The number of "left" voters in this community that are doing their damnedest to get Trump elected never ceases to disturb me.
Yup. These types of articles and threads are designed to help Trump but muddying the water
But brah, it's totally acceptable to overreact when one candidate doesn't give us every little fucking thing we want, and MORE. They better cowtow, or I'm gonna keep being mean in comments because that's useful and productive for reealz.
I'll totally trash their bullshit because I'm not "working for the man", dawg. Kamala is just more bullllshiiiit or whatever stupid thing we people say. Palestine on ma dingdong, and JillStein4Prez ✌️💩💩
Do you genuinely think that people are being petulant or petty or something because they strongly object to their leadership supporting an ongoing genocide? Like this is some unreasonable "pet issue" or something?
Yes, because they are. Let's break it down.
The only factual result of the system we can vote in has the outcome of two parties.
GOP is getting people in swing states kicked off the rolls
Ranked choice hasn't hit all states yet
Ergo: anyone who doesn't vote for Harris is a vote for Trump. Like it or not.
It is a dipole. You vote for fascism and some old bitch trying to save his own ass in a clear run towards dictatorship, OR YOU VOTE AGAINST THAT.
Jill Stein and RFK Jr are wasted votes. That's the fucking facts. Get with reality.
And if your sole vote is about Gaza, GUESS WHAT? Everyone else is waiting in line to sell weapons to Israel. You won't solve that issue by voting for fascist bullshit in the US as a revenge vote.
So yeah...I'd call that fucking petulant if you're willing to vote for fascism because you don't get your fucking way. Kick and scream and do whatever you want. It's not going the way you want in either case, so don't take the extra step to "stick it to the man" by helping vote Trump in.
Is supporting a genocide fascist? If I were trying to differentiate myself from a fascist opponent, I might simply stop supporting the genocide. Would you go to war if drafted? If you don't go, someone else will. That person might shoot children in the stomach, whereas you would more compassionately aim for the head.
I literally ran down a thread a few days ago asking for comment attackers to justify dropping Israel as an ally. Nobody came at me with a viable plan aside from "Uhhhh, just stop".
That's not how it works.
Please feel free to enlighten us on your solution though.
Nobody came at me with a viable plan
Is that the one where one side of the argument kept ignoring anything other than mindless unconditional support for genocide and only genocide and kept dropping little one-word dismissals like "next" and "BYE"?
Because the thread got nuked and I'm wondering if I have you confused for a different condescending genocide apologist. There are so many of them on lemmy.
Please feel free to enlighten us on your solution though.
Condition or cease weapons sales.
anyone who doesn't vote for Harris is a vote for Trump. Like it or not.
Following this logic: anyone who does not vote for Trump votes for Harris.
So a vote for third party is a vote for Harris?
No.
It's saying if you don't vote for the best chance to stop the threat to democracy (Trump) then you are, on some level, ok with what Trump will do.
Same applies the other way. If you think she's horrible for some reason but don't vote for Trump (the candidate with the best chance to beat her), then you're willing to accept her agenda.
Apparently you don't get logic. You're definitely a Stein voter.
I applied logic consistently. I see that is not appreciated here.
us every little fucking thing we want
Imagine supporting genocide so hard that this is what you think of anyone who objects to it in any way at all ever.
Disgusting mindset.
The real world is not nice or perfect.
You take the least worst option. You're choosing between a 2/10 and a 7/10 and then upset that the 7/10 isn't a 10/10. That's never going to happen. I would love for it to, but that's naively idealistic.
I love when liberals actually put things in these terms because it's so much more honest than how they typically talk about it.
A candidate supporting genocide means they don't, "give us every little fucking thing we want, and MORE." A pro-genocide candidate is still a "7/10." Good, yes, drop the pretense and tell the truth that you just don't really give a shit how many foreigners get murdered, instead of trying to act like some bleeding heart. Exposing the contradictions like that is good.
Saying one is better than the other does not mean people don't care about people dying. That's extremely dishonest and arguing in bad faith. Ffs. If I have to cut off my arm or my finger, I don't like either but I can realize the best choice.
I could say that by going after Kamala for this you don't care if Trump wins, you only care about the middle east. But that would be dishonest, so I'm not making absurd leaps in logic, but that seems to be how your approaching this topic. If all you can do is argue in bad faith then there's no room for a conversation.
That's what I'm saying. Usually you lot wring your hands and say, "Oh, we really care so much about the genocide, it's just Trump is so much worse, don't you know." But then you have comments like these that call genocide a "little thing," and that it only docks a couple points off of how you'd rate a politician. So it reveals that all you posturing that you care is fake. You might prefer that it not happen, all else being equal, but it hardly matters to you at all.
A politician supporting genocide is like getting a different flavor of ice cream than what you wanted. This sort of honesty is rare, and it makes a much better starting point then the bullshit y'all are always pushing about how much you care. It's a waste of time trying to argue against premises a person is merely pretending to hold.
"You lot"? What lot am I lol, I'm curious what stereotypical bucket you've decided I'm in.
You then put "little thing" in quotes. I've never once called genocide a little thing, ever. This is more dishonesty. I said it makes her less desirable, that's reality, I expressed that with a 10 point scale. What do you want me to make her and Trump both 0/10, act like they're the same?
But somehow I don't care because I can see that all things considered one candidate is better than the other. You seem to tell me how I feel, who I am, and what I think. And now you're telling me this doesn't even matter to me? How transparent
...
Ok well I stopped reading the rest. Your not even making a point you're just making wild assumptions and telling me who I am. Well I can tell you what I've observed about you. You don't care about facts, reality, or nuance. You're a hyped up activist that has lost the plot all for this crusade. You're willing to let the world burn and attack anyone who doesn't think this is all that matter in the world.
You need to grow up and understand that wars and death happen throughout history. Most people don't like it, and since you can't stop making wild assumptions let me state clearly that I don't like it. But if we drop everything and hyper focus on every single war while letting corrupt politicians who want to stop voting and remove rights at home then it helps nothing. If Trump is in office not only does he not help either, but he causes more harm. The net amount of suffering in the world goes up, and that's what matters. I'm looking at the global stage and you can't seem to expand your mind to see the big picture.
Keep ranting and raving if you want. Tell me who I hate and that I love seeing people die or whatever, I don't care. You're a lost cause.
