Nikki Haley Is Mad at Joe Biden for Calling Her Out Over the Civil War

MicroWave@lemmy.world to politics @lemmy.world – 437 points – Nikki Haley Is Mad at Joe Biden for Calling Her Out Over the Civil War
vanityfair.com

The president’s speech at a South Carolina church did not go over well with the GOP candidate.

Joe Biden gave a speech in South Carolina on Monday, and Nikki Haley isn’t happy about it. Specifically, she’s not happy about the part where the president called her out for her extremely cringeworthy comments about the Civil War, saying, “Let me be clear, for those who don’t seem to know: Slavery was the cause of the Civil War.”

…

The issue of the Civil War—and her commentary on it—has come up for Haley in the past. While running for governor of South Carolina in 2010, she described the war as a matter of two sides fighting over “tradition” and “change,” adding that the Confederate flag was “not something that is racist.” She also claimed there was no reason to take the flag down from the statehouse grounds (until five years later, after the mass shooting at the Charleston church). After Haley’s gaffe in December, Jaime Harrison, the chair of the Democratic National Committee, said that her failure to mention slavery was “not stunning if you were a Black resident in SC when she was Governor.”

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Here’s the thing about the states that seceded - they drafted ordinances of secession with a declaration of causes for secession, and they all say they’re leaving the union because they want to enslave black people.

There is no debate about this. It was written down by the confederates.

Georgia’s first paragraph in their declaration of causes:

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property

Mississippi, second sentence:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.

South Carolina, first paragraph:

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.

Texas, 3rd paragraph in after babbling about dates and tranquility:

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy.

Virginia, first paragraph:

the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.

Just a note, I think secession instead of succession?

secession

Thanks. Dyslexic guy here. So I make stupid typos like this a lot. 😅

Can I ask where you found this? I want to learn where I can look this up in the future when some doofus claims a different reason for the civil war

They're readily available, if you Google any state followed by letter of secession they will pop right up.

Here's Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina', Virginia, and Texas:

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#georgia

There isn't a letter for every state, some didn't write a letter and just passed a law saying the union is dissolved or something like that.

Here also is the confederate constitution: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

I will direct your attention to this line -

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

For anyone parroting states rights nonsense. Literally banned the ability of a state to choose on whether or not to allow slavery

Not the same person but I googled "causes for secession" and clicked the first link.

First link.

Thanks, I wasn't sure how to look them up. I'm largely unfamiliar with the topic and didn't know what a "causes" meant in legalese so it flew over my head. 😅

Yes, Nikki, you’re right that it was about “tradition” and “change,” but what you’re conveniently neglecting is the fact that the tradition that these states didn’t want to change was owning slaves.

She might really enjoy how in Florida they have Prager U make books and videos on how Slavery was beneficial to the slaves for the masses to get their edumications from...

The "tradition" of the Confederacy lasted five years.

The Obama administration lasted eight years.

The Obama administration is more a part of their tradition and heritage than the Confederacy.

Also: Obama's tenure only ended because of term limits. The "tradition and heritage" of the Confederacy ended in defeat at the hand of the United States.

I've been thinking about this recently. Reagan would have had a third term. Clinton would still get elected and likely have a third term as well because the recession that got Bush Sr. would have got Reagan. There's a good chance we don't defund counter terror in the FBI and we actually catch the 9/11 terrorists. So Clinton probably stays in office until the 2008 start of the housing crisis. At this point party fatigue usually sets in so Obama would likely lose to McCain. But that's okay because he was probably the safest GOP choice in the last 50 years. Still GOP policies would have done him in by 2016, at which point Obama v Hillary plays out and we get Obama as our current president. Trump forever remains a footnote as he tried to run against McCain in 2016 and McCain obliterated Trump's ego in the way only the military can.

Goddamn it I'm already fed up with our reality, I didn't need to read about an amazing alternative history where Iraq never happened and I probably joined the military to get an education and technical training!

Instead we got Bush, and I could smell the fraudulent stink of Iraq even as a stupid 17 year old...

:P

Oh yeah. Me too. But FDR scared the oligarchs and we couldn't have that.

There’s nothing a Republican politician hates more than the facts!

Edit: also taxes and minorities

And the government, unless it's them, in which case you should swear absolute loyalty immediately.

she described the war as a matter of two sides fighting over “tradition” and “change,”

Yeah, the south was fighting to keep their tradition of owning slaves, and the north fought to change that tradition.

It amazes me how hard rightoids work to not acknowledge the plain as day fact from the documents detailing states' secession documents and the constitution of the confederacy.

adding that the Confederate flag was “not something that is racist.”

You know that this idiot that ignores that she's not white until it's convenient, would fly a Nazi flag if they gave her enough money and power and claim the exact same thing for the Nazi flag.

