This is what the U.S. is getting by aiding Ukraine

jeffw@lemmy.world to politics @lemmy.world – 170 points –
washingtonpost.com

The good news is that Congress, at the last minute, averted a government shutdown, at least for now. The bad news is that billions of dollars of funding for Ukraine were stripped from the continuing resolution as a sop to House Republicans who want to cut off the embattled democracy altogether.

Aid to Ukraine still has the support of roughly two-thirds of both houses — something you can’t say about many other issues — but a dangerous milestone was reached last week when more House Republicans voted against Ukraine aid (117) than voted for it (101). That reflects a broader turn in Republican opinion, with only 39 percent of Republicans saying in a recent CBS News-YouGov poll that the United States should send weapons to Ukraine and 61 percent saying it shouldn’t.

To do the right thing for Ukraine, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) will now have to go against a growing portion of the Republican base. It is, nevertheless, imperative that he show a modicum of backbone and bring a Ukraine funding bill to the floor immediately. It is not only the right thing to do morally — we have an obligation to support a fellow democracy fending off an unprovoked invasion — but it also is the right thing to do strategically. In fact, it is hard to think of any U.S. foreign policy initiative since the end of the Cold War that has been more successful or more important than U.S. aid to Ukraine.

Yes, in absolute terms, Washington has given a lot of money to Ukraine: $76.8 billion in total assistance, including $46.6 billion in military aid. But that’s a tiny portion — just 0.65 percent — of the total federal spending in the past two years of $11.8 trillion. With U.S. and other Western aid, Ukraine has been able to stop the Russian onslaught and begin to roll it back.

In the process, Russia has lost an estimated 120,000 soldiers and 170,000 to 180,000 have been injured. Russia has also lost an estimated 2,329 tanks, 2,817 infantry fighting vehicles, 2,868 trucks and jeeps, 354 armored personnel carriers, 538 self-propelled artillery vehicles, 310 towed artillery pieces, 92 fixed-wing aircraft and 106 helicopters.

The Russian armed forces have been devastated, thereby reducing the risk to front-line NATO states such as Poland and the Baltic republics that the United States is treaty-bound to protect. And all of that has been accomplished without having to put a single U.S. soldier at risk on the front lines.

That’s an incredible investment, especially compared with U.S. involvement in other recent wars. In Afghanistan and Iraq, both launched under a Republican administration, almost 7,000 U.S. troops were killed and more than 50,000 were wounded while Washington spent more than $8 trillion — only to see Afghanistan fall to the Taliban and Iraq come under Iranian influence.

Republicans who claim to worry so much about corruption in Ukraine, even though there is no evidence that any U.S. aid has been misused, seldom had anything to say about the truly pervasive corruption in Afghanistan and Iraq, which siphoned off billions in U.S. taxpayer dollars. A forensic accountant who audited U.S. spending in Afghanistan from 2010 to 2012 found that about 40 percent of $106 billion in Defense Department contracts “ended up in the pockets of insurgents, criminal syndicates or corrupt Afghan officials.” Yet Republicans never proposed to end funding for that war.

The war in Ukraine also stacks up impressively compared with other proxy wars that Republicans, under the Reagan administration, did so much to support — from Afghanistan to Nicaragua to Mozambique. In Ukraine, we don’t have to worry about our weapons going to anti-American religious fundamentalists such as the Haqqani network. We are funding a free people fighting to preserve a liberal democracy that will be a stalwart member of the Western community for years to come.

Republicans often complain that the United States is doing the heavy lifting and our European allies aren’t doing their fair share. That’s not true in the case of Ukraine. This summer, the Kiel Institute for the World Economy reported that “Europe has clearly overtaken the United States in promised aid to Ukraine, with total European commitments now being twice as large.” Yet, despite the growing European assistance, Ukraine still relies on U.S. support; even combined, Europe and the United States can barely keep up with Ukraine’s need for artillery ammunition and other munitions as it wages an industrialized war of attrition.