You then put “little thing” in quotes. I’ve never once called genocide a little thing, ever. This is more dishonesty.
And I'm already voting for Harris. I still get to gripe about genocide, no matter how much it pisses off centrists to hear the blasphemy to the core of their worldview that is the merest suggestion that we shouldn't be supporting genocide.
Sure, and if you make people not vote for her, increasing Trumps chance to win, so be it. I suppose you're ok with that outcome.
I'd rather do whatever I can to get her in office then push for change. If US democracy falls apart with Trump then we have much larger problems than war in the middle east.
Sure, and if you make people not vote for her,
With my spoooooky mind control ray? You just want everyone who doesn't support genocide to shut up.
No, I'm acknowledging that how you discuss it can impact an election. Are you honestly so dense that you don't understand that?
And no, that's not what I want and it's not what I said, but please keep continuing this pattern of telling me how I feel and what I want. It seems you do have a mind reading ray, otherwise these claims would be extremely ignorant.
And no, that’s not what I want and it’s not what I said, but please keep continuing this pattern of telling me how I feel and what I want.
Then maybe give some indication that you're upset about the genocide and not just angry that people don't think it's a good idea for Democrats to support it.
I've said genocide is bad multiple times, what do you want a video of me crying? Jesus. I've said I'm against it, I've even said we need to push for change. You just don't want to hear that, I don't agree with you on every single point so you want to immediately other me and make assumptions about my stance.
You seem to be operating more off emotion than logic...
I’ve said genocide is bad multiple times,
And I've said I'm voting for Harris multiple times. If you don't care and keep ignoring that, why should I extend greater courtesy to you?
I’ve said I’m against it, I’ve even said we need to push for change.
While also saying that objections to genocide are making people vote for Trump.
You seem to be operating more off emotion than logic…
Imagine being emotional when your party is supporting genocide and is openly hostile to any attempt to stop or even slow it. This is monstrous and disgusting and unconscionably immoral. No US politician of any party has any business supporting this, let alone Democrats, the "moral high ground" party.
The lion's share of your vitriol is directed at the critics of genocide, not at its perpetrators or enablers.
And I've said I'm voting for Harris multiple times. If you don't care and keep ignoring that, why should I extend greater courtesy to you?
Because I've never said your not voting for her, simply that your comments could impact other voters. You've said I don't care multiple times when I've said the opposite. You seem more interested in a sick burn than being accurate.
While also saying that objections to genocide are making people vote for Trump.
Never said that once. I never said being against genocide means you're pro Trump. I've even said I'm against it. Holy crap you are dishonest.
Imagine being emotional when your party is supporting genocide and is openly hostile to any attempt to stop or even slow it. This is monstrous and disgusting and unconscionably immoral. No US politician of any party has any business supporting this, let alone Democrats, the "moral high ground" party.
Imagine trying to solve a problem with emotion not logic. That's exactly what you're trying to do.
The lion's share of your vitriol is directed at the critics of genocide, not at its perpetrators or enablers.
Wrong again. I'm trying to prevent genocide being the middle east, you seem to have blinders on.
Because I’ve never said your not voting for her, simply that your comments could impact other voters.
You said I was making them vote against her. Don't gaslight me.
Never said that once. I never said being against genocide means you’re pro Trump. I’ve even said I’m against it. Holy crap you are dishonest.
You said I was making them vote against her. Don't gaslight me.
Imagine trying to solve a problem with emotion not logic. That’s exactly what you’re trying to do.
Can I not gripe about genocide without an immediate logical solution?
I’m trying to prevent genocide being the middle east
By directing your anger at the critics of genocide and not at its perpetrators or enablers.
Single issue voters. They don't understand wider implications of their actions, however well intended they are.
The way Harris refuses to court her own voting base never ceases to disturb me
Ftfy.
Its not on voters. Voters will do what they will do. Its on politicians who we vote for. Also I will be voting for Harris and also protesting at every event where I can to demand this apartheid and genocide to end.
Stop making Israel an election issue and worry about your own damn country. If you want to vote on Israel's future move there, become a citizen and vote.
But you live in the u.s, put down your world police badge and vote on your country's matters.
If not a single one of your leaders and candidates supports an issue, IT'S NOT AN ELECTION ISSUE.
America funding Genocide isn't an issue for you? Your moral compass works differently to mine
America funding Genocide isn’t an issue for you?
It is. It's why they're so adamant about silence.
Cool we'll just go ahead with Boycott, Divest, and Sanction then right? After all this is our country and we can decide where our tax dollars go.
Right?
The problem is that there are candidates that do support ending the genocide, like Claudia De La Cruz. The issue is that the US is a dictatorship that cannot be saved electorally, we can't simply vote in good candidates like Claudia De La Cruz, because the State is scientifically engineered to prevent positive change for the Working Class and maximize profits for the Bourgeoisie.
YOUR TAX DOLLARS WILL BE USED TO MURDER CHILDREN AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT NOW GO VOTE FOR THE GENOCIDER LIKE A GOOD CITIZEN
Funny, suddenly you all care that your money is being used to kill people. You cheered it when it was my people. Now you morally grandstand and wonder why some of us think you Americans are hypocrites
You cheered it when it was my people
Yeah dude, we all got around a fire and jerked eachother off about it
Is everyone from your country exactly alike in political opinion? No? Neither are americans. I have been actively anti-war and anti-bombing since I've been an adult why are you making such bold assumptions based on 1 post I made which was ANTI-WAR ANTI-US EMPIRE ANTI-BOMBING
"Grandpa, what did you do when the genocides were happening?"
"Told people off for not being enthusiastic about voting for pro-genocide candidates"
"No, I meant the one in Sudan"
"There was one in Sudan? Well, I didn't do anything. You see, there were no Democrats to blame"
We aren't selling weapons for the genocide in Sudan.
Quit whatabouting in support of genocide.
So you're not actually against genocide. You just want someone else to supply the weapons. If China would just take over IDF arms shipments, then you could ignore Gaza too.
What the heck is this argument? "Well SOMEONE is going to supply the weapons for mass slaughter, might as well be us!"
The argument is: it makes no difference who supplies the weapons. The only thing that matters is who exerts the most pressure to get a ceasefire.
My government isn't spending my tax money to make me an accessory to the genocide in Sudan. You're just happy that your tax money is being used for a cause you support: the genocide in Gaza.
