Absolutely, in that the more software in a vehicle, the more likely it is to brick once a company folds. ICE cars are less likely since they don't have most of the software, but there are some that are computers on wheels still (and I'm sure the amount will continue to increase).
ICE vehicles have more software because they have more components. They have a transmission control module and an engine control module both of which have a lot of sensors to read and outputs to control. Much more than a simple EV would have.
Maybe just in terms of their electronics, such as updates and extended services.
I do wonder if things like heated seat subscription in EV's and ICE car's will keep functioning after the company disappears.
Probably not. But that's what happens when you buy Things as a Service.
Seems like that is ripe for a class action. If a piece of hardware ceases to function if you don't pay a fee but then the ability to pay is denied or removed the hardware should default to functioning. Come on EU, this is right up your alley, let's get some laws made over there so us lowly Americans can benefit!
It's not even a difficult law to pass, "if a cloud service goes out of business, its software becomes public domain. If the company is acquired, the sale must include a promise to keep the services operational for the full lifetime of the product unless the software is public domained"
The difficulty is in explaining what any of that means to the people who make the laws.
Depends on the manufacturer. A lot of American and European “smart” cars work fine without an internet connection. You need to use a key fob, and apps cloud maps or streaming apps obviously won’t work, but the basic driving, climate, and media stuff should work.
A lot of American and European cars actually kill your cloud service access if you don’t keep paying a subscription fee.
I have zero use for a cloud connected car lol.
Cloud connected cars are essentially what happens when companies refuse to admit smart phones are superior for 99% of the stuff they want their car to do, and the other 1% is subscription bullshit.
I think they keep an IOT connection alive to get the data they need from the car, they just kill your enjoyment of it. What happens if it would truly drop, your guess is as good as mine.
And that is with vested manufacturers. With startups it could be much worse.
As long as they're a smartphone on wheels the answer is no.
We want real cars again, even if electric.
My smartphone still works without service. Just as a tablet/computer device. Cars should be the same.
As a member of /c/FuckCars I say we don't want cars at all. We want robust public transportation, and bicycle paths. Entire cities designed around going green. People want to get angry at the Starbucks CEO for using a private jet, and reasonably so, but NOBODY wants to take responsibility for the toll each car puts on the environment. Yes, even the electric cars. That electric energy still has to come from somewhere.
That doesn't work for people like me who might drive 10 miles to work and then at the drop of a hat have to travel to another location 60 miles away, then have to travel back to the original location before the end of the day.
Exceptions can be made just like we make for all kinds of commercial vehicles.
It’s true what folks say: whenever someone mentions a bike path, everyone suddenly has to transport a refrigerator uphill in the rain.
Not advocating for the previous comment but commerce would adapt no matter the change. Your job would either change your job duties and or hire someone at the other locations or they would find a way for you to work remotely. Who knows maybe banning cars could be the push our society needs to build avatars that we can control from remote locations.
Uh I'm gonna go watch some avatar now. I'm stoned enough that it might be good.
That would work if we invested as much into public transit as into cars. This goes back to designing cities for public transit instead of cars. If we did that with the money we currently are putting into cars we could have high frequency metro lines where inner city interstate / highway routes and high speed rail for inter city interstate/highway routes along with frequent bus service in the cities/towns on the lines. We think public transit is inherently slow and unreliable but that's because we never invest enough money to make it fast and reliable.
I'm guessing you've never lived in rural America? I don't think you're grasping how big the world is for some people. I have to drive three hours to get from my urban home to my favorite mountain bike trail in the mountains.
No I haven't lived in rural America but most Americans haven't either. Most live in the suburbs, cities or towns. It's like saying people need to eat less sugar and we should stop using it for every food and people saying "what about the diabetics who need sugar" yeah they do but that's not the majority of people. We can make exceptions for them while also overhauling our food industry to remove this thing that's causing health problems for most people.
As for the mountain bike scenario ideally you would take a train to a town near the trail and then the town can have a shuttle up to the mountain. If we did fully invest in public transit this wouldn't add too much to your trip and has some other benefits.
