"Colonel updates require a reboot, but just normal application updates do not. And most system updates do not. I partly misspoke about Android. I should have been more clear because I was referring to the A/B partition scheme, but yeah, to run the new system does require rebooting.
*Kernel
Colonel Kernel
It was the British spelling.
š As a Canuck, we use both. But the computer term is definitely Kernel. Unless we're marching out on a battlefield....
I love linux and been using it for decades, personally and professionally, but no, linux doesn't have "hot patching" the same way as that article describes it. At most it can live patch the kernel (and only few distros actually use that), but definitely not for the last 20 years, and definitely not running processes. However, it does usually restart background processes after an update without requiring a reboot, but in my experience, often times the system becomes unstable after several such updates and rebooting is effectively necessary (though not forced, and that's why I like it).
Yeah, the security in knowing that if you're way top busy right now, you don't have to install or even download any updates. And you don't have to worry your system will suddenly become crashy, glitchy, and unstable because it decided on its own to install some things and let you know you can reboot whenever.
It's so freaking annoying I have to use Windows at work. It takes liberty to do what it wants and then my workflow gets hosed.
I get that there is security, but if you force updates, I should have some kind of notice or "hey, we need to install mandatory updates. You can schedule in the next 24 hours when or you can get them over with"
For the home user, this is a giant PITA for which I wholly blame MS.
For business machines, I lump the company IT in with MS, because there are Policies for this stuff they should be managing.
I say this as an IT person responsible for things like this. The first rule is don't fuck with user machines during business hours, the second is to allow them to postpone stuff as needed.
Can only imagine getting an update, then a reboot, while I'm on an outage call trying to get a critical system back up. And hoping my laptop comes back up and my VPN still works.
Canāt say Iāve experienced forced reboots on either my home or work PC; I always have gotten an option.
Do you have to ignore updates for a while until theyāre forced? Iām pretty quick with updating when Iām notified- typically that evening when Iām done with the computer.
Iāve been building my own windows PCs since 99, using every main version of consumer Windows except ME. Never been forced while in the middle of something.
With Win10 and later (I honestly don't remember with Win 8), by default updates happen in the background, and will be applied and a reboot scheduled.
It won't necessarily force a reboot, but it can reboot when you're not there. I've had updates with reboot happen when I was away for 30 minutes, on a machine I was setting up and hadn't yet configured policies.
The updates quietly happening in the background are still a problem because they can't be paused or canceled and they use a lot of sysrme resources to get done. And when they're complete, your experience is less stable till the reboot.
I usually notice them when my work computer slows down and things start having more bugs than usual. My work computer has very respectable specs
I agree, but this echo chamber doesnāt accept such alternate realities.
Security? HA! If business realized they could eliminate 85-95% of their attack vectors by getting rid of Windows, weād all be better off.
They wonāt, though. Realize it.
Edit: Oh i see, you meant security patches. Yes, true. I stand by my hinged rant though.
Current versions of windows literally let you set an update reboot window. So set up the times you use it, and then forget about it and let it install whenever it wants.
I honestly, and sincerely, do not understand all the hate Windows gets with current updates. The alternative at the moment is āhope the user remembers to updateā which we have seen in action and which does not work.
Is it annoying when you donāt set things up properly? Sure! But thatās a failing on the users side.
Iāve been using Windows for decades, and the last time I had it unexpectedly reboot for an update was years ago. Because Iāve actually taken the 10 minutes to understand the system, and how to configure it to do what I want.
I haven't used Windows 11 interestingly, so I don't know if they've changed their update habits, and I wouldn't be surprised either way. Windows 10 is the last edition I've used.
Since Windows 8, I had plenty of issues with Windows and Microsoft, and it got worse every release. I'll bullet-form my personal complaints at the bottom of this page.
My final straw for Windows 10 in my personal life was a forced restart, and I had all my update settings where I wanted them, and still, I lost a really important session to that reboot. Since I was pretty comfy with Linux, I went that direction. Since then, Linux has gotten more user-friendly and plays videogames, way more than Mac. It's still not something I recommend to most people, but probably someday, it'll get to a Mac or Windows ease of use.
