'Babbling' and 'hoarse': Biden's debate performance sends Democrats into a panic
nbcnews.com
The president often had a weak, raspy voice during his first debate against Trump, in what Democrats had hoped would be a turning point in the race.
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I'm not in a panic. I knew this. Should he have run again? Hell no. I wish he would have had the courage to call it a day.
That being said, I'm fully willing to endure 4 years of Weekend at Bernie's if it means I won't have to go through the embarrassment of having the orange moron at the helm.
Are you willing to let Trump win though than have Biden step aside? That is what the DNC should be asking themselves. The polls are way to close for Biden to have that poor of a performance. If Democrats are seriously worried about Trump being the end of Democracy then they would not be okay with Biden being the DNC's best choice.
I think it's to late to change things up. That's the problem, everyone told the DNC this was going to happen and yet they all just kept with Biden.
That being said, I don't think either Trump or Biden are in a state to actually run the country. Their cabinets are going to hold all the power, and I trust Bidens cabinet over Trumps any day.
Any change no matter if is too late or too inconvenient would be a better change for the DNC than to allow Biden at the top position. Seriously, any other DNC politician would be better than Biden even if they changed right now or in the next few months. All you need is some politician who is about 50 years old to fight Trump every day until the election and the orange menace would suffer a heart attack trying to keep up.
This is insane .... it's almost as if the powers that be want Trump to win and the only way they can ensure that is to put him up against an 80 year old competitor because it is the only candidate he could possibly beat.
It's not up to the DNC to "allow" candidates or not. The DNC charter says the voters choose the nominee. They literally have no power to change the will of the voters. They could theoretically alter the Dem party charter, but doing so this close to an election would likely not stand up in courts. The only possible way to get a replacement candidate cough Gavin Newsom cough would be for Biden to formally ask his delegates not to select him. And since Harris would be the automatic replacement she would likely have to agree to allow someone else.
The DNC argued in court that they could ignore their bylaws and put their thumb on the scale as much as they wanted. Guess that only applies when they're fucking over progressives.
Nope. A lawyer argued in court that they could legally change the party charter, in to win a court case. Which they theoretically could, but if they tried to alter the charter this close to the election it would be overturned in court for a great many reasons.
Thinking that "DNC" small group of caretakers can choose anyone they want shows that you have a profound lack of understanding of how things actually work. Legally, control of the DNC lies in the hands of the newly elected delegates. The small caretaker group does not have the power to purge the much bigger general membership of already elected delegates. If they tried to, every single DNC delegate elected this year could sue the caretakers and would very easily win that lawsuit. Furthermore, the party charter bounds the delegates to Biden on the first ballot. Biden will have to be convinced to formally release them before they could legally vote for anybody else.
The reason why you have a profound misunderstanding of how things actually work is because you were subjected to an onslaught of Kremlin propaganda in 2016 without knowing the source. And that propaganda gave you a dunning-kruger effect of vastly overestimating your knowledge of how the political parties actually work.
Centrists gaslight when they know they're wrong.
I've read the transcripts. They argued that the charter was discretionary.
A) I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and 2020.
B) This article explains how things really work and how the elected delegates are legally binded to Biden on the first ballot and that it would be illegal for anybody in the executive committee or anybody besides Job Biden to release the delegates.
https://apnews.com/article/biden-replacement-democratic-ballot-dnc-rules-7aa836b0ae642a68eec86cc0bebd3772
You misread the transcripts and it gave you a dunning-kruger understanding. Even if the lawyer had said that it would still be completely incorrect.
How utterly convenient from the party whose rules are discretionary when they want to fuck over progressives.
Gaslight someone else. I read the transcripts correctly.
Even if you provide a source, he said the opposite before a judge. Not under oath is bullshit.
The rules are hardcoded in the charter. The DNC never violated the party charter. Bernie Sanders number of delegates were 100% determined by the votes he got from people like me. I've never heard Bernie Sanders repeating your nonsense. Why the f*ck would I believe a random dunning kruger over Bernie Sanders? Bernie Sanders is way smarter than you are and he never lies.
Then provide the exact reference so I can tell you where your wrong. Show me the exact evidence where a lawyer says "my employers hereby reserve the right to ignore their own organization's charter that is the legal source of their authority". Because I've proved the opposite. And you haven't proved shit. All you ever done in this conversation is repeat vague accustions that came from the Kremlin with no details whatsoever. Also, there is no chance whatsoever that any judge would allow the DNC executive committee to arbitrary purge the 1000+ new members of the DNC and who legally control the DNC and the executive committee of the DNC.
WHO "said the opposite"? A lawyer is a hired employee, not a member of the DNC. He has no authority to violate the party charter. Not one single member of the DNC has ever said such a thing. Since the 1000+ newly elected delegates ARE THE DNC, why would they ever even want to violate the party charter? There is no chance whatsoever that any judge would allow the DNC executive committee to arbitrary purge the 1000+ new members of the DNC and who legally control the DNC and the executive committee of the DNC.