I don't think the person you responded to ever mention being happy about genocide. Why would you lie about that?
So they expect everyone else to be happy about genocide while being unhappy about it themselves? That makes no sense.
I trust that you'll also be calling all the people who accuse anyone who is even slightly unhappy about genocide of being trump supporters liars too, right?
When did the person you responded to say that anyone is or is expected to be happy about genocide?
I trust that you’ll also be calling all the people who accuse anyone who is even slightly unhappy about genocide of being trump supporters liars too, right?
So the answer to this is "fuck no, I only call people who don't support genocide liars."
No, I'm just calling you a liar. You are literally saying that person you're referring to said they are happy about genocide, and that others should be happy about genocide, which never happened. You are making up the words that were never said to emotionally support your view.
But I will also say, if you think that not voting for Harris in November will in any will help end the genocide, you're grossly mistaken, and such an action would be in direct support of Trump's presidential election. Interpret those facts how you will.
But I will also say, if you think that not voting for Harris in November will in any will help end the genocide
I'm still voting for Harris, despite the constant accusations of pro-genocide centrists to the contrary.
Oh, so you're going to go around and telling anyone that's voting for Harris and supports her over Trump, that they are happy and complacent with genocide, and then you're still going to vote for her like somehow you're different? Holy shit is that the most hypocritical thing I've read in a long time. That's quite the high pedestal you've put yourself on there.
The number of pro-genocide centrists who accuse anyone who doesn't love genocide as much as they do of being trumpers will never surprise me.
Maybe they just have a tendency to confuse the painfully obvious consequences of not voting or voting against Harris for your actual intended goals. Trump is clearly going to be worse for Palestinians since he outright said Netanyahu should just finish the job, so if you're on a clear and obvious path to getting someone even worse elected, we can't help but wonder if you don't actually care about the Palestinians because for all the bitching and moaning about Harris's stance, you're on your way to making the situation objectively worse.
I'm voting for Harris and have never, I want to stress this, absolutely fucking NEVER suggested doing otherwise.
You will of course completely ignore this because I dared to say that genocide isn't the only thing in this world that gives life meaning.
I'll admit I was mistaken given your comment was sandwiched between two people suggesting otherwise and given your suggestion that anyone tired of listening to those people try to discourage voting for Harris is pro-genocide. You may not be one of them, but you walk a very similar walk here, so I wouldn't be so surprised by the confusion.
Consider for a moment that some of the others that you've written off might not be trying to discourage people from voting for Harris but might actually be upset about genocide.
You do understand that there are people in the world who genuinely don't like genocide without ulterior motives, right? That it's actually possible to find genocide objectionable?
Because it sure fucking seems like centrists on lemmy don't want to hear anything that isn't glowing praise in the face of the news that Harris will continue supporting genocide to the same degree that Biden has.
Dude this all started because top comment knew this post was gonna be full of people discouraging voting for Harris, and then you jumped in and accused people of being pro-genocide for it. This is what I mean when I said you walk a similar walk. Anyone who disagrees with your perfect view of the world MUST be an enemy who directly wants genocide.
None of us like genocide. We're just tired of it being used to trash the candidate who's objectively better on the topic, shitty as that may be. I, at least, don't care if some posts about her are negative, but I'm real fucking tired of people trying to pretend that her failings here mean getting the objectively worse Trump elected on purpose or on accident is somehow a coherent idea, much less a good one.
Anyone who disagrees with your perfect view of the world MUST be an enemy who directly wants genocide.
And anyone who criticizes any Democrat's support for genocide gets a fucking earful of "you want Trump to win" accusations.
None of us like genocide.
Ha. I wish we could link to specific modlog entries.
We’re just tired of it being used to trash the candidate who’s objectively better on the topic, shitty as that may be.
Objectively less bad. Let's not pretend she's good on the topic in any way.
I’m real fucking tired of people trying to pretend that her failings here mean getting the objectively worse Trump elected on purpose or on accident is somehow a coherent idea, much less a good one.
And I'm tired of the constant insinuations that anyone who thinks that no Democrat should be supporting genocide must be a trumper.
Neither fucking party should be supporting genocide. This isn't perfect-world-everyone-gets-a-pony-and-a-blowjob-yes-even-the-women purity. This is the absolute bare minimum of what should be acceptable. It's the most disgusting shit ever to see the "good" party willing to be complicit in the eradication of a people, and to be met with gross hostility from your own party for daring to call it wrong.
I wonder who the next entry on Netanyahu's "then they came for" list is. Because one thing about genocide, it doesn't end unless it's stopped. It doesn't end when it runs out of victims in one group. The genocidal stay in power by lying to the people that if they just get rid of those that they designate to be the cause of all the world's ills, all their problems will go away. So when the victims are dead and the problems remain, they don't admit they're wrong; they're politicians, after all. They just find a new scapegoat for all the world's ills and continue as before. Ultimately everyone's on that list except the genocidal maniac at the top.
Calling her "pro-genocide" might very much suggest to people that they should not vote for her.
Point of fact, I called centrists pro-genocide, not necessarily Harris. Though it's not like calling Harris pro-genocide would make any centrist less likely to vote for her.
I feel like people are being very liberal with this "pro-genocide" term.
Not nearly as liberal as centrists have been for the past months with the "you don't support genocide so you must be voting for trump" accusation. Which you don't have a problem with.
Wow the amount of assumptions and speculation there. You're not interested in an honest conversation huh?
I find it interesting that people like you, who are "anti-genocide" can't help themselves from telling others how they think and feel. Might be a hint that your stance is dishonest.
Wow the amount of assumptions and speculation there. You’re not interested in an honest conversation huh?
Well, if you have a problem with the anti-genocide=trumper accusation, you're certainly not raising that concern with those who are making it.
Might be a hint that your stance is dishonest.
If you have so much difficulty imagining having objections to genocide that you assume dishonesty, I don't know what to tell you, and it's not like you would believe it anyway since it comes from someone who has voiced opposition to genocide without immediately following it with "but."
Well, if you have a problem with the anti-genocide=trumper accusation, you're certainly not raising that concern with those who are making it.
Ok, so in the absence of you knowing my stance you feel comfortable making assumptions. Seems like a logical path to truth. Ffs...
