Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV? No one in the US is buying your affordable EV because you only sell them in Europe!
Yeah, a surprising number of people don't want these hyper complex cars with thousands of microchips and millions of lines of code operating them. Give me an electric 2012 Honda fit/Toyota matrix equivalent that just fucking works and costs $20k or less new.
Yes please. I want my car to work without tracking and software updates.
Keep dreaming.
I’m just refusing to buy a car newer than 2008. Really an arbitrary cutoff, but that seems to be about when every car started to get as many electronics into them as possible.
Yeah, I don't care about color changing LEDs in the trim or talking computers, just give me a cheap android-auto-compatible head unit (replaceable please, none of that integrated bullshit), a cheap instrument cluster and a real handbrake.
An EV at that price was always unrealistic the battery is 75% that cost. But an ICE under 20 is easy. People just want nicer shit when they see the vehicles or have to head to Mitsubishi.
Everyone's super obsessed with 300-400 mi ranges though. 100mi would be totally fine for most people and would require a small fraction of the battery (bigger batteries give decreasing returns)
Until it's not, and then it's an expensive pain. I travel 500 + 700 miles three times a year and renting a car for a week isn't viable. There are enough edge cases just like that for most people.
Nobody wants to stop for 25 minutes (if you are lucky and don't have to wait in queue) on their longer trips.
The actual solution you agree looking for is PHEV. That's the middle ground that's perfect for most individuals.
The phev f150 is the most functional auto/tool for travel and work I've ever seen.
It’s the batteries. They are the biggest cost in an EV. The margins on such a car would be too low. Even the new Volvo XC30 is 35k plus which is one of the cheapest and most barebones EV.
But Volvos have never been cheap. Also big and heavy forever.
Make an eFit for $15 - 20k and sell a bazillion of them.
Good luck finding enough batteries for that many cars. That’s the entire problem right now. They can’t scale the production to the point that will make the production of econobox EVs reasonably profitable. Because the worldwide production capacity of lithium batteries is lagging behind the demand right now. Also why the cost of the batteries are high.
Well the answer is right there - smaller cars, smaller packs. Can power 2 or 3 fit sized EV's for every lightning F150 pack.
Got exactly that with a VW e up.
You know that the e up was cancelled by VW?
Yes
I currently lease a 2 years old Renault Zoe (very compact car) for 200€ a month (0€ upfront). It was a special deal in Germany for a few months. I charge at home with solar panels and rarely drive more than the 300-350km range.
It honestly feels like the holy grail of electro mobility.
And if you had an ICE car you would be spending around that 200 just on fuel, as it is with both my kids and their baby EVs, its like having a free car.
There’s no margins there. Just like in real estate, the best margins are at the high end. They won’t make affordable cars while they can make more money on expensive ones.
Other companies can, but the big ones can't? Yeah, no. I don't buy that for a second.
Like who do you mean when you say other companies?
BYD seem to be making good.
Isn’t that a Chinese company? They can probably get the batteries for cheaper than non-Chinese companies. Batteries are the biggest cost in a econo EV
Because people are buying all the mid- and high-end EVs. If it's more profitable, there's some sense to it until that saturates (although it sounds like that's finally happening maybe)
GM tried real hard for the lower-end. And cars like the Bolt EUV ended up actually really good especially for the price. Then they cancelled it because they just weren't making enough money or volume or scaling like they wanted.
And at the moment ALL the carmakers have gone kinda nuts with pricing. And sales are still super strong overall. Just...softening. Apparently especially for EVs.
Also, people are paying way, way too much for cars. It's insane how many people making $60,000 a year or less are buying cars worth almost that much, and taking out these ridiculous loans. I guess the interest rate hikes are putting a little damper on it, but it's been just stupid.
The Bolt EUV is the only reason we have an electric car now (personally, I would have gotten the smaller and cheaper Bolt but it was a family decision to go with the EUV). It was reasonable for what you get. The only downside is the slower charging compared to other EVs but I don't plan on taking it for longer trips. We have an ICE for that.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV?
Because car manufacturers don't give two shits what people need, nor what's best for the environment, they're in the profit making business, and that's all that matters.
