They really should disaggregate recalls fixed with OTA updates from recalls that need a physical intervention.
Obviously Teslas almost always need an OTA update
100%, this number is skewed by the fact that tesla will basically "recall" for any minor issue because it's a simple software update, I imagine a lot of companies try to avoid recalls as aggressively and for as long as possible because it's a significantly bigger burden on them
I say this as someone who drives a Tesla but is still extremely judgemental of Tesla
As everyone who watched Fight Club knows, it’s a simple calculation. If the costs of the recall exceed the cost for the expected lawsuits, they don’t do it.
An OTA update has essentially zero cost, so it’s even easier.
Agreed. The concept of judging vehicle quality by number of recalls is severely flawed for this very reason. My Subaru Impreza has had a number of recalls for a variety of trivial things, but I’ve had only one actual issue with it in 65k miles and have spent relatively little on maintenance. Comparing that to the Audi A4 I had before this car which required maybe one recall in similar mileage but I was constantly fixing major items from leaks, broken drive related components, etc.
Neither had any motor related issues so far, aside from burning oil in the Audi. But by number of recalls? That Audi was great! But they also had a number of lawsuits filed in attempt to get them to actually recall the multitude of problems. The one that it actually had was the result of them losing such a suit, but so many years later it really didn’t matter.
So yeah, terrible metric to track. At this point, I’d rather see that the company has a dozen recalls on their vehicles than zero.
Edit: I should clarify. That being said, I do believe Toyota actually makes a solid car the first time. Boring, but quality is a huge focus for them. I’m still hesitant to trust recall counts though and I don’t think I’d trust Mercedes number as a valid quality metric.
that last edit you added is probably the worst part, because it takes away from how solid Toyota and others are because it ruins the entire metric, Toyota is likely crushing it, and entirely possible Tesla is actually really really bad, but without the RIGHT metrics we can't actually draw any good conclusions, it's not just bad for tesla but for the whole market
It should also be pointed out that the numbers in the articles are just projections covering the next 30 years.
I don't know their methodology but I'm curious if they just took the current age and recall number and multiplied it out to 30 years. I don't think this would be a fair assessment because a car would likely have all the kinks worked out long before it hits 30. Furthermore, I find it odd they projected out 30 years when the average age of a car on the road is 12.5 years.
They shouldn't, because a LOT of those software updates were safety related.
Agreed. Although we would still need a measure the severity of these issues. An OTA update is more convenient than a physical recall, but it doesn't change that the car drove with those issues until the problem was discovered and fixed.
So the more important question is whether the underlying problem was something trivial like a minor comfort feature not working as intended or something affecting the safety of the car.
No they shouldn't. since not every OTA update gets a recall. Only safety related issues cause recalls. What OTA recall means is software or algorhitm related to the drive train, driving or related systems had a safety related issue.
It is normal, that now that there is more software control, there is more software related recalls. The point isn't to track how many times the car went to shop to be worked on. The point is to track how many times and how severe safety related issues there is. Just because the solution was simple to end user OTA update doesn't mean the underlying safety issue wasn't severe.
Before you had to go to garage to fix sticking accelerator cable. Now you have to update the power delivery mapping algorhitm, since it had a bug qnd didn't properly cut the torque from the motor on accelerator lift. Both are uncommanded acceleration application issues. Equally severe and very serious safety issues. One just needs physical work, other software fixing.
That they have to update the software so often regarding safety says to me their safety verification procedure isn't robust.
Also not like Tesla is the only one. Others also have had to update their software for bugs or ill behavior. Just not as often. I would hazard due to more conservative software updating.
Bunch of the recalls for Tesla have been caused by them updating software, introducing a bug and then having to pretty soon after safety recall for the update fixing that bug. If they had scrutineered the software more closely, they would have avoided the safety recall. Since the deployed software would be bug free on the first deployment.
Remember on modern EV, single bug in control software can send front and rear tires spinning in opposite directions. On 4 motor torque vectoring the software can send the car into uncontrolled tank spin with one side pulling forward and other backward.
