Doesn't mean that Israel should continue the genocide, just that Hamas sucks: which we already knew.
Until this apartheid state is dismantled the violence can't stop: both sides are bound to keep fighting with each other.
It's definitely suspicious that there are no munitions remnants available for analysis. You would think there would be something. If there is anything, independent investigators need to be given access. Otherwise, the perception of impropriety will color peoples' analyses.
But the idea this has been "concluded" doesn't seem correct either.
As stated in this article, Al Jazeera, Channel 4, and Forensic Architecture reached conclusions that the air explosion shows the rocket was intercepted and destroyed, not misfired, and there is no causal link between the air explosion and ground explosion at the hospital.
The AP analysis argued against this, but did in fact note this was a possibility. I believe the CNN and others use the same arguments and resources as preliminary OSINT analyses.
Now, GeoConfirmed and other OSINT accounts (Oliver Alexander) are backtracking from their early hypotheses and concluding the Al Jazeera claim is in fact the likely scenario, arguing that the intercepted explosion is too far away from the hospital to be connected. They still think a rocket is the "likely" cause, however.
I wonder if we will ever know what happened for sure, but there is definitely more to this story.
Will this change any Hamas supporter's mind that they are not to be trusted? No, because their minds were made up the moment they started supporting them.
Please don't confuse hamas supporters with supporters of Palestine. Two totally different things.
Of course!
Okay so who’s a Hamas supporter? Because I’ve never met anyone so far who supports them, to the point that this sounds like a strawman.
People protesting in Berlin, yelling antisemitic slurs, handing out candy to celebrate the deaths of Israelis. Those Hamas supporters. People like that are few but ubiquitous.
Funny how anyone who's suspicious of Israel's far-right, militaristic government is a "Hamas supporter".
Found suspicious by who? Dumbasses on the internet? As long as it's the not the government, I have a right to call out BB's dumbassery that sure didn't help this situation.
It's so absurd that it seems plausible to anyone that israel was the perpetrator! Nor that they had bombed hospitals and other buildings full of civilians before, or that they were dropping thousands of bombs a day on a densely populated city and it was entirely foreseeable that some would end up where they were not supposed to.
/s, necessary because of the limited capabilities of the zionists.
That hospital bombing you're referring to wasn't them. And are they the perpetrators of that Hamas attack? Fuck no, the responsibility lies squarely on Hamas' shoulders.
Yeah, it is nearly impossible to dismantle a belief system like this. Just like it is with extreme (both left and right) political beliefs.
Something something… independent UN and ICC verification… for the billionth time.
Ah, the new York times, known for its journalistic integrity, inspiring such onion headlines as
"It Is Journalism’s Sacred Duty To Endanger The Lives Of As Many Trans People As Possible"
And everyone else has failed to make a case it wasn't Israel...
You won't know that if you just read headlines, because headlines misrepresented the actual quotes in the articles....
Edit:
Yep, got a couple examples of headlines misrepresenting quotes...
Weird how many people want different requirements for Palestine and Israel
Well, it does sound like you just read the headlines...
Cool, then link me an article with a quote from a foreign government/official definitively saying it wasn't Israel, should be easy if I'm wrong. If I'm right you won't be able to.
Biden also said covid was over. I dont think it is reasonable to trust Biden.
Well, that say is in the link "appears".
Not definitive...
the good thing is its not definitive that reality exists so none of this could actually be happening anyway. If you think reality exists please provide a link proving definitively that it does.
If you want a better analogy it would be Christians insisting their religion is real without proof, but demanding proof from every other religion.
If Hamas needs to prove it wasn't them, why doesn't Israel?
For some reason holding both to equal standards isn't popular
I am unaware of anyone pointing to hamas having to prove it was not them to a greater degree than israel. If anything it was the opposite. Honestly since hamas does not have as central an authority most "proof" it was not hamas came from all over the place.
While we continue to collect information, our current assessment, based on analysis of overhead imagery, intercepts and open-source information, is that Israel is not responsible for the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday,” Watson said in a statement on Wednesday.
Not sure why you replied twice, but again, not definitive
Article offers a well balanced take with multiple viewpoints, but the main topic of concern of the article is Hamas removing the munition from the site which would have been the most definitive way to tell, presumably to prevent further investigation on that front, hence the headline.
Ultimately though I think focusing on this specific event as a rallying cry to advocate for Palestinians is a mistake. There's still a lot we don't know, and sounds like at least a good chance this was an accidental misfire from Islamic Jihad, who even admits in the article to misfires before just saying they didn't do one "this bad" before. If this event keeps getting pushed even as more evidence comes out suggesting misfire, it'll potentially distract from the thousands of other lives that Israel is clearly and demonstrably responsible for taking by making people shut out or disbelieve other claims.
And everyone else has failed to make a case it wasn’t Israel…
This is not how it works. Israel is not guilty until proven otherwise - you have to PROVE that Israel is guilty of this attack in the first place.
Exactly.
Same for Palestine.
Why do you have higher expectations of Hamas than you do of Israel?
Seems pretty conclusive.
Doesn't mean that Israel should continue the genocide, just that Hamas sucks: which we already knew.