Isn't it weird how the right always like to deny what we all know, and that is that the Southern Strategy is a real thing, and/or pull out that old chestnut about Robert Byrd and how democraTs aRe thE Real Ku Klux KlaN, but if you pull down a few statues of racist traitors (or even threaten to), or remove the flag of the racist losers, they start getting all teary-eyed about "heritage" and "preserving history"?

Ahh yes our long lasting heritage of... (checks notes) 4 years... Yes. I too have fond memories of my highschool heritage. I'm I using that correctly?

The Confederate flag isn't even a flag, it's a war banner.

Actually, the cross-form of the confederate flag is a battle flag. (the actual confederate flag was too similar to the US star's and stripes flag for identifying forces.)

So flying it is technically identifying yourself as an enemy of the US.

Battle flag, war banner, same difference.

Although I'm sure CGPGrey would chew me out just as much if not more than you have.

just making the point that, as a battle flag, flying it is literally identifying yourself as a member of armed services of an enemy of the US. That was always it's purpose, and outside of reenactments... we should probably be inclined to treat them as such.

When the flag is carried into the capital building during election proceedings with the intent of of overturning an election, we should probably consider the hostilities actively renewed... (or, you know, just lock the fuckers up. that works.)

just as flying the Jack of the United States or the Ensign (which for the US is the US national flag,) identifies a ship as a ship of the US (USN, coast guard, Sealift command... NOAA).

Correction it's a Southern Surrender Flag now

Correction it’s a Southern Surrender Flag now

Oh no, the surrender flag is way more delicious.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/confederate-dish-towel-appomattox-surrender-flag

Behold, the final flag of the US Confederacy:

That's paywalled This link is not: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/nmah_515980

I'd just about forgotten my paywall bypassing browser extension but this is the second time recently I've accidentally posted paywalled content because it didn't appear to be paywalled to me.

Thanks for the secondary link. Really the pic is enough though. 😁

No problem. I had never heard about it before so I appreciate you telling us about it.

Technically, the same could be said for the American flag.

America lost wars but never surrendered their flags and banners in a total defeat

1 more...

She should be ecstatic anyone is noticing her at all.

She's actually second to Trump. Way behind, I know, but still second.

adding that the Confederate flag was “not something that is racist.”

"The Confederate flag was simply the primary symbol of the Confederacy, a movement primarily driven by the desire to maintain the brutal institutional slavery in the USA. That doesn't mean the flag itself was racist. The flag itself is no more racist than KKK hoods, Jim Crow laws, or Redlining in regard to financing for black prospective homeowners." - Haley probably

Yeah, but until relatively recently, white folk didn't think that way. At all. For young people back in the day, it was, "Yee haw! I'm a rebel!" For most, it was merely a symbol of the South, not of the Confederacy or slavery or any other such bullshit. We thought nothing of it, if we thought about it at all.

Somewhere along the line it evolved into a racist dog whistle. And that's fucking sad. I flew one back in college, now I won't do business with a place selling Confederate paraphernalia.

The whole controversy kinda caught us off guard. I never once heard anyone complain about the Confederate flag, call it racist. In the 80's or 90's, I can imagine asking my few black friends and coworkers what they thought of it, and I imagine they would simply say, "Man, no one gives a shit about that hillbilly crap!"

Later, people pitched a fit, on both sides. And these were sides that seemingly hadn't existed the month before!

Some, like me, took a moment to reflect on how it might make black folks feel, thought about how the symbol had changed over the decades. Well, times and symbols change. Judging the past through a younger, more modern lens, might mislead a bit. See how that goes both ways?

Same goes for the American flag. Dad was a Torpedoman, 3rd Class, in the Pacific Theater. Jesus, the shit that ship was involved in... Anyway, we only brought the flag out on appropriate holidays, and while he didn't sit me down and teach me the US Flag Code, he got the points across. Now it's basically a symbol of right-wing nuts. Think on that. I won't fly an American flag on the 4th of July. Imagine explaining that to my father.

tl;dr: Sharing my experiences in the hope of sharing understanding. LOL, like that'll happen.

Yeah, but until relatively recently, white folk didn’t think that way. At all. For young people back in the day, it was, “Yee haw! I’m a rebel!” For most, it was merely a symbol of the South, not of the Confederacy or slavery or any other such bullshit. We thought nothing of it, if we thought about it at all.

I didn't downvote you, but you're speaking of your particular upbringing and experience. Your experience wasn't that of all white people. Mine was different.