The simple truth is the driveline control software is safety critical component of modern car and thus should absolutely earn safety notices on having problems. Mind you recall is archaic name for safety notice, but that is the name in legislations and use. On many other fields also there is archaic legacy terms in use and people learn to deal with it.
Doesn't OTA fixes by definition mean no recall?
No, they are for some reasons called recalls. Didn’t Tesla recall their entire fleet this spring? It was solved by OTA updates.
Why recall them if the issue can be taken care of over the air? That IS what OTA stands for, right?
Legally they have to "declare" a recall, even when they can fix it with a couple of lines of code and an OTA. Recall doesn't mean what you would expect it to me, it means "something the manufacturer needs to fix for safety reasons".
Hence why 98% of Tesla recalls are OTA (not actual stat, I'd have to look it up but it's definitely in the 90s)
That's just misleading then. Should really change that to match reality.
I don’t know if it’s maybe a judicial thing or something or if they are technically required to do an official recall registered in some system, even if they can actually solve it OTA.
I would suspect the rules around required recalls are not really updated to reflect the extended amount of issues that a vertical system integrator like Tesla can solve OTA.
Ah, it's one of those cases where de jure isn't the same reality as de facto and the hack journalist pretends otherwise? Gotcha.
I'm officially joining team "fuck Musk and his shoddily built rolling ipads, but that's bullshit bordering on journalistic malpractice", I guess 🤷
I don’t have any agenda, I just tried answering your question.
I'm not complaining about you, I appreciate your answer and am sorry about the confusion lol
I was complaining about the law and whomever made the statistics and wrote the article pretending that completely different things are the same, didn't mean to shoot the messenger!
Recall, an official recall, is a safety issue notice really. Its a legally defined thing in motor vehicle code. If manufacturer finds a defect, issue or feature affecting driving safety they have to notify safety authorities and get a recall issued. It doesn't have to have anything to do with, whether the product goes back to service garage or not.
Important point: Not every Tesla OTA update triggers a NHTSA (or other national road safety agency) official recall. Tesla has updated their cars plenty without recall notice. Only safety related issues get recall issued along with the OTA update.
Thus it is meaningfully, that they have so many software related (and thus OTA fixed) safety recalls. Each of those times is Hey, NHTSA, gonna have to admit, our software has a safety oopsie on it. Here is the paperwork, could you please issue us the official recall campaign number. Yeah software team already developed fix for it, it's all in the paperwork. We issue recall notice for drivers to check for the OTA to have gone through properly, that is all they need to do.
No maker wants to have safety recalls. It's bad PR. Makers have been fined plenty times for failing to properly inform agencies. One of the most famous is the Takata airbags. Where Takata got fined millions by first knowing and not telling their airbags had extra spicy unstable propellant exploding way too violently. Plus after firstly admitting to it lying to for example NHTSA about the vast extend of the problem.
So it matters, that even on "just a software issue" recalls are issued. The main point is public is properly informed. Lot of time it's resolved without great calamity. However this was exactly the lesson learned. Don't let makers hide issued, make them admit immediately so public knows and can take appropriate mitigation, before someone gets hurt. Also makes makers fix things quickly. Otherwise other priorities might override, since What they don't know can't hurt our reputation, like this is marginal issue. We can take little more time with this. Oh it takes 6 months to design fix with that small team. No worries. After all, no one knows. We have time. Except during that slow roll someone bumps into that "marginal issue" and gets hurt. Having to publicly admit immediately puts fire under their hind quarters. "Whole design department, stop what you are doing. We have safety recall issue. It went just public. Everyday company sits without being able to say No worries, we have solution we take flack. This is now priority number 1. This must be resolved yesterday, says the company board. Whatever parts or equipment you need, order it. Whomever you need to call, call them."
It's also worth, I think, pointing out that, for example, Lincoln has the 6th (I think) most recalled model as well as (again, I think) the second to least recalled model. So it shows that, in a lot of cases, it really depends on the model of the car rather than the manufacturer.
Except Tesla. 100% of Teslas current lineup is in the top 5.
I am still waiting for a day of no frills EVs or just more no frills cars in general. Less crap in the way to repair and whatnot. But all I see passing car lots are bigger vehicles that look like they have so much stuff in them.