This would be good for the park and wildlife in general as less traffic would make it easier for animals to migrate. Less roadkill
This would lower the amount of development needed in the park as parking lots wouldn't be necessary.
It would make mountain biking more accessible for people who don't have a car or can't drive.
It would make it more social, you could meet people on the shuttle on the way up, if there are regulars then a community could form.
It would reduce the amount of air and noise pollution.
The towns are too small to operate or afford shuttles to the nearly 2000 mountains in my state.
Nearly 2000 mountains, the amount of traffic in any given area is negligible.
There is almost no development and definitely no parking lots. You find an empty spot in the dirt near the trailhead. Usually no more than five or six cars around. Did I mention the part about nearly 2000 mountains to choose from?
Fair point. But we don't need the mountains to be more accessible. We don't need more people out destroying nature. Stay in your cities.
Nobody around here wants to socialize. We're getting the fuck out of society into the serenity and quiet of being miles away from everyone.
Your last point is complete bullshit. Increased accessibility means more people, more people means more pollution of every kind. The tallest mountain here does have a shuttle to the top and the locals don't like going there because it's always packed.
Yeah maybe there are are 2000 mountains, but how many have mountain bike trails? If there are trails then there is probably some organization maintaining them like the state or national park service who can also run the shuttles. Shuttles are also pretty cheap and can stop at multiple trail heads based off requests. You can also rotate where the shuttles go each day / week so if there's a more obscure trail/mountain then you can just wait until it comes up in the schedule. The towns would also probably want to run the shuttles as well since it will bring business to the area.
Ok, let's assume we want less people on the mountain, what gives you the right to go to the mountain then? Because you can afford a car? That doesn't seem fair. Also most people have a car so it's not restricting that many people. If we say only 30 people should go to the mountain a day that's way easier to enforce if we say only 2 shuttles of 15 are allowed. It's also fairer as who gets to go is just determined by whoever signs up first, as opposed to whether someone owns something.
I think many people would like to socialize. There's a loneliness epidemic and many people are looking for friends but don't know where to meet them. If I was looking for friends with common interests like mountain biking the shuttle up would be a great place to meet them. Just because I want to get away from civilization doesn't mean I want to get away from socializing, I hike regularly with groups of people and they mostly enhance the experience. If you aren't into that that's fine too, just put on your headphones ignore everyone and set off on the trail solo, nothing stopping you from doing that.
For the last point like I said usage can be controlled, even better then cars, but assuming the same usage a shuttle is less pollution then multiple cars. If like you said there are 5-6 cars at a particular trail head then one shuttle carrying all those people will cause less air and noise pollution and make it safer for animals.
It clear that you and I will never agree, but fortunately it doesn't matter because your pipe dream will never happen!
I'll drive my car and hike/bike these mountains every weekend and keep on loving the freedom and peace of mind that I get to live with. 'Cause Murica.
It will eventually have to happen, cars, including evs, are not sustainable, at least at the current levels of usage. If you look at any climate report looking into it the choice is between Americans driving a lot less or severe climate change. I hope murica will make the right choice but the more we tie cars to ideas of freedom and peace of mind the harder that choice will be. It will be tough to fight considering the tens of thousands of hours of car ads most Americans are exposed to pushing that narrative, so it will require just as much reinforcement on the negatives of cars, traffic fatalities, CO2 emissions, airborne micro plastics from tires, maintenance and repair costs, obesity, sprawled cities, etc.
It may not happen in our lifetime, or at least when your healthy enough to bike/hike , but eventually we'll have to transition away from personal cars. Id prefer to build towards that future now for the reasons listed above but if you want to delay that's fine, you'll just have to explain to your grandkids why you did.
Public transportation does not operate in the middle of nowhere where the closest store is more than half an hour away.
It will when we fund it. If 100% of the people require public transportation, then 100% of the people will want that transportation to be funded as well as it can. Kind of like how even out in the sticks you have plumbing, and drinking water. Imagine if only 10% of the state needed plumbing. It wouldn't get funded well enough to cover you guys out there.
