Honestly, the real question to me is how many innocent people were maimed, injured, or killed in this attack.
Quite a bit fewer than 0.1% of the individual detonations appear to have harmed anyone except the Hezbollah operative assigned to the pager, so this doesn’t actually appear to be a question. The attack was extremely discriminate and targeted.
but if they're in a cafe they're not the only ones getting hurt.
In every case in which one of these went off in a cafe, the intended target was the only one hurt.
That's the true crime, the potentially disproportionate massacre of innocent civilians.
But that isn’t what happened. The opposite happened.
Several of the victims were children. They went off in crowds. There was no way they could control that many devices with precision when they set them off all at once like that.
Here’s an example of how targeted the strike was, despite literally going off in a crowd - nobody hurt but the intended target, no harm whatsoever beyond two feet. Doesn’t even bruise an apple
That particular pager was in a bag, against a person, pointed away from anyone or anything else. Not to mention anything of the second attack, which used much larger charges and started fires and blew out windows across Lebanon.
And anyway, a single example isn't going to assuage anyone who has been reading reports of women and children dying from the attack.
They're also ignoring the literal terror being experienced by civilians who witnessed people's legs and faces being blown off in public.
That's terrorism.
That particular pager was in a bag, against a person, pointed away from anyone or anything else.
Where else would you carry a pager? You have to feel it when it vibrates.
Not to mention anything of the second attack, which used much larger charges and started fires and blew out windows across Lebanon.
Well, I’m sorry to hear that Lebanon’s glazers just got several months of guaranteed work, I guess, but I’m otherwise not sure why this is relevant.
And anyway, a single example isn't going to assuage anyone who has been reading reports of women and children dying from the attack.
What reports?
I’m otherwise not sure why this is relevant.
Because you were claiming the explosions were too small to "bruise and apple"
Because you were claiming the explosions were too small to "bruise and apple"
ok, and how is that refuted by the physical description of an ambulance?
What the fuck are you smoking
You posted a description of an ambulance, down to the color of its lights and the presence of people standing nearby looking on.
What was the relevance of that?
The mental gymnastics people will do to defend literal state sponsored terrorism.
And don't waste your time, I actually know what those words mean.
Yes, it’s pretty shocking how people have come out in support of an Iranian-funded terrorist group that has killed women, children, and a hundred Americans
Oh look, it is time for round two: Strawman Boogaloo.
As opposed to the American-funded terrorist state that has killed women, children and a couple thousands of Palestinian civilians?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Try harder.
Several of the victims were children.
The fathers of these dead children will simply have to live with the terrible consequences of their involvement with antisemitic terror (who are we kidding, they don’t care.)
They went off in crowds.
In every such case only the agent was harmed. You’re proving how targeted the attack was.
The fathers of these dead children will simply have to live with the terrible consequences of their involvement with antisemitic terror
So the children have to pay for their father's crimes? This isn't really a justification, and they don't not care, now they have a real reason for retaliation—starting the cycle of hate all over again.
So the children have to pay for their father's crimes?
No, they don’t have to. But they will when their fathers deliberately put them in danger.
Again, he’ll just have to live with the tragic consequences (just kidding, we know he doesn’t care.)
And you complain about pro Israel accounts getting banned. Literally justifying the murder of children should be banable no matter what county you're supporting. Despicable behavior that everyone now sadly expects from rabid genocide supporters.
The kid's blood is still on whoever triggered the devices hands. The child didn't do anything.
Do you have a source stating that no bystanders were harmed? I can't find anything making that claim.
Do you have a source stating that no bystanders were harmed?
They keep citing a tweet while others keep refuting what they're saying with articles from BBC, NPR, and other news outlets. There's no point in arguing with someone that can't provide reputable sources for their claims.
Hezbollah publicly announces their war casualties so they’re the source
I don’t know how to explain that any more clearly. If you’re still puzzled, I recommend asking a question instead of posting a single word
They are asking for the source of your statement that less then 0.1% of the victims where valid targets. Since most have seen evidence to the exact opposite of that statement.