We're at the point now where this shouldn't need to be pointed out, the fact it does goes to show just how successful (from their viewpoint of course) their propaganda is..
This. It's even worse in Australia. The only affordable ev is a Tesla 3 @ 55k AUD. Which even then is out of reach of most.
Why not make a 30k EV? Penetrate the majority of consumers.
I'm on a great wage and even I shake my head at 80-120k range of most EVs here. Then you get bwm releasing 180k+ EVs.. who exactly is buying them?
When you price a technology out of the reach of people, the tech isn't the failure.
You can buy a BYd Dolphin for $38k ($24kusd) mate.
I went for a hoon in a BYD the other day, it was awesome fun. Not the dolphin, the other A*.* one that's everywhere.
I believe they're a cheap EV but it has all the bells and whistles, goes like the clappers, can do cool stuff like start the AC remotely so by the time you walk from work to your carpark it's nice and comfortable, gets 450ish on a charge and can be topped up overnight on a standard power point for most people's commute.
I'm so keen to own an EV, all I need is a justification... Right now I have a work vehicle that carries a tonne (literally) at all times which makes an EV less appealing.
Because batteries are expensive. So by default you're targeting a luxury price, whether it's luxury sports car or a luxury SUV.
Electric cars make zero sense for the less well off. No one wants to go and sit some where for 45 minutes for 80% of a charge when they can go tonangas station and fully gas up a car in less than Five minutes. Also that is if there isn't a line to one of the few public charging. Imagine working a shit job for 40k a year and then having to go and sit and wait for wven an hour to get to charge your car that then takes an hour to charge it self
Imagine working 40 hours a week and having to breathe gas fumes while you bike to work because your homeowners insurance doubled and now you can’t afford your ICE car.
No one thinks the transition to electric will be fun but it’s necessary because we waited 30 years to even acknowledge climate change. If you want to drive an ICE, you should have to pay for the destruction you’re causing so we can subsidize public transport. But failing that, EVs are the bare minimum.
Check your watch - it's been 50 fucking years. At least.
I guess you are walking around with your phone until it dies, charge it for 5mins and then repeat? ... or do you just plug it in over night or when you are not using it?
That's really not a good point you are bringing up here. You could critisize, that there are only few public charging stations (with user friendly terms) or what the comment you answered to is critisizing or even that there are so few alternatives for (really) climate friendly transport, but your point is just 'what if I am not able to think at all??'
I think the assumption in Pasta4u's scenario is that home charging overnight is not an option.
As is the case for the majority of people, especially people living in cities
If you own your own home with off street parking, this is established and known technology. Still kind of expensive, but for example, I just got a new circuit for a charger, for less than a new circuit for an induction range.
The place we need to put the most effort into is rental places or HOAs with off street parking. We have the technology, we know how to do it, but there’s a mismatch between who pays and who benefits. It’s a people problem. If the landlord/HOA pays, how can we help them see the benefit so they’ll be willing to? Eventually this will solve itself when EVs become popular enough that people will be unwilling to rent or live there, but now it’s an obstacle. A purely human obstacle
The less well of typically do bot own thier own homes.
More to the point people who rent in apartment complexes or own condos can't just have a new breaker put in at thier condo or apartment complex. Some places have large parking lots and would require a lot of work to wire all the spaces woth thier own chargers. Also while it's simple for you to get a 240v breaker put into your electrical box, what about an apartment complex that has a 100 cars ? It can require expensive work to support that much power drain and most people will commute during the day. That means all the load will happen after 6pm and before 9am.
Also in the mean time what do you do of you don't own your own home? Buy an ev and hope the complex you are renting at will put in a charger or two ? What about all the hoa fighting adding chargers and so on.
Like I saod this will affect the less well off.
Yes, you are right. It only makes sense if you jave the option to charge at home, at your work or similar.
Anyway, I'm happy I don't have to think about this kind of shit. I get on my bike and just drive, if something is broken, it's usually a $15 fix I can do by myself in an hour.
Make. An. Affordable. Car.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV? No one in the US is buying your affordable EV because you only sell them in Europe!