By funding Ukraine, we are strengthening transatlantic ties and keeping faith with our closest allies. If we were to cut off Ukraine, that would be an unspeakable betrayal not only of the people of Ukraine but also of all of Europe. Stopping Russian aggression is an existential issue for the entire continent. Cutting off Ukraine would mean that the United States is turning its back on its post-1945 security commitment to Europe — a commitment that has underpinned the longest period without a major-power conflict since the emergence of the modern state system in the 17th century.

Supporting Ukraine is also needed to deter Chinese aggression. Some on the right claim that the war in Ukraine is a distraction from the Pacific, but that’s not how the Taiwanese see it. Taiwan’s representative in Washington noted this year that supporting Ukraine — as Taiwan is doing with humanitarian assistance — “will help to deter any consideration or miscalculation that an invasion can be conducted unpunished.”

Many Republicans understand that. “It’s certainly not the time to go wobbly,” Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said recently. But the MAGA wing of the party, led by former president Donald Trump, has turned against the war because of its isolationism and soft spot for Russian dictator Vladimir Putin, a war criminal whom some on the right ludicrously see as a champion of Christian values.

Ironically, many on the right claim to want a negotiated solution to the conflict while doing everything possible to ensure that Putin has no incentive to negotiate seriously. The more Republicans do to endanger aid to Ukraine, the more likely Putin is to assume he can outlast the West and keep fighting.

Once upon a time, Republicans understood the need to resist the “evil empire.” As a former Republican, it sickens me to see so many Republicans so eager to do Moscow’s bidding. But, mercifully, the vast majority of members of Congress — including many Republicans — still staunchly support Ukraine. McCarthy cannot let the MAGA caucus block the best investment the United States can make in its own security.

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Republicans: we have to spend our money on Americans first

Also Republicans: fuck you, no more student load help

Republicans don't want to help all Americans, just their own class.

Not even that they'll gladly sell each other out if it can benefit their personal business interests.

Okay, fine. Then let's spend our money on healthcare for Americans.

No? Then what about green technologies to keep us competitive, create jobs, and help the environment? Also no?

Oh, I see. We should spend the money on payments to the wealthy in the hopes that they would let a few pennies spill out of their pockets and be too lazy to pick them up before the poor people scramble to get them. Got it.

spend our money on Americans first

Well that's actually true! It's just that they want it spent on a very small and select group of Americans first.

You can't call yourself a true patriot if you don't relish the thought of an old adversary perishing in a war against someone else. Its gotta be obvious the Republican party is compromised at this point, especially after allegations over the years.

Nationalism doesn’t usually end well.

They are self ascribed patriots. I'm just calling them out. Please, don't start a nationalist party.

Why couldn't we have helped Russia after the collapse of the USSR instead of letting it languish and turn into what it has become today? That would've saved a lot of lives, but I suppose then you couldn't have that eternal enemy to show off how much of a patriot you are.

We could have, and we should have. But those choices were made by different people than us. Maybe if we had made some other choices instead of just nationalist ones we could have had an ally by now. But as you said, we'd have no eternal enemy to point to, and imperialists love state enemies.

The choices being made right now are being made by different people than us (the literal us). Voters largely have little say in US foreign policy.

Voters absolutely have a say in foreign policy because they absolutely have control over how their representatives vote. If anything, they have undue influence due to rampant gerrymandering.

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell because I've seen your other posts and let's just say your takes are really something, so it's hard to tell if you're being serious.

I wouldn't call the terrible market reforms that created the oligarchs "help". That "broken people culturally inured" line is nonsense. You're like those racists who think black people are genetically programmed for crime.

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You can't call yourself human if you relish the thought of war.

Helping Ukraine isn't relishing war. Yes, peace would be better, but that's entirely in Russia's control. If Mexico invaded the US and seized a state or two, does anyone think that the US would just sign a peace treaty and give up those states? (I mean, maybe if it was Mississippi or Alabama.) No, we'd strike back until we took back every inch of territory that we had lost.