I liked watching the TV show Dukes of Hazzard when I was a child in the early 1980s. I wanted a toy General Lee car. Similar to the picture below:

My parents explained who General Lee was, and what the Confederate flag on the roof of the car meant. I was too young to understand all of the implications, but I clearly got the idea that black people found the Confederate flag offensive because it represented slavery. I had black friends in school and at church. The thought of me owning a toy that would made them feel bad embarrassed me.

I asked if there was anything offensive about the KITT car from Knight Rider. I was happy to find out there wasn't and got that one instead.

I think the dukes of hazard is a nice example, and would add Lynyrd Skynyrd as well.

Not everyone was fortunate to learn the full story about the Confederacy when growing up and, as the poster above you wrote, for a lot of people it was a rebelious symbol of the South. Which is the context why both the creators of DoH and Lynyrd Skynyrd used to identify with it.

We're growing further and further away from it, but there were families where great-gramps fought on the wrong side. Not because he was the Supreme Racist but because he happened to be born there at the wrong time. Those people grew up with a very different view of that flag than the one we have today.

So with that context, I personally have no problem playing with a car from DoH. I even enjoy watching a vid from an old live performance from Lynyrd Skynyrd more because I know how that flag got there and what it meant for them at that time. The band didn't believe or wanted to promote that black people should be slaves. It's part of innocent folklore understood by those who were there in that place and time. But alas, the nuance will fade away with time, and the images will remain.

Which is the context why both the creators of DoH and Lynyrd Skynyrd used to identify with it.

Although I agree with you that the use of the confederate flag back in the day isn't necessarily proof that people doing so were dyed-in-the-wool racists, I think it's an overstatement to say with such confidence that their use was something other than that. As a Southerner myself, I'm well aware of the vast difference in scope between what some folks (especially older folks) think counts as racism and what it actually is in objective reality.

Somewhere along the line it evolved into a racist dog whistle.

Yeah, it's super easy to how it's a symbol of racism by how hard the racists defend it. Most people that had any affinity for it simply let it go when they realized it hurt people. So now the hatred under the banner is, in quite a real sense, distilled.

Lol I see someone downvoted you for giving your honest pov

After the civil war ended it's important that the North chose to rehabilitate the South as opposed to, well, killing them all. Part of this was forgiving them for seceding and fighting. And their flag was put in the bracket of folklore rather than that of the nazi symbols etc. Which explains people from the South continuing to use it as you describe : "proud to be a hillbilly!"

Over the last couple decades, however, the stench of its origin has gotten harder, with a positive feedback loop because those clinging to it only do so not because of some rebelious folklore but because they honestly believe the Confederacy was right in their white supremacy bs

And as you very poignantly add, the same is starting to happen with the stars and stripes as people are starting to realise 'patriotism' is mostly a cover for nationalism

But they gave their honest pov as a representation of white people in general.

Yeah, but until relatively recently, white folk didn’t think that way. At all.

Edit: Also, to be clear, what we currently call the "confederate flag" wasn't associated with the entire rebellion. It was the battle flag of a specific army, the Army of Northern Virginia. It was mostly moved to irrelevance by everyone other than confederate apologists until the civil rights era when old-school racists started to put a bunch of confederate statues up everywhere and promoting the flag as a symbol in an attempt to frighten Black people fighting for their rights.

Even before World War II, cracks were evident in the foundation of the flag’s status as a symbol of heritage. Occasional northern and African-American voices questioned the wisdom of displaying a flag they associated with disunity or treason. And young white southerners began using the flag in distinctly non-memorial ways as a symbol of regional identity.

The growing battle over the post-Reconstruction South’s established racial order of Jim Crow segregation resurrected the Confederate flag’s use as a political symbol.

Supporters of the States Right Party (aka the Dixiecrats) in 1948 embraced the flag as a symbol of support for segregation. Although the Dixiecrats emphasized Constitutional principal, “states rights” in the 1940s and 1950s translated, as it had in the 1860s, into the purposeful denial of fundamental human and civil rights for African Americans.

The explicit use of the Confederate flag as a symbol of segregation became more widespread and more violent after the U.S. Supreme Court’s Brown v. Board of Education decision. Southern states resisting federally-mandated integration incorporated the flag into their official symbolism.

link

the same is starting to happen with the stars and stripes as people are starting to realise ‘patriotism’ is mostly a cover for nationalism

I say, f that noise. Reclaim that flag for us. Don't let the bastards take that from us. Let people know what actual patriotism means.

I'm surprised and sorry to hear this. We have had a similar issue up north from you. The Rona idiots in our country have taken our flag on as their symbol of being an idiot.

We would only really flag ours on Canada day or for sporting events. Now they drive around with it on their cars windows and out the back of their trucks like our American cousins. Usually they will add a Fck Trudeau flag to the mix. I now no longer want to fly it due to a minority that have ruined it for now