This was no accident. They want you to install apps via their walled garden snap store.
Which is by almost all means better than downloading a random crap of a package from the web because "that's how it's done on wondows". Seriously, distributing software via repositories is like second most important reason the situation with malware isn't the same on the desktop Linux market (the first being small market share). And nope, that's not because Linux is somehow "more secure", which it isn't.
Ubuntu goes full enshitification... Glad I'm back to pure Debian for a long time
Yeah man. I'm on LMDE 6 and SO glad about that. No Ubuntu BS. Just pure Debian with Mint optimizations and desktop.
I'd be very surprised if the Mint team keeps the regular mint releases going instead of just going all in on LMDE
From what I've seen they like to take things slow. However I agree that it's only a matter of time now. Ubuntu also plans to have the next distro LTS released as both a regular iso and a snap-only read-only version.
In other words two iso's will be supplied and one will be immutable and every component and library will be all snaps only. This is the future they envision for Ubuntu so Mint will definitely have to move to Debian only eventually.
I've used plain old Debian since ~2016 and only just tried LMDE this month, it's really nice! I prefer Gnome but the default LMDE desktop was perfectly usable and clear, and I really like that it walks the user through setting up automatic backups. I would definitely recommend it over Ubuntu now for new users.
For whatever reason, when i tried to fresh install lmde 6 two weeks ago, it absolutely refused to set up grub properly for me. Something in the installation just refused to work, despite reformatting and setting up partitions in both the automatic and manual configurations. Hopefully other new users have a smoother time than i did?
I’ve had that happen on EndeavourOS but it was because of a corrupted ISO. Have you checked checksums?
Was it a uefi thing? In the past 10 years the only fail-to-install issues I have had were related to that.
Try command line?
dpkg -i /path/to/package.deb
That's likely an app just not installed by default for GUI
Correct, but new users don't want to need the command line for something as simple as installing packages.
New users probably shouldn't be installing .debs, especially if they don't know about terminal commands. I've seen so many fucked up systems from people treating Linux as Windows, as in installing everything by searching for stuff on their browser, downloading an installer and installing that.
Problem is a lot of closed source software still release their software as .deb or .rpm packages that installs their repos so you can install their software from the software centre.
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Tell them to install via flatpak. Spotify, Discord and so on should be available as flatpak via Gnome Software or the KDE software center. NOW on Ubuntu, this is anyone's guess. I'm guessing there is no flatpak support by default. Ubuntu is doing the linux community a disservice.
I'm telling them that because it is a poor idea. But preferably the system should fix user mistake and behind the scenes just install Discord from repo or flatpak, with option to bypass this behaviour for those who know what they're doing.
Preferably these software vendors would know to guide users towards proper ways of installing stuff, but that's not happening.
In other words, you've seen fucked up systems because people treat their Linux system like literally every non-Linux system they've used.
Which is a Linux problem, not a user problem.
Hahah not a Linux problem at all
No, it's a user problem on both OS's.
Installing random shit from untrustworthy sources is a much more likely source of infection that a zero-day, network-based exploit, etc
Not every OS allows you to simply click on a random installer/eventually (maybe enter a password) and get owned.
IOS on phones doesn't.
Android requires you enable untrusted sources.
It sounds like not including a GUI app by default to click-install random packages (outside the package manager) is the extra step for various Linux distros. That's not a problem, that's a good idea.
Random shit
Untrustworthy
So github is untrustworthy now.
And again you're arguing in favor of walled gardens. Fucking hypocritical imbeciles. Anything to keep your precious fucking OS free from criticism, right?
Github is untrustworthy, anyone can put anything on there. It is up to the end user to determine if a project is safe to use or not.
The default repos for Debain on the other hand are filled only with software that has been checked by at least one competent person, making them inherently safe.
But I thought the open nature of open source meant it was safe because someone has checked all code everywhere!
This shit has become tedious.
This shit has become tedious
No kidding. Open source software is safe because it can come from a trusted source that can be checked by others. Not every open source project is checked but the default repos of Debian, for example, are checked and can be trusted.
All closed source software, on the other hand, is untrustworthy because it can never be checked. This goes for the iOS and Android ecosystems as well. Despite their walled gardens the software is not open and can not be checked, which is why malicious software keeps making it's way onto phones.
Have you ever heard of malicious code in the Debian repos?
Have you ever heard of malicious code in the Debian repos?
I think I heard so a few times, yes. Depends on what you define as "malicious" and which of the repos you'd call Debian repos. Is Debian only stable or is it unstable and testing or contrib or non-free aswell?
This shit has become tedious.