Russia could have peace tomorrow by pulling their troops out and agreeing to never again invade a sovereign country. (I'm sure there were be more conditions before it would be a lasting peace, but that would be a great start.) Russia's idea of "peace," though, is "Ukraine becomes part of Russia and everyone in Ukraine who doesn't like this is tortured, raped, and then killed."

It's a false equivalence to pretend that fighting to free your country from an invading force is the same as fighting as part of the invading force.

We certainly aren't fighting to free our country!

We're giving Ukraine juuust enough support to never lose, but not enough to ever win. The goal isn't to free Ukraine, the goal is the weaken Russia.

America would prefer this war never ends.

You can't call yourself human if you're not willing to fight monsters.

You don't have to relish war, but you can be hopeful about the outcome. The unfortunate reality is, to keep peace you must be ready for war.

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They don't want a weak Russia. They want a strong Russia. Because that's what Putin wants and Putin now controls their party as much as Trump does.

Remember when a bunch of high profile Republicans went on a trip to Moscow and tried to get an audience with Putin on Independence Day?

The republican traitor filth are owned by the blyats. That’s why they can’t acknowledge the obvious: Western interests, and especially American interests, are perfectly aligned with helping Ukraine. We’re getting another century of American-led Western dominance by destroying the pathological russian state. And at a steep discount, compared to direct action.

$10b would provide meals for kids in schools and eliminate school food debt. We did it for one year during COVID but now lunch ladies get to go back to debt collection. Just to put these figures in perspective. The US govt doesn't care about its own people.

$10b is nothing, a rounding error in the federal budget. It's a sad day when you come to the realization that people go hungry and homeless simply because we allow it. Both problems could be solved in under a year if we had the will to do so.

That said, Ukraine is worth supporting, it's definitely not an either/or situation.

In Afghanistan and Iraq ... Washington spent more than $8 trillion

Never let anyone say we (America) don't have the money do to things. That's bullshit. If this country could spend $8 trillion dollars on a war that accomplished nothing, we can spend money to help those that need it.

Weakening the enemy and getting Intel at a fraction of the cost with someone else's boots on the ground. Then there's looking good on the world stage and strengthening relationships with allies. They're also getting rid of old gear to swap for new. It's cheaper giving it away then dismantling it.

This isn't "world police" bullshit. The US is taking advantage it.

Exactly. And if this war does expand to NATO vs Russia (which segments of Russia seem to really want and others rightfully fear), it will involve fresh NATO troops with tons of weapons and intel as to how to use them for maximum damage vs tired Russian troops with limited supplies/ammo.

Assuming such a hypothetical scenario doesn't turn nuclear (which, admittedly, is a big assumption), the US/NATO would be a much better position for having supported Ukraine. In fact, it might prevent such a war because Russia might have been so weakened by the Ukraine conflict that they don't even try to attack a NATO country - knowing that they'll be soundly defeated.

This is "world police" shit and we should be the world police.

Yeah, why should I care if another family’s son dies for “freedom?” /s

someone else’s boots on the ground

That it absolutely fucking disgusting! Saying the death of someone else is ok so the profits of companies like Blackrock, Boeing, Lockheed, etc are protected. You have lowered the value of someone else's life to chattel

This is framing it in the terms Republicans say they care about. "It's too expensive!" "No, it's a fucking bargain. What else you got?"

Chattel is usually less expensive because they are not seen as human with human rights. If the US wants to go to war they need to send their own people to die

They aren't chattel. They are people fighting to defend their homeland from an aggressor nation. Are you suggesting Ukrainians would be better off under the Russian yoke? Look at how the Russians treat their own citizens. Let's not pretend we are forcing them to defend themselves. We're are enabling it.

If the US and the terrorist organization NATO stayed out of Ukriane there wouldn't be war. If the US honored their agreements there wouldn't be war. As the NATO chief recently pointed out this war is 100% provoked by NATO and the US

This doesn't sound ridiculous at all, CommieTrash

Yeah they just outed themselves as a troll not to be taken seriously. I need a Lemmy app that lets me tag people with a note so I have an alternative other than blocking.