If you have so much difficulty imagining having objections to genocide that you assume dishonesty
You toss all nuance out the window to build this straw man. Genocide isn't the only thing in the world happening. And like I said in my last comment the "but" is because context exists. We could enslave them all and that would fix the genocide. I can only assume you're in favor of that because it would stop genocide, no buts.
Ok, so in the absence of you knowing my stance you feel comfortable making assumptions.
You are comfortable saying that I called Harris pro-genocide, which I did not do. I said that centrists on lemmy are pro-genocide, which you took to mean that Harris is pro-genocide.
Genocide isn’t the only thing in the world happening
Both the article and the thread are about genocide.
And like I said in my last comment the “but” is because context exists. We could enslave them all and that would fix the genocide. I can only assume you’re in favor of that because it would stop genocide, no buts.
Wouldn't be the only thing you've assumed about me that wasn't true.
She is arming a genocide and refuses to stop. How is that not pro genocide? If accurately describing her stance drives people away maybe she should change it
Ffs people are so naive.
And if she didn't change it, you don't vote for her and Trump wins how do you think that plays out? You think he really cares and will save more lives than Kamala.
This is picking the least worst option and people are saying not to vote for her because of this. While Trump is saying if he gets in people will not have to vote again. Get the best choice in then protest the issue, but if Trump gets in it's much worse.
Why can't you just let people be angry about a genocide and the people that are responsible for it. We can't help that speaking the truth about this enormous atrocity hurts the less evil candidate we have to deal with the fact that our government is supplying the means to murder children on a daily basis grow a fucking heart
Because addressing the problem the wrong way can make it worse. I don't want it to be worse. Demonizing Harris and given Trump a better chance hurts everyone, Gaza included. I'm trying to step back and look at the big picture and far reaching implications.
Your cold and unsympathetic demeanor has convinced me not to vote for kamala
Ok
You're bitching about shit that you refuse to try to change. You've already admitted that you haven't done anything to change the course.
If you don’t tell anyone in power that you dislike a policy then no one will know you don’t like it. Most of you don’t want to tell anyone in power how you feel, so it’s just text in the wind.
You only have yourself to blame.
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about
I'm not surprised.
Saying they are "pro-genocide" is beyond hyperbolic.
These type of extreme, over the top comments hurt way more than help.
These type of extreme, over the top comments hurt way more than help.
Hurt what? The tender fee-fee's of pro-genocide centrists? If they don't want to be called pro-genocide, they should stop supporting genocide. If they don't want to be called pro-genocide, they should stand firm on literally any other issue. But they fucking don't. Everything else is up for negotiation. Everything else is fertile ground for capitulation. Not genocide. That's the only thing centrists won't budge on.
Ugh, your just as bad as Trump and MAGA with these childish comments. Please at least try to have an adult conversation, if your "fee-fees" can manage.
Being "pro-genocide" means they like and want it. That's not the reality, and if you think she really loves genocide you're a lost cause.
And I agree we should fight it, we should stop genocide but right now, which side do you think it's more open to thatb conversation? Because it's not the side that wants to removing voting. So I say get her in to office at all costs to protect democracy and then work to fix that.
I'm just not ready to let the country burn to the ground over this and put us in a situation where we no longer even have a voice to speak out against it. People don't seem to understand what's at risk here in the US and the longer term effects it would have. Was in the middle east and Eastern Europe could become the norm.
And I agree we should fight it, we should stop genocide but
there's always a but.
right now, which side do you think it’s more open to thatb conversation?
From what I've seen on lemmy, no side is. Of course Republicans are all-in on genocide. Centrist Democrats are openly hostile to the very idea of abandoning support for genocide. Which is why I say that they're pro-genocide. You clearly have more of a problem with that than you do with the genocide itself. Know how I can tell? there's no "but" to negate everything before it.
So I say get her in to office at all costs to protect democracy and then work to fix that.
I'm already voting for her.
I’m just not ready to let the country burn to the ground over this
How many times do you intend to ignore that I'm voting for Harris?
there's always a but.
Yes because nuance exists. We could wipe out life on the entire planet, that would stop genocide. I'm guessing you're in favor of that then, any means justifys the end huh? Or we could maybe take over and enslave both sides, that could stop genocide. You might say "yah but we just turned them into slaves", to which I would say "there's always a but."
From what I've seen on lemmy, no side is.
This is pure dishonesty. In our convo alone I've said it's bad and we should work to stop it.
I'm already voting for her.
While painting her as a horrible person that no and vote should vote for. Unless your saying people should vote for a pro-genocide candidate now.
How many times do you intend to ignore that I'm voting for Harris?
I dunno, when are you going to acknowledge that while you're still voting for her you can actively turn votes away from her?
I dunno, when are you going to acknowledge that while you’re still voting for her you can actively turn votes away from her?
When you acknowledge that "pro-genocide" is a selling point on lemmy.
damn right
Harris could easily at this point make her own platform to run on that includes what the voters are asking for
her refusal to acknowledge the voters' concerns is very telling
Point me to the correct candidate please. Oh right, you can't because somehow it's my fault that the two party system took away literally every option you could possibly have. Maybe i should've have voted for the non genocide candidate in my primary. Oh wait my state didn't have one because i didn't need to choose a candidate. That's ok, no one else was running anyway because who the fuck can out raise the incumbents.
Seriously though, you are asking an impossible question and getting angry when you don't get the answer you want. No one wants to vote for genocide. No one wants this to be the situation.
We can be upset with her decisions and policies and still very easily acknowledge that one of the candidates is clearly worse. Trump has outright said Netanyahu should just finish the job. He wouldn't just not resist, he'd actively encourage it. It's like choosing between getting shot with a .22 or a .45 bullet to your leg. Both fucking suck, nobody wants to choose either, but if you're knowledgeable about all the consequences and paying attention, it's not a difficult choice.
You’re right.
And how people, who say they’re pay attention to the election, history and candidates, post the comments in these threads saying Harris is pro genocide and trump isn’t blows my mind.
The trolls are either more subtle of stupider.
A lot of countries had the Jews living in ghettos without the same rights of other citizens. This went on for centuries in Europe. Then along came hitler. He took antisemitism to a new level.
One is the status quote (a vote for Harris)
One is encouraging Netanyahu, the hardliners and the settlers. (A vote for trump)
and trump isn’t
[Citation Needed]
Pretty sure you're a liar who just made that up. Prove me wrong.