We need to start smaller. Have you been to many remote, rural areas?
Name checks out. I'm all for public transportation, but to think that it will eliminate cars is nonsense.
This is not just something that can impact EVs. NFC door locks, smart infotainment, displays for gauges. None of that is EV specific these days.
These cars were clearly not designed to work without cloud connectivity and or an authenticated account. That seems bonkers. China is huge and has lots of remote areas. How were these cars going to work when they couldn’t phone home?
IMHO, a lot of cars have gone way overboard with “smart” features, but this manufacturer’s problems are the result of cutting corners and not designing for some common use cases.
Disposable cars is where we're headed. We allowed it with electronics, why wouldn't we allow it with cars?
At least the cars can be updated (at least until the manufacturer says fuck it). A ton of those 'smart' devices have no such capability so when a vulnerability is found it won't ever be fixed.
I'm looking forward to the "how to hack your Tesla to 100% operational functionality using a raspberry pi 9 and this dongle, run your car with your phone!" youtube videos (or whatever streaming service steps over its flaming corpse to replace) it in the next few decades
Should be happening now but I understand these things take time.
People have already been jailbreaking Teslas to unlock full self-driving, which is a $10k software patch.
Wait, a Tesla in its default configuration doesn't allow self driving?
Aside from cosmetic upgrades, all Teslas are essentially the same, just with certain features disabled/pay walled. So your base model 3 has the exact same battery as the top of the line version because it is cheaper to manufacturer them all that way.
That's just not true. Go to https://ev-database.org/ and compare the dry weight of the different models. You don't add 66kg going from standard to long range in software.
You're both right, some teslas were sold with their battery software limited. And able to be unlocked via DLC.
I'm pissed that even non-ev vehicles make it impossible/expensive to swap out the head unit for something you like.
Aw yeah we need the right to repair on that pronto. Like climate and infotainment should be totally different systems and control panels. A car should function 100% with the infotainment system offline.
Looking at Aging Wheels YouTube channel with his fleet of non working Wheegos, the answer is no, they won't.
I look forward to the day when my refrigerator stops working because the company went bankrupt, or because their server was down.
Samsung are pretty close.
That's not on purpose they are just defective shit boxes engineered by the cheapest guy on fiverr
Scary to think that the answer will be no.
Makes you wonder about ice cars too.
Absolutely, in that the more software in a vehicle, the more likely it is to brick once a company folds. ICE cars are less likely since they don't have most of the software, but there are some that are computers on wheels still (and I'm sure the amount will continue to increase).
ICE vehicles have more software because they have more components. They have a transmission control module and an engine control module both of which have a lot of sensors to read and outputs to control. Much more than a simple EV would have.
Maybe just in terms of their electronics, such as updates and extended services.
I do wonder if things like heated seat subscription in EV's and ICE car's will keep functioning after the company disappears.
Probably not. But that's what happens when you buy Things as a Service.
Seems like that is ripe for a class action. If a piece of hardware ceases to function if you don't pay a fee but then the ability to pay is denied or removed the hardware should default to functioning. Come on EU, this is right up your alley, let's get some laws made over there so us lowly Americans can benefit!
It's not even a difficult law to pass, "if a cloud service goes out of business, its software becomes public domain. If the company is acquired, the sale must include a promise to keep the services operational for the full lifetime of the product unless the software is public domained"
The difficulty is in explaining what any of that means to the people who make the laws.
Depends on the manufacturer. A lot of American and European “smart” cars work fine without an internet connection. You need to use a key fob, and apps cloud maps or streaming apps obviously won’t work, but the basic driving, climate, and media stuff should work.
A lot of American and European cars actually kill your cloud service access if you don’t keep paying a subscription fee.
I have zero use for a cloud connected car lol.
Cloud connected cars are essentially what happens when companies refuse to admit smart phones are superior for 99% of the stuff they want their car to do, and the other 1% is subscription bullshit.