It always was tedious to use computers, people just get a lot of stuff abstracted away by millions of hours of manpower.
It's hardly a Linux problem that other OSs have done things in an inferior way.
The "inferior way" being precisely the kind of walled garden Linux apologist types typically shit their pants and smear in on their faces about. But it's fine because it's UBUNTU's walled garden! Can't be using anything Ubuntu doesn't allow!
A dozen incompatible distribution standards, with shit not even compiled for most of them, relying on the distro for updates that can run several versions behind because the newest version isn't compatible with THEIR ecosystem...
But App Store bad. Windows Store bad. Play Store bad.
Piss on that hypocrisy.
A walled garden doesn’t offer you the freedom to leave it. If you’re unhappy with Ubuntu, you can use a bajillion other distros and get the same software elsewhere. If you preserve your home directory and distro hop then nothing changes for you and your preferences/dot files carry over. I jumped between three distros at some point and my custom GNOME setup (extensions and all) survived through it with minor changes. Heck. Even Thunderbird kept my profile active and I never had to re-add all my email credentials from scratch.
Can you do that with Windows or MacOS?
Can you do that with Windows or MacOS?
Yes, I can in fact download programs that aren't on the Windows or Mac app stores. Are you even paying attention here?
But you can't completely switch your system with a different version managed by different people while preserving your home folder.
You can't choose the windows you get, Microsoft chooses for you
I'm sorry, are we talking about shit that users do or are we talking about masturbatory sysadmin jizzcup filler? Because it seems like you're not paying attention to the conversation, which is that Ubuntu doesn't even let users install .deb packages through the fucking package manager.
It's not hard to switch to another Linux distro. Many, like mint, even let you separate the home partition with the grafical installer too.
The issue was that those users didn't understand what they were doing and managed to mess up their systems. If you know what you're doing then installing debs like regular could be totally fine.
Well it was the users who had a problem with their systems being messed up
Yes, by the shit-tier decisions of the distro developers.
You mean their decision to allow GUI installs of debs or what do you mean? The problem was the easy install and since they can't control what is installed, the people I mentioned just installed whatever random shit not even made for the distro in question. It was a mess.
No it is not a system issue. User made an assumption and got a slap as this is not windows.
Something that worked last week now does not work.
System issue. Suck less shit at systems and maybe people in general would give a shit about Linux.
You act like problems don't happen on windows and macOS. But they do happen, and they're harder to fix than on linux most of the time.
Then again, with immutable distros, Debian, Linux Mint, and others, most of the time if something doesn't work it is because the user did something to break their system and in those cases put effort into it.
If you are a user that only uses the computer to browse the web, maybe play some games on steam, then you're unlikely to encounter any issues provided you chose the right distro (Mint would be my recommendation but I hear Fedora Silverblue works nicely). If you're the kind of user to tinker a lot then you're likely not a noob and you have no excuse for not looking up what you're doing.
If you aren't willing to learn at least the basics of how to do the stuff you want to do then probably you shouldn't do that stuff, not blame the system for doing what you told it to do.
"Provided you choose the right distro."
Yeah. Windows or MacOS if you actually want to do shit.
EDIT
Just wanted to mention, I've never had an issue with Windows or MacOS that wasn't directly caused by my own personal fuckery. Somehow though, I've had multiple Linux distro installs decide to hose themselves because they didn't update through the precious fucking package manager properly. You know, the thing that everyone is now shitting on users for not using?
The most fun one was whenever a Debian update decided that the right thing to do was move my primary drive into a subfolder in /etc. Yeah. That fucking happened.
So you're complaining that your system breaks because you're trying to use it as something that it isn't, without looking up what you're doing, and somehow that's not your fault?
If you try to use a fork as an outlet cleaner don't complain that the outlet sucks when you're getting electrocuted.
Thats also possible with appstream. But unless the repos go and people just install flatpaks, stuff like this will happen.
I thought that perhaps Ubuntu were done with screwing the community after they forced snaps on their users.
Just when I thought, ok that's it what worse could they do?, then they pull this nonsense!
They really, really don't want the user to have control of the system do they? They think we are dumb and need a walled garden experience like Apple where you only get apps from Snaps or the repo.
And frankly it's against the principles of FOSS where the foundation is to protect user freedom.
I moved to Mint when this snaps thing made me feel up. And as soon as LMDE 6 came out I immediately switched to that .
I highly recommend everyone abandon Ubuntu and Fedora - the two Corporation backed distros - and use only 100% independent distros like LMDE or Debian or any of the others.
And if you're using a distro that is Ubuntu or Fedora based pressure the dev to move to Debian or opensuse. Or any other independent base.