You specifically are pro-Uyghur genocide, though, we've all seen that. You are a pro-Trump MAGA, you want the US to collapse so China can gain more influence. You don't much care how many lives that claims.
You literally took it completely out of context. You couldn't possibly have read what it said and came to that conclusion unless you wanted to start shit.
Maybe you misinterpreted what I meant? I'm not asking for evidence that Trump isn't pro-genocide, I'm asking for evidence of posts claiming that Trump isn't pro-genocide.
What "context" am I missing here exactly, or what "conclusion" have I come to that I couldn't have come to unless I was trying to start shit? Seems like my interpretation is extremely straightforward, the person claimed that there are posters saying that Trump isn't pro-genocide, despite the conspicuous absence of any such comments in this thread, or linked to in their comment. So, they made it up, and are lying.
It's not even a choice imo, there's one electable candidate and one unelectable and I'm horrified that I've got justify it to a whatabout. I was simply saying that i acknowledge this whatabout is genocide. I wish i had better choices in my elections. Constantly bringing up genocide when right now at this very moment there's not a candidate who is going to win that's shown any inkling of stopping said genocide is contributing nothing to the conversation. That's a conversation about genocide that should 100% involve American politics. This needs to be a conversation about American politics that doesn't involve genocide because at this moment right now it adds zero value.
TLDR: you said it much better than i did lol
Sorry, but for many of us, genocide is our red line.
The number of "left" voters in this community that are doing their damnedest to get Trump elected never ceases to disturb me.
Yup. These types of articles and threads are designed to help Trump but muddying the water
But brah, it's totally acceptable to overreact when one candidate doesn't give us every little fucking thing we want, and MORE. They better cowtow, or I'm gonna keep being mean in comments because that's useful and productive for reealz.
I'll totally trash their bullshit because I'm not "working for the man", dawg. Kamala is just more bullllshiiiit or whatever stupid thing we people say. Palestine on ma dingdong, and JillStein4Prez ✌️💩💩
Do you genuinely think that people are being petulant or petty or something because they strongly object to their leadership supporting an ongoing genocide? Like this is some unreasonable "pet issue" or something?
Yes, because they are. Let's break it down.
Ergo: anyone who doesn't vote for Harris is a vote for Trump. Like it or not.
It is a dipole. You vote for fascism and some old bitch trying to save his own ass in a clear run towards dictatorship, OR YOU VOTE AGAINST THAT.
Jill Stein and RFK Jr are wasted votes. That's the fucking facts. Get with reality.
And if your sole vote is about Gaza, GUESS WHAT? Everyone else is waiting in line to sell weapons to Israel. You won't solve that issue by voting for fascist bullshit in the US as a revenge vote.
So yeah...I'd call that fucking petulant if you're willing to vote for fascism because you don't get your fucking way. Kick and scream and do whatever you want. It's not going the way you want in either case, so don't take the extra step to "stick it to the man" by helping vote Trump in.
Is supporting a genocide fascist? If I were trying to differentiate myself from a fascist opponent, I might simply stop supporting the genocide. Would you go to war if drafted? If you don't go, someone else will. That person might shoot children in the stomach, whereas you would more compassionately aim for the head.
I literally ran down a thread a few days ago asking for comment attackers to justify dropping Israel as an ally. Nobody came at me with a viable plan aside from "Uhhhh, just stop".
That's not how it works.
Please feel free to enlighten us on your solution though.
Is that the one where one side of the argument kept ignoring anything other than mindless unconditional support for genocide and only genocide and kept dropping little one-word dismissals like "next" and "BYE"?
Because the thread got nuked and I'm wondering if I have you confused for a different condescending genocide apologist. There are so many of them on lemmy.
Condition or cease weapons sales.
Following this logic: anyone who does not vote for Trump votes for Harris.
So a vote for third party is a vote for Harris?
No.
It's saying if you don't vote for the best chance to stop the threat to democracy (Trump) then you are, on some level, ok with what Trump will do.
Same applies the other way. If you think she's horrible for some reason but don't vote for Trump (the candidate with the best chance to beat her), then you're willing to accept her agenda.
Apparently you don't get logic. You're definitely a Stein voter.
I applied logic consistently. I see that is not appreciated here.
Imagine supporting genocide so hard that this is what you think of anyone who objects to it in any way at all ever.
Disgusting mindset.
The real world is not nice or perfect.
You take the least worst option. You're choosing between a 2/10 and a 7/10 and then upset that the 7/10 isn't a 10/10. That's never going to happen. I would love for it to, but that's naively idealistic.
I love when liberals actually put things in these terms because it's so much more honest than how they typically talk about it.
A candidate supporting genocide means they don't, "give us every little fucking thing we want, and MORE." A pro-genocide candidate is still a "7/10." Good, yes, drop the pretense and tell the truth that you just don't really give a shit how many foreigners get murdered, instead of trying to act like some bleeding heart. Exposing the contradictions like that is good.
Saying one is better than the other does not mean people don't care about people dying. That's extremely dishonest and arguing in bad faith. Ffs. If I have to cut off my arm or my finger, I don't like either but I can realize the best choice.
I could say that by going after Kamala for this you don't care if Trump wins, you only care about the middle east. But that would be dishonest, so I'm not making absurd leaps in logic, but that seems to be how your approaching this topic. If all you can do is argue in bad faith then there's no room for a conversation.
That's what I'm saying. Usually you lot wring your hands and say, "Oh, we really care so much about the genocide, it's just Trump is so much worse, don't you know." But then you have comments like these that call genocide a "little thing," and that it only docks a couple points off of how you'd rate a politician. So it reveals that all you posturing that you care is fake. You might prefer that it not happen, all else being equal, but it hardly matters to you at all.
A politician supporting genocide is like getting a different flavor of ice cream than what you wanted. This sort of honesty is rare, and it makes a much better starting point then the bullshit y'all are always pushing about how much you care. It's a waste of time trying to argue against premises a person is merely pretending to hold.
"You lot"? What lot am I lol, I'm curious what stereotypical bucket you've decided I'm in.
You then put "little thing" in quotes. I've never once called genocide a little thing, ever. This is more dishonesty. I said it makes her less desirable, that's reality, I expressed that with a 10 point scale. What do you want me to make her and Trump both 0/10, act like they're the same?