Yeah, a surprising number of people don't want these hyper complex cars with thousands of microchips and millions of lines of code operating them. Give me an electric 2012 Honda fit/Toyota matrix equivalent that just fucking works and costs $20k or less new.
Yes please. I want my car to work without tracking and software updates.
Keep dreaming.
I’m just refusing to buy a car newer than 2008. Really an arbitrary cutoff, but that seems to be about when every car started to get as many electronics into them as possible.
Yeah, I don't care about color changing LEDs in the trim or talking computers, just give me a cheap android-auto-compatible head unit (replaceable please, none of that integrated bullshit), a cheap instrument cluster and a real handbrake.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/best-new-cars-under-20000
An EV at that price was always unrealistic the battery is 75% that cost. But an ICE under 20 is easy. People just want nicer shit when they see the vehicles or have to head to Mitsubishi.
Everyone's super obsessed with 300-400 mi ranges though. 100mi would be totally fine for most people and would require a small fraction of the battery (bigger batteries give decreasing returns)
Until it's not, and then it's an expensive pain. I travel 500 + 700 miles three times a year and renting a car for a week isn't viable. There are enough edge cases just like that for most people.
Nobody wants to stop for 25 minutes (if you are lucky and don't have to wait in queue) on their longer trips.
The actual solution you agree looking for is PHEV. That's the middle ground that's perfect for most individuals.
The phev f150 is the most functional auto/tool for travel and work I've ever seen.
It’s the batteries. They are the biggest cost in an EV. The margins on such a car would be too low. Even the new Volvo XC30 is 35k plus which is one of the cheapest and most barebones EV.
But Volvos have never been cheap. Also big and heavy forever.
Make an eFit for $15 - 20k and sell a bazillion of them.
Good luck finding enough batteries for that many cars. That’s the entire problem right now. They can’t scale the production to the point that will make the production of econobox EVs reasonably profitable. Because the worldwide production capacity of lithium batteries is lagging behind the demand right now. Also why the cost of the batteries are high.
Well the answer is right there - smaller cars, smaller packs. Can power 2 or 3 fit sized EV's for every lightning F150 pack.
Got exactly that with a VW e up.
You know that the e up was cancelled by VW?
Yes
I currently lease a 2 years old Renault Zoe (very compact car) for 200€ a month (0€ upfront). It was a special deal in Germany for a few months. I charge at home with solar panels and rarely drive more than the 300-350km range.
It honestly feels like the holy grail of electro mobility.
And if you had an ICE car you would be spending around that 200 just on fuel, as it is with both my kids and their baby EVs, its like having a free car.
There’s no margins there. Just like in real estate, the best margins are at the high end. They won’t make affordable cars while they can make more money on expensive ones.
Other companies can, but the big ones can't? Yeah, no. I don't buy that for a second.
Like who do you mean when you say other companies?
BYD seem to be making good.
Isn’t that a Chinese company? They can probably get the batteries for cheaper than non-Chinese companies. Batteries are the biggest cost in a econo EV
Because people are buying all the mid- and high-end EVs. If it's more profitable, there's some sense to it until that saturates (although it sounds like that's finally happening maybe)
GM tried real hard for the lower-end. And cars like the Bolt EUV ended up actually really good especially for the price. Then they cancelled it because they just weren't making enough money or volume or scaling like they wanted.
And at the moment ALL the carmakers have gone kinda nuts with pricing. And sales are still super strong overall. Just...softening. Apparently especially for EVs.
Also, people are paying way, way too much for cars. It's insane how many people making $60,000 a year or less are buying cars worth almost that much, and taking out these ridiculous loans. I guess the interest rate hikes are putting a little damper on it, but it's been just stupid.
The Bolt EUV is the only reason we have an electric car now (personally, I would have gotten the smaller and cheaper Bolt but it was a family decision to go with the EUV). It was reasonable for what you get. The only downside is the slower charging compared to other EVs but I don't plan on taking it for longer trips. We have an ICE for that.
Because car manufacturers don't give two shits what people need, nor what's best for the environment, they're in the profit making business, and that's all that matters.