We need like a Kirkland brand EV. Unless I am an idiot and people don't want stuff like that.
I love the tech in my car. The adaptive cruise control, heads up display, android auto, auto wipers, auto brights, lane keep assist, and blind spot detection in my Mazda are all used every single time I drive. Understand why people wouldn't want some of those things but I love it.
The tech is great, but for a lot of people it's not worth thousands of dollars -- especially when you run the (potentially small) risk of paying twice if it breaks outside of warranty.
They do it to disguise the cost. When the first leaf came out the battery was the majority of the cost of the car.. everything that was added on to make it a 'car' was cheap by comparison. So they added frills to get people to pay that much.. and it worked.
Even now, when batteries are considerably cleaner, they're a decent part of the cost - everyone wants a car that can do 300 miles.. that dictates a certain size and weight (given current energy densities) and the companies have to build a car around that.
Effectively if you made a kirkland car with few features it'd cost almost as much as the current EV crop and nobody would buy one to the lack of features. About cheapest so far is the MG ZS, and that's a £30k car. The £15-20k runabout that everyone wants just isn't feasable without compromising range beyond what most would accept.
I bought my first ev 8 months ago. 13k miles already and no maintenance cost yet. Absolutely love it and find any excuses to drive it.
I drove a gas guzzling 350hp coupe before jumping to a EV. I had my doubts but I'm glad I made the switch. It'll be awhile until we get a Costco like vehicle (my bet is Toyota or Hyundai will come out with something huge).
My commute is 70 miles a day and it's a blast. I drive it on weekends just because it's fun. I don't have any frills on it, just a screen I look at once in a while.5
What kind of EV?
Tesla model 3 performance. I know it gets shit on a lot for some reason but using it as a daily driver, it's the best car I ever had.
M3 here, the autopilot features are incredible, highway driving just fades away.
Definitely worth it, can barely drive my suv now.
Toyotas EV is like that. ID4 is fairly basic. Chevy Bolt.
The BZ4X that was recalled because the wheels fall off ? Has that been rereleased yet ?
Apparently it has been rereleased. Still not good.
Basic vehicles tend to be like that, yes.
The wheels tend to fall off on basic vehicles ? I hope you're joking.
Btw the BZ4X isn't priced like a basic vehicle -$42k++ isn't exactly entry level and the same price range as a Mustang Mach E, low end Tesla Model 3 or VW id3 with much better spec
No, sorry, that reply was intended for somebody else. Lemmy app struggles.
Mach E and Tesla aren’t “no frills”. I thought that was the request. At the moment, with tax credit, you can get a new Model 3 for 33k. Since Chevy killed the Bolt, I’m pretty sure that’s the cheapest EV on the market. But it wasn’t considered “no frills”
The Bolt EV or the Leaf are just that.
Sadly I had to wait 10 months, my dealer got a single SV Plus for me
But car company profit margins! The last couple of years have kinda been great for a lot of car manufacturers, increasing prices, basically only having higher end models in stock (mostly because they generally take longer to move, which they began to en mass when the car market went to hell), and basically moving directly to evs moving forward, which are inherently more expensive (at least for now). Personally, I kind of like the idea of phevs like the 2nd Gen Chevy volt and the new prius, as they make the transition to electric easier and are generally cheaper to manufacture. Then after more charging stations are available, moving more and more to evs. Not trying to be a gas shill, but I just can't see getting an ev right now because of the whole charging mess (the only mostly reliable stations I've heard of are the Tesla ones) and the cost.
I got lucky. My '23 M3 base from TX must have been made on a Tuesday or something because I didn't get the panel gaps or other issues that everyone complains about. So far it has just been an appliance-like car.
I'm sure the loud minority complain about teslas.