But somehow I don't care because I can see that all things considered one candidate is better than the other. You seem to tell me how I feel, who I am, and what I think. And now you're telling me this doesn't even matter to me? How transparent ...
Ok well I stopped reading the rest. Your not even making a point you're just making wild assumptions and telling me who I am. Well I can tell you what I've observed about you. You don't care about facts, reality, or nuance. You're a hyped up activist that has lost the plot all for this crusade. You're willing to let the world burn and attack anyone who doesn't think this is all that matter in the world.
You need to grow up and understand that wars and death happen throughout history. Most people don't like it, and since you can't stop making wild assumptions let me state clearly that I don't like it. But if we drop everything and hyper focus on every single war while letting corrupt politicians who want to stop voting and remove rights at home then it helps nothing. If Trump is in office not only does he not help either, but he causes more harm. The net amount of suffering in the world goes up, and that's what matters. I'm looking at the global stage and you can't seem to expand your mind to see the big picture.
Keep ranting and raving if you want. Tell me who I hate and that I love seeing people die or whatever, I don't care. You're a lost cause.
The comment you're defending did. Calling it dishonesty is, ironically dishonesty.
And I'm already voting for Harris. I still get to gripe about genocide, no matter how much it pisses off centrists to hear the blasphemy to the core of their worldview that is the merest suggestion that we shouldn't be supporting genocide.
Sure, and if you make people not vote for her, increasing Trumps chance to win, so be it. I suppose you're ok with that outcome.
I'd rather do whatever I can to get her in office then push for change. If US democracy falls apart with Trump then we have much larger problems than war in the middle east.
With my spoooooky mind control ray? You just want everyone who doesn't support genocide to shut up.
No, I'm acknowledging that how you discuss it can impact an election. Are you honestly so dense that you don't understand that?
And no, that's not what I want and it's not what I said, but please keep continuing this pattern of telling me how I feel and what I want. It seems you do have a mind reading ray, otherwise these claims would be extremely ignorant.
Then maybe give some indication that you're upset about the genocide and not just angry that people don't think it's a good idea for Democrats to support it.
I've said genocide is bad multiple times, what do you want a video of me crying? Jesus. I've said I'm against it, I've even said we need to push for change. You just don't want to hear that, I don't agree with you on every single point so you want to immediately other me and make assumptions about my stance.
You seem to be operating more off emotion than logic...
And I've said I'm voting for Harris multiple times. If you don't care and keep ignoring that, why should I extend greater courtesy to you?
While also saying that objections to genocide are making people vote for Trump.
Imagine being emotional when your party is supporting genocide and is openly hostile to any attempt to stop or even slow it. This is monstrous and disgusting and unconscionably immoral. No US politician of any party has any business supporting this, let alone Democrats, the "moral high ground" party.
The lion's share of your vitriol is directed at the critics of genocide, not at its perpetrators or enablers.
Because I've never said your not voting for her, simply that your comments could impact other voters. You've said I don't care multiple times when I've said the opposite. You seem more interested in a sick burn than being accurate.
Never said that once. I never said being against genocide means you're pro Trump. I've even said I'm against it. Holy crap you are dishonest.
Imagine trying to solve a problem with emotion not logic. That's exactly what you're trying to do.
Wrong again. I'm trying to prevent genocide being the middle east, you seem to have blinders on.
You said I was making them vote against her. Don't gaslight me.
You said I was making them vote against her. Don't gaslight me.
Can I not gripe about genocide without an immediate logical solution?
By directing your anger at the critics of genocide and not at its perpetrators or enablers.
Single issue voters. They don't understand wider implications of their actions, however well intended they are.
The way Harris refuses to court her own voting base never ceases to disturb me
Ftfy.
Its not on voters. Voters will do what they will do. Its on politicians who we vote for. Also I will be voting for Harris and also protesting at every event where I can to demand this apartheid and genocide to end.
Stop making Israel an election issue and worry about your own damn country. If you want to vote on Israel's future move there, become a citizen and vote. But you live in the u.s, put down your world police badge and vote on your country's matters. If not a single one of your leaders and candidates supports an issue, IT'S NOT AN ELECTION ISSUE.
America funding Genocide isn't an issue for you? Your moral compass works differently to mine
It is. It's why they're so adamant about silence.
Cool we'll just go ahead with Boycott, Divest, and Sanction then right? After all this is our country and we can decide where our tax dollars go.
Right?
The problem is that there are candidates that do support ending the genocide, like Claudia De La Cruz. The issue is that the US is a dictatorship that cannot be saved electorally, we can't simply vote in good candidates like Claudia De La Cruz, because the State is scientifically engineered to prevent positive change for the Working Class and maximize profits for the Bourgeoisie.
YOUR TAX DOLLARS WILL BE USED TO MURDER CHILDREN AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT NOW GO VOTE FOR THE GENOCIDER LIKE A GOOD CITIZEN
Funny, suddenly you all care that your money is being used to kill people. You cheered it when it was my people. Now you morally grandstand and wonder why some of us think you Americans are hypocrites
Yeah dude, we all got around a fire and jerked eachother off about it
Is everyone from your country exactly alike in political opinion? No? Neither are americans. I have been actively anti-war and anti-bombing since I've been an adult why are you making such bold assumptions based on 1 post I made which was ANTI-WAR ANTI-US EMPIRE ANTI-BOMBING
"Grandpa, what did you do when the genocides were happening?"
"Told people off for not being enthusiastic about voting for pro-genocide candidates"
"No, I meant the one in Sudan"
"There was one in Sudan? Well, I didn't do anything. You see, there were no Democrats to blame"
We aren't selling weapons for the genocide in Sudan.
Quit whatabouting in support of genocide.
So you're not actually against genocide. You just want someone else to supply the weapons. If China would just take over IDF arms shipments, then you could ignore Gaza too.
What the heck is this argument? "Well SOMEONE is going to supply the weapons for mass slaughter, might as well be us!"
The argument is: it makes no difference who supplies the weapons. The only thing that matters is who exerts the most pressure to get a ceasefire.
My government isn't spending my tax money to make me an accessory to the genocide in Sudan. You're just happy that your tax money is being used for a cause you support: the genocide in Gaza.
I don't think the person you responded to ever mention being happy about genocide. Why would you lie about that?