Oh and although I can put links to back that statement up, I will not. (Since that is the presiding fashion here apparently)
They are asking for the source of your statement that less then 0.1% of the victims where valid targets
Hezbollah is the source. That’s three times I’ve said so. What about that is still unclear?
When asked for a source, you're asked to link to a specific statement or report. If you just say who is your source without providing a link, it looks like not only do you don't have any, but that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about.
It's extremely damaging to your side, no matter where the truth is.
When asked for a source, you're asked to link to a specific statement or report.
Sounds like a real pain in the ass, and a bad-faith way to move a great deal of burden to someone you’d like to shut up. I told you what the source was; why don’t you do your own fucking homework?
The same Hezbollah that claim this was an "act of war" and in nothing I can find give any indication of non Hezbollah casualties? Once again I can link the translated statement from Hezbollah to support this, but since you for some reason will not neither will I.
Oh and to show this is not a lack of effort by myself here is a link to the information on Vitamin D toxicity
Your argumentation genuinely made me lol, thanks for that. I especially enjoyed the vitamin d article substitution
The same Hezbollah that claim this was an "act of war" and in nothing I can find give any indication of non Hezbollah casualties?
Why would Hezbollah report non-Hezbollah casualties? They’re not the government of Lebanon.
You wrote that fewer than .1% of casualties from the detonations were not hezbollah. When asked for a source you wrote: hezbollah. When pressed for a source you've now countered: "why would hezbollah report that?".
We don't know; it's your premise. Where did you get that stat?
I’m assuming that, out of the total reported casualties, the ones Hezbollah doesn’t claim are the civilians. Can you explain your issue with that reasoning?
I’ll grant that there may be Hezbollah casualties that Hezbollah won’t publicly claim, but that would strengthen my case, not yours.
No sources, eh? Let me help: At least 12 civilians were killed and 2800 people injured by pager bombs. Hezbollah reported 11 members died that day.
Can you explain why you are making up stats with no source?
For propaganda, they reported the girl dying right away
Yes, and that would be why we are wondering how that would be proof of a lack of non-Hezbollah casualties.
Well, if you subtract the Hezbollah casualties from the total casualties, there’s hardly any casualties left.
Are you asking for a source for arithmetic, or something?
Oh good thing you told us where that info was then. Its not like the numbers of victims are still unknown or unaccounted for. Its also great that you provided all that evidence of "guilt" for everyone injured.
en. Its not like the numbers of victims are still unknown or unaccounted for.
How many are those? Why would there be any unaccounted victims at all?
Looks like murders of innocent civilians were done by semites... As it's most often the case.
A collateral civilian death during a military action has never been considered “murder.” It can’t be, since it’s unintentional.
Just completely ignore the concept of proportional response and the Principle of Proportionality.
If you're going to pretend to be an expert on international law...
1000 militants per civilian meets every definition of proportionate
In Gaza? Yeah, no. The reply was in response to OP and my reply was to that reply. We are talking about Gaza here.
1.3 civilians per militant also meets the definition of proportionate; during the US action in Fallujah it was 7:1 and the ICJ had no issue with that at all.
Urban combat is destructive for the people who live there; they should simply have not started a war on Oct 7th.
There has been quite a lot of collateral civilian casualties, how many more people must die and how many more people must suffer under poverty in the name of the great American empire?
There has been quite a lot of collateral civilian casualties, how many more people must die
None, if Israel’s enemies surrender and end the war. That’s how war works.
Do you genuinely think thats how the world work? Not Israel nor the Israeli people will ever know peace as long as Israel exists as an extension of the American Empire. If all of Israels enemies surrender then the American Empire will simply create new enemies for them to fight in their perpetual endless war.
Not Israel nor the Israeli people will ever know peace as long as Israel exists as an extension of the American Empire.
We’ll know peace because everyone like you, everyone who won’t accept a Jewish state in the Middle East, will fight until you die. And you’ll lose.