Wow that is some hilarious commie logic. Can you post an archive link of more articles so I can laugh a lot without giving them traffic?

Liberals love supporting fascists and their Nazis

You gonna link me archived articles or what?

Get your messages out there! Spread the word! Lmao

terrorist organization NATO

Lmao

Oooh look at me. I'm CommieTrash and I'm outraged!!!

I'm not outraged, I'm disgusted by BlueMAGA posing as progressive.

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds

Oh yes. You're outrage is palpable. Always outraged. Leading the outrage rush on whatever the outrage topic of the day, right ya fucking retard??

This is the best summary I could come up with:


The bad news is that billions of dollars of funding for Ukraine were stripped from the continuing resolution as a sop to House Republicans who want to cut off the embattled democracy altogether.

To do the right thing for Ukraine, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) will now have to go against a growing portion of the Republican base.

It is, nevertheless, imperative that he show a modicum of backbone and bring a Ukraine funding bill to the floor immediately.

In fact, it is hard to think of any U.S. foreign policy initiative since the end of the Cold War that has been more successful or more important than U.S. aid to Ukraine.

We are funding a free people fighting to preserve a liberal democracy that will be a stalwart member of the Western community for years to come.

Republicans often complain that the United States is doing the heavy lifting and our European allies aren’t doing their fair share.


The original article contains 1,096 words, the summary contains 159 words. Saved 85%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

We've provided enough support, The US's goal of weakening Russia and sending a message to China is complete. Europe can continue providing all the support they want. If US Tax player dollars are going to go to fire fighters, doctors, EMT's it should at least go to those based on US soil.

The west can not afford to let Ukraine be destroyed and taken over by Russia. It would set an incredibly dangerous precedent and it would send a certain message to all allies and everyone else that would destroy diplomatic standing of usa. The support usa gave is miniscule, mostly old weapons that they would have to pay do destroy anyway. Miniscule in regards their military budget, a budget that is huge exactly because of Russia and threats like it.

I agree, Europe can't afford it. The US has contributed way more than necessary all ready, more than all other nations combined. We are literally paying peoples salary in Ukraine now. Enough is enough, Europe can take charge of their own back yard clean up now and will have to for at least the next month because the temporary funding bill that just passed in the US eliminated any further aid.

Like I said already, it's mostly old weapons without any real value. USA has not contributed nearly enough. It was just breadcrumbs. Of course they have all the perogative to stop, but when you look at the economics of the situation, usa has no option but to continue and drastically increase funding for Ukraine. That is what is happening and will continue to happen until Ukraine is not occupied anymore and is protected enough against threats from Russia.

The aid you speak of that was supposed to be eliminated is only an aid mechanism which was never used. The aid is coming in through other channels, usually directly through congress. In reality, nothing has changed and it's likely this mechanism will also be soon reinstated to give Ukraine more options on the conditions it receives aid on.

If you want to talk numbers, I think Ukraine will need at least half of the usa military budget to win this war and more to keep the Russian hordes at bay after the war. Europe can provide some of that, but where weapons are in question, that is more of a usa thing.

If America wants to keep it's status in the world, which provides enormous diplomatic and economic benefits, they have to step up when that is needed.

I'm tired of my tax dollars going to being world police. My tax dollars should go to my community not be used to fund a war half way around the world. If Ukraine would like to BUY military equipment from us then fantastic. I also hear the Taliban have a shit ton of our military equipment they might be looking to sell. The countries in Europe should have always been the first ones to step in with aid and contribute the largest amounts.

If your claim is true that Ukraine still needs half of our military budget just to survive, then that sounds like a lost cause to me. Because they obviously can't afford that, and it's certainly not the US taxpayers job to fund it.

You may be tired, but then prepare to get completely exhausted. America is America because of its army and how that army is used. Your community is that, because of who and what americas army is. For better and for worse. Europe is how it is because of that also.