So they expect everyone else to be happy about genocide while being unhappy about it themselves? That makes no sense.
I trust that you'll also be calling all the people who accuse anyone who is even slightly unhappy about genocide of being trump supporters liars too, right?
When did the person you responded to say that anyone is or is expected to be happy about genocide?
So the answer to this is "fuck no, I only call people who don't support genocide liars."
No, I'm just calling you a liar. You are literally saying that person you're referring to said they are happy about genocide, and that others should be happy about genocide, which never happened. You are making up the words that were never said to emotionally support your view.
But I will also say, if you think that not voting for Harris in November will in any will help end the genocide, you're grossly mistaken, and such an action would be in direct support of Trump's presidential election. Interpret those facts how you will.
I'm still voting for Harris, despite the constant accusations of pro-genocide centrists to the contrary.
Oh, so you're going to go around and telling anyone that's voting for Harris and supports her over Trump, that they are happy and complacent with genocide, and then you're still going to vote for her like somehow you're different? Holy shit is that the most hypocritical thing I've read in a long time. That's quite the high pedestal you've put yourself on there.
Well, as long as your hands are clean then you have nothing to worry about.
Because the most important thing you need in Gaza is that you can look yourself in your mirror each day and that you can feel good about yourself.
One of us certainly does. You're fucking proud to be an accessory to genocide and want anyone who isn't to shut up.
"I told them to vote for the candidate that would finish the job, sweetheart"
The number of pro-genocide centrists who accuse anyone who doesn't love genocide as much as they do of being trumpers will never surprise me.
Maybe they just have a tendency to confuse the painfully obvious consequences of not voting or voting against Harris for your actual intended goals. Trump is clearly going to be worse for Palestinians since he outright said Netanyahu should just finish the job, so if you're on a clear and obvious path to getting someone even worse elected, we can't help but wonder if you don't actually care about the Palestinians because for all the bitching and moaning about Harris's stance, you're on your way to making the situation objectively worse.
I'm voting for Harris and have never, I want to stress this, absolutely fucking NEVER suggested doing otherwise.
You will of course completely ignore this because I dared to say that genocide isn't the only thing in this world that gives life meaning.
I'll admit I was mistaken given your comment was sandwiched between two people suggesting otherwise and given your suggestion that anyone tired of listening to those people try to discourage voting for Harris is pro-genocide. You may not be one of them, but you walk a very similar walk here, so I wouldn't be so surprised by the confusion.
Consider for a moment that some of the others that you've written off might not be trying to discourage people from voting for Harris but might actually be upset about genocide.
You do understand that there are people in the world who genuinely don't like genocide without ulterior motives, right? That it's actually possible to find genocide objectionable?
Because it sure fucking seems like centrists on lemmy don't want to hear anything that isn't glowing praise in the face of the news that Harris will continue supporting genocide to the same degree that Biden has.
Dude this all started because top comment knew this post was gonna be full of people discouraging voting for Harris, and then you jumped in and accused people of being pro-genocide for it. This is what I mean when I said you walk a similar walk. Anyone who disagrees with your perfect view of the world MUST be an enemy who directly wants genocide.
None of us like genocide. We're just tired of it being used to trash the candidate who's objectively better on the topic, shitty as that may be. I, at least, don't care if some posts about her are negative, but I'm real fucking tired of people trying to pretend that her failings here mean getting the objectively worse Trump elected on purpose or on accident is somehow a coherent idea, much less a good one.
And anyone who criticizes any Democrat's support for genocide gets a fucking earful of "you want Trump to win" accusations.
Ha. I wish we could link to specific modlog entries.
Objectively less bad. Let's not pretend she's good on the topic in any way.
And I'm tired of the constant insinuations that anyone who thinks that no Democrat should be supporting genocide must be a trumper.
Neither fucking party should be supporting genocide. This isn't perfect-world-everyone-gets-a-pony-and-a-blowjob-yes-even-the-women purity. This is the absolute bare minimum of what should be acceptable. It's the most disgusting shit ever to see the "good" party willing to be complicit in the eradication of a people, and to be met with gross hostility from your own party for daring to call it wrong.
I wonder who the next entry on Netanyahu's "then they came for" list is. Because one thing about genocide, it doesn't end unless it's stopped. It doesn't end when it runs out of victims in one group. The genocidal stay in power by lying to the people that if they just get rid of those that they designate to be the cause of all the world's ills, all their problems will go away. So when the victims are dead and the problems remain, they don't admit they're wrong; they're politicians, after all. They just find a new scapegoat for all the world's ills and continue as before. Ultimately everyone's on that list except the genocidal maniac at the top.
Calling her "pro-genocide" might very much suggest to people that they should not vote for her.
Point of fact, I called centrists pro-genocide, not necessarily Harris. Though it's not like calling Harris pro-genocide would make any centrist less likely to vote for her.
I feel like people are being very liberal with this "pro-genocide" term.
Not nearly as liberal as centrists have been for the past months with the "you don't support genocide so you must be voting for trump" accusation. Which you don't have a problem with.
Wow the amount of assumptions and speculation there. You're not interested in an honest conversation huh?
I find it interesting that people like you, who are "anti-genocide" can't help themselves from telling others how they think and feel. Might be a hint that your stance is dishonest.
Well, if you have a problem with the anti-genocide=trumper accusation, you're certainly not raising that concern with those who are making it.
If you have so much difficulty imagining having objections to genocide that you assume dishonesty, I don't know what to tell you, and it's not like you would believe it anyway since it comes from someone who has voiced opposition to genocide without immediately following it with "but."
Ok, so in the absence of you knowing my stance you feel comfortable making assumptions. Seems like a logical path to truth. Ffs...
You toss all nuance out the window to build this straw man. Genocide isn't the only thing in the world happening. And like I said in my last comment the "but" is because context exists. We could enslave them all and that would fix the genocide. I can only assume you're in favor of that because it would stop genocide, no buts.
You are comfortable saying that I called Harris pro-genocide, which I did not do. I said that centrists on lemmy are pro-genocide, which you took to mean that Harris is pro-genocide.
Both the article and the thread are about genocide.
Wouldn't be the only thing you've assumed about me that wasn't true.
She is arming a genocide and refuses to stop. How is that not pro genocide? If accurately describing her stance drives people away maybe she should change it
Ffs people are so naive.