Peace comes at the end of war.
Have you forgotten that Iran was once an Israeli ally, or that Israel once held Lebanon as a puppet? Throughout history Israel has backstabbed allies and continuously made its own enemies. Hamas was made in large part due to Israel interference in Gazas politics as was the PLO. Peace was never the goal of Israel, it was always conflict. Whenever the knesset members protest the war theyre called traitors and even beaten up. How many people must die for your dream of a so called Jewish state and for whom would the state truly be for. We can tell by the rise of Kahanism to that the Jewish state is clearly not for all Jews.
Have you forgotten that Iran was once an Israeli ally, or that Israel once held Lebanon as a puppet?
When did Israel “hold” Lebanon?
Hamas was made in large part due to Israel interference in Gazas politics as was the PLO.
Were either Hamas or the PLO allies of Israel? If the PLO was the ally of Israel then why did they kill the entire Israeli Olympics team in Munich?
Peace was never the goal of Israel
Peace has always been the goal of Israel. The elimination of all Jews has always been the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas and they’ll die for it.
Before Hezbollah Israeli money was constantly being pumped into Lebanon. Also once again you're missing my point, both Hamas and Hezbollah were created to be enemies. Im addition you're still ignorent to the economics of war and foreign interests. It matters not what Israel wants when its nothing but an extension of the American Empire.
Before Hezbollah Israeli money was constantly being pumped into Lebanon.
You said “hold”, like they were in control of the place.
Now you’re just saying they invested there.
Also once again you're missing my point, both Hamas and Hezbollah were created to be enemies.
But your point is wrong - they were created to be allies. Allies of Iran, which is who created them. That’s why Hezbollah promotes Shia Islam in Lebanon.
Im addition you're still ignorent to the economics of war and foreign interests.
Waving terms like “war economics” and “foreign interests” without meaning anything by them doesn’t help your argument; Iran faces the same incentives for war against Israel that anyone else would.
It matters not what Israel wants when its nothing but an extension of the American Empire.
If Israel is nothing but an American vassal state, the vanguard of our imperial ambitions in the Middle East (lol, who cares about that shithole desert) then why have we placed Israel under arms embargo literally every time they’ve been attacked by Arabs?
Quite a bit fewer than 0.1% of the individual detonations appear to have harmed anyone except the Hezbollah operative assigned to the pager, so this doesn’t actually appear to be a question. The attack was extremely discriminate and targeted.
In every case in which one of these went off in a cafe, the intended target was the only one hurt.
But that isn’t what happened. The opposite happened.
Several of the victims were children. They went off in crowds. There was no way they could control that many devices with precision when they set them off all at once like that.
At least it was somewhat targeted, unlike Gaza.
https://x.com/osint613/status/1837614316335648888?s=46
Here’s an example of how targeted the strike was, despite literally going off in a crowd - nobody hurt but the intended target, no harm whatsoever beyond two feet. Doesn’t even bruise an apple
That particular pager was in a bag, against a person, pointed away from anyone or anything else. Not to mention anything of the second attack, which used much larger charges and started fires and blew out windows across Lebanon.
And anyway, a single example isn't going to assuage anyone who has been reading reports of women and children dying from the attack.
They're also ignoring the literal terror being experienced by civilians who witnessed people's legs and faces being blown off in public.
That's terrorism.
Where else would you carry a pager? You have to feel it when it vibrates.
Well, I’m sorry to hear that Lebanon’s glazers just got several months of guaranteed work, I guess, but I’m otherwise not sure why this is relevant.
What reports?
Because you were claiming the explosions were too small to "bruise and apple"
Literally any reports on the subject
ok, and how is that refuted by the physical description of an ambulance?
What the fuck are you smoking
You posted a description of an ambulance, down to the color of its lights and the presence of people standing nearby looking on.
What was the relevance of that?
The mental gymnastics people will do to defend literal state sponsored terrorism.
And don't waste your time, I actually know what those words mean.
