good public transportation.
I'm not buying an EV not because of lack of infrastructure or lack of interest, but because the product sucks.
I'm not buying a gas car either for the same product sucking reason, and an active desire to never purchase a gas car again.
I just leased an Ioniq 6 from a Hyundai dealership end of October. The salesperson was great, but she didn’t know anything about EVs, especially their own. She even admitted it was the first one she’s sold.
I went back a week ago and found the same 5 Ioniq 6’s sitting there. I’m pretty sure they’ll stay there for quite a while.
She hasn't even sold that one, since you leased it instead of buying it.
Fair enough, I went lease because everyone’s going NACS soon.
Wow angling to pass lawyers as the most reviled profession in the country huh?
car dealers bring as much value to society as landlords. it's a negative value.
Fellas, fellas, please. I assume you, I wouldn't buy the gas one either.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
After making record profits in the wake of the pandemic and the collapse of just-in-time inventory chains, they're now complaining that selling electric vehicles is too hard.
Almost 4,000 dealers from around the United States have sent an open letter to President Joe Biden calling for the government to slow down its plan to increase EV adoption between now and 2032.
More and more car buyers are opting to go fully electric each year, although even a record 2023 will fail to see EV uptake reach double-digit percentages.
Mindful of the fact that transportation accounts for the largest segment of US carbon emissions and that our car-centric society encourages driving, the US Department of Energy published a proposed rule in April that would alter the way the government calculates each automaker's corporate average fuel efficiency.
Over the summer, industry analysts at Cox Auto made plenty of headlines with data showing that new EV inventory was growing.
Helpfully, the dealers published a complete list of the 3,882 signatories, making it very easy for people to see which businesses are opposing action on climate change.
The original article contains 586 words, the summary contains 183 words. Saved 69%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
We bought an EV recently and the dealership told us the Market Adjustment was the easiest thing to negotiate away.
That's because it's a made up number that they add on instead of just pricing the vehicle accurately. So then they advertise it as $60K and then add the market adjustment of $40K.
If I was Attorney General I'd be shutting dealers down if the price before TTL was even $1 higher than the advertised price.
They need to boost the amount of parts produced in the US so they’ll qualify for the rebate.
"The hard times of the Middle Man". I can see the book now.
Sure they can. Just give the $7500 credit to an EV worth its price.
Hmm, then what's your purpose again?
I wonder if new vehicle sales are down overall. If I had to replace my car today, I'd be looking for something second hand.
Edit: According to Cox Automotive Inc., September sales were actually up 13% from last year. Huh.
Covid-19 shut down a lot of factories. Not just US car factories but also suppliers of small/cheap components (some of them worth less than one cent each) just couldn't be purchased in large volumes.
As far as I know the industry still hasn't fully recovered. 13% year over year growth isn't a 13% increase in demand, it's a 13% increase in the number of cars they're able to sell.