NPR seems to agree with this aswell. Pretty much the exact same thing I was saying yesterday and got banned from lemmy.ml for my efforts despite never even claiming it's conclusive yet, just where the available evidence seems to be pointing towards. No "leveled" hospital building and probably no 500 victims either.
Doesn't in no way excuse the other atrocities Israel has commited, but this doesn't seem to be one of those.
Lemmy.ml went full mask off after this event. They're as bad as lemmygrad and hexbear.
Yeah it's honestly not even worth opening posts about the conflict posted there.
I think in this particular case, both sides won't admit their own mistake, so instead of promoting the next theory let's wait for external and independent investigation.
BUT I WANNA BE ANGRY AND HAVE A SUPERIORITY COMPLEX ABOUT THE SIDES IN A WAR IM EXPERIENCING THROUGH A SCREEN
The fog of war is real and initial BREAKING NEWS reports should be treated with healthy skepticism until we get a clearer picture of the evidence.
There was pretty good video evidence almost immediately though. And additional video/picture evidence has come out to support it.
It's actually an interesting case because there wasn't actually much fog of war here. The confusion here is the information warfare.
Just like this should also probably be treated with skepticism... The people investigating are going to be from groups which want the narrative to be true. Israel controls the people who come in and out. The people investigating. Theyanipulate the news and the facts.
Whoever has more money and power controls the narrative in this world. It's the way it's been for decades if not centuries. The victors write history and they print the news articles before it becomes history.
Yeah but then how do they control their innate antisemitism feelings
If it weren’t anti semitism they would apologize. Instead they are now saying that it doesn’t matter because they have done it before and completely forgot about the victims they claimed to be outraged about.
I'm not anti-semitic. I love every Jewish person I've met so far. However, I am anti-zionist. Putting this up front so you can ignore everything else after...
It doesn't matter who did this attack or accident or whatever. I never had an opinion on who did it. I still don't. Why it doesn't matter though is because either side has done plenty of horrible things. For example, Israel told people to feel south, then attack the civilian convoy. Attacking a hospital would have been a particularly bad example, but it never should have been used as the primary example because there are unquestioned attacks on civilians that can be pointed at. Why does anyone need to use an unverified claim? I always thought it was stupid.
Similarly, people were sharing claims about babies being beheaded based on one person's statements. This claim still can't be backed up and Israel has said it won't investigate it. Why did anyone ever spread it except that it sounds particularly bad? There were plenty of horrible acts that weren't in question.
People just need to chill out and wait for varification for things that aren't well known before spreading them. It just makes whatever you're supporting look incompetent if it's wrong later.
Has it been confirmed that Israel were behind the explosion at the convoy? It hasn't had as much news analysing it as the hospital strike.
I don't know. I guess there's always going to be fog of war. Regardless, even before any of this current escalation, Israel had an internationally verified 23:1 kill count. There's so many events to point to that there's no need to focus on any particular one. It's important to find out who's involved, but we can't know right now, and likely will never know for many of them. That's just how war goes.
Oh that's a shame. Would be nice to have more clarity on that. I'd avoid posting claims that Israel are definitely responsible for that whilst also asking for people to verify things before spreading possible misinformation.
As you say there's enough bad to go around as it is.
Behadead babies is confirmed by numerous sources. Both the convoy and hospital have been shown to be most likely Hamas or PIJ by independent analysis. Same with 500 deaths at the hospital which analysis showed that it's unlikely to be more than a couple dozens. Tragedy and horrendous, but I don't see anyone condemning PIJ for it or calling them to stop firing rockets.
The main issue here is the burden of proof.
It seems that Hamas word is taken at face value while Israel is always considered as lying.
You either check facts, and then need to check the claims of both sides, or not. You either care about civilians and then need to care about civilians from both sides or not.
The last couple of weeks showed, at least to me, that many of the people that claim that they care about facts and civilians only do when it's for the "right" side.
No one's going to comment on "professional war crimes investigator" being a thing? His mental health professionals are going to need mental health professionals. You have to wonder how Nihilist his worldview is after 20 years.
It's what Brad Pitt was in World War Z.
So when will an official apology about this get issued? Never? Yeah, didn’t think so either.
Why would Hamas apologize? This helps them further radicalize Palestinians and their supporters abroad. Remember, Hamas has no issue using Palestinians as meat shields.
Yeah seriously. I'm not going to act like Israel is the good guy here, but there'd be zero benefit to them for attacking a hospital while the PR nightmare of such a view would be hugely beneficial to Hamas.
Official apology from... a terrorist organisation? What
A whole lot of major new organizations (looking at you, New York Times) ran headlines like "Israel destroys Gaza hospital, killing 500" without doing an ounce of independent fact checking.