At work, most of us haven't been migrated to Windows 11 from Windows 10, and I still get updates installing in the background a lot, causing issues even on our Windows servers. I'm sure our ops team can tune these abhorrent update defaults, but it's just a frustrating experience nonetheless.
I think a prompt or reminder could go really far to let the user configure that during setup.
Here are some of my complaints over time:
Force installs and bloat. Inclusion of bloat by default. Reinstallation of bloat on updates.
Resetting of my settings and registry edits regularly.
Ads on the desktop
Needless nagging to use their other bullshit like Onedrive. You think it's good? Great! Let me uninstall it and use the cloud providers of my choice.
Forcing an inferior start menu without a choice to use alternatives or the old ones.
Windows tracks insane amounts of users' data and actrivities, and I do not trust them to admit to all the tracking they do but the tracking they admit to doing is already mind-boggling.
Windows 10's forced upgrade and Windows 10 popup scandals were completely dishonest and disgusting, and I have not heard enough apologies for what they did. This personally affected me and broke a bunch of crap before Windows 10 was even well-baked.
A history of forced updates. A history of forced reboots. A history of lost work. This is me and my family. It sounds like Windows has reverted some of their worst practices, but the precedent is set, and I'll never trust Microsoft to stick to it.
The Windows seeker's scandal personally affected me. They put all sorts of beta garbage on my computer without telling me. This caused a loss of files.
They've made a resurgence on their unethical behaviors in the browser space. I have faith they'll continue to revisit their other old habits. Look up Embrace-Extend-Extinguish and it'll get you started. IE was their old baby. Edge is the new one.
Buying and killing small companies and studios, such as Rare, a bit like EA had done
Moving away from some of the nice things earlier Windows versions did, like a start menu with a neat list of organized and searchable programs.
Having just 1 UI experience that isn't super customizable and breaking 3rd party UIs.
Fullscreen popups and nonsense over nothing
Microsoft's anti-competitive behavior has been a factor most of my life. They still push the boundaries of anti-competitive behavior to the Nth's degree. Again, that reading on Embrace-Extend-Extinguish will give you a taste of their BS.
Having fewer features and techs than Linux that I like to use, such as specialty filesystems, IO schedulers, process schedulers, swapping systems (ZRAM/ZSWAP) etc. Being stuck on NTFS (are you kidding me?) REFS is too little too late and you can't even boot off it
Way worse IO/Disk performance and features
inferior memory management
Overall, I don't want to do business or help in the success in an organization I do not like by offering up my data, watching their ads, and using their products less than necessary. I like some of the things Bill Gates has done, but it doesn't change any of my views on this.
This is a weird response to one comment on a specific thing.
Youāre essentially saying āyeah well that might be fixed but hereās a bunch of unrelated things you didnāt talk about that I donāt like.ā
ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
I felt like clarifying that the updates issues I faced were the last straw and that if anyone was interested, I listed the other reasons I quit working with them and never looked back. That's why I wrote all that at the bottom.
Even if Microsoft does some things right, they still have a history of doing things wrong and have a bevy of other dark patterns. I do not trust them to get it right anymore. They could go back to their old ways tomorrow and I wouldn't be surprised. Thankfully, it's not my problem except at work
Win 11 Pro user here. It doesn't care what time you set for updates, it'll do them when it feels like anyway, or annoy the piss out of you with notifications.
Annoy you with notifications, yes. But if itās restarting outside the window set, youāve likely messed something up.
It might be that I don't leave the PC on all the time, I just hit sleep. But still, it shouldn't strong arm me into updating after a day or two of the download. Also hate having to RegEdit Edge off the thing after each one.
yeah but even if you need a reboot, linux just needs a regular reboot.
not that long ass 25-minute windows update reboot
I frequently reboot, so for me, something like SteamOSās a/b atomic update process would be ideal: no instability, no forced reboot.
Windows doesn't force you to do anything. You can reboot or not reboot, or skip updates altogether.
Windows lets you pause updates for some time, maybe a week or so, after that you're going to take them whether you like it or not. Granted, you had a week or so to prepare, so it's ok to some extent, but don't tell me Windows doesn't force you...
No, you can disable them completely through local group policy. Windows doesn't force you to do anything.
Hmm, good to know, I'll have to try, just out of curiosity. Is that available on Windows Home or just Pro? Anyways, it's not something that many people would easily figure out, so for most non-technical people they effectively cannot disable them.