I think they keep an IOT connection alive to get the data they need from the car, they just kill your enjoyment of it. What happens if it would truly drop, your guess is as good as mine.
And that is with vested manufacturers. With startups it could be much worse.
As long as they're a smartphone on wheels the answer is no.
We want real cars again, even if electric.
My smartphone still works without service. Just as a tablet/computer device. Cars should be the same.
As a member of /c/FuckCars I say we don't want cars at all. We want robust public transportation, and bicycle paths. Entire cities designed around going green. People want to get angry at the Starbucks CEO for using a private jet, and reasonably so, but NOBODY wants to take responsibility for the toll each car puts on the environment. Yes, even the electric cars. That electric energy still has to come from somewhere.
That doesn't work for people like me who might drive 10 miles to work and then at the drop of a hat have to travel to another location 60 miles away, then have to travel back to the original location before the end of the day.
Exceptions can be made just like we make for all kinds of commercial vehicles.
It’s true what folks say: whenever someone mentions a bike path, everyone suddenly has to transport a refrigerator uphill in the rain.
Not advocating for the previous comment but commerce would adapt no matter the change. Your job would either change your job duties and or hire someone at the other locations or they would find a way for you to work remotely. Who knows maybe banning cars could be the push our society needs to build avatars that we can control from remote locations.
Uh I'm gonna go watch some avatar now. I'm stoned enough that it might be good.
That would work if we invested as much into public transit as into cars. This goes back to designing cities for public transit instead of cars. If we did that with the money we currently are putting into cars we could have high frequency metro lines where inner city interstate / highway routes and high speed rail for inter city interstate/highway routes along with frequent bus service in the cities/towns on the lines. We think public transit is inherently slow and unreliable but that's because we never invest enough money to make it fast and reliable.
I'm guessing you've never lived in rural America? I don't think you're grasping how big the world is for some people. I have to drive three hours to get from my urban home to my favorite mountain bike trail in the mountains.
No I haven't lived in rural America but most Americans haven't either. Most live in the suburbs, cities or towns. It's like saying people need to eat less sugar and we should stop using it for every food and people saying "what about the diabetics who need sugar" yeah they do but that's not the majority of people. We can make exceptions for them while also overhauling our food industry to remove this thing that's causing health problems for most people.
As for the mountain bike scenario ideally you would take a train to a town near the trail and then the town can have a shuttle up to the mountain. If we did fully invest in public transit this wouldn't add too much to your trip and has some other benefits.
This would be good for the park and wildlife in general as less traffic would make it easier for animals to migrate. Less roadkill
This would lower the amount of development needed in the park as parking lots wouldn't be necessary.
It would make mountain biking more accessible for people who don't have a car or can't drive.
It would make it more social, you could meet people on the shuttle on the way up, if there are regulars then a community could form.
It would reduce the amount of air and noise pollution.
Yeah maybe there are are 2000 mountains, but how many have mountain bike trails? If there are trails then there is probably some organization maintaining them like the state or national park service who can also run the shuttles. Shuttles are also pretty cheap and can stop at multiple trail heads based off requests. You can also rotate where the shuttles go each day / week so if there's a more obscure trail/mountain then you can just wait until it comes up in the schedule. The towns would also probably want to run the shuttles as well since it will bring business to the area.
Ok, let's assume we want less people on the mountain, what gives you the right to go to the mountain then? Because you can afford a car? That doesn't seem fair. Also most people have a car so it's not restricting that many people. If we say only 30 people should go to the mountain a day that's way easier to enforce if we say only 2 shuttles of 15 are allowed. It's also fairer as who gets to go is just determined by whoever signs up first, as opposed to whether someone owns something.
I think many people would like to socialize. There's a loneliness epidemic and many people are looking for friends but don't know where to meet them. If I was looking for friends with common interests like mountain biking the shuttle up would be a great place to meet them. Just because I want to get away from civilization doesn't mean I want to get away from socializing, I hike regularly with groups of people and they mostly enhance the experience. If you aren't into that that's fine too, just put on your headphones ignore everyone and set off on the trail solo, nothing stopping you from doing that.
