Not mentioned in the article is that these systems are still illegal in the US.
Not everything in the world should be revolving around your stupid default country
This article is from the New York Times, a prominent US newspaper which writes primarily for a US audience. It's relevant for them to bring it up.
As a person from Default Country, I love this statement and I want it on a shirt.
I hate this stupid country as much as the next guy, but I still want to know if there's anything I'm allowed to do that might be good for the planet. Now I know I'm not allowed to do this because my stupid fucking country doesn't allow it, which is usable information.
do you know why they're illegal? is there some danger to them?
FTA:
The so-called plug-in systems involve routing the direct current generated by the panels to an inverter, which converts it to an alternating current. They can then be plugged into a conventional wall socket to feed power to a home.
So, yeah, almost certainly illegal in pretty much any grid-powered home in the US.
The basic problem is that if the grid power goes down the inverter can back-feed the grid enough to electrocute the people who are working to fix it.
Utilities require an approved isolation system of some kind that prevents that happening. They are pretty strict about this for various other technical and political reasons too, but evidently it is mostly a safety concern.
I've got some good locations at home for panels, and about 500W in panels that I use for camping, but the equipment I'd need to handle easily and safely consuming the power at home is kind of expensive (just running an inverter and a battery for an isolated system is easy enough, I've got all that, but it's not cheap to seamlessly connect it to my home power system). Would love to have a safe and approved system like what is described in the article.
Houses in Europe are connected to the grid too.
These systems are approved in Europe by utilities because they have failsafes implemented to prevent back feeding electricity in the grid.
The fact that these systems are still illegal in the US is a political issue, not a technical one.
[European utilities] have failsafes implemented to prevent back feeding electricity in the grid
Yeah but imagine if you could save money by not doing that? What are the odds that there's going to be cheap(er) personal mass power generation in the next few decades.
While it seems like they’d have to, the article makes no mention of such a fail safe. What does it do and how could it work?
These systems are approved in Europe by utilities because they have failsafes implemented to prevent back feeding electricity in the grid.
Sounds like Big Government Regulation of my God Damned Rights to do something on my house as I see fit! Europe's full o' damn communists and their stupid sun grabbin' electro-gibbits. That's why they'll never be the Greatest Bestest Country on da face a dis here Earf.
From what it sounds like, the safety is in the device not the grid. In case you haven’t noticed, there is a far lesser sense of personal responsibility to those around you in the US than Europe and I don’t know that I’d trust that nobody over here would fudge some bypass to power their house in an outage
Balcony solars are not able to back feed since they need the grid to synchronize, if you want one that is able to work in "island mode" you still need approval from the grid provider/one that isnt connected with the schuko connector.
Individuals owning their own means of energy production is obviously unamerican.
It's a feature of capitalism!
They are VERY DANGEROUS to conservatives and the flawed ideological rafts they're still clinging to.
Are they Chinese solar panels or good ol' American products?
They're from the Evil Bad Country That Does the Genocides. So... uh... idk.
Because fuck us apparently.
No, because you can kill a lineman working on the downed line, who mistakenly thinks the line is dead and has no idea that you're feeding power into it from your solar panel.
The inverters are built with an automatic shut off during grid outages, specifically for lineman safety.
I really feel like one of these store-bought solar panels wouldn't put out enough electricity to kill someone
They have enough energy, but they automatically turn off once the grid goes down because they need the grid to synchronize. Balcony solar panels are not able to work in "island mode", so no lineman is at risk.
You really don't need a lot of power to kill someone, especially with AC you really don't need much to induce ventricular fibrillation.
A 120W panel at full sunlight easily has enough power to kill someone. That's 1A at 120V, minus some conversion losses. 120W is pretty low end these days.
Those inverters can't backfeed, they need a grid to synchronise to.
Largely illegal by way of import. The Americans don't want cheap foreign panels dominating their still-nascent domestic solar industry.
These plugin systems are quite interesting, they allow renters for example to get some benefits of Solar without having to make permanent installs. The systems a lot cheaper than a full setup but obviously don't produce the same amount of power. I first saw them appearing in France and then since Germany changed the law to allow them its good to see it flourishing there too. This isn't going to save the planet but its a little step of improvement.
400 Euro isn't bad for all the fittings and inverter and the big benefit of these DIY systems is you just put them together and connect them to a standard wall socket. Constantly just saves you money on your bills when there is sunshine. Its also not enough power that its worth dealing with export tariffs but in countries where smart meters already exist it could be part of the mix.
You just plug them into an outlet? Is there no safety concern about backfeeding power, especially if someone turns off the breaker and expects a circuit to be de-energized?