Until this apartheid state is dismantled the violence can't stop: both sides are bound to keep fighting with each other.
It's definitely suspicious that there are no munitions remnants available for analysis. You would think there would be something. If there is anything, independent investigators need to be given access. Otherwise, the perception of impropriety will color peoples' analyses.
But the idea this has been "concluded" doesn't seem correct either.
As stated in this article, Al Jazeera, Channel 4, and Forensic Architecture reached conclusions that the air explosion shows the rocket was intercepted and destroyed, not misfired, and there is no causal link between the air explosion and ground explosion at the hospital.
The AP analysis argued against this, but did in fact note this was a possibility. I believe the CNN and others use the same arguments and resources as preliminary OSINT analyses.
Now, GeoConfirmed and other OSINT accounts (Oliver Alexander) are backtracking from their early hypotheses and concluding the Al Jazeera claim is in fact the likely scenario, arguing that the intercepted explosion is too far away from the hospital to be connected. They still think a rocket is the "likely" cause, however.
I wonder if we will ever know what happened for sure, but there is definitely more to this story.
Will this change any Hamas supporter's mind that they are not to be trusted? No, because their minds were made up the moment they started supporting them.
Please don't confuse hamas supporters with supporters of Palestine. Two totally different things.
Of course!
Okay so who’s a Hamas supporter? Because I’ve never met anyone so far who supports them, to the point that this sounds like a strawman.
People protesting in Berlin, yelling antisemitic slurs, handing out candy to celebrate the deaths of Israelis. Those Hamas supporters. People like that are few but ubiquitous.
Funny how anyone who's suspicious of Israel's far-right, militaristic government is a "Hamas supporter".
Found suspicious by who? Dumbasses on the internet? As long as it's the not the government, I have a right to call out BB's dumbassery that sure didn't help this situation.
It's so absurd that it seems plausible to anyone that israel was the perpetrator! Nor that they had bombed hospitals and other buildings full of civilians before, or that they were dropping thousands of bombs a day on a densely populated city and it was entirely foreseeable that some would end up where they were not supposed to.
/s, necessary because of the limited capabilities of the zionists.
That hospital bombing you're referring to wasn't them. And are they the perpetrators of that Hamas attack? Fuck no, the responsibility lies squarely on Hamas' shoulders.
Yeah, it is nearly impossible to dismantle a belief system like this. Just like it is with extreme (both left and right) political beliefs.
Something something… independent UN and ICC verification… for the billionth time.
Ah, the new York times, known for its journalistic integrity, inspiring such onion headlines as
"It Is Journalism’s Sacred Duty To Endanger The Lives Of As Many Trans People As Possible"
https://www.theonion.com/it-is-journalism-s-sacred-duty-to-endanger-the-lives-of-1850126997
Also well known for being on the right side of history/s https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/iraq-war-media-fail-matt-taibbi-812230/amp/
And everyone else has failed to make a case it wasn't Israel...
You won't know that if you just read headlines, because headlines misrepresented the actual quotes in the articles....
Edit:
Yep, got a couple examples of headlines misrepresenting quotes...
Weird how many people want different requirements for Palestine and Israel
Well, it does sound like you just read the headlines...
Cool, then link me an article with a quote from a foreign government/official definitively saying it wasn't Israel, should be easy if I'm wrong. If I'm right you won't be able to.
Easy peasy
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/biden-says-it-appears-israeli-military-not-responsible-for-deadly-blast-at-gaza-hospital
Biden also said covid was over. I dont think it is reasonable to trust Biden.
Well, that say is in the link "appears".
Not definitive...
the good thing is its not definitive that reality exists so none of this could actually be happening anyway. If you think reality exists please provide a link proving definitively that it does.
If you want a better analogy it would be Christians insisting their religion is real without proof, but demanding proof from every other religion.
If Hamas needs to prove it wasn't them, why doesn't Israel?
For some reason holding both to equal standards isn't popular
I am unaware of anyone pointing to hamas having to prove it was not them to a greater degree than israel. If anything it was the opposite. Honestly since hamas does not have as central an authority most "proof" it was not hamas came from all over the place.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
Not sure why you replied twice, but again, not definitive
I love the whoosh of goalposts flying by.
https://www.reuters.com/world/french-military-intelligence-says-israeli-strike-not-behind-gaza-hospital-blast-2023-10-20/
Article offers a well balanced take with multiple viewpoints, but the main topic of concern of the article is Hamas removing the munition from the site which would have been the most definitive way to tell, presumably to prevent further investigation on that front, hence the headline.
Ultimately though I think focusing on this specific event as a rallying cry to advocate for Palestinians is a mistake. There's still a lot we don't know, and sounds like at least a good chance this was an accidental misfire from Islamic Jihad, who even admits in the article to misfires before just saying they didn't do one "this bad" before. If this event keeps getting pushed even as more evidence comes out suggesting misfire, it'll potentially distract from the thousands of other lives that Israel is clearly and demonstrably responsible for taking by making people shut out or disbelieve other claims.
This is not how it works. Israel is not guilty until proven otherwise - you have to PROVE that Israel is guilty of this attack in the first place.
Exactly.
Same for Palestine.
Why do you have higher expectations of Hamas than you do of Israel?