Recall for a Tesla: send an ota update and the user doesn't even notice it
Recall for other brands: send a snail mail letter asking to give the car to a dealer for an unspecified amount of time in order to do a replacement
They really should disaggregate recalls fixed with OTA updates from recalls that need a physical intervention. Obviously Teslas almost always need an OTA update
100%, this number is skewed by the fact that tesla will basically "recall" for any minor issue because it's a simple software update, I imagine a lot of companies try to avoid recalls as aggressively and for as long as possible because it's a significantly bigger burden on them
I say this as someone who drives a Tesla but is still extremely judgemental of Tesla
As everyone who watched Fight Club knows, it’s a simple calculation. If the costs of the recall exceed the cost for the expected lawsuits, they don’t do it.
An OTA update has essentially zero cost, so it’s even easier.
Agreed. The concept of judging vehicle quality by number of recalls is severely flawed for this very reason. My Subaru Impreza has had a number of recalls for a variety of trivial things, but I’ve had only one actual issue with it in 65k miles and have spent relatively little on maintenance. Comparing that to the Audi A4 I had before this car which required maybe one recall in similar mileage but I was constantly fixing major items from leaks, broken drive related components, etc.
Neither had any motor related issues so far, aside from burning oil in the Audi. But by number of recalls? That Audi was great! But they also had a number of lawsuits filed in attempt to get them to actually recall the multitude of problems. The one that it actually had was the result of them losing such a suit, but so many years later it really didn’t matter.
So yeah, terrible metric to track. At this point, I’d rather see that the company has a dozen recalls on their vehicles than zero.
Edit: I should clarify. That being said, I do believe Toyota actually makes a solid car the first time. Boring, but quality is a huge focus for them. I’m still hesitant to trust recall counts though and I don’t think I’d trust Mercedes number as a valid quality metric.
that last edit you added is probably the worst part, because it takes away from how solid Toyota and others are because it ruins the entire metric, Toyota is likely crushing it, and entirely possible Tesla is actually really really bad, but without the RIGHT metrics we can't actually draw any good conclusions, it's not just bad for tesla but for the whole market
It should also be pointed out that the numbers in the articles are just projections covering the next 30 years.
I don't know their methodology but I'm curious if they just took the current age and recall number and multiplied it out to 30 years. I don't think this would be a fair assessment because a car would likely have all the kinks worked out long before it hits 30. Furthermore, I find it odd they projected out 30 years when the average age of a car on the road is 12.5 years.
They shouldn't, because a LOT of those software updates were safety related.
Agreed. Although we would still need a measure the severity of these issues. An OTA update is more convenient than a physical recall, but it doesn't change that the car drove with those issues until the problem was discovered and fixed.
So the more important question is whether the underlying problem was something trivial like a minor comfort feature not working as intended or something affecting the safety of the car.
No they shouldn't. since not every OTA update gets a recall. Only safety related issues cause recalls. What OTA recall means is software or algorhitm related to the drive train, driving or related systems had a safety related issue.
It is normal, that now that there is more software control, there is more software related recalls. The point isn't to track how many times the car went to shop to be worked on. The point is to track how many times and how severe safety related issues there is. Just because the solution was simple to end user OTA update doesn't mean the underlying safety issue wasn't severe.
Before you had to go to garage to fix sticking accelerator cable. Now you have to update the power delivery mapping algorhitm, since it had a bug qnd didn't properly cut the torque from the motor on accelerator lift. Both are uncommanded acceleration application issues. Equally severe and very serious safety issues. One just needs physical work, other software fixing.
That they have to update the software so often regarding safety says to me their safety verification procedure isn't robust.
Also not like Tesla is the only one. Others also have had to update their software for bugs or ill behavior. Just not as often. I would hazard due to more conservative software updating.
Bunch of the recalls for Tesla have been caused by them updating software, introducing a bug and then having to pretty soon after safety recall for the update fixing that bug. If they had scrutineered the software more closely, they would have avoided the safety recall. Since the deployed software would be bug free on the first deployment.
Remember on modern EV, single bug in control software can send front and rear tires spinning in opposite directions. On 4 motor torque vectoring the software can send the car into uncontrolled tank spin with one side pulling forward and other backward.
The simple truth is the driveline control software is safety critical component of modern car and thus should absolutely earn safety notices on having problems. Mind you recall is archaic name for safety notice, but that is the name in legislations and use. On many other fields also there is archaic legacy terms in use and people learn to deal with it.
