U.S. v. Trump Will Be the Most Important Case in Our Nation’s History

trashhalo@beehaw.org to Politics@beehaw.org – 263 points – U.S. v. Trump Will Be the Most Important Case in Our Nation’s History
slate.com

The indictment against former President Donald Trump for his role in attempting to overturn the 2020 election results is the most important case in U.S. history, according to the author. The indictment alleges that Trump conspired to make false claims of election fraud and used those claims in an attempt to steal the election through pressuring state officials and interfering with Congress' certification of the electoral votes. If convicted, it would deter future would-be authoritarians from attempting to subvert elections. However, Trump may argue that he honestly believed the election was stolen, and assert First Amendment defenses. Still, the risks of not prosecuting Trump for undermining democracy are greater than the risks of prosecution. The outcome of this case will greatly influence whether the U.S. remains a democracy after 2024.

43

He thinks that running for President gives him privilege to avoid answering for his crimes. We have one set of laws for ALL Americans. It’s time to pay the price scumbag. Prison soon.

Running for president doesn't give him privilege to avoid answering for his crimes, but WINNING most definitely does.

This reminds me of a scene in the book Shogun where Blackthorne is asked something like “how could you possibly be excused for rebellion?”

“If you win”

I don’t want Trump to win! But he could probably weasel out of this mess by becoming president

Considering a US president has never before actively encouraged, and may have spear-headed, an open revolt!? Yes, I would say it probably will be the most important case in US history.

He can claim he believes it all he wants. The indictment isn't just for what he said, it's for what he DID. No matter your beliefs you can't bully a secretary of state to try to get more votes, you can't conspire to have a bunch of fake electors, you can't order the Vice President to overrule the will of the voters.

"The indictment includes charges of conspiring to defraud the U.S., conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, obstructing an official proceeding and violating a post-Civil War Reconstruction Era civil rights statute that makes it a crime to conspire to violate rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution — in this case, the right to vote." https://apnews.com/article/trump-indicted-jan-6-investigation-special-counsel-debb59bb7a4d9f93f7e2dace01feccdc

There is nothing in those charges about what he said. For those at least, he can't hide behind the first amendment.

I'm more worried there's going to be one fucking dumbass on the jury who derails the whole thing into a mistrial, Trump wins the election, and pardons himself or pulls some other shenanigans to weasel out.

Thanks for re-directing back to the real issue. Fox News and Republicans in general want to make this seem like a free speech issue, and it's going to work if people don't know what the actual details of the case are.

Yup. It literally says in the indictment (PDF) that Trump, like anyone else, has freedom of speech.

The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely,that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election andthat he had won . He was also entitled to formally challenge the results ofthe election through lawful and appropriate means, such as by seeking recounts or audits of the popular vote in states or filing lawsuits challenging ballots and procedures. Indeed, in many cases, the Defendant did pursue these methods of contesting the election results. His efforts to change the outcome in any state through recounts , audits,or legal challenges were uniformly unsuccessful.

But of course, FNC and their ilk won't pay attention to that. They won't even read the indictment.

Not only the US.. Internationally, the bigotry and BS is spilling over. Here in Australia, we're still highly divided because of absolute BS like his COVID nonsense. I'm coming across people talking about "wokeness" even here in Australia now (wankers of course).

This needs to end..

In fact, the fact he stepped into a public meeting the day after he lost the case against Jean Carroll and basically called her a slut (apparently after not knowing who she was), after not attending the trial, should be more than enough evidence that he's a bad person. In fact a few youtubers even called him out prematurely that he'd claim the judge was corrupt and blocked him from attending the trial, etc (and he did exactly that, which is why the Judge had obviously offered to give him a short delay to attend).

And I literally saw 5 mins of Fox news months before the insurrection, and it was obvious to me when he started saying the election is rigged that he was already setting things up to overthrow it.