For the last point like I said usage can be controlled, even better then cars, but assuming the same usage a shuttle is less pollution then multiple cars. If like you said there are 5-6 cars at a particular trail head then one shuttle carrying all those people will cause less air and noise pollution and make it safer for animals.
It clear that you and I will never agree, but fortunately it doesn't matter because your pipe dream will never happen!
I'll drive my car and hike/bike these mountains every weekend and keep on loving the freedom and peace of mind that I get to live with. 'Cause Murica.
It will eventually have to happen, cars, including evs, are not sustainable, at least at the current levels of usage. If you look at any climate report looking into it the choice is between Americans driving a lot less or severe climate change. I hope murica will make the right choice but the more we tie cars to ideas of freedom and peace of mind the harder that choice will be. It will be tough to fight considering the tens of thousands of hours of car ads most Americans are exposed to pushing that narrative, so it will require just as much reinforcement on the negatives of cars, traffic fatalities, CO2 emissions, airborne micro plastics from tires, maintenance and repair costs, obesity, sprawled cities, etc.
It may not happen in our lifetime, or at least when your healthy enough to bike/hike , but eventually we'll have to transition away from personal cars. Id prefer to build towards that future now for the reasons listed above but if you want to delay that's fine, you'll just have to explain to your grandkids why you did.
Public transportation does not operate in the middle of nowhere where the closest store is more than half an hour away.
It will when we fund it. If 100% of the people require public transportation, then 100% of the people will want that transportation to be funded as well as it can. Kind of like how even out in the sticks you have plumbing, and drinking water. Imagine if only 10% of the state needed plumbing. It wouldn't get funded well enough to cover you guys out there.
We need to start smaller. Have you been to many remote, rural areas?
Name checks out. I'm all for public transportation, but to think that it will eliminate cars is nonsense.
This is not just something that can impact EVs. NFC door locks, smart infotainment, displays for gauges. None of that is EV specific these days.
These cars were clearly not designed to work without cloud connectivity and or an authenticated account. That seems bonkers. China is huge and has lots of remote areas. How were these cars going to work when they couldn’t phone home?
IMHO, a lot of cars have gone way overboard with “smart” features, but this manufacturer’s problems are the result of cutting corners and not designing for some common use cases.
Disposable cars is where we're headed. We allowed it with electronics, why wouldn't we allow it with cars?
At least the cars can be updated (at least until the manufacturer says fuck it). A ton of those 'smart' devices have no such capability so when a vulnerability is found it won't ever be fixed.
I'm looking forward to the "how to hack your Tesla to 100% operational functionality using a raspberry pi 9 and this dongle, run your car with your phone!" youtube videos (or whatever streaming service steps over its flaming corpse to replace) it in the next few decades
Should be happening now but I understand these things take time.
People have already been jailbreaking Teslas to unlock full self-driving, which is a $10k software patch.
Wait, a Tesla in its default configuration doesn't allow self driving?
Aside from cosmetic upgrades, all Teslas are essentially the same, just with certain features disabled/pay walled. So your base model 3 has the exact same battery as the top of the line version because it is cheaper to manufacturer them all that way.
That's just not true. Go to https://ev-database.org/ and compare the dry weight of the different models. You don't add 66kg going from standard to long range in software.
You're both right, some teslas were sold with their battery software limited. And able to be unlocked via DLC.
I'm pissed that even non-ev vehicles make it impossible/expensive to swap out the head unit for something you like.
Aw yeah we need the right to repair on that pronto. Like climate and infotainment should be totally different systems and control panels. A car should function 100% with the infotainment system offline.
Looking at Aging Wheels YouTube channel with his fleet of non working Wheegos, the answer is no, they won't.
I look forward to the day when my refrigerator stops working because the company went bankrupt, or because their server was down.
Samsung are pretty close.
That's not on purpose they are just defective shit boxes engineered by the cheapest guy on fiverr