In this situation it is the job of America and the west to defend Ukraine and it is the moral imperitive for the west to stand behind them and help with whatever we can. That is the only option. The only option. If we don't do it, the consequences may be dire, but it is also the right thing to do. America should and will increase the funding. My estimates are half of the budget for one year. That money is a negligible percentage of all the money that was spent in history to bring Russia to it's knees and no American soldiers lives.

Actually, if we want to assume hurting Russia is what's best for America, then we need to trickle just enough material aid to keep Ukraine's military from complete collapse and let the whole conflict grind on for a few decades. Just like what we did for Afghanistan in the 1980's, the last thing we'd want is for Ukraine to win quickly.

I've heard this talking point before, but it's completely illogical. If you want to hurt Russia you give the other side everything they want and in great numbers and let them do whatever they want with it.

It's got a long track record of working great. It doesn't matter what they say they want or need, what matters is what is best for the US? Even though I disagree with all of the aid we already have sent, have you noticed there is no serious calls for peace from any US leader? This plan is already in action.

No and no. Best is what is best for Ukraine. There are many aspects to it not only one, of course each countries politicians have to look at it from different perspectives and wheigh the options with those in mind, but that doesn't change what matters.

I have seen non stop calls for peace for all nations and leaders in the world. In not sure what media you follow, but calls for peace have been going on since before the war, since before the occupation of crimea. I've seen leaders go to see Putin and plead for peace. Putin has 0 interest in that unless he gets everything he wants, so he can start to prepare for next invasion.

Oh it absolutely changes. US politicians need to determine what's best for the US. And recently that has been to stop funding aid to Ukraine for atleast the next month, and to now enter into a new house speaker voting battle which could take weeks resolve. And those "calls for peace" have been symbolic "please don't invade, go home". There's been no serious peace negotiations, I don't even think there's been much push from anyone for negotiations. If it's in the US's best interest to continue to harm Russia, then the trickle of aid will resume, but like I said originally I personally think that mission has been accomplished, and we can be done with it and I'm in the majority.

Again, the funding for Ukraine continues. In reality yhere is no disturbance there.

Again, calls for peace are in almost every public speech of almost every world leader, so I have no idea what the hell you are taking about. But I've seen this taking point coming from the kremlin when they are trying to self victimise.

I have no idea what mission you think America has accomplished. The war will last for some time and America has signed contracts to deliver weapons for at least the next two years. Multi year contacts have been signed with many other countries. The weapon deliveries have barely just begun. You being in majority is a big streatch after one cnn poll. What currently matters is that congress is voting 3:1 in favour of continuous help. It's unlikely that will change in the near future and even if it did, many contracts are already signed.

And again, the idea that they would limit aid to prolong the conflict is completely illogical.

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You don't pay enough in taxes to deserve a say.

I know this because to be this dumb there's no way you have a real job.

lucky for me, the US constitution says otherwise!

It really doesn't. You get a vote, but not a say.

And, statistically, your vote isn't impactful because you probably don't live somewhere where it matters.

Enjoy voting no on school levies or whatever though.

I was obviously referring to the 1st amendment, but I absolutely am fully eligible to run for any federal elected office as well!

The first amendment does not give you a voice in our government, which is clearly what I meant.

But yes you can ramble here, because who else would I make fun of when I'm between meetings at work if dumb people didn't post stupid shit on the internet?

Now, don't you have some drywall to hang?

lol, BlUe CoLlAr WoRkEr DuMb!, great strategy for the left BTW. No actually, I have a quick meeting with my accountant to go over some end of year tax prep stuff for my company, and then I think I'm going to sneek in a round of golf since it's a nice day. Not many of those left before we have to switch over to skiing season!

Ah, small-town "business owner" lol

Also it's "sneak" but you can absolutely be barely literate and "run a business," don't worry.

But yes you're correct that I see you as fundamentally lesser than I am. Its why I love paying people like you to build my deck and shit - I drink a glass of lemonade and watch you "own your business" lol

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