It's June in Saudi Arabia. I'm surprised it's not way higher than that every time.
Actually it's June here too, what a coincidence!
Lies!
So what you're saying is that the earth is flat.
they do a good job cooling the place, the floors are cooled and there's a lot of water sprayed everywhere and lots of fans and stuff, with the number of people going there there needs to be ample preparation.
What is a pilgrimage without risk and suffering.
Allah works in mysterious ways.
Religion murdered these people.
The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years. Hyper-aggro heatwaves in June is a new thing however. It wasn't religion, it was climate change.
Climate change is caused by religion, specifically capitalism
Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly, oh no you don't belive they are communist do you? Handy.
But let's imagine a perfectly communist society, are workers all able to heat their house? Able to travel freely? Enjoy hobbies? If you answered yes to these then your either going to need magic or energy.
You can't just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad, unchecked consumption can happen in any system as can over production, ecological destruction, and all sorts of potential problems. I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I'm not going to pretend it'll fix the climate on its own.
Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly
Historically, planned economies have had a better track record preserving ecologies and building sustainable infrastructure. That's largely because the economic planners deal with long-term timelines (five year plans being the standard) rather than quarterly business cycles.
When you're running a logging company and you have to ask where you're going to get your next batch of trees in five years or fifty years, you engage in more sustainable harvesting practices than a for-profit fly-by-night that only cares about growing the number of trees chopped down after every round of investment is depleted.
You can’t just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad
Capitalists do a much better job of scaling up industrial infrastructure rapidly, because they do fixate on the short term much more narrowly. Profit-driven practices have rapidly converted our coal-based electricity economy to a natural gas economy. And private speculation has created a booming industry for new technologies - from batteries to cryptocurrencies to LLMs.
But when you run up against the limits of your natural resource supplies, that rapid growth isn't an economic advantage anymore. You generate far more waste than your communist peers. You spark lots of international conflicts attempting to increase your rate of extraction. And you end up with a very top-heavy unprofessional administrative state, as power consolidates into the hands of financialized aristocrats with little real expertise in the businesses they administer.
In the modern moment, that produces a lot of problems directly attributable to capitalist business practices.
I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I’m not going to pretend it’ll fix the climate on its own.
If the US were to adopt more Communist-championed energy, housing, and transportation policies, it would immediately benefit the global climate.
They all know the consequences and they think God will protect them from whatever.. Yeah, religion killed them.
The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years.
With people dying on it, yeah. Religion is why they're making the trip to the desert
Yeah that would be a good story and support some preconceived notions but Mecca has always been incredibly hot, you can't just rewrite history to suit the message you want to send.
Precisely. Mecca has always been incredibly hot and yet pilgrims have not been dropping like flies. Ostensibly because over the centuries certain common religious/pilgrimage practices have helped them cope with the heat. But when climate change moves the needle to 11, those centuries old religious/pilgrimage practices no longer work to protect people.
That is the message I'm trying to send; what's yours?
Mecca has always been incredibly hot
What even is the difference between 40°C and 50°C? They're both "incredibly hot" aren't they? Quit your complaining.
I have no idea if you're joking or not.
So let me ask you. When some Russians stripped people of their clothes and made them march into the frozen tundra, do you really believe those Russians werent guilty of murder, it was all the tundra's fault?
When a skydiver died skydiving, do you really blame the pilot of the airplane that got him up there? These are adults who choose to believe in fairytales
Did the pilot push them out without a parachute? Then yes.
If religion starts condemning people doing this, then they won't be responsible.
Oof
I don't see any references or sources at all in the page, and I couldn't find other news sites with comparable numbers, I call bullshit.
it was reported that there was 41 jordanians who died trying to get to mecca without permits and they slept outside in the sun so that part was true but inflated number, the Egyptians thing is just a lie.
The new deaths bring the total reported so far by various countries to 577, according to an AFP tally.
The do cite their source.
At least 60 Jordanians also died, the diplomats said, up from an official tally of 41 given earlier on Tuesday by the Jordanian government.
Do you think it's impossible that 41 people could die, reported on, and then more people die?
You can also read the AP or AFP reports, which are easily accessible.
What's wrong with you?
Why Egyptians? Is there a special reason that singled this group out for some reason?
Because Egypt and Jordan reported their numbers.
I read somewhere that people who fork over money for a special visa to Saudis Arabia have access to air conditioned stations along the way. Most likely the Egyptians are doing it unofficially, which is likely easier to get away being in the general region already.
Somewhere? You mean IN this very article.
I hadn't read this exact article but still commented because I've read about the same events in other publications.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion. Many hundreds or thousands of people die each year doing the pilgrimage, often times from crowd crushes, literally getting squished to death because there are so many people, or just exhaustion.
There are only a few short video clips on YouTube of the massive crowds and it is sort of unnerving seeing that many people in a moving crowd. Super weird what religion makes people do.
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
I do hope they find a way to make it safer because people will never stop doing it, but the whole concept just seems absurd to me.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
So much of the modern Saudi state sees the Hajj as little more than a massive tourist attraction. They're heavily invested in Disney-fying the experience, such that the maximal number of high-paying visitors can slide through the building frictionlessly.
Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren't supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You're intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.
What we're seeing isn't some toxic religious ideology that Saudi administrators need to cleanse for mass consumption. Instead, we're seeing a commercialization and stratification of ideology, by which elites get a bespoke Hajj experience and Saudi officials get to operate as gatekeepers of tradition at some astronomical markup.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
Well I think religion is one of the few things you can get enough uneducated/dedicated people to die in the hundreds from heat stroke without people being like"I should probably leave"
All the examples you gave, of course except being trapped on a bus, people would realize there is a serious issue and start leaving once the first handful of people died.
"I'm not leaving the theater till I see the end of Iron man 2, I don't care that half the theaters dead and I'm next!"
EDIT
the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event.
lol, weren't women not allowed to go alone until recently or still?
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
What a ridiculous statement. No it wouldn’t be better, but when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC? If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat.
Fact is that the Hajj claims thousands of lives every year, all in the name of religion.
Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren't supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You're intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.
Yea as long as you aren’t a woman.
Don’t be surprised that people are using religion to grift the gullible and exploit the poor - that’s what religion is best at.
The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks. It’s not like this was some freak accident. This was entirely predictable and this will defiantly continue to happen until protections are put into place.
when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC?
The Qatar World Cup killed a minimum of 400-500 project workers during construction.
If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat
I wish that were true. But we've got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.
The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks.
I couldn't agree more. Shane they're cheap ass fucks
It’s ironic that you cite a country where the government and ruling family are linked inextricably to Islam, but I digress.
I wish that were true. But we've got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.
Name any other ongoing event that kills thousands of people every single year like clockwork.
Not trying to argue or anything… I just think that Islam is a foolish religion in the same way that Muslims might think that Mormonism is a foolish religion.
Mormonism is stupid, but if they had an event that killed thousands of people from Utah every year I would like to think that at least OSHA would step in or something.
They should build a giant enclosure over the Kaaba so it can be air conditioned. Or at the very least put in those mister-fan combos all over the place that are in amusement parks.
Why stop there?
they do a pretty decent job cooling the place, the problems are outside the kaaba area though, as they can't cool down all the city,
the jordinians who died were sleeping in the desert as they were without permits and wanted to hide from the authorities.
the Egyptians though were not mentioned on any other news sites I know and I don't see any references or sources, so I call bullshit.
It's June in Saudi Arabia. I'm surprised it's not way higher than that every time.
Actually it's June here too, what a coincidence!
Lies!
So what you're saying is that the earth is flat.
they do a good job cooling the place, the floors are cooled and there's a lot of water sprayed everywhere and lots of fans and stuff, with the number of people going there there needs to be ample preparation.
What is a pilgrimage without risk and suffering.
Allah works in mysterious ways.
Religion murdered these people.
The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years. Hyper-aggro heatwaves in June is a new thing however. It wasn't religion, it was climate change.
Then the religion should adapt to the climate.
Good point. Muslims should actually start making this argument against hydrocarbon-based economies.
Climate change is caused by religion, specifically capitalism
Yeah and all the communist states are super ecologically friendly, oh no you don't belive they are communist do you? Handy.
But let's imagine a perfectly communist society, are workers all able to heat their house? Able to travel freely? Enjoy hobbies? If you answered yes to these then your either going to need magic or energy.
You can't just pretend capitalism is responsible for everything bad, unchecked consumption can happen in any system as can over production, ecological destruction, and all sorts of potential problems. I would love to transition to a decent type of communism but I'm not going to pretend it'll fix the climate on its own.
Historically, planned economies have had a better track record preserving ecologies and building sustainable infrastructure. That's largely because the economic planners deal with long-term timelines (five year plans being the standard) rather than quarterly business cycles.
When you're running a logging company and you have to ask where you're going to get your next batch of trees in five years or fifty years, you engage in more sustainable harvesting practices than a for-profit fly-by-night that only cares about growing the number of trees chopped down after every round of investment is depleted.
Capitalists do a much better job of scaling up industrial infrastructure rapidly, because they do fixate on the short term much more narrowly. Profit-driven practices have rapidly converted our coal-based electricity economy to a natural gas economy. And private speculation has created a booming industry for new technologies - from batteries to cryptocurrencies to LLMs.
But when you run up against the limits of your natural resource supplies, that rapid growth isn't an economic advantage anymore. You generate far more waste than your communist peers. You spark lots of international conflicts attempting to increase your rate of extraction. And you end up with a very top-heavy unprofessional administrative state, as power consolidates into the hands of financialized aristocrats with little real expertise in the businesses they administer.
In the modern moment, that produces a lot of problems directly attributable to capitalist business practices.
If the US were to adopt more Communist-championed energy, housing, and transportation policies, it would immediately benefit the global climate.
why are you suddenly attacking me lol
Here you go buddy: https://www.celinekeller.com/who-is-afraid-of-degrowth
They all know the consequences and they think God will protect them from whatever.. Yeah, religion killed them.