Maybe this is asking for too much, but I don't think the New York Times should be blindly repeating things they hear from a literal terrorist organization (or any government involved, for that matter)
You consider the UN, that denounced Israel as the supposed attacker of this hospital a terrorist organization?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
In the immediate aftermath of the explosion at a hospital in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, Hamas — and many observers — were quick to blame Israel, which has been conducting nonstop bombing runs for days in response to recent terror attacks.
As daylight broke on Wednesday and a clearer picture of the site was revealed, US officials, experts, and analysts began to push back on the initial claims that blamed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).
As details of the incident, including videos of the munition flying past, began to surface Tuesday, some observers noted that the weapon appeared to be under power, which would be the case for rockets, but not air-dropped bombs.
As daytime photographs and videos of the scene began circulating across social media on Wednesday, some independent analysts, experts, and open-source intelligence accounts pointed out the lack of a massive crater and little structural damage to cars in the vicinity as a telling sign that an airstrike was unlikely the cause.
If Israel had struck the hospital with an air-dropped bomb, some of which are heavy 2,000-pound munitions, Garlasco said he would expect to see a larger crater somewhere between three and ten meters wide, with significant blast and fragmentation damage.
The Israeli government declared war on Hamas after the militant group staged a series of brutal terror attacks across southern Israel on October 7, killing at least 1,300 people and injuring over 4,000 others.
The original article contains 1,213 words, the summary contains 239 words. Saved 80%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Hamas fuckers probably hit their own hospital just for sympathy points
The rockets are unguided and made from sewer pipe and plant fertilizer. These things probably have a spread of a kilometer and this one was likely malfuncioning. I don't see a reason to assume they intentionally targeted the hospital. These are long range weapons anyways.
They fire off these things from civilian areas all the time. I don't see how it's so surprising to people that a shitty rocket fired out of a super dense city could fail and hit a building like a hospital.
Misfires happen all the time, but when you're shooting from within city limits the chance of one leading to tragedy is much higher.
We don't know the exact truth yet, but this seems to be a video from that night, from a geolocated position :
We see a rocket being launched, seemingly missfire and blowing up high in the sky, then two explosions, the second one being near the hospital.
The damages sure don't look like they are from a detonated military bomb, but rather the result of a weaker explosive.
What why would terrorists do that?? They live only to protect their people and would never put civilians in danger!
Which group of terrorists? Hamas or IDF? Both have a considerable civilian bodycount.
Being better equipped for defense will do that. It doesn't say anything about the intentions, just that you have more firepower
Comparing the two is so utterly deranged I'm at a loss for words.
Well go ahead and find some of those words, I'm curious to know how they're different.
Both sides are trying to do an ethnic cleansing. False flag operations don't make a lot of sense when your people are 'the chosen ones'.
I personally thought it was Israel because it sounded very much like a US JDAM but surprise surprise, the damage and death toll was extremely exaggerated by outlets which makes me think it actually was a faulty Hamas rocket on the basis it only cooked a few cars and scorched some stuff. The damage is too small to be Israel which is depressing in its own way.
Are you a both-sideser?
Oh, not at all. I support Palestine completely. While Hamas and Israel do similarly deplorable acts, I just hesitate to fully condemn Hamas as it's clear they're doing what they are out of desperation. Israel has the power to end the conflict tonight, give food and aid to innocent Palestinians, and return the land they've annexed.
But they won't.
If you want objective takes on politics, Beau of the Fifth Column is hands down the best one to watch on YouTube, he didn't break this story UNTIL there was concrete evidence because he always wants to get the story right: https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos
I think most reasonable people can admit that given the evidence, this probably wasn't committed by IDF personnel. It just has all of the calling cards associated with IDF policy against Palestine.
Put your fucking guns away around hospitals. Both of you, or I'm turning this car around.
Dud munitions don't really care and can fall out of the sky at anytime. Which is one of maaaany reasons that makes war bad.
I can't help thinking "How would this news story look different if Israel and the US were manipulating the media to cover up accidentally blowing up a hospital?" Would it look any different?
Edit: Saw the AP analysis posted after I made this comment. It's very convincing evidence in favor of the theory that the explosion originated from a failed Hamas rocket.
Would reality look different if there was an invisible, omnipotent deity pulling all the strings in such a way that his influence is impossible to detect?
Don't burden your mind in unfalsifiable theories.
Government propaganda isn't unfalsifiable. That being said, the new AP analysis has convinced me Hamas caused the explosion.