It is available in all versions, but there's no UI in Home Edition, you have to modify registry by hand.
As for non-technical people, these are the people who should be forces into updates.
you still need to reboot your linux machine or relogin if you updated a process that's currently running (and in most cases most system processes can't be just restarted)
(...and otherwise you'll just stay at the old version bit with new data which might cause some instability)
yes, there's kernel hot-patching but it only affects the kernel, only viable for minor and security upgrades, does not come pre-configured on most consumer distros and not really suitable for home use.
And you're saying, you expect Microsoft to come up with something better?
So you mean they want windows to have something that Linux has had for 20 years? Android has also had this since ~2017 too.
My android phone and Linux computers all still want reboots after updates...
Linux only needs a reboot if you want to update the kernel, normally.
but in that case you can often kexec to restart linux faster, skipping the actual BIOS/UEFI boot.
also, some distros offer live patching of kernel code for $$$
You don't need to pay money for live patching.
They really just make you pay for having them do it for you.
I think you forgot to mention what distro you are running.
PotatOS btw.
Eh, it depends. Other low-level things (systemd, glibc, etc) need a reboot too.
Technically, but it's safer to reboot nonetheless: https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/
"Colonel updates require a reboot, but just normal application updates do not. And most system updates do not. I partly misspoke about Android. I should have been more clear because I was referring to the A/B partition scheme, but yeah, to run the new system does require rebooting.
*Kernel
Colonel Kernel
It was the British spelling.
š As a Canuck, we use both. But the computer term is definitely Kernel. Unless we're marching out on a battlefield....
Seven bugs and crashes
KERNAL
I love linux and been using it for decades, personally and professionally, but no, linux doesn't have "hot patching" the same way as that article describes it. At most it can live patch the kernel (and only few distros actually use that), but definitely not for the last 20 years, and definitely not running processes. However, it does usually restart background processes after an update without requiring a reboot, but in my experience, often times the system becomes unstable after several such updates and rebooting is effectively necessary (though not forced, and that's why I like it).
Yeah, the security in knowing that if you're way top busy right now, you don't have to install or even download any updates. And you don't have to worry your system will suddenly become crashy, glitchy, and unstable because it decided on its own to install some things and let you know you can reboot whenever.
It's so freaking annoying I have to use Windows at work. It takes liberty to do what it wants and then my workflow gets hosed.
I get that there is security, but if you force updates, I should have some kind of notice or "hey, we need to install mandatory updates. You can schedule in the next 24 hours when or you can get them over with"
For the home user, this is a giant PITA for which I wholly blame MS.
For business machines, I lump the company IT in with MS, because there are Policies for this stuff they should be managing.
I say this as an IT person responsible for things like this. The first rule is don't fuck with user machines during business hours, the second is to allow them to postpone stuff as needed.
Can only imagine getting an update, then a reboot, while I'm on an outage call trying to get a critical system back up. And hoping my laptop comes back up and my VPN still works.
Canāt say Iāve experienced forced reboots on either my home or work PC; I always have gotten an option.
Do you have to ignore updates for a while until theyāre forced? Iām pretty quick with updating when Iām notified- typically that evening when Iām done with the computer.
Iāve been building my own windows PCs since 99, using every main version of consumer Windows except ME. Never been forced while in the middle of something.
With Win10 and later (I honestly don't remember with Win 8), by default updates happen in the background, and will be applied and a reboot scheduled.
It won't necessarily force a reboot, but it can reboot when you're not there. I've had updates with reboot happen when I was away for 30 minutes, on a machine I was setting up and hadn't yet configured policies.
The updates quietly happening in the background are still a problem because they can't be paused or canceled and they use a lot of sysrme resources to get done. And when they're complete, your experience is less stable till the reboot.
I usually notice them when my work computer slows down and things start having more bugs than usual. My work computer has very respectable specs
I agree, but this echo chamber doesnāt accept such alternate realities.
Security? HA! If business realized they could eliminate 85-95% of their attack vectors by getting rid of Windows, weād all be better off.
They wonāt, though. Realize it.
Edit: Oh i see, you meant security patches. Yes, true. I stand by my hinged rant though.