To be clear, I'm a straight white male. So absolutely nobody could claim I'm sexist against him. He's just a manipulative S.O.B. He should go to prison, and take the rest of his toxic alpha wannabees with him. I'm so sick of them causing problems even here

Indictments are one thing. Convictions are another, and punishments are yet another. Wake me up when something actually happens.

Just indicating him is a big step I wasn't sure they would take. I wish he was locked up already but these things take time, even for regular people it isn't a quick process.

Really? How is this cringe meme of a comment still a thing? Get the wheels off your goalposts.

Why did it take 3 years to indict him?

  • It's a lengthy process if you do it thoroughly
  • The stakes are high so taking your time to do things right is important
  • Trump's legal team has certainly been doing everything they can to delay everything they're able to

Trump’s legal team has certainly been doing everything they can to delay everything they’re able to

Trump's legal team is not very smart, and now is hard to find, since they all quit. I doubt they did everything.

Ever had to write a research paper where the books didn't want to let you read them?

Gathering evidence takes time. and they had to wait for the congressional inquiries to finish

Why does it matter? Why deflect instead of addressing the substance of the indictment?

I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the indictment, I'm wondering why it took so long to indict such a serious offense. Even the Republican senators were in danger, so I don't get why neither party pushed for it harder.

I see, I apologize for assuming. I think others have already answered that better than I could. I do think the DOJ sat on this longer than they should have but as someone else already said, Trump and his coconspirators entire legal strategy has been delay, delay, delay.

Weak charges. Every flimsy indictment only galvanizes MAGA and vindicates Trump’s bloviating about the deep state. Hell raise 100 million dollars off this.

Irrelevant. An impartial grand jury decided he should be charged. It's not about whether it's advantageous to him politically, it's about law and order.

They chickened out and didn’t charge sedition. Now he can still run, weak charges are worse than no charges.

Did they? Or did the available evidence and applicable case law not support sedition charges?

Insurrection is sedition???

The question is whether it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the letter of the law.

Well conspiracy charges are laughably vague and afaik conviction doesn’t bar him from running. So what’s the point? We are handing him the WH… again

I just told you what the point is. It has nothing to do with his 2024 campaign, nor should it. Would be pretty fucked up if it did.

Lol. Insist on your tidy fantasy if you must. Everybody else is getting comfy with real politique.

This is the reality. The best thing everyone including the doj could have done is stop even acknowledging his existence. Things like this are just fanning the MAGA flame.

Right, Trump will definately just go away if you cover your eyes and plug your ears...

Nope we need to stop this shit now. Letting him go only emboldens the next person who wants to do it.

Exactly this.

Anyone carefully read the history of the Roman Republic as it transitioned to dictatorship? All the democratic republican functions that set the foundation for governance still existed after the changeover. What was different was where the center of power lay. Sully pointed the way. Caesar learned from this (not enough, though). Octavius put it all together and, get this, Italy for 1700 years was not a democratic republic.

This is the cautionary tale that Americans could learn from. Alas, anyone who thinks or studies or does any manner of research is considered "elitist" and is quickly dismissed. Ignorance is no excuse, but it, apparently, is a state of being for too many Americans.

Maybe allowing the next person with his strength and without his weaknesses to succeed where he failed.

Every dollar he spends on defense lawyers is one he doesn't spend on campaign ads

He is going to argue that he was fed bad information by his alleged co-conspirators and had reasonable concerns about the integrity of the election. No mens rea, no conviction. Bullshit, of course, but it doesn’t take a whole lot to hang a jury, and I would think that is particularly so in a politically charged case. I have seen a lot of good arguments to the contrary, but folks have to understand that proving this part is harder than you might think.

He is in greater immediate jeopardy with the documents case where it is impossible to see him mounting a successful defense, at least if the law is followed. The question there will be the severity of the consequences. Will he plead out? Will he get a slap on the wrist?

Edit: interesting short blurb here where Bill Barr is quoted as saying he thinks prosecutors have additional evidence establishing intent.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/bill-barr-trump-arraignment-2020-election/index.html