If we don't take action as a community eventually new users will become accustomed to this BS and will never know what it's like to use REAL Linux.
What is the problem with Fedora?
Basically it's Red Hat which is IBM. The same Red Hat that basically making it difficult for the community to make Fedora compatible server OS'.
They consider the community free loaders.
This is basically anti Libre/FOSS in spirit.
So why should we help them improve Fedora, which eventually becomes Red Hat Enterprise, if they aren't willing to share their server code?
Basically they have zero regard for the Linux community (user's and Devs)
If a website stuffed a .deb into your Downloads folder and you click on it, should the default behaviour be to run it? Is there a significant pile of Ubuntu software out there that is unavailable in the apt and snap and flatpak stores? Other stores such as Steam and Epic (Heroic) are easily installable via … starting in your apt/snap/flatpak store.
Well, that marks the first time I've seen anyone refer to it as "the apt store." Thanks, I hate it.
I'm off to download some standards docs from the ieee-shop 👨🔧 🍄
A deb is not an executable. You can't run it
And neither is a doc file, but most OSes would open up a compatible word processor.
It can install a service that will start automatically after install, so for all intents and purposes, if you click it and enter your sudo password, you might as well have run an executable.
It has pre and post-install scripts. Once you hand it off to dpkg, it can do pretty much anything.
They keep looking for trouble. Something is going to bite them in the ass one day.
Unpopular opinion, I think this should be like this if there exists a snap or a package in the repo for it. Even if this is a bug. Maybe they should make a popup educating users about how they don't need to download installers. As for apps like discord, I believe there is a well maintained snap package available to install easily from the app center. I can't seem to find chrome there sadly, but it is on flathub. I hope it gets a package.
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I don't agree with you on this, people are used to install app on other operating systems this way, there is a better way yes I'm not arguing this, but a lot of proprietary software is distributed this way and not on the snap store, and being ubuntu a noob friendly distro make it worse for the averange user to search the internet only to install deb packages instead of providing a user friendly interface!
Yup, I understand that people are going to search for an installer and install it that way. What I am saying is maybe they should direct users to the snap store or something if the package they are trying to install exists on there already. Pretty non intrusive way to make sure they are doing it the right way.
Edit: this is not me advocating for snaps btw. I don't care what package manager anyone uses, as long as its not bricking your system.
This was no accident. They want you to install apps via their walled garden snap store.
Which is by almost all means better than downloading a random crap of a package from the web because "that's how it's done on wondows". Seriously, distributing software via repositories is like second most important reason the situation with malware isn't the same on the desktop Linux market (the first being small market share). And nope, that's not because Linux is somehow "more secure", which it isn't.
Ubuntu goes full enshitification... Glad I'm back to pure Debian for a long time
Yeah man. I'm on LMDE 6 and SO glad about that. No Ubuntu BS. Just pure Debian with Mint optimizations and desktop.
I'd be very surprised if the Mint team keeps the regular mint releases going instead of just going all in on LMDE
From what I've seen they like to take things slow. However I agree that it's only a matter of time now. Ubuntu also plans to have the next distro LTS released as both a regular iso and a snap-only read-only version.
In other words two iso's will be supplied and one will be immutable and every component and library will be all snaps only. This is the future they envision for Ubuntu so Mint will definitely have to move to Debian only eventually.
I've used plain old Debian since ~2016 and only just tried LMDE this month, it's really nice! I prefer Gnome but the default LMDE desktop was perfectly usable and clear, and I really like that it walks the user through setting up automatic backups. I would definitely recommend it over Ubuntu now for new users.
For whatever reason, when i tried to fresh install lmde 6 two weeks ago, it absolutely refused to set up grub properly for me. Something in the installation just refused to work, despite reformatting and setting up partitions in both the automatic and manual configurations. Hopefully other new users have a smoother time than i did?
I’ve had that happen on EndeavourOS but it was because of a corrupted ISO. Have you checked checksums?
Was it a uefi thing? In the past 10 years the only fail-to-install issues I have had were related to that.
Try command line?
That's likely an app just not installed by default for GUI
Correct, but new users don't want to need the command line for something as simple as installing packages.
New users probably shouldn't be installing .debs, especially if they don't know about terminal commands. I've seen so many fucked up systems from people treating Linux as Windows, as in installing everything by searching for stuff on their browser, downloading an installer and installing that.
Problem is a lot of closed source software still release their software as .deb or .rpm packages that installs their repos so you can install their software from the software centre.