With people dying on it, yeah. Religion is why they're making the trip to the desert
Yeah that would be a good story and support some preconceived notions but Mecca has always been incredibly hot, you can't just rewrite history to suit the message you want to send.
Precisely. Mecca has always been incredibly hot and yet pilgrims have not been dropping like flies. Ostensibly because over the centuries certain common religious/pilgrimage practices have helped them cope with the heat. But when climate change moves the needle to 11, those centuries old religious/pilgrimage practices no longer work to protect people.
That is the message I'm trying to send; what's yours?
What even is the difference between 40°C and 50°C? They're both "incredibly hot" aren't they? Quit your complaining.
I have no idea if you're joking or not.
So let me ask you. When some Russians stripped people of their clothes and made them march into the frozen tundra, do you really believe those Russians werent guilty of murder, it was all the tundra's fault?
When a skydiver died skydiving, do you really blame the pilot of the airplane that got him up there? These are adults who choose to believe in fairytales
Did the pilot push them out without a parachute? Then yes.
If religion starts condemning people doing this, then they won't be responsible.
Oof
I don't see any references or sources at all in the page, and I couldn't find other news sites with comparable numbers, I call bullshit.
it was reported that there was 41 jordanians who died trying to get to mecca without permits and they slept outside in the sun so that part was true but inflated number, the Egyptians thing is just a lie.
The do cite their source.
Do you think it's impossible that 41 people could die, reported on, and then more people die?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/18/hundreds-of-hajj-pilgrims-die-in-mecca-from-heat-related-illness
You can also read the AP or AFP reports, which are easily accessible.
What's wrong with you?
Why Egyptians? Is there a special reason that singled this group out for some reason?
Because Egypt and Jordan reported their numbers.
I read somewhere that people who fork over money for a special visa to Saudis Arabia have access to air conditioned stations along the way. Most likely the Egyptians are doing it unofficially, which is likely easier to get away being in the general region already.
Somewhere? You mean IN this very article.
I hadn't read this exact article but still commented because I've read about the same events in other publications.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion. Many hundreds or thousands of people die each year doing the pilgrimage, often times from crowd crushes, literally getting squished to death because there are so many people, or just exhaustion.
There are only a few short video clips on YouTube of the massive crowds and it is sort of unnerving seeing that many people in a moving crowd. Super weird what religion makes people do.
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
I do hope they find a way to make it safer because people will never stop doing it, but the whole concept just seems absurd to me.
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
So much of the modern Saudi state sees the Hajj as little more than a massive tourist attraction. They're heavily invested in Disney-fying the experience, such that the maximal number of high-paying visitors can slide through the building frictionlessly.
Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren't supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You're intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.
What we're seeing isn't some toxic religious ideology that Saudi administrators need to cleanse for mass consumption. Instead, we're seeing a commercialization and stratification of ideology, by which elites get a bespoke Hajj experience and Saudi officials get to operate as gatekeepers of tradition at some astronomical markup.
Well I think religion is one of the few things you can get enough uneducated/dedicated people to die in the hundreds from heat stroke without people being like"I should probably leave"
All the examples you gave, of course except being trapped on a bus, people would realize there is a serious issue and start leaving once the first handful of people died.
"I'm not leaving the theater till I see the end of Iron man 2, I don't care that half the theaters dead and I'm next!"
EDIT
lol, weren't women not allowed to go alone until recently or still?
What a ridiculous statement. No it wouldn’t be better, but when was the last time you heard of nearly a thousand people dying at an F1 race event, or inside a movie theatre due to lack of AC? If that were happening multiple times per year we would shut down F1 /movie theaters in a heartbeat.
Fact is that the Hajj claims thousands of lives every year, all in the name of religion.
Yea as long as you aren’t a woman.
Don’t be surprised that people are using religion to grift the gullible and exploit the poor - that’s what religion is best at.
The Saudi government has an ethical responsibility to mitigate the risks. It’s not like this was some freak accident. This was entirely predictable and this will defiantly continue to happen until protections are put into place.
The Qatar World Cup killed a minimum of 400-500 project workers during construction.
I wish that were true. But we've got a history of being extremely callous with athletes and spectators alike.
I couldn't agree more. Shane they're cheap ass fucks
It’s ironic that you cite a country where the government and ruling family are linked inextricably to Islam, but I digress.
Name any other ongoing event that kills thousands of people every single year like clockwork.
Not trying to argue or anything… I just think that Islam is a foolish religion in the same way that Muslims might think that Mormonism is a foolish religion.
Mormonism is stupid, but if they had an event that killed thousands of people from Utah every year I would like to think that at least OSHA would step in or something.
They should build a giant enclosure over the Kaaba so it can be air conditioned. Or at the very least put in those mister-fan combos all over the place that are in amusement parks.
Why stop there?
they do a pretty decent job cooling the place, the problems are outside the kaaba area though, as they can't cool down all the city,
the jordinians who died were sleeping in the desert as they were without permits and wanted to hide from the authorities.
the Egyptians though were not mentioned on any other news sites I know and I don't see any references or sources, so I call bullshit.
How could Israel do this??????