Doesn't OTA fixes by definition mean no recall?
No, they are for some reasons called recalls. Didn’t Tesla recall their entire fleet this spring? It was solved by OTA updates.
Why recall them if the issue can be taken care of over the air? That IS what OTA stands for, right?
Legally they have to "declare" a recall, even when they can fix it with a couple of lines of code and an OTA. Recall doesn't mean what you would expect it to me, it means "something the manufacturer needs to fix for safety reasons".
Hence why 98% of Tesla recalls are OTA (not actual stat, I'd have to look it up but it's definitely in the 90s)
That's just misleading then. Should really change that to match reality.
I don’t know if it’s maybe a judicial thing or something or if they are technically required to do an official recall registered in some system, even if they can actually solve it OTA.
I would suspect the rules around required recalls are not really updated to reflect the extended amount of issues that a vertical system integrator like Tesla can solve OTA.
Ah, it's one of those cases where de jure isn't the same reality as de facto and the hack journalist pretends otherwise? Gotcha.
I'm officially joining team "fuck Musk and his shoddily built rolling ipads, but that's bullshit bordering on journalistic malpractice", I guess 🤷
I don’t have any agenda, I just tried answering your question.
I'm not complaining about you, I appreciate your answer and am sorry about the confusion lol
I was complaining about the law and whomever made the statistics and wrote the article pretending that completely different things are the same, didn't mean to shoot the messenger!
Recall, an official recall, is a safety issue notice really. Its a legally defined thing in motor vehicle code. If manufacturer finds a defect, issue or feature affecting driving safety they have to notify safety authorities and get a recall issued. It doesn't have to have anything to do with, whether the product goes back to service garage or not.
Important point: Not every Tesla OTA update triggers a NHTSA (or other national road safety agency) official recall. Tesla has updated their cars plenty without recall notice. Only safety related issues get recall issued along with the OTA update.
Thus it is meaningfully, that they have so many software related (and thus OTA fixed) safety recalls. Each of those times is Hey, NHTSA, gonna have to admit, our software has a safety oopsie on it. Here is the paperwork, could you please issue us the official recall campaign number. Yeah software team already developed fix for it, it's all in the paperwork. We issue recall notice for drivers to check for the OTA to have gone through properly, that is all they need to do.
No maker wants to have safety recalls. It's bad PR. Makers have been fined plenty times for failing to properly inform agencies. One of the most famous is the Takata airbags. Where Takata got fined millions by first knowing and not telling their airbags had extra spicy unstable propellant exploding way too violently. Plus after firstly admitting to it lying to for example NHTSA about the vast extend of the problem.
So it matters, that even on "just a software issue" recalls are issued. The main point is public is properly informed. Lot of time it's resolved without great calamity. However this was exactly the lesson learned. Don't let makers hide issued, make them admit immediately so public knows and can take appropriate mitigation, before someone gets hurt. Also makes makers fix things quickly. Otherwise other priorities might override, since What they don't know can't hurt our reputation, like this is marginal issue. We can take little more time with this. Oh it takes 6 months to design fix with that small team. No worries. After all, no one knows. We have time. Except during that slow roll someone bumps into that "marginal issue" and gets hurt. Having to publicly admit immediately puts fire under their hind quarters. "Whole design department, stop what you are doing. We have safety recall issue. It went just public. Everyday company sits without being able to say No worries, we have solution we take flack. This is now priority number 1. This must be resolved yesterday, says the company board. Whatever parts or equipment you need, order it. Whomever you need to call, call them."
It's also worth, I think, pointing out that, for example, Lincoln has the 6th (I think) most recalled model as well as (again, I think) the second to least recalled model. So it shows that, in a lot of cases, it really depends on the model of the car rather than the manufacturer.
Except Tesla. 100% of Teslas current lineup is in the top 5.
I am still waiting for a day of no frills EVs or just more no frills cars in general. Less crap in the way to repair and whatnot. But all I see passing car lots are bigger vehicles that look like they have so much stuff in them.
We need like a Kirkland brand EV. Unless I am an idiot and people don't want stuff like that.