They're not supposed to be grid-forming and should turn off if there's no grid voltage. And if you turn off a breaker you should always check that there's no voltage, you might've turned off the wrong breaker.
That's good then. Although I hope they also considered what happens if there's two of them on a circuit, because if the mains power goes off, but there's another panel on the same circuit, they'd each see the other's voltage on the line, right?
And yeah, you should verify that a circuit is de-energized after you flip the breaker, but I've seen both some real weird electrical work, and some electricians who aren't that careful.
They generate no frequency so the situation you fear is not possible.
The panels themselves are DC, but there's an inverter feeding 120V 60Hz (or whatever) into the wall, right?
Yes, but it's a system that is designed to sync with the frequency of whatever other electricity is out there, and it shuts of if the main shuts off. Almost all rooftop systems without a battery in the US are set up the same way.
Still, it's important to check that things you think are disconnected do not have current flowing through them. And this makes it more important.
Pure sine wave or modified? Modified (square wave) are not good for electronics, particularly computers.
Yeah that would worry me, plugging a power source into a wall socket.
I would much rather build an independent little cart with panels and a battery and a charge controller and an inverter and use it the way you would a generator. I would rather pay the power company full price to run my refrigerator and nothing at all to recharge my lawnmower than 98.3% for both.
How does that work with the fuse box? Like mine has a 100A fuse for the whole house, but a bunch of smaller fuses for e.g. downstairs, upstairs, lights, etc. Does it only work on the circuit it's connected to or what?
It can power across the circuits its all technically the same electrical connection within a house. These systems are relatively small due to the constraints of a typical standard plug and the amps it can support so they tend to be limited to less than half of the total power on a loop.
I put a small flexible light weight one up last year. Secured with steel washcloth line (it doesn't have glass or anything, just a plastic sheet with cells on it), the city replaced the meter to account for feeding in (not needed, I work home office and use up all of it in my apartment) cost me 600 or so last year, plugs into regular wall socket and has already lowered consumption by about 1/10th which is a solid chunk of money with current prices. I am very happy I get to do something as a renter, even if it will take years to pay for itself.
Anyone know if anything like this is allowed in the UK?
::: spoiler New York Times Media Bias Fact Check Credibility: [High] (Click to view Full Report)
New York Times is rated with High Creditability by Media Bias Fact Check.
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Not mentioned in the article is that these systems are still illegal in the US.
Not everything in the world should be revolving around your stupid default country
This article is from the New York Times, a prominent US newspaper which writes primarily for a US audience. It's relevant for them to bring it up.
As a person from Default Country, I love this statement and I want it on a shirt.
I hate this stupid country as much as the next guy, but I still want to know if there's anything I'm allowed to do that might be good for the planet. Now I know I'm not allowed to do this because my stupid fucking country doesn't allow it, which is usable information.
do you know why they're illegal? is there some danger to them?
FTA:
So, yeah, almost certainly illegal in pretty much any grid-powered home in the US.
The basic problem is that if the grid power goes down the inverter can back-feed the grid enough to electrocute the people who are working to fix it.
Utilities require an approved isolation system of some kind that prevents that happening. They are pretty strict about this for various other technical and political reasons too, but evidently it is mostly a safety concern.
I've got some good locations at home for panels, and about 500W in panels that I use for camping, but the equipment I'd need to handle easily and safely consuming the power at home is kind of expensive (just running an inverter and a battery for an isolated system is easy enough, I've got all that, but it's not cheap to seamlessly connect it to my home power system). Would love to have a safe and approved system like what is described in the article.
Houses in Europe are connected to the grid too.
These systems are approved in Europe by utilities because they have failsafes implemented to prevent back feeding electricity in the grid.
The fact that these systems are still illegal in the US is a political issue, not a technical one.
Yeah but imagine if you could save money by not doing that? What are the odds that there's going to be cheap(er) personal mass power generation in the next few decades.
While it seems like they’d have to, the article makes no mention of such a fail safe. What does it do and how could it work?
Sounds like Big Government Regulation of my God Damned Rights to do something on my house as I see fit! Europe's full o' damn communists and their stupid sun grabbin' electro-gibbits. That's why they'll never be the Greatest Bestest Country on da face a dis here Earf.
From what it sounds like, the safety is in the device not the grid. In case you haven’t noticed, there is a far lesser sense of personal responsibility to those around you in the US than Europe and I don’t know that I’d trust that nobody over here would fudge some bypass to power their house in an outage
Balcony solars are not able to back feed since they need the grid to synchronize, if you want one that is able to work in "island mode" you still need approval from the grid provider/one that isnt connected with the schuko connector.
Individuals owning their own means of energy production is obviously unamerican.
It's a feature of capitalism!