Stop with the 'gaslight' shit. You've given no evidence at all to back up anything you've said. I've 100% proved my case with authoritive sources. YOU are gaslighting ME. Also, there is no chance whatsoever that any judge would allow the DNC executive committee to arbitrary purge the 1000+ new members of the DNC and who legally control the DNC and the executive committee of the DNC.
And finally I want to say this. There is no chance whatsoever that any judge would allow the DNC executive committee to arbitrary purge the 1000+ new members of the DNC and who legally control the DNC and the executive committee of the DNC.
That "cigars" quote was from the DNC's legal counsel, acting as the party's representative in court. This was after the party had already engaged in fuckery and were arguing in court that they should get away with it.
That's the party's position regarding its charter when it's convenient to do so, which is to say, when they want to fuck over a progressive. But when there's a centrist that the party wants to hang on to, then the charter was brought down on stone tablets from Mount Sinai.
Link? The only way for people to know if you are taking things out of context is to provide a link.
So it is exactly like I told you. No court would allow the Executive Committee to disregard the charter, let alone purge the DNC membership of the newly elected delegates.
This is a judge characterizing something. There are no quotes from the DNC's hired lawyer, let alone from an actual former DNC member, let alone from a current DNC member. You need to provide an actual quote from an actual DNC member before we can judge this claim accurately.
She's not even there no more. She is not "the DNC".
It's not the "party's position", and certainly not anything they could legally do. All you have provided is a judge's characterization of a former members characterization who wasn't there to give any testimony and which was completely rejected by the judge. We haven't seen any actual quotes of any actual current or former members of the DNC executive committee.
If the judge said that a DNC member could not break the law on some trivial thing why the hell would you think the legal system would allow the current DNC to reject a fundamental rule that the newly elected delegates ARE ALREADY MEMBERS OF THE DNC and can not be arbitrarily purged? The DNC members legally controls who the executive committee members are (and will do so at the convention). You are asserting the exact opposite is true. The executive committee does not have the legal right to remove members of the DNC. You have things 100% backwards. Bernie Sanders would personally explain that to you if you had a chance to talk to him.
I agree. I'll vote for Biden if I have to, but if Trump wins I'm not blaming RFK Jr like they blamed Bernie and Jill Stein in 2016. I'll blame them and likely never vote for a majority political party again.
If Trump wins you will never get to vote in a free and fair election ever again.
Which will be the fault of Democrats.
This line of thought always amuses me. “It’s democrats faults for not stopping republicans from being horrible people”
Oooooorrrrr maybe it’s republicans fault… for being horrible people?
“It’s the fire departments fault my house burned down, not the guy who lit it on fire.”
The democrats should not have dressed so provocatively!
What they are doing is akin to elder abuse
Republicans are horrible people. They gaslight, obstruct & project. Democracy is on the line here, so Democrats do the logical thing. They go to a nursing home and find someone that is talking about beating medicare to help lead them to victory.
It will be the fault of Republicans first and asshats on the internet 2nd.
Not the elder abusers?
Dunno are you an elder abuser?
No I'm not Jill Biden
We heard this same talking point in 2016 but somehow we still had a 2020 election.
As if the J6 putsch didn't happen lol
As if it was successful. The US isnt a dictatorship, the president isn't a dictator, and last time they tried to overwhelm it with force it did little to the political institutions of our country other than scare some politicians. The same body that was under attack voted against calling it a coup.
i think that's only the tip of the iceberg; we're going to vote for them anyways so they literally have no reason to bother listening, ever.
That's the real danger of Donny. If you care at all about the country you have to vote for the Democrat. It gives the Dems too much power.
If this strategy allows them to win elections while putting forth the most donor friendly and least citizen friendly candidate, they're not going to stop on their own. Go vote Biden sure but in 4 year if you don't have a plan to ensure the next Dem candidate isn't the least liked person whos technically better than a Republican then you're responsible for the regression of the country.
At the end of the day, that's the main takeaway here. It's not so much the men themselves, but the people they intend to appoint to positions of authority. Biden will appoint experts and professionals to run the country for him. Trump will appoint sycophants and yes-men to do whatever he wants to do, even if it flies in the face of reason or standard procedure, and unlike last time he won't allow anyone who isn't 100% loyal to him to work in his administration.
Thats my take on it at least (although with Trump I'm not sure who will be using who if he's elected). It's frustrating that few people are talking about this, cause at the end of the day neither of them are fit (physically/mentally) to be president. So for once it really is just about the party and policies and not the person running.
What is with this absurd disconnect from reality? The DNC charter says only the voters have the power to choose the nominee.
While I agree, it's way too late in the game to change up now. There's no strong candidate waiting in the wings. It's not about willing, it's about alternatives.