We're at the point now where this shouldn't need to be pointed out, the fact it does goes to show just how successful (from their viewpoint of course) their propaganda is..
This. It's even worse in Australia. The only affordable ev is a Tesla 3 @ 55k AUD. Which even then is out of reach of most.
Why not make a 30k EV? Penetrate the majority of consumers.
I'm on a great wage and even I shake my head at 80-120k range of most EVs here. Then you get bwm releasing 180k+ EVs.. who exactly is buying them?
When you price a technology out of the reach of people, the tech isn't the failure.
You can buy a BYd Dolphin for $38k ($24kusd) mate.
https://bydautomotive.com.au/configurator/byd-dolphin?ref=website
I went for a hoon in a BYD the other day, it was awesome fun. Not the dolphin, the other A*.* one that's everywhere.
I believe they're a cheap EV but it has all the bells and whistles, goes like the clappers, can do cool stuff like start the AC remotely so by the time you walk from work to your carpark it's nice and comfortable, gets 450ish on a charge and can be topped up overnight on a standard power point for most people's commute.
I'm so keen to own an EV, all I need is a justification... Right now I have a work vehicle that carries a tonne (literally) at all times which makes an EV less appealing.
Because batteries are expensive. So by default you're targeting a luxury price, whether it's luxury sports car or a luxury SUV.
Electric cars make zero sense for the less well off. No one wants to go and sit some where for 45 minutes for 80% of a charge when they can go tonangas station and fully gas up a car in less than Five minutes. Also that is if there isn't a line to one of the few public charging. Imagine working a shit job for 40k a year and then having to go and sit and wait for wven an hour to get to charge your car that then takes an hour to charge it self
Imagine working 40 hours a week and having to breathe gas fumes while you bike to work because your homeowners insurance doubled and now you can’t afford your ICE car.
No one thinks the transition to electric will be fun but it’s necessary because we waited 30 years to even acknowledge climate change. If you want to drive an ICE, you should have to pay for the destruction you’re causing so we can subsidize public transport. But failing that, EVs are the bare minimum.
Check your watch - it's been 50 fucking years. At least.
I guess you are walking around with your phone until it dies, charge it for 5mins and then repeat? ... or do you just plug it in over night or when you are not using it? That's really not a good point you are bringing up here. You could critisize, that there are only few public charging stations (with user friendly terms) or what the comment you answered to is critisizing or even that there are so few alternatives for (really) climate friendly transport, but your point is just 'what if I am not able to think at all??'
I think the assumption in Pasta4u's scenario is that home charging overnight is not an option.
As is the case for the majority of people, especially people living in cities
If you own your own home with off street parking, this is established and known technology. Still kind of expensive, but for example, I just got a new circuit for a charger, for less than a new circuit for an induction range.
The place we need to put the most effort into is rental places or HOAs with off street parking. We have the technology, we know how to do it, but there’s a mismatch between who pays and who benefits. It’s a people problem. If the landlord/HOA pays, how can we help them see the benefit so they’ll be willing to? Eventually this will solve itself when EVs become popular enough that people will be unwilling to rent or live there, but now it’s an obstacle. A purely human obstacle
The less well of typically do bot own thier own homes.
More to the point people who rent in apartment complexes or own condos can't just have a new breaker put in at thier condo or apartment complex. Some places have large parking lots and would require a lot of work to wire all the spaces woth thier own chargers. Also while it's simple for you to get a 240v breaker put into your electrical box, what about an apartment complex that has a 100 cars ? It can require expensive work to support that much power drain and most people will commute during the day. That means all the load will happen after 6pm and before 9am.
Also in the mean time what do you do of you don't own your own home? Buy an ev and hope the complex you are renting at will put in a charger or two ? What about all the hoa fighting adding chargers and so on.
Like I saod this will affect the less well off.
Yes, you are right. It only makes sense if you jave the option to charge at home, at your work or similar. Anyway, I'm happy I don't have to think about this kind of shit. I get on my bike and just drive, if something is broken, it's usually a $15 fix I can do by myself in an hour.