Yes, it’s pretty shocking how people have come out in support of an Iranian-funded terrorist group that has killed women, children, and a hundred Americans
Oh look, it is time for round two: Strawman Boogaloo.
As opposed to the American-funded terrorist state that has killed women, children and a couple thousands of Palestinian civilians?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Try harder.
The fathers of these dead children will simply have to live with the terrible consequences of their involvement with antisemitic terror (who are we kidding, they don’t care.)
In every such case only the agent was harmed. You’re proving how targeted the attack was.
So the children have to pay for their father's crimes? This isn't really a justification, and they don't not care, now they have a real reason for retaliation—starting the cycle of hate all over again.
No, they don’t have to. But they will when their fathers deliberately put them in danger.
Again, he’ll just have to live with the tragic consequences (just kidding, we know he doesn’t care.)
And you complain about pro Israel accounts getting banned. Literally justifying the murder of children should be banable no matter what county you're supporting. Despicable behavior that everyone now sadly expects from rabid genocide supporters.
The kid's blood is still on whoever triggered the devices hands. The child didn't do anything.
Do you have a source stating that no bystanders were harmed? I can't find anything making that claim.
They keep citing a tweet while others keep refuting what they're saying with articles from BBC, NPR, and other news outlets. There's no point in arguing with someone that can't provide reputable sources for their claims.
*Edit: typo
But they have a video of a single incident!
Says who?
Says Hezbollah, and all reporting from Lebanon.
Source? Not being shitty but serious
Hezbollah publicly announces their war casualties so they’re the source
I don’t know how to explain that any more clearly. If you’re still puzzled, I recommend asking a question instead of posting a single word
They are asking for the source of your statement that less then 0.1% of the victims where valid targets. Since most have seen evidence to the exact opposite of that statement.
Oh and although I can put links to back that statement up, I will not. (Since that is the presiding fashion here apparently)
Hezbollah is the source. That’s three times I’ve said so. What about that is still unclear?
When asked for a source, you're asked to link to a specific statement or report. If you just say who is your source without providing a link, it looks like not only do you don't have any, but that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about.
It's extremely damaging to your side, no matter where the truth is.
Sounds like a real pain in the ass, and a bad-faith way to move a great deal of burden to someone you’d like to shut up. I told you what the source was; why don’t you do your own fucking homework?
The same Hezbollah that claim this was an "act of war" and in nothing I can find give any indication of non Hezbollah casualties? Once again I can link the translated statement from Hezbollah to support this, but since you for some reason will not neither will I.
Oh and to show this is not a lack of effort by myself here is a link to the information on Vitamin D toxicity
Your argumentation genuinely made me lol, thanks for that. I especially enjoyed the vitamin d article substitution
Why would Hezbollah report non-Hezbollah casualties? They’re not the government of Lebanon.
You wrote that fewer than .1% of casualties from the detonations were not hezbollah. When asked for a source you wrote: hezbollah. When pressed for a source you've now countered: "why would hezbollah report that?".
We don't know; it's your premise. Where did you get that stat?
I’m assuming that, out of the total reported casualties, the ones Hezbollah doesn’t claim are the civilians. Can you explain your issue with that reasoning?
I’ll grant that there may be Hezbollah casualties that Hezbollah won’t publicly claim, but that would strengthen my case, not yours.
No sources, eh? Let me help: At least 12 civilians were killed and 2800 people injured by pager bombs. Hezbollah reported 11 members died that day.
Can you explain why you are making up stats with no source?
https://abcnews.go.com/International/hezbollah-vows-reckoning-after-thousands-lebanon-injured-exploding/story?id=113798347
Didn't you say they were the ones who reported your non-Hezbollah casualty figure though?
You could just link to what you're talking about, that might clear up any confusion.
I don’t have any “non-Hezbollah casualty figures.” I’m assuming that any casualties Hezbollah doesn’t claim are the civilians.
I’m still not understand what you’re finding unclear.