Gretchen Whitmer would run away with the election. Plus, we get Michigan (swing state) and the suburban moms. I really can’t see a downside.
There are so many better options at this point. I can't help but shake that the two party system is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Make people think that mediocrity is the best we can get if we're lucky.
We got FDR and LBJ and Lincoln and Washington. So if you think that then that's on your own faulty thinking.
You're free to keep supporting Biden at this point but hopefully when you see all the Democratic news outlets saying the same things tomorrow and this coming week and the polls showing Biden's support dropping you'll reconsider
WTF are you talking about. What I want is for Biden to drop out and be replaced by Gavin Newsom. Nor did I vote for Biden in the 2020 primary. I'm just saying that you're completely wrong that the system cannot produce good candidates since we've had great presidents in the past.
There doesn't have to be a strong candidate, just anyone stronger than Biden who's basically zombie-crawling across the floor.
He absolutely can be replaced at this stage, and by nearly anyone.
Only if they can convince him to step aside and let someone else run. At this point the voters have selected 3,904 delegates who are contractually obligated to cast a vote for him at the Convention. If the delegates somehow simply ignored the primaries, they'd be quite literally ignoring the will of their voters and taking matters into their own hands. It's alarming how many on the left (who presumably had a problem with the DNC's treatment of Bernie in 2016) are cheering for the DNC to heavily influence the primary process again. I don't necessarily disagree that something drastic needs to be negotiated, but the irony of this is really hard to ignore.
This is the way the DNC set their rules up, they've been ok using the system to kneecap progressives, I see no reason that they shouldn't do that to Biden. I'm not precious about the DNC and I have no illusion that it's democratic, so they just need to stop pretending they're being held back by principles and just pull the levers they always pull to control the convention outcome.
Yes, and the rules were voted on by party members before the primary started. They're now in place, and they're obligated to respect them until this process plays out. Same thing happened in 2016. Say what you will about whether the rules were "fair" or not, they were agreed upon before Iowa, and they were respected through the Convention.
The way you use "kneecap progressives" tells me you're conflating DNC primary rules and campaign finance. The two are not the same thing. They could do to Biden what they did to Bernie and blast the airwaves with damaging, misleading attacks, but none of that would fundamentally change the fact that the primary rules were agreed upon and are immutable until the Convention comes to a close.
And to reiterate, it's not "principles" that are holding them back. It's a contractual obligation whose violation would open them up to civil litigation. Voters picked delegates and they're obligated to respect the voters who selected them. The DNC can't just tell them to take a hike.
But Biden can.
edit: AP just put out a piece that confirms what I've been saying. They'd be sued into oblivion if they usurped the process right now. The ball is very much in Biden's court.
He absolutely can't be legally replaced unless he agrees to that.
And the replacement would automatically be Harris unless she agrees to allow someone else. The DNC charter says that only the voters can select the nominee. Changing that charter this close to an election likely wouldn't stand up in courts. The only way to replace Biden would be to convince him to step down.They argued in court that they could ignore this.
Nope. They argued in court that they could alter their charter.
AOC would be a really strong candidate. The right would freak out and she'd end up getting more press coverage than Trump. I imagine she'd make several Republican's embolisms pop.
The party would rather lose democracy forever than nominate AOC.
Yes, she's probably the only one with enough name recognition and veracity to take on the orange moron in my opinion. Problem is corporate Democrats wouldn't back her because she's too progressive and that goes against their corporate masters.
True... However if Trump gets elected and our government is able to prevent a dictatorship, in 4 years progressives will hopefully realize the DNC needs them more than they need need the DNC.
the progressives already know that the dnc needs them more than they need the dnc as evidenced by dnc surrogates perpetually shaming progressives for not voting for the dnc; i'm guessing there's a typo in your sentence somewhere, but i'm not sure where.
If the progressives truly thought that then the US would have a much different stance in regards to Israel.
Now I'm sad because I remember wishing Bernie had won.
You and me both, man. He was my guy.
Bernie had the most individual donors by a landslide. Too bad Americans are too dumb and easily manipulated
I was one of them
We all are dude. Or so I am guessing.
But it was Hilary's turn! /s
C’est la vie
Embarrassment and danger.
There's no danger. Even frail Biden is 1000x more competent than trump
Danger from Trump getting elected
We'll need to see the polling in about a week but I haven't seen a performance this bad since Palin. The Democrats may need to go to an open convention.
DEAR PLEASE GOD someone turn this into comedic satire before the election!!!
I would. You would. But there are millions of voters who aren’t as informed. And what they saw last night was an ancient, out of touch candidate channeling Walter Mondale. Many will probably still vote for him, but this performance will depress voter turnout.
After he wins the election, he could retire and let Harris rule in his stead.
Then there's Schumer (provided he's still the majority leader.)
There really is no need for a weekend at Bernie's situation.
The tradition for an out-of-it pres is the first lady runs the show.
I'm okay with that. Jill is fine. Better than Melania.