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Tell them to install via flatpak. Spotify, Discord and so on should be available as flatpak via Gnome Software or the KDE software center. NOW on Ubuntu, this is anyone's guess. I'm guessing there is no flatpak support by default. Ubuntu is doing the linux community a disservice.
I'm telling them that because it is a poor idea. But preferably the system should fix user mistake and behind the scenes just install Discord from repo or flatpak, with option to bypass this behaviour for those who know what they're doing.
Preferably these software vendors would know to guide users towards proper ways of installing stuff, but that's not happening.
In other words, you've seen fucked up systems because people treat their Linux system like literally every non-Linux system they've used.
Which is a Linux problem, not a user problem.
Hahah not a Linux problem at all
No, it's a user problem on both OS's. Installing random shit from untrustworthy sources is a much more likely source of infection that a zero-day, network-based exploit, etc
Not every OS allows you to simply click on a random installer/eventually (maybe enter a password) and get owned. IOS on phones doesn't. Android requires you enable untrusted sources.
It sounds like not including a GUI app by default to click-install random packages (outside the package manager) is the extra step for various Linux distros. That's not a problem, that's a good idea.
So github is untrustworthy now.
And again you're arguing in favor of walled gardens. Fucking hypocritical imbeciles. Anything to keep your precious fucking OS free from criticism, right?
Github is untrustworthy, anyone can put anything on there. It is up to the end user to determine if a project is safe to use or not.
The default repos for Debain on the other hand are filled only with software that has been checked by at least one competent person, making them inherently safe.
But I thought the open nature of open source meant it was safe because someone has checked all code everywhere!
This shit has become tedious.
No kidding. Open source software is safe because it can come from a trusted source that can be checked by others. Not every open source project is checked but the default repos of Debian, for example, are checked and can be trusted.
All closed source software, on the other hand, is untrustworthy because it can never be checked. This goes for the iOS and Android ecosystems as well. Despite their walled gardens the software is not open and can not be checked, which is why malicious software keeps making it's way onto phones.
Have you ever heard of malicious code in the Debian repos?
I think I heard so a few times, yes. Depends on what you define as "malicious" and which of the repos you'd call Debian repos. Is Debian only stable or is it unstable and testing or contrib or non-free aswell?
It always was tedious to use computers, people just get a lot of stuff abstracted away by millions of hours of manpower.
Was it ever trustworthy? What made you think that?
It's hardly a Linux problem that other OSs have done things in an inferior way.
The "inferior way" being precisely the kind of walled garden Linux apologist types typically shit their pants and smear in on their faces about. But it's fine because it's UBUNTU's walled garden! Can't be using anything Ubuntu doesn't allow!
A dozen incompatible distribution standards, with shit not even compiled for most of them, relying on the distro for updates that can run several versions behind because the newest version isn't compatible with THEIR ecosystem...
But App Store bad. Windows Store bad. Play Store bad.
Piss on that hypocrisy.
A walled garden doesn’t offer you the freedom to leave it. If you’re unhappy with Ubuntu, you can use a bajillion other distros and get the same software elsewhere. If you preserve your home directory and distro hop then nothing changes for you and your preferences/dot files carry over. I jumped between three distros at some point and my custom GNOME setup (extensions and all) survived through it with minor changes. Heck. Even Thunderbird kept my profile active and I never had to re-add all my email credentials from scratch.
Can you do that with Windows or MacOS?
Yes, I can in fact download programs that aren't on the Windows or Mac app stores. Are you even paying attention here?
But you can't completely switch your system with a different version managed by different people while preserving your home folder.
You can't choose the windows you get, Microsoft chooses for you
I'm sorry, are we talking about shit that users do or are we talking about masturbatory sysadmin jizzcup filler? Because it seems like you're not paying attention to the conversation, which is that Ubuntu doesn't even let users install .deb packages through the fucking package manager.
It's not hard to switch to another Linux distro. Many, like mint, even let you separate the home partition with the grafical installer too.
The issue was that those users didn't understand what they were doing and managed to mess up their systems. If you know what you're doing then installing debs like regular could be totally fine.
Well it was the users who had a problem with their systems being messed up
Yes, by the shit-tier decisions of the distro developers.
You mean their decision to allow GUI installs of debs or what do you mean? The problem was the easy install and since they can't control what is installed, the people I mentioned just installed whatever random shit not even made for the distro in question. It was a mess.
No it is not a system issue. User made an assumption and got a slap as this is not windows.
Something that worked last week now does not work.
System issue. Suck less shit at systems and maybe people in general would give a shit about Linux.
You act like problems don't happen on windows and macOS. But they do happen, and they're harder to fix than on linux most of the time.