You've not sourced your 0.1% figure. Safe to assume there is none.
The source is Hezbollah. As I’ve told you.
For propaganda, they reported the girl dying right away
Yes, and that would be why we are wondering how that would be proof of a lack of non-Hezbollah casualties.
Well, if you subtract the Hezbollah casualties from the total casualties, there’s hardly any casualties left.
Are you asking for a source for arithmetic, or something?
Oh good thing you told us where that info was then. Its not like the numbers of victims are still unknown or unaccounted for. Its also great that you provided all that evidence of "guilt" for everyone injured.
How many are those? Why would there be any unaccounted victims at all?
Ok, I'm sure it's all as you say. 5 days old account that is totally not suspicious.
Defending Israel on Lenny leads to banning, it’s happened several times
lol good
All numbers to you eh?
I can’t have sympathy for murderous antisemites
Not murder, by your logic.
https://a.lemmy.world/lemmy.world/comment/12495954
They’ve targeted civilians, including 40 people at a US Embassy.
Both sides have.
Looks like murders of innocent civilians were done by semites... As it's most often the case.
A collateral civilian death during a military action has never been considered “murder.” It can’t be, since it’s unintentional.
Just completely ignore the concept of proportional response and the Principle of Proportionality.
If you're going to pretend to be an expert on international law...
1000 militants per civilian meets every definition of proportionate
In Gaza? Yeah, no. The reply was in response to OP and my reply was to that reply. We are talking about Gaza here.
1.3 civilians per militant also meets the definition of proportionate; during the US action in Fallujah it was 7:1 and the ICJ had no issue with that at all.
Urban combat is destructive for the people who live there; they should simply have not started a war on Oct 7th.
There has been quite a lot of collateral civilian casualties, how many more people must die and how many more people must suffer under poverty in the name of the great American empire?
None, if Israel’s enemies surrender and end the war. That’s how war works.
Do you genuinely think thats how the world work? Not Israel nor the Israeli people will ever know peace as long as Israel exists as an extension of the American Empire. If all of Israels enemies surrender then the American Empire will simply create new enemies for them to fight in their perpetual endless war.
We’ll know peace because everyone like you, everyone who won’t accept a Jewish state in the Middle East, will fight until you die. And you’ll lose.
Peace comes at the end of war.
Have you forgotten that Iran was once an Israeli ally, or that Israel once held Lebanon as a puppet? Throughout history Israel has backstabbed allies and continuously made its own enemies. Hamas was made in large part due to Israel interference in Gazas politics as was the PLO. Peace was never the goal of Israel, it was always conflict. Whenever the knesset members protest the war theyre called traitors and even beaten up. How many people must die for your dream of a so called Jewish state and for whom would the state truly be for. We can tell by the rise of Kahanism to that the Jewish state is clearly not for all Jews.
When did Israel “hold” Lebanon?
Were either Hamas or the PLO allies of Israel? If the PLO was the ally of Israel then why did they kill the entire Israeli Olympics team in Munich?
Peace has always been the goal of Israel. The elimination of all Jews has always been the goal of Hezbollah and Hamas and they’ll die for it.
Before Hezbollah Israeli money was constantly being pumped into Lebanon. Also once again you're missing my point, both Hamas and Hezbollah were created to be enemies. Im addition you're still ignorent to the economics of war and foreign interests. It matters not what Israel wants when its nothing but an extension of the American Empire.
You said “hold”, like they were in control of the place.
Now you’re just saying they invested there.
But your point is wrong - they were created to be allies. Allies of Iran, which is who created them. That’s why Hezbollah promotes Shia Islam in Lebanon.
Waving terms like “war economics” and “foreign interests” without meaning anything by them doesn’t help your argument; Iran faces the same incentives for war against Israel that anyone else would.
If Israel is nothing but an American vassal state, the vanguard of our imperial ambitions in the Middle East (lol, who cares about that shithole desert) then why have we placed Israel under arms embargo literally every time they’ve been attacked by Arabs?