And if she didn't change it, you don't vote for her and Trump wins how do you think that plays out? You think he really cares and will save more lives than Kamala.
This is picking the least worst option and people are saying not to vote for her because of this. While Trump is saying if he gets in people will not have to vote again. Get the best choice in then protest the issue, but if Trump gets in it's much worse.
Why can't you just let people be angry about a genocide and the people that are responsible for it. We can't help that speaking the truth about this enormous atrocity hurts the less evil candidate we have to deal with the fact that our government is supplying the means to murder children on a daily basis grow a fucking heart
Because addressing the problem the wrong way can make it worse. I don't want it to be worse. Demonizing Harris and given Trump a better chance hurts everyone, Gaza included. I'm trying to step back and look at the big picture and far reaching implications.
Your cold and unsympathetic demeanor has convinced me not to vote for kamala
Ok
You're bitching about shit that you refuse to try to change. You've already admitted that you haven't done anything to change the course.
If you don’t tell anyone in power that you dislike a policy then no one will know you don’t like it. Most of you don’t want to tell anyone in power how you feel, so it’s just text in the wind.
You only have yourself to blame.
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about
I'm not surprised.
Saying they are "pro-genocide" is beyond hyperbolic.
These type of extreme, over the top comments hurt way more than help.
Hurt what? The tender fee-fee's of pro-genocide centrists? If they don't want to be called pro-genocide, they should stop supporting genocide. If they don't want to be called pro-genocide, they should stand firm on literally any other issue. But they fucking don't. Everything else is up for negotiation. Everything else is fertile ground for capitulation. Not genocide. That's the only thing centrists won't budge on.
Ugh, your just as bad as Trump and MAGA with these childish comments. Please at least try to have an adult conversation, if your "fee-fees" can manage.
Being "pro-genocide" means they like and want it. That's not the reality, and if you think she really loves genocide you're a lost cause.
And I agree we should fight it, we should stop genocide but right now, which side do you think it's more open to thatb conversation? Because it's not the side that wants to removing voting. So I say get her in to office at all costs to protect democracy and then work to fix that.
I'm just not ready to let the country burn to the ground over this and put us in a situation where we no longer even have a voice to speak out against it. People don't seem to understand what's at risk here in the US and the longer term effects it would have. Was in the middle east and Eastern Europe could become the norm.
there's always a but.
From what I've seen on lemmy, no side is. Of course Republicans are all-in on genocide. Centrist Democrats are openly hostile to the very idea of abandoning support for genocide. Which is why I say that they're pro-genocide. You clearly have more of a problem with that than you do with the genocide itself. Know how I can tell? there's no "but" to negate everything before it.
I'm already voting for her.
How many times do you intend to ignore that I'm voting for Harris?
Yes because nuance exists. We could wipe out life on the entire planet, that would stop genocide. I'm guessing you're in favor of that then, any means justifys the end huh? Or we could maybe take over and enslave both sides, that could stop genocide. You might say "yah but we just turned them into slaves", to which I would say "there's always a but."
This is pure dishonesty. In our convo alone I've said it's bad and we should work to stop it.
While painting her as a horrible person that no and vote should vote for. Unless your saying people should vote for a pro-genocide candidate now.
I dunno, when are you going to acknowledge that while you're still voting for her you can actively turn votes away from her?
When you acknowledge that "pro-genocide" is a selling point on lemmy.
damn right
Harris could easily at this point make her own platform to run on that includes what the voters are asking for
her refusal to acknowledge the voters' concerns is very telling
Point me to the correct candidate please. Oh right, you can't because somehow it's my fault that the two party system took away literally every option you could possibly have. Maybe i should've have voted for the non genocide candidate in my primary. Oh wait my state didn't have one because i didn't need to choose a candidate. That's ok, no one else was running anyway because who the fuck can out raise the incumbents.
Seriously though, you are asking an impossible question and getting angry when you don't get the answer you want. No one wants to vote for genocide. No one wants this to be the situation.
We can be upset with her decisions and policies and still very easily acknowledge that one of the candidates is clearly worse. Trump has outright said Netanyahu should just finish the job. He wouldn't just not resist, he'd actively encourage it. It's like choosing between getting shot with a .22 or a .45 bullet to your leg. Both fucking suck, nobody wants to choose either, but if you're knowledgeable about all the consequences and paying attention, it's not a difficult choice.
You’re right. And how people, who say they’re pay attention to the election, history and candidates, post the comments in these threads saying Harris is pro genocide and trump isn’t blows my mind. The trolls are either more subtle of stupider.
A lot of countries had the Jews living in ghettos without the same rights of other citizens. This went on for centuries in Europe. Then along came hitler. He took antisemitism to a new level.
One is the status quote (a vote for Harris) One is encouraging Netanyahu, the hardliners and the settlers. (A vote for trump)
[Citation Needed]
Pretty sure you're a liar who just made that up. Prove me wrong.
You specifically are pro-Uyghur genocide, though, we've all seen that. You are a pro-Trump MAGA, you want the US to collapse so China can gain more influence. You don't much care how many lives that claims.
You literally took it completely out of context. You couldn't possibly have read what it said and came to that conclusion unless you wanted to start shit.
Maybe you misinterpreted what I meant? I'm not asking for evidence that Trump isn't pro-genocide, I'm asking for evidence of posts claiming that Trump isn't pro-genocide.
What "context" am I missing here exactly, or what "conclusion" have I come to that I couldn't have come to unless I was trying to start shit? Seems like my interpretation is extremely straightforward, the person claimed that there are posters saying that Trump isn't pro-genocide, despite the conspicuous absence of any such comments in this thread, or linked to in their comment. So, they made it up, and are lying.
It's not even a choice imo, there's one electable candidate and one unelectable and I'm horrified that I've got justify it to a whatabout. I was simply saying that i acknowledge this whatabout is genocide. I wish i had better choices in my elections. Constantly bringing up genocide when right now at this very moment there's not a candidate who is going to win that's shown any inkling of stopping said genocide is contributing nothing to the conversation. That's a conversation about genocide that should 100% involve American politics. This needs to be a conversation about American politics that doesn't involve genocide because at this moment right now it adds zero value.
TLDR: you said it much better than i did lol
Sorry, but for many of us, genocide is our red line.