They are VERY DANGEROUS to conservatives and the flawed ideological rafts they're still clinging to.
Are they Chinese solar panels or good ol' American products?
They're from the Evil Bad Country That Does the Genocides. So... uh... idk.
Because fuck us apparently.
No, because you can kill a lineman working on the downed line, who mistakenly thinks the line is dead and has no idea that you're feeding power into it from your solar panel.
The inverters are built with an automatic shut off during grid outages, specifically for lineman safety.
I really feel like one of these store-bought solar panels wouldn't put out enough electricity to kill someone
They have enough energy, but they automatically turn off once the grid goes down because they need the grid to synchronize. Balcony solar panels are not able to work in "island mode", so no lineman is at risk.
You really don't need a lot of power to kill someone, especially with AC you really don't need much to induce ventricular fibrillation.
A 120W panel at full sunlight easily has enough power to kill someone. That's 1A at 120V, minus some conversion losses. 120W is pretty low end these days.
Those inverters can't backfeed, they need a grid to synchronise to.
Largely illegal by way of import. The Americans don't want cheap foreign panels dominating their still-nascent domestic solar industry.
These plugin systems are quite interesting, they allow renters for example to get some benefits of Solar without having to make permanent installs. The systems a lot cheaper than a full setup but obviously don't produce the same amount of power. I first saw them appearing in France and then since Germany changed the law to allow them its good to see it flourishing there too. This isn't going to save the planet but its a little step of improvement.
400 Euro isn't bad for all the fittings and inverter and the big benefit of these DIY systems is you just put them together and connect them to a standard wall socket. Constantly just saves you money on your bills when there is sunshine. Its also not enough power that its worth dealing with export tariffs but in countries where smart meters already exist it could be part of the mix.
You just plug them into an outlet? Is there no safety concern about backfeeding power, especially if someone turns off the breaker and expects a circuit to be de-energized?
They're not supposed to be grid-forming and should turn off if there's no grid voltage. And if you turn off a breaker you should always check that there's no voltage, you might've turned off the wrong breaker.
That's good then. Although I hope they also considered what happens if there's two of them on a circuit, because if the mains power goes off, but there's another panel on the same circuit, they'd each see the other's voltage on the line, right?
And yeah, you should verify that a circuit is de-energized after you flip the breaker, but I've seen both some real weird electrical work, and some electricians who aren't that careful.
They generate no frequency so the situation you fear is not possible.
The panels themselves are DC, but there's an inverter feeding 120V 60Hz (or whatever) into the wall, right?
Yes, but it's a system that is designed to sync with the frequency of whatever other electricity is out there, and it shuts of if the main shuts off. Almost all rooftop systems without a battery in the US are set up the same way.
Still, it's important to check that things you think are disconnected do not have current flowing through them. And this makes it more important.
Pure sine wave or modified? Modified (square wave) are not good for electronics, particularly computers.
The answer likely varies by model. Check.
The regulations allow only for one. If you want a bigger install than that you need individual approval I think.
Yeah that would worry me, plugging a power source into a wall socket.
I would much rather build an independent little cart with panels and a battery and a charge controller and an inverter and use it the way you would a generator. I would rather pay the power company full price to run my refrigerator and nothing at all to recharge my lawnmower than 98.3% for both.
How does that work with the fuse box? Like mine has a 100A fuse for the whole house, but a bunch of smaller fuses for e.g. downstairs, upstairs, lights, etc. Does it only work on the circuit it's connected to or what?
It can power across the circuits its all technically the same electrical connection within a house. These systems are relatively small due to the constraints of a typical standard plug and the amps it can support so they tend to be limited to less than half of the total power on a loop.
I put a small flexible light weight one up last year. Secured with steel washcloth line (it doesn't have glass or anything, just a plastic sheet with cells on it), the city replaced the meter to account for feeding in (not needed, I work home office and use up all of it in my apartment) cost me 600 or so last year, plugs into regular wall socket and has already lowered consumption by about 1/10th which is a solid chunk of money with current prices. I am very happy I get to do something as a renter, even if it will take years to pay for itself.
Anyone know if anything like this is allowed in the UK?
::: spoiler New York Times Media Bias Fact Check Credibility: [High] (Click to view Full Report)
New York Times is rated with High Creditability by Media Bias Fact Check.
Check the bias and credibility of this article on Ground.News:
- https://ground.news/find?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2024%2F07%2F29%2Fbusiness%2Fgermany-solar-panels-climate-change.html%3Funlocked_article_code%3D1.-00.0349.cWTL1gUdvaMj%26smid%3Dem-share
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I don't hate this bot.
But I don't love it. Maybe it's just too much info? Or formatting? I don't know.
Yeah, looks like the bot needs a little attention from the devs