I love the tech in my car. The adaptive cruise control, heads up display, android auto, auto wipers, auto brights, lane keep assist, and blind spot detection in my Mazda are all used every single time I drive. Understand why people wouldn't want some of those things but I love it.
The tech is great, but for a lot of people it's not worth thousands of dollars -- especially when you run the (potentially small) risk of paying twice if it breaks outside of warranty.
They do it to disguise the cost. When the first leaf came out the battery was the majority of the cost of the car.. everything that was added on to make it a 'car' was cheap by comparison. So they added frills to get people to pay that much.. and it worked.
Even now, when batteries are considerably cleaner, they're a decent part of the cost - everyone wants a car that can do 300 miles.. that dictates a certain size and weight (given current energy densities) and the companies have to build a car around that.
Effectively if you made a kirkland car with few features it'd cost almost as much as the current EV crop and nobody would buy one to the lack of features. About cheapest so far is the MG ZS, and that's a £30k car. The £15-20k runabout that everyone wants just isn't feasable without compromising range beyond what most would accept.
I bought my first ev 8 months ago. 13k miles already and no maintenance cost yet. Absolutely love it and find any excuses to drive it.
I drove a gas guzzling 350hp coupe before jumping to a EV. I had my doubts but I'm glad I made the switch. It'll be awhile until we get a Costco like vehicle (my bet is Toyota or Hyundai will come out with something huge).
My commute is 70 miles a day and it's a blast. I drive it on weekends just because it's fun. I don't have any frills on it, just a screen I look at once in a while.5
What kind of EV?
Tesla model 3 performance. I know it gets shit on a lot for some reason but using it as a daily driver, it's the best car I ever had.
M3 here, the autopilot features are incredible, highway driving just fades away.
Definitely worth it, can barely drive my suv now.
Toyotas EV is like that. ID4 is fairly basic. Chevy Bolt.
The BZ4X that was recalled because the wheels fall off ? Has that been rereleased yet ?
https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/71277/2023-toyota-bz4x-disappointing-and-frustrating/
Apparently it has been rereleased. Still not good.
Basic vehicles tend to be like that, yes.
The wheels tend to fall off on basic vehicles ? I hope you're joking.
Btw the BZ4X isn't priced like a basic vehicle -$42k++ isn't exactly entry level and the same price range as a Mustang Mach E, low end Tesla Model 3 or VW id3 with much better spec
https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/bz4x/
No, sorry, that reply was intended for somebody else. Lemmy app struggles.
Mach E and Tesla aren’t “no frills”. I thought that was the request. At the moment, with tax credit, you can get a new Model 3 for 33k. Since Chevy killed the Bolt, I’m pretty sure that’s the cheapest EV on the market. But it wasn’t considered “no frills”
The Bolt EV or the Leaf are just that.
Sadly I had to wait 10 months, my dealer got a single SV Plus for me
But car company profit margins! The last couple of years have kinda been great for a lot of car manufacturers, increasing prices, basically only having higher end models in stock (mostly because they generally take longer to move, which they began to en mass when the car market went to hell), and basically moving directly to evs moving forward, which are inherently more expensive (at least for now). Personally, I kind of like the idea of phevs like the 2nd Gen Chevy volt and the new prius, as they make the transition to electric easier and are generally cheaper to manufacture. Then after more charging stations are available, moving more and more to evs. Not trying to be a gas shill, but I just can't see getting an ev right now because of the whole charging mess (the only mostly reliable stations I've heard of are the Tesla ones) and the cost.
I like this one that climbs Swiss mountains
https://peakevolution.ch/the-vehicle/
Tesla build quality is horrible.
American made sure. The Shanghai cars are solid.
I got lucky. My '23 M3 base from TX must have been made on a Tuesday or something because I didn't get the panel gaps or other issues that everyone complains about. So far it has just been an appliance-like car.
I'm sure the loud minority complain about teslas.
Recall for a Tesla: send an ota update and the user doesn't even notice it
Recall for other brands: send a snail mail letter asking to give the car to a dealer for an unspecified amount of time in order to do a replacement
Toyota the least?!?!
toyota.