Good thing everyone jumped to conclusions
NPR seems to agree with this aswell. Pretty much the exact same thing I was saying yesterday and got banned from lemmy.ml for my efforts despite never even claiming it's conclusive yet, just where the available evidence seems to be pointing towards. No "leveled" hospital building and probably no 500 victims either.
Doesn't in no way excuse the other atrocities Israel has commited, but this doesn't seem to be one of those.
Lemmy.ml went full mask off after this event. They're as bad as lemmygrad and hexbear.
Yeah it's honestly not even worth opening posts about the conflict posted there.
Fuck leftists terrorist apologizers
The "hospital" is just a collection of small buildings clustered around a 2,000 m2 carpark. None of which were destroyed.
A lie is halfway round the world before the next lie drowns out the truth.
Lies spread faster than the truth.
I think in this particular case, both sides won't admit their own mistake, so instead of promoting the next theory let's wait for external and independent investigation.
BUT I WANNA BE ANGRY AND HAVE A SUPERIORITY COMPLEX ABOUT THE SIDES IN A WAR IM EXPERIENCING THROUGH A SCREEN
The fog of war is real and initial BREAKING NEWS reports should be treated with healthy skepticism until we get a clearer picture of the evidence.
There was pretty good video evidence almost immediately though. And additional video/picture evidence has come out to support it.
It's actually an interesting case because there wasn't actually much fog of war here. The confusion here is the information warfare.
Just like this should also probably be treated with skepticism... The people investigating are going to be from groups which want the narrative to be true. Israel controls the people who come in and out. The people investigating. Theyanipulate the news and the facts.
Whoever has more money and power controls the narrative in this world. It's the way it's been for decades if not centuries. The victors write history and they print the news articles before it becomes history.
Yeah but then how do they control their innate antisemitism feelings
If it weren’t anti semitism they would apologize. Instead they are now saying that it doesn’t matter because they have done it before and completely forgot about the victims they claimed to be outraged about.
I'm not anti-semitic. I love every Jewish person I've met so far. However, I am anti-zionist. Putting this up front so you can ignore everything else after...
It doesn't matter who did this attack or accident or whatever. I never had an opinion on who did it. I still don't. Why it doesn't matter though is because either side has done plenty of horrible things. For example, Israel told people to feel south, then attack the civilian convoy. Attacking a hospital would have been a particularly bad example, but it never should have been used as the primary example because there are unquestioned attacks on civilians that can be pointed at. Why does anyone need to use an unverified claim? I always thought it was stupid.
Similarly, people were sharing claims about babies being beheaded based on one person's statements. This claim still can't be backed up and Israel has said it won't investigate it. Why did anyone ever spread it except that it sounds particularly bad? There were plenty of horrible acts that weren't in question.
People just need to chill out and wait for varification for things that aren't well known before spreading them. It just makes whatever you're supporting look incompetent if it's wrong later.
Has it been confirmed that Israel were behind the explosion at the convoy? It hasn't had as much news analysing it as the hospital strike.
I don't know. I guess there's always going to be fog of war. Regardless, even before any of this current escalation, Israel had an internationally verified 23:1 kill count. There's so many events to point to that there's no need to focus on any particular one. It's important to find out who's involved, but we can't know right now, and likely will never know for many of them. That's just how war goes.
Oh that's a shame. Would be nice to have more clarity on that. I'd avoid posting claims that Israel are definitely responsible for that whilst also asking for people to verify things before spreading possible misinformation.
As you say there's enough bad to go around as it is.
Behadead babies is confirmed by numerous sources. Both the convoy and hospital have been shown to be most likely Hamas or PIJ by independent analysis. Same with 500 deaths at the hospital which analysis showed that it's unlikely to be more than a couple dozens. Tragedy and horrendous, but I don't see anyone condemning PIJ for it or calling them to stop firing rockets.
The main issue here is the burden of proof. It seems that Hamas word is taken at face value while Israel is always considered as lying. You either check facts, and then need to check the claims of both sides, or not. You either care about civilians and then need to care about civilians from both sides or not.
The last couple of weeks showed, at least to me, that many of the people that claim that they care about facts and civilians only do when it's for the "right" side.
No one's going to comment on "professional war crimes investigator" being a thing? His mental health professionals are going to need mental health professionals. You have to wonder how Nihilist his worldview is after 20 years.
It's what Brad Pitt was in World War Z.
So when will an official apology about this get issued? Never? Yeah, didn’t think so either.
Why would Hamas apologize? This helps them further radicalize Palestinians and their supporters abroad. Remember, Hamas has no issue using Palestinians as meat shields.
Yeah seriously. I'm not going to act like Israel is the good guy here, but there'd be zero benefit to them for attacking a hospital while the PR nightmare of such a view would be hugely beneficial to Hamas.