Then again, with immutable distros, Debian, Linux Mint, and others, most of the time if something doesn't work it is because the user did something to break their system and in those cases put effort into it.
If you are a user that only uses the computer to browse the web, maybe play some games on steam, then you're unlikely to encounter any issues provided you chose the right distro (Mint would be my recommendation but I hear Fedora Silverblue works nicely). If you're the kind of user to tinker a lot then you're likely not a noob and you have no excuse for not looking up what you're doing.
If you aren't willing to learn at least the basics of how to do the stuff you want to do then probably you shouldn't do that stuff, not blame the system for doing what you told it to do.
"Provided you choose the right distro."
Yeah. Windows or MacOS if you actually want to do shit.
EDIT
Just wanted to mention, I've never had an issue with Windows or MacOS that wasn't directly caused by my own personal fuckery. Somehow though, I've had multiple Linux distro installs decide to hose themselves because they didn't update through the precious fucking package manager properly. You know, the thing that everyone is now shitting on users for not using?
The most fun one was whenever a Debian update decided that the right thing to do was move my primary drive into a subfolder in /etc. Yeah. That fucking happened.
So you're complaining that your system breaks because you're trying to use it as something that it isn't, without looking up what you're doing, and somehow that's not your fault?
If you try to use a fork as an outlet cleaner don't complain that the outlet sucks when you're getting electrocuted.
Thats also possible with appstream. But unless the repos go and people just install flatpaks, stuff like this will happen.
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Add a GUI desktop entry for that, assign .deb file mimetype to it, bam. A usable experience.
Or just install gdebi.
I thought that perhaps Ubuntu were done with screwing the community after they forced snaps on their users.
Just when I thought, ok that's it what worse could they do?, then they pull this nonsense!
They really, really don't want the user to have control of the system do they? They think we are dumb and need a walled garden experience like Apple where you only get apps from Snaps or the repo.
And frankly it's against the principles of FOSS where the foundation is to protect user freedom.
I moved to Mint when this snaps thing made me feel up. And as soon as LMDE 6 came out I immediately switched to that .
I highly recommend everyone abandon Ubuntu and Fedora - the two Corporation backed distros - and use only 100% independent distros like LMDE or Debian or any of the others.
And if you're using a distro that is Ubuntu or Fedora based pressure the dev to move to Debian or opensuse. Or any other independent base.
If we don't take action as a community eventually new users will become accustomed to this BS and will never know what it's like to use REAL Linux.
What is the problem with Fedora?
Basically it's Red Hat which is IBM. The same Red Hat that basically making it difficult for the community to make Fedora compatible server OS'.
They consider the community free loaders.
This is basically anti Libre/FOSS in spirit.
So why should we help them improve Fedora, which eventually becomes Red Hat Enterprise, if they aren't willing to share their server code?
Basically they have zero regard for the Linux community (user's and Devs)
If a website stuffed a .deb into your Downloads folder and you click on it, should the default behaviour be to run it? Is there a significant pile of Ubuntu software out there that is unavailable in the apt and snap and flatpak stores? Other stores such as Steam and Epic (Heroic) are easily installable via … starting in your apt/snap/flatpak store.
Well, that marks the first time I've seen anyone refer to it as "the apt store." Thanks, I hate it.
I'm off to download some standards docs from the ieee-shop 👨🔧 🍄
A deb is not an executable. You can't run it
And neither is a doc file, but most OSes would open up a compatible word processor.
It can install a service that will start automatically after install, so for all intents and purposes, if you click it and enter your sudo password, you might as well have run an executable.
It has pre and post-install scripts. Once you hand it off to dpkg, it can do pretty much anything.
They keep looking for trouble. Something is going to bite them in the ass one day.
Unpopular opinion, I think this should be like this if there exists a snap or a package in the repo for it. Even if this is a bug. Maybe they should make a popup educating users about how they don't need to download installers. As for apps like discord, I believe there is a well maintained snap package available to install easily from the app center. I can't seem to find chrome there sadly, but it is on flathub. I hope it gets a package.
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I don't agree with you on this, people are used to install app on other operating systems this way, there is a better way yes I'm not arguing this, but a lot of proprietary software is distributed this way and not on the snap store, and being ubuntu a noob friendly distro make it worse for the averange user to search the internet only to install deb packages instead of providing a user friendly interface!
Yup, I understand that people are going to search for an installer and install it that way. What I am saying is maybe they should direct users to the snap store or something if the package they are trying to install exists on there already. Pretty non intrusive way to make sure they are doing it the right way.
Edit: this is not me advocating for snaps btw. I don't care what package manager anyone uses, as long as its not bricking your system.
Local deb packages suck ime.