Current versions of windows literally let you set an update reboot window. So set up the times you use it, and then forget about it and let it install whenever it wants.
I honestly, and sincerely, do not understand all the hate Windows gets with current updates. The alternative at the moment is āhope the user remembers to updateā which we have seen in action and which does not work.
Is it annoying when you donāt set things up properly? Sure! But thatās a failing on the users side.
Iāve been using Windows for decades, and the last time I had it unexpectedly reboot for an update was years ago. Because Iāve actually taken the 10 minutes to understand the system, and how to configure it to do what I want.
I haven't used Windows 11 interestingly, so I don't know if they've changed their update habits, and I wouldn't be surprised either way. Windows 10 is the last edition I've used. Since Windows 8, I had plenty of issues with Windows and Microsoft, and it got worse every release. I'll bullet-form my personal complaints at the bottom of this page.
My final straw for Windows 10 in my personal life was a forced restart, and I had all my update settings where I wanted them, and still, I lost a really important session to that reboot. Since I was pretty comfy with Linux, I went that direction. Since then, Linux has gotten more user-friendly and plays videogames, way more than Mac. It's still not something I recommend to most people, but probably someday, it'll get to a Mac or Windows ease of use.
At work, most of us haven't been migrated to Windows 11 from Windows 10, and I still get updates installing in the background a lot, causing issues even on our Windows servers. I'm sure our ops team can tune these abhorrent update defaults, but it's just a frustrating experience nonetheless.
I think a prompt or reminder could go really far to let the user configure that during setup.
Here are some of my complaints over time:
Overall, I don't want to do business or help in the success in an organization I do not like by offering up my data, watching their ads, and using their products less than necessary. I like some of the things Bill Gates has done, but it doesn't change any of my views on this.
This is a weird response to one comment on a specific thing.
Youāre essentially saying āyeah well that might be fixed but hereās a bunch of unrelated things you didnāt talk about that I donāt like.ā
ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
I felt like clarifying that the updates issues I faced were the last straw and that if anyone was interested, I listed the other reasons I quit working with them and never looked back. That's why I wrote all that at the bottom.
Even if Microsoft does some things right, they still have a history of doing things wrong and have a bevy of other dark patterns. I do not trust them to get it right anymore. They could go back to their old ways tomorrow and I wouldn't be surprised. Thankfully, it's not my problem except at work
Win 11 Pro user here. It doesn't care what time you set for updates, it'll do them when it feels like anyway, or annoy the piss out of you with notifications.
Annoy you with notifications, yes. But if itās restarting outside the window set, youāve likely messed something up.
It might be that I don't leave the PC on all the time, I just hit sleep. But still, it shouldn't strong arm me into updating after a day or two of the download. Also hate having to RegEdit Edge off the thing after each one.
yeah but even if you need a reboot, linux just needs a regular reboot.
not that long ass 25-minute windows update reboot
I frequently reboot, so for me, something like SteamOSās a/b atomic update process would be ideal: no instability, no forced reboot.
Windows doesn't force you to do anything. You can reboot or not reboot, or skip updates altogether.
Windows lets you pause updates for some time, maybe a week or so, after that you're going to take them whether you like it or not. Granted, you had a week or so to prepare, so it's ok to some extent, but don't tell me Windows doesn't force you...
No, you can disable them completely through local group policy. Windows doesn't force you to do anything.
Hmm, good to know, I'll have to try, just out of curiosity. Is that available on Windows Home or just Pro? Anyways, it's not something that many people would easily figure out, so for most non-technical people they effectively cannot disable them.
It is available in all versions, but there's no UI in Home Edition, you have to modify registry by hand.
As for non-technical people, these are the people who should be forces into updates.
P.S. The how to is available directly from MS knowledgebase https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/1351413/how-do-you-turn-off-windows-10-updates-which-are-r
you still need to reboot your linux machine or relogin if you updated a process that's currently running (and in most cases most system processes can't be just restarted) (...and otherwise you'll just stay at the old version bit with new data which might cause some instability)
yes, there's kernel hot-patching but it only affects the kernel, only viable for minor and security upgrades, does not come pre-configured on most consumer distros and not really suitable for home use.
And you're saying, you expect Microsoft to come up with something better?