Official apology from... a terrorist organisation? What
A whole lot of major new organizations (looking at you, New York Times) ran headlines like "Israel destroys Gaza hospital, killing 500" without doing an ounce of independent fact checking.
Maybe this is asking for too much, but I don't think the New York Times should be blindly repeating things they hear from a literal terrorist organization (or any government involved, for that matter)
You consider the UN, that denounced Israel as the supposed attacker of this hospital a terrorist organization?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
In the immediate aftermath of the explosion at a hospital in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, Hamas — and many observers — were quick to blame Israel, which has been conducting nonstop bombing runs for days in response to recent terror attacks.
As daylight broke on Wednesday and a clearer picture of the site was revealed, US officials, experts, and analysts began to push back on the initial claims that blamed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).
As details of the incident, including videos of the munition flying past, began to surface Tuesday, some observers noted that the weapon appeared to be under power, which would be the case for rockets, but not air-dropped bombs.
As daytime photographs and videos of the scene began circulating across social media on Wednesday, some independent analysts, experts, and open-source intelligence accounts pointed out the lack of a massive crater and little structural damage to cars in the vicinity as a telling sign that an airstrike was unlikely the cause.
If Israel had struck the hospital with an air-dropped bomb, some of which are heavy 2,000-pound munitions, Garlasco said he would expect to see a larger crater somewhere between three and ten meters wide, with significant blast and fragmentation damage.
The Israeli government declared war on Hamas after the militant group staged a series of brutal terror attacks across southern Israel on October 7, killing at least 1,300 people and injuring over 4,000 others.
The original article contains 1,213 words, the summary contains 239 words. Saved 80%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Hamas fuckers probably hit their own hospital just for sympathy points
The rockets are unguided and made from sewer pipe and plant fertilizer. These things probably have a spread of a kilometer and this one was likely malfuncioning. I don't see a reason to assume they intentionally targeted the hospital. These are long range weapons anyways.
They fire off these things from civilian areas all the time. I don't see how it's so surprising to people that a shitty rocket fired out of a super dense city could fail and hit a building like a hospital.
Misfires happen all the time, but when you're shooting from within city limits the chance of one leading to tragedy is much higher.
We don't know the exact truth yet, but this seems to be a video from that night, from a geolocated position :
https://twitter.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106
We see a rocket being launched, seemingly missfire and blowing up high in the sky, then two explosions, the second one being near the hospital.
The damages sure don't look like they are from a detonated military bomb, but rather the result of a weaker explosive.
What why would terrorists do that?? They live only to protect their people and would never put civilians in danger!
Which group of terrorists? Hamas or IDF? Both have a considerable civilian bodycount.
Being better equipped for defense will do that. It doesn't say anything about the intentions, just that you have more firepower
Comparing the two is so utterly deranged I'm at a loss for words.
Well go ahead and find some of those words, I'm curious to know how they're different.
Both sides are trying to do an ethnic cleansing. False flag operations don't make a lot of sense when your people are 'the chosen ones'.
I personally thought it was Israel because it sounded very much like a US JDAM but surprise surprise, the damage and death toll was extremely exaggerated by outlets which makes me think it actually was a faulty Hamas rocket on the basis it only cooked a few cars and scorched some stuff. The damage is too small to be Israel which is depressing in its own way.
Are you a both-sideser?
Oh, not at all. I support Palestine completely. While Hamas and Israel do similarly deplorable acts, I just hesitate to fully condemn Hamas as it's clear they're doing what they are out of desperation. Israel has the power to end the conflict tonight, give food and aid to innocent Palestinians, and return the land they've annexed.
But they won't.
If you want objective takes on politics, Beau of the Fifth Column is hands down the best one to watch on YouTube, he didn't break this story UNTIL there was concrete evidence because he always wants to get the story right: https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn/videos
I think most reasonable people can admit that given the evidence, this probably wasn't committed by IDF personnel. It just has all of the calling cards associated with IDF policy against Palestine.
Put your fucking guns away around hospitals. Both of you, or I'm turning this car around.
Dud munitions don't really care and can fall out of the sky at anytime. Which is one of maaaany reasons that makes war bad.
I can't help thinking "How would this news story look different if Israel and the US were manipulating the media to cover up accidentally blowing up a hospital?" Would it look any different?
Edit: Saw the AP analysis posted after I made this comment. It's very convincing evidence in favor of the theory that the explosion originated from a failed Hamas rocket.
Would reality look different if there was an invisible, omnipotent deity pulling all the strings in such a way that his influence is impossible to detect?
Don't burden your mind in unfalsifiable theories.
Government propaganda isn't unfalsifiable. That being said, the new AP analysis has convinced